[Deck] Armageddon Stax

[Nihil Credo]

Well, according to my logic Elspeth sucks, so you can also simply conclude I'm right

I disagree with your analysis. I haven't yet played with it, but I've gotten the chance to play against it, and while I won't swear on the card it certainly fits in the Stax gameplan - which, I'll remind everyone, is "make it impossibly expensive for your opponent to deal damage to you".

What she is, essentially, is a 2WW Maze of Ith / Kor Haven, with a few other minor abilities (supporting Smokie, lowering your clock [with either ability], plus the ultimate). For the same reasons that Maze of Ith effects fit in Stax, so does Elspeth. "Fits" isn't "belongs", but it's a precondition for it.

[Brehn]

Skeggi: You're talking about logic while just regarding Elspeth's first ability as a Smokestack enabler? Not even mentioning chumpblocking? I won't buy that.

[Mordel]

I don't really know about Elspeth being strictly worse than angel because functionally, they are similar: Both essentially swing for four and fly(not terribly useful, but okay), both basically cost four and one is an additional way to feed a stack. I don't really see anything wrong with another way to feed a stack/chump blocker a turn myself. She also soaks up five damage instead of me if my opponent doesn't like the looks of her.

In the end: I'm testing her because I am uncertain. I prefer angel so far, but I felt Elspeth was worth a shot because there have been a few times that crucible hasn't shown up when I had a smoker burning out of desperation and Elspeth would have been a far nicer topdeck than an angel if only for the fact that Elsp would give me another turn to draw what I need.

[_erbs_]

Hello,
I'll give my exprience on Elspeth since i've been using her over exalted angel since SoA came out. I'll not post my entire deck list but my condition cards are:
2 Elspeth
4 Magus of Tabernacle
4 Mishara's Factory

By the way i only run 3 crusible of worlds and 3 smokestack on my deck. On to Elspeth, in all my times testing her the best ability i like from her is that she draws attention to your opponent instead they are hitting you (like what i've posted above and so to others that have tested her) shes is there main target and against non burn opponents she's kinda hard to handle in my deck i don't find it hard to cast double whites, i seldom used her last ability but during the times shes drawing attention from your opponent it gives you time to draw something that could help a disadvatangous position.

Like what others have posted above she is more of a utility card over a win more or win condition card.

Here is where an angel will get an edge over her (exalted / battlegrace), in situations in where your oppoent could pay your tabernacle, ghostly prision and you haven't drawn any oblivion ring it happens even when you've bored in 3 to 4 cards and has a flyer it would spell doom for you, a single birds of paradise equipped with sofi or jitte on it is a pain.

I've also tried battlegrace angel she has up and downs she shines in situations in where you have a crusible in play and 2-3 mishara's in play you'll never run out of life while recycling your mishra via crusible and could hold off your opponents flyers cause when your opponents flyers swing you could block it or let it through and just swing back afterwards with her at 5/5 with lifelink again the damage done by your opponent is nullified with lifelink.


_______________________________________________________________


With regards to SB im also having a hard time completing my SB list the current list i have right now are:

4 tormod's crypt
3 pithing needle
3 defense grid
3 aura of silence
2 ??

Cards that im considering are
sphere of law, powder keg, suppression field, karmic justice & story circle

The problems ive encoured so far in this deck are:
- Pro White Critters
- Gaddock Teeg
- Direct Burn
- Early Combo / Disruption from your opponent (meaning no CotV or Trini drawn on your 1st to 3rd turns to slow your opponents)


Hoping to hear some suggestions on my SB problem

Thanks

[Nihil Credo]

By the way i only run 3 crusible of worlds

*banghead*

(which is not the same as *headbang*)


I've written it elsewhere in this thread, and you can ask other people to back me up on this: you must run 4 Crucible of Worlds in Stax, period. I am as confident on this number as on any other I have ever written.

It's redundant in multiples, yes (other than as a Smokestack sacrifice). It's also the glue that makes Stax a deck worth playing, and one of the two sources of significant card advantage you run (the other being Chalice).

Without Crucible, your cards have to show up in a specific way in order not to shit on each other. With Crucible, you have a deck full of high-quality cocaine powder ready to be snorted from 20-year-old Kylie Minogue's ass. Play fucking four.

[Mordel]

[B]*banghead*
With Crucible, you have a deck full of high-quality cocaine powder ready to be snorted from 20-year-old Kylie Minogue's ass. Play fucking four.

Dude, that is sig-worthy. In fact: sig'd.

I guess the battle for Elspeth rages on...oh another note: I absolutely do not see any merit in battlegrace. There is said situation with sending a factory in over and over, but that is about it.

It costs more and only has spirit link on the swing. Pass.

[Skeggi]

Skeggi: You're talking about logic while just regarding Elspeth's first ability as a Smokestack enabler? Not even mentioning chumpblocking? I won't buy that.

There are alot of valid points why Elspeth would be viable in Stax, I know. But on every point there's a card that's simply better. If you want to keep your Smokestack@2 or higher, the following cards are better than Elspeth:

• Flagstones of Trokair, but you probably already have 3 or 4 of these in your deck.
• Gods' Eye, Gate to the Reikai, but this takes a land drop, just like Flagstones.
• Mobilization
• Sacred Mesa
• Kjeldoran Outpost, uncounterable and slight synergy with Crucible.
• Caribou Range, okay, I'll admit, this one is flatout worse than Elspeth.
• Spirit Mirror

If you want a beatstick you should use:

• Exalted Angel
• Battlegrace Angel

Although I don't believe this deck needs a beatstick. As I've pointed out, the third ability isn't that good either. I understand Elspeth is more versatile than the cards I named, because she can either keep Smokestack up or beat face; but she also gets beat herself. Prison doesn't protect her and the optional army of tokens isn't synergistic with Tabernacle effects.

By all means, keep on testing her and prove me wrong. I just think Stax is alot more stable without her. If you want an extra Smokestack feeder that doesn't require a landdrop, I recommend Kjeldoran Outpost (although this doesn't make you happy in a Wasteland infested meta).

[Mordel]

lol, Caribou Range...I used to love that card when I was a kid and I opened the pack of ice age that came with a duelist or something: "holy shit caribou! AWESOME". If I could somehow run that card...and it was playable, I so would, dude!

I am pretty much neutral on Elspeth, so please just entertain me with reasoning as to how spirit mirror is better than Elspeth. Mobilization is somewhat troublesome with the cost, but one white mana requirement...okay, I get it, but spirit mirror can't do the evasive swing even though it isn't necessarily needed and is other than that, nearly identical, excluding the singing at planeswalkers directly has...which is what I think you are getting at. I am pretty much going to write-off the other suggestions because they basically require a crucible to be effective. The universal (and laughable in many ways) metagame I have is the internet and it is pretty wasteland happy, so outpost gets thumbs down from me.

I just want an explanation for spirit mirror besides a 2/2 each turn that needs a grip or something like that, which is unlikely because it is a fucking spirit mirror...who the fuck is going to waste a grip on a spirit mirror when a stack is on the table?

Needless to say, I think the lack of the threat to the opponent made by the ability to have a 4/4 flyer swinging at them every turn that is basically only slowed down by removal is worth a look. Some opponents don't really know stax as well as we might think and they will fuck up their priority of killing you by equating it with killing the planewalker by diverting five damage to it. While this is not a consistently favourable scenario, over a quarter of my life staying is pretty nice. I never had visions of an army of 1/1's when I decided to try Elspeth for the hell of it because magus is one card that shows up plenty all the time for me...sometimes to a fault...in multiples of three...over the span of four turns.

With all that schpiel said, Elspeth is primarily a fifth and six, far more sub-optimal crucible, but also is a threat and a subversive way to prevent damage and waste and opponent's resources and time. I think that the last two features are the main reason why I am testing her and not mirror...that and spirit mirror is fucking spirit mirror...like damn.

[Skeggi]

The reason to run Spirit Mirror over Elspeth is pretty obvious. Elspeth can be attacked, and then she dies. Spirit Mirror can't be attacked; if the token can't chump, the Mirror still lives on, making sure that whatever is pounding your face, will have to be sacrificed sooner or later (with Smokestack@2, rather sooner than later).

I know you could argue that Spirit Mirror will catch enchantment hate; but most decks run far more creature threats than enchantment removal; making Elspeth (or any other Planeswalker) more vulnerable than Spirit Mirror. Our primary defense lies within mana denial and prison effect. But this doesn't protect Elspeth. Basically she can only be kept alive when you're probably already winning, putting Elspeth in the win-more section.

But I wouldn't run Spirit Mirror either; I'm just saying, if pooping out a token each turn is that fantastic, why didn't we use Spirit Mirror earlier? The answer to this is, we don't need to poop out a token each turn. What we need is to draw that Armageddon, that Smokestack, or that Magus of the Tabernacle. We don't need to draw Elspeth (or Spirit Mirror), so I don't include her (or it) in my deck.

About Mobilization: the big advantage here is that you can make as many tokens as you like, enableing you to run Smokestack@5 in the long run. No way anyone can keep up with that . But I probably won't use Mobilization either, but it might be fun to test at least.

[_erbs_]

anyone tried using karn, silver golem ? so that other artifacts would still be usefull

[Arsenal]

anyone tried using karn, silver golem ? so that other artifacts would still be usefull

On paper, it would open you up to your opponent's creature removal. Getting your Crucible of Worlds Smothered would be . Karn seems win-more, and he also opens you up to creature hate that normally would be 90% dead against you.

[klaus]

Pondering on the inclusion of Elspeth, I came across this mirage:

Ensaring Bridge>G. Prison: The #1 pro arguement being: Granted you play your entire hand, which should be doable pretty swiftly, your planeswalkers can't be attacked .
#2 You can't be attacked. #3 It's colorless. OK.OK. adding three to four 2WW dudes diminishes that bonus
What is more, with Tarmogoyfs, Dreadnoughts and Tombstalkers infesting numerous archetypes, Ghostly Prison simply isn't what it used to be , I know you're with me on this one. That's why Ensaring Bridge seems like a promising replacement for it.
Of course I'm aware of the obvious drawback that EB inherits: Our own kill becomes more complicated to execute. Then again we must not forget that Stax is a natural prison deck that simply does what it wants as soon as mission board control is completed.
Bottom line being: Either we find a slick bypass or we need to get rid of EB (in case our opponent hasn't already conceded ).
...our natural outs being:
- sac EB to Smokestack (not cool)
- remove EB with Ring (not cool)
- or...(tataa!) create infinite Elspeth tokens and bash ftw! (1 card in hand suffices. Heh!)

With EB, Ajani Goldmane/Vengeant become realistic options, too, with the latter being immune to EB's drawback.
That being said, I haven't completely tuned my BridgeStax.dec, yet. Here is my entré, though:

Core (monoW):
4 Ensaring Bridge
4 Crucible of Worlds
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Armageddon/Ravages of War
4 Mox Diamond
3-4 Trinisphere
3-4 Smokestack
2-3 Oblivion Ring
(28-31, leaving 4-6 open slots)

Aspiring candidates:
1-2 Ajani Goldmane (probably 1)
1-3 Elspeth (probably 2)

Outsider:
0-4 Magus of the Tabernacle
With a third of the creature taxing suite gone (-4 Ghostly Prison), Magus' shotty slot for team geddonstax is questionable. Taxing our own Elspeth soldiers sucks, too.
Those 4 slots must be occupied by some sort of "creature hate" and possible killcon, however - Windborn Muse being a likely successor and 2nd wincon (sans EB)- what do you say?
---
Thoughts on the new SB:
Going the Soldier kill route means, we have to make sure they survive long enough. That is why Engineered Explosives and Pernicous Deed are to be adressed even more than before, I think (E. Angel didn't care too much about them, didn't she..)
So 4 Pithing Needle (over Suppression Field) seems like that way to go.
Running Planeswalkers definitely weakens the Burn MU - or does it?
1-2 additional Ajanis should fix this MU.
Absolute Law seems overkill, even though it helps against stuff like Pyroclasm.
Phew. Burned out for now...

Let me know what you think.

Klaus

[Mordel]

Hmmm, I don't think vengeant is really viable because of the red issue and I don't really like Goldmane because two life per turn is sort of meh for a four mana card. A card that I am intrigued by is bridge. The only real issue with bridge is that if you are being pressured a bunch, your opponent will in effect be pressuring you into burning cards you might rather hang onto. Then again most stuff that turns sideways in this format is of a three or bigger power.

I am sure that someone that has tested this will give their thoughts because it seems too obvious to not test in geddon stax being as suntower ran bridge if I recall.

[Captain Hammer]

I'm on the same boat. Im not particuarly impressed by any of the Plainswalkers.

But Ensnaring Bridge seems very promising in a meta infested with Dreadnoughts, Tarmogoyfs and Tombstalkers.

I guess Plainswalkers give you a way to get around Bridge, but there's got to be a better option.

I suppose you can keep yourself at 2 cards and beat with Magus and Factories.

[georgjorge]

However, the Goblins and Goyf Sligh matchup will be severely weakened. The advantage of Bridge might still outweigh that, but I think you'd at least have to include sideboard cards for those matchups.

[Captain Hammer]

I'm not saying that we should cut Ghostly Prison (though we might be able to get away with cutting one).

I was just wondering outloud actually.

There seem to be 2-3 meta cards in the deck. Cards where people opt to play either Oblivion Ring, Cataclysm, Ravages of War, Windborn Muse or a Plainswalker.

Perhaps 2-3 Ensnaring Bridge could be tried there.

The traditional slot typically given 3 Exalted/Battlegrace Angels could be given to some neowin condition like a Plainswalker instead.

But a neowin condition is not even neccesarily needed. Factories and Magus can still attack thru EB as long as you keep 2 cards in your hand during the attack phase and play one only after you attacked.

Sounds like it could have potential.

[Mordel]

There are some situations where a bridge could be more effective than an o-ring, which is usually the much saught after meta slot in mosts decks that I see kicking around

The meta slots are usually angels, rings or ravages. I might be leaving something out, but a bridge could potentially shut the one big creature down worse than anything else...the only problem is that you need to draw a magus/geddon to get its ass out of the way to swing =/

I dunno, testing Elspeth in my deck is good enough for me, I'm not fuckin' around with bridges until I figure out whether I really like her or not.

[DeathScythe]

prison >>>> ensnaring bridge anytime of the day for me
This is due to a very simple reason: If you happen to have both a prison and a trinisphere out you force your opponent to think about what to do. Will he attack (being unable to counter) or will he attack (enabling a counter, but giving you an extra turn). Most people will prob go for the assault as they do NOT want to give stax those turns and if they do you can just Geddon them to seal the game.

True admittedly in some situations bridge could be better but I think with the overall synergy of the deck.

About the planeswalkers, the reason I run 2 elspeth is due to the variable ways I can use her (and because I run moat to solid protect her). This is a personal choice and I think planeswalkers will have to fit in your way of playing the deck. All we can do here is just discuss the good and the bad parts, which are in this case very obvious imo.


I got a national comming up next week and I'm still to decide whether I will play my wildfire or my stax, if I go for staxx I will run elspeth and go on the reportage.

[Mordel]

Prison is totally better than bridge, but moat does pretty much the same thing functionally...hmmm

[klaus]

prison >>>> ensnaring bridge anytime of the day for me
This is due to a very simple reason: If you happen to have both a prison and a trinisphere out you force your opponent to think about what to do. Will he attack (being unable to counter) or will he attack (enabling a counter, but giving you an extra turn). Most people will prob go for the assault as they do NOT want to give stax those turns and if they do you can just Geddon them to seal the game.

...I disagree with your reasoning, which I believe is totally flawed:
G. Prison+"xyz-lock-piece"= giving your opponent the opportunity to attack or do other stuff (not forcing him to do "x").
Bridge+xyz-lock-piece= (most of the time) denying your opponent the opportunity to attack.

Building your argument on "if my opponent has more options he's likely to make the worse choice" is a logic that doesn't make sense in a competitive environment.

Prison is totally better than bridge

It's cool if you think that way, it'd be more pro if you added an explanation to your hypothesis, though.
--
Anyway, here are some things to consider:
Ghostly Prison (pros):
- better turn 1/2 drop, when staring down a horde of Zombie(icho.dec)/ETW tokens.
- not vulnerable to artifact hate ála Shattering Spree, Goblin Tinkerer, Tinstreet Hooligan, Smash to Smithereens, Shatterstorm().
- feel free to complete the list

Ensnaring Bridge (pros):
- better casting cost (colorless)
- better casting cost than Moat and no strings attached (applies to fliers, too)
- shuts down opposing critters as a one-of (read: its effect is not conditional* after having played most of your hand) *whereas G.Prison IS conditional and only really denies attacks in multiples or accompanied with successful massive mana denial (additional prerequisite).
- is superior, when staring down a lonely Goyf, Tombstalker, Dreadnought, etc..= more frequent scenario than the token example above.
- Mulling due to mana flooding/shortage does not hurt as badly anymore: With G.PRison you need a certain amount of lock pieces asap in order to win the game.
With Bridge having mulled to 4 or 5 for whatever reason isn't neccessarily 'gg' against aggro since you can slam down a Bridge and take it from there. And hey, you don't even have to play as many spells to reach full protection. ;)
- (other than G.Prison) must be handled by decks that win via combat dmg (=80% of the field)*
* Any creature can go the distance right through 2G. Prisons
- protects Planeswalkers
---

For refereance - here's the list that I've been testing today (comments added):

GeddonStax_2.1:
4 Ensaring Bridge-------has been solid all day - I never wanted it to be G. Prison, ever.
4 Crucible of Worlds
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Armageddon
4 Mox Diamond
3 Trinisphere
3 Smokestack
2 Ajani Goldmane----------even though he bought me several turns (giving me 12+ lifes: via his 1st ability and by 'eating' combat dmg) Ajani turned out to be a MD failure, since he doesn't affect the board position. I still consider making room for 2 copies in my SB.
2 Oblivion Ring------------the 'allrounder'. I might ramp 'em up to 3, making room for Ajani in the SB
2 Elspeth------------------replacing Angels proved to be a bomb, to say the least. I consider adding "Else" #3.
3 Magus o.t. Tabernacle---He's still very good! His dissynergy with Elspeth tokens is a minor flaw compared to his impact on our game.
(--35--)
4 Flagstones of Trokair
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Wasteland
7 Plains
2 Mishra's Factory
(--25--)

SB:
4 Pithing Needle------------replaced Suppression Fields (=not synergistic with Elspeth/Factories/Wasteland)
4 Defense Grid
2 Sphere of Law
2 Ethersworn Canonist-----I felt we need more combo hate. Combo decks adopting H.'s Recall, Serenity, (Soli adopting Command...) and the likes are troublesome.
1 Magus of the Tabernacle
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Trinisphere
---
More results to come. Comments appreciated.

Klaus

---
Optimized Version
GeddonStax_2.2:
4 Ensaring Bridge
4 Crucible of Worlds
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Armageddon
4 Mox Diamond
3 Trinisphere
3 Smokestack
3 Oblivion Ring
3 Elspeth
3 Magus of the Tabernacle
4 Flagstones of Trokair
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Wasteland
7 Plains
2 Mishra's Factory
SB:
4 Pithing Needle
4 Defense Grid
3 Ajani Goldmane
1 Magus of the Tabernacle
3 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Trinisphere