[Article] Dredging its Way to the Top

[Bardo]

Article, by Anwar Ahmad

An article about Ichorid by Anwar.

Interesting structure, but a bit too short and thin in places; however, I liked the organization: intro, tourney data, match-ups, bullets. Certain portions could have been developed with a deeper analysis of the format, but this was an otherwise fine article.

In passing, Anwar, the mog shot is really unflattering. Try smiling next time. :)

[Jak]

I agree on the mug shot photo :)

Anyway, I enjoyed the article because it had everything that someone would want that was picking up the deck. I also liked how it provided actual results and data to back it up rather than an own opinion. This was also a nice topic to write about. Nice work!

[Osse]

Very nice article Anwar. As I haven't kept up much with Ichorid, other than knowing the obvious, this was nice. One thing I think that would have been nice is what Ichorid has for answers against the hate, and what their sb options are. Especially for the audience that doesn't know much about the deck, questions such as "Do you strictly play anti-hate? Disruption?" Etc.

Also, despite Bryant's winnings with TES, and others with Fetchland Tendrils, are they putting up enough numbers to contest with Thresh, Landstill and Goblins? Or was it because it's possibly Ichorid's toughest matchup?

Don't get me wrong, I enjoyed the article and would like to see alot more articles done in a similar fashion.

Also, I'm not meaning to knock any other articles with my comments here. So, for the other writers, keep it up!

[AnwarA101]

Very nice article Anwar. As I haven't kept up much with Ichorid, other than knowing the obvious, this was nice. One thing I think that would have been nice is what Ichorid has for answers against the hate, and what their sb options are. Especially for the audience that doesn't know much about the deck, questions such as "Do you strictly play anti-hate? Disruption?" Etc.

Also, despite Bryant's winnings with TES, and others with Fetchland Tendrils, are they putting up enough numbers to contest with Thresh, Landstill and Goblins? Or was it because it's possibly Ichorid's toughest matchup?

Don't get me wrong, I enjoyed the article and would like to see alot more articles done in a similar fashion.

Also, I'm not meaning to knock any other articles with my comments here. So, for the other writers, keep it up!

I included TES and Fetchland Tendrils not because they have been putting up large numbers (I did not include them in the data analysis), but rather to highlight Ichorid's weakness. The deck could have sounded too good to be true if you only viewed against those 3 matchups, but I wanted to provide a more accurate portrayal of the deck.

I changed the picture, I would have thought that was enough. I think I'll just go with a picture of Eva Green next time. She's better looking anyway.

[Internet Hate Machine]

A good read, but one question is bugging me now. Is extirpate really that weak against ichorid? I thought shutting down the combo was a relatively good play against that deck and judging by the article you make it seem fairly irrelevant unless two extirpates get played.

[Jak]

A good read, but one question is bugging me now. Is extirpate really that weak against ichorid? I thought shutting down the combo was a relatively good play against that deck and judging by the article you make it seem fairly irrelevant unless two extirpates get played.

Ichorid beatdown is still a clock.

[Lukas Preuss]

Nice article. I would have liked more of "why is this deck different than the Extended lists", though. Many people know the deck from the last Extended season and they will assume its just the same one/a simple port from Extended... but there are some differences:

For example:
- Not such a main focus on Dread Return (this already confused the first poster in the SCG forum)
- Ichorid (the card) is better in Legacy than in Extended - and therefore people should not play 2 or 3 (as in Extended decks) but always 4.
- The importance of Lion's Eye Diamond
- The metagame difference between Extended and Legacy (such as Swords to Plowshares)

Other than that, it was a very nice introcudction and summary of the deck. Keep up the good work! Maybe you will write a more in depth analysis some time? :)

[Hightower]

Playing 3 Ichorid is actually pretty normal in Legacy "Dredge" as far as I have seen.

You don't need more then 1 _maybe_ 2 in the grave since you still need black creatures to remove to it..

[YuanTi]

"While Ichorid’s presence in Top 8 isn’t nearly as numerous as Threshold, Goblins, or Landstill, it is surprisingly strong. It is very close to that of Landstill, and not too far behind Threshold and Goblins."

I liked that.

Seriously the article was good. Including numbers of results was helpful, and matchups weren't bad, although they weren't hugely detailed.

I disagree on Extirpate. Extirpating Bridge leaves you with indestructible 3/1s as your win-con. Goyfs can block these and they can be StPed. Sacing a creature to deal with Bridge, and then Extirpating Ichorid leaves you with 4 1/1 fliers to win the game...

[Eldariel]

Fact is that no matter how good it is, Extirpate still doesn't end games like Jailer or Leyline.

Solid article, but I thought it could've been a bit longer; things Lukas Preuss listed would've been good to touch on. Still, it's great to see Legacy Ichorid getting some press - the deck has gone neglected for quite long enough.

[Lukas Preuss]

Playing 3 Ichorid is actually pretty normal in Legacy "Dredge" as far as I have seen.

You don't need more then 1 _maybe_ 2 in the grave since you still need black creatures to remove to it..

See, this is what I mean. In Legacy, many people play not enough Ichorids, because they just copy the Extended lists, not realizing some vital points. First of all, a single Ichorid in the graveyard is not enough, because of StP. You want to put Ichorids into the graveyard as much as possible, because otherwise StP can really wreck your Ichorid beatdown plan. Also, Ichorid is a black creature to remove for other Ichorids... so cutting down Ichorids in favor of other black creatures would be totally useless.

In Legacy, the Ichorid beatdown plan is actually just as crucial (or even more) to the overall gameplan as the Dread Return combo part is.

[Hightower]

Who said anything about cutting Ichorid for other black creatures =P

I'm not sure if I agree with you that the beatdown plan is just as important as the combo, from my (limited) experience the combo won me ~80% of the 10-12 games , the other games were won by Putrid Imp, Narcomoebas and some zombie tokens.

I also think that StP although it is a really good card, but I don't think it should scare you into running more/less cards. Not every deck plays white/StP..

[Willoe]

I also think that StP although it is a really good card, but I don't think it should scare you into running more/less cards. Not every deck plays white/StP..

Now that I finally know what it means, I have to say: QFT

And even better, as you're beating really fast (the beatdown plan does not take more than four turns to finish) it becomes hard for the opponent to find it. And in the meantime, you've dredged even more. If they know what you're playing, a white mana source and STP isn't exactly what they're mulling for against you.

Still, I think that you should run 4. 2 a turn gives you two zombie tokens, 6 damage and two more Therapy outlets. 4 is good, as they also pitch to each other. Having an Ichorid in the graveyard without another black creature is sad times.

So: Don't exactly have a phobia of STP ruining your day, but still play 4 Ichorids in my opinion

[BreathWeapon]

You can't run less than 4xIchorid, in match ups like Goblins or Affinity, after your Bridge from Below is removed, you have to able to attack in waves.

I'm not 100% on the deck list, one of the problems Ichorid has is there's no consensus on what the right number of Dread Return and Deep Analysis is, and whether or not Careful Study is an integral MD card.

[Nihil Credo]

A good presentation, overall.

One thing I would have liked to see mentioned is the possibility of hating Ichorid not by attacking the graveyard, but rather the combat phase, which the deck entirely relies upon to. A Ghostly Prison/Propaganda, Dueling Grounds, Moat, or AEther Flash severely hampers the hordes of Horrors and Zombies, at which point you'll only at worst have to deal with a single Dread Return -> fattie (and not all lists run even that). The big advantage, of course, is that this sort of hate has a dual purpose in shoring up the tribal aggro matchups as well.

[Ewokslayer]

A good presentation, overall.

One thing I would have liked to see mentioned is the possibility of hating Ichorid not by attacking the graveyard, but rather the combat phase, which the deck entirely relies upon to. A Ghostly Prison/Propaganda, Dueling Grounds, Moat, or AEther Flash severely hampers the hordes of Horrors and Zombies, at which point you'll only at worst have to deal with a single Dread Return -> fattie (and not all lists run even that). The big advantage, of course, is that this sort of hate has a dual purpose in shoring up the tribal aggro matchups as well.

You forgot to mention Elephant Grass.

Technically, all Dredge decks run the Dread Return --> Fattie plan, Grave-troll is not what most people would call small.

[Elficidium]

Nice article, only 1 slight remark.

Don't forget all the new toys Vial goblins has with the B splash, this makes it quite a bad matchup for Ichorid, certainly postboard. Preboard you have Warren Weirding and possible Fanatic recursion with Wort to be worried about. Postboard you have therapies as sac outlets and Leylines on the other side of the table.

[Nihil Credo]

You forgot to mention Elephant Grass.

Technically, all Dredge decks run the Dread Return --> Fattie plan, Grave-troll is not what most people would call small.

Correct on both points.

I was thinking more of Simic Sky Swallower / Red Akroma, i.e. "flying, StP-proof clock".

[THEchubbymuffin]

"play Cabal Therapy or Dredge Return" - article

I liked the article, when I played around with this deck just testing it, I was pretty bad Game 2. And if I had read this before it might have been a little bit better.

[nitewolf9]

A well done article. I think ichorid/dredge is probably one of the most underrated decks in the format, and it is surprisingly resilient to a lot of the hate out there. Good choice for a topic. Perhaps someone could write a primer for the deck as well, or maybe have a few sample hands/scenarios on how to play it since it involves such a unique style of play.