Banned List discussion - not 2 weeks before

[T is for TOOL]

No he isn't. I have built and played the deck using Land Tax that pounds everything except combo. No I will not relate the deck again. I am tired as hell of this topic.

Are its matchups as good as Dirts?

[My Name Is Scott]

Are its matchups as good as Dirts?

Strictly better actually. Dirt's Dirt matchup is much worse than Finn Land Tax's Dirt matchup.

[Bovinious]

Are people actually saying Land Tax is overpowered? Seriously, someone needs to show me (and every other person who knows Land Tax sucks) a list in which you can break the 3 basic lands a turn. Itd be nice if it actually, you know, won the game also, not just Scroll-Racked into more land tax/scroll rack/plains/whatever God-awful cards your playing in a white deck with Land Tax and Scroll Rack. People think that drawing cards is really good with Scroll + Tax I assume, but forget that drawn cards are only good if you can actually use them to win the game, or do SOMETHING. Id like to see how a white deck with basic plains can take advantage of the 3 plains a turn, PATROL HOUND ANYONE??? Seriously, I'm sick of people claiming Land Tax is busted just because WOTC (mistakenly) banned it, then they dont even show a list or really explain at all. Infuriating.

[Bane of the Living]

I really think Clamp could come off the list.

Think about it before you hit quote and freak out on me.

We have Pithing Needle, Force of Will, Engineered Explosives, Empty the Warrens, Goblin Charbelcher, Counterbalance. Tons of answers to it.

It doesnt win the game when it resolves, it needs to have creatures to equip to and needs them to die. Your always investing 2 mana and -1 card advantage to draw the first two cards.

I think Legacy is prepared for it.

It doesnt see love in Vintage and it makes me sad to see it unplayed when things like turn two kills happen even in Legacy now.

I would also like to make a motion to free Entomb. Its my favorite Spike/Johnny card of all time and I want it back.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Skullclamp would break the fragile Tarmogoyf vs. Tarmogoyf stalemate holding our metagoyf together.

[Whit3 Ghost]

Are its matchups as good as Dirts?

Still loses to Thunderbluff.

[Samshire]

I really think Clamp could come off the list.

Think about it before you hit quote and freak out on me.

We have Pithing Needle, Force of Will, Engineered Explosives, Empty the Warrens, Goblin Charbelcher, Counterbalance. Tons of answers to it.

Seems like Skullclamp and Empty the Warrens would be pretty good...

I would also like to make a motion to free Entomb. Its my favorite Spike/Johnny card of all time and I want it back.

Why not? Most of the other 1 mana tutors are unbanned now...

[SpatulaOfTheAges]

I think GRAH should be unbanned. It'd shake up the meta-game.

For Sirius though...I used to be for unbanning Clamp, but I think there's more going for it than against it in the intervening cardpool. EtW and Glimpse of Nature especially.

[Bovinious]

I'm not so sure about 'Clamp. Its one of those cards that might or might not be okay to have around. WOTC isnt going to gamble that it wont be broken so most likely it will stay. The only cards that will come off are cards that WOTC feels have no chance of becoming broken, such as Land Tax and hopefully Dream Halls.

[Finn]

It really does amaze me how certain personalities come out of the woodwork when they smell fresh meat. Once again you have displayed that you know more than the person who has actually bothered to test. At Salvation we had a contest concerning building and playing decks with banned cards, and I did. I built several.

Ya know, back when I caught hell for reporting on Dirt, a deck that did things like nearly autowin against certain decks such as Threshold, I figured that eventually the folks who "knew" I was making it up would eventually learn the truth. Some people did.

IBA, for example, went through the trouble of messing with BGW control and quickly came out with a deck of his own, some tournament reports, and statements like "Threshold- Autowin. No, seriously. I know I said Train Wreck was a near autowin, but..." and I assumed that anyone who payed attention would soon figure it out for themselves. But amazingly there are ostensibly repected members of this community who still think they are funny when they mock my observations that have been independently corroborated over and over.

Goog God, ppl. Have some self respect.

[Raider Bob]

Dream Halls - Do we not remember Zvi's turn 2 type 2 kill deck where the turns took 30 minutes to kill you cause he removed every card in your library from the game? Anytime you can draw multiple cards for free you have a decicive advantage over anyone If Dream Halls read Remove from the game rather than discard, this card would not be as broken.

[kirdape3]

MWC's problem was never drawing cards; Eternal Dragon did the same thing that Land Tax would do except it cost 7 mana to buy it back for one card rather than one mana for 3 cards potentially every turn. MWC's problem is that it can't control the stack except in limited circumstances (Orim's Chant/Abeyance, Mana Tithe if you wanted, Rebuff the Wicked if you wanted), and therefore is at the complete mercy of the combination decks. Oh, nice Humility. It costs 4 mana which you didn't hit because I killed you on turn 2. Land Tax doesn't help that deficiency.

I'm pretty sure though that converting lands that you draw off of Land Tax into useful cards isn't so hard; look at Devastating Dreams from Aggro-Loam for an inspiration.

[Bovinious]

It really does amaze me how certain personalities come out of the woodwork when they smell fresh meat. Once again you have displayed that you know more than the person who has actually bothered to test. At Salvation we had a contest concerning building and playing decks with banned cards, and I did. I built several.

Ya know, back when I caught hell for reporting on Dirt, a deck that did things like nearly autowin against certain decks such as Threshold, I figured that eventually the folks who "knew" I was making it up would eventually learn the truth. Some people did.

IBA, for example, went through the trouble of messing with BGW control and quickly came out with a deck of his own, some tournament reports, and statements like "Threshold- Autowin. No, seriously. I know I said Train Wreck was a near autowin, but..." and I assumed that anyone who payed attention would soon figure it out for themselves. But amazingly there are ostensibly repected members of this community who still think they are funny when they mock my observations that have been independently corroborated over and over.

Goog God, ppl. Have some self respect.

I assume (at least in part) you were talking about my post. If you thought it was inflammatory, well it was and it was supposed to be. I find it very hard to respect somebody who thinks Land Tax is broken, and even harder when they provide no evidence to this non-fact. Again, I invoke anyone to show me a list "abusing" Land Tax, I'd be impressed if it could actually use Land Tax en route to winning a match, let alone being broken.

[Finn]

Nope, not you. :)

EDIT: Why would you assume the deck even remotely resembled MWC? That strategy is well-trodden.

[Whit3 Ghost]

He's talking about me and Tool.

Seriously, Dirt vs Threshold =/= autowin.

Train Wreck runs 3 Damnation, 3 Punishment, 2 Decree of Pain, 3 Edict and 4 deed along with big creatures and Haunting Echoes.

Dirt runs what, 4 Deed and Living wish-> Withered Wretch?

[chmoddity]

Seriously, Dirt vs Threshold =/= autowin.

Train Wreck runs 3 Damnation, 3 Punishment, 2 Decree of Pain, 3 Edict and 4 deed along with big creatures and Haunting Echoes.

Dirt runs what, 4 Deed and Living wish-> Withered Wretch?

I think that quote comes from the Truffle Shuffle thread.

TS and Dirt are both very good against Thresh btw. But I don't see what that has to do with how crappy Land Tax is.

Machinus' article is up btw. He has some interesting ideas about the affect it might have.

[cheddercaveman]

Has anyone thought about cards that NEED to be banned in the current format? Wizards has said many times that they ban a card when it entirely shapes a format, do you want to know what 2 cards do that?

Aether Vial and Goblin Lackey. Almost any deck has to have 8 answers to a turn 1 Lackey. How is that not format shaping? Yes, I realize a lot of people play StP anyways, or FoW, etc, but that is still a format swinger. Vial pretty much says every deck needs to have 3 needles in the sideboard because otherwise goblins end up on the table and there's nothing you can do. While I'm hating on the gobos, I'd actually be fine with the above cards, if Ringleader didnt exist, seriously when did we decide that red gets better draw than blue or black with a 2/2 haster attached? Its normally 3 cards, plus the 2/2, red isnt supposed to be able to do that, its what keeps it in check. Now, I realize I'm complaining, but Goblins is no where near as bad as something like Flash, still it does shape the entire format and I think its something that should be looked at seriously.

[Whit3 Ghost]

I think that quote comes from the Truffle Shuffle thread.

TS and Dirt are both very good against Thresh btw. But I don't see what that has to do with how crappy Land Tax is.

Machinus' article is up btw. He has some interesting ideas about the affect it might have.

I'm aware of that, but what Finn was saying is that because Jack improved an incredibly favorable matchup, that his stating that Trainwreck vs. Threshold was an autowin was the exact same thing as the matchup percentages for dirt.

[FoolofaTook]

Has anyone thought about cards that NEED to be banned in the current format? Wizards has said many times that they ban a card when it entirely shapes a format, do you want to know what 2 cards do that?

Aether Vial and Goblin Lackey. Almost any deck has to have 8 answers to a turn 1 Lackey. How is that not format shaping? Yes, I realize a lot of people play StP anyways, or FoW, etc, but that is still a format swinger.

Needing to deal with a creature on turn 1 is not format-shaping, it's just Magic and it always has been that way.

Vial pretty much says every deck needs to have 3 needles in the sideboard because otherwise goblins end up on the table and there's nothing you can do.

There are a lot of different solutions to turn 1 Vial. It's just that the current meta frowns upon cheap dedicated artifact removal and thus has to over-engineer by requiring a more general solution, like Pithing Needle or Engineered Explosives.

Neither Lackey nor Vial are remotely as format-shaping as Land Tax would be because people have to have solutions to a turn 1 artifact or creature anyway. At the moment nobody needs to have a solution to a card that gives permanent card advantage unless you modify your play drastically to counter it.

[Sanguine Voyeur]

...as format-shaping as Land Tax would be...

How exactly would Land Tax shape the meta? Machinus just wrote an article about Land Tax I think you should read.