[Deck] Armageddon Stax

[Isei]

Smokestack is probably the strongest card in the list, while suppression field doesn't even make the cut for my sideboard anymore.

Also, the entire point of my post was that if you want to increase consistency, use tutors or wishes.

[_erbs_]

@MULocke
Yes, knight and wasteland are affected but droping suppression field 1st or 2nd turn would really give headaches to zoo players who runs 10 fetch atleast.

Smokestack is really a nice card but the problem with it is that you need 4 mana and you must have more board permanents than your opponent. Yes its given that you will surely have the upper hand in droping permanents because of your turbo lands and taxing effects like trinisphere, but even if your running 24-26 lands there are times you'll find it hard to drop more permanents than your opponent.

Smokestack is the screw that locks up your lock while supression field on the other hand is like another taxing effect which i think is very key because cotv , ghostly prison and trinisphere still don't cut it.

If you can't control the board early smokestack is almost a dead card.

[Al-ucard]

If you can't control the board early smokestack is almost a dead card.

And against decks like zoo, canadian, merfolks, goblins and bant decks, pay 4 for take the most useless permanent for the opponent in the next turn its toooooooo slow.

[Isei]

On the contrary, I almost always have more permanents than my opponent. Just because there are times when it's hard to use something doesn't mean you shouldn't be playing it. For example, I run Force of Will in my Candian Thresh deck. But sometimes I don't have a blue card to pitch to it! Force of Will must be bad.

Yeah, it doesn't work that way.

I think most people who play this deck misplay mainly on Smokestack. So, here's a little bit of a mini-guide for it:

1) Smokestack can go higher than 1. I know for some of you this seems obvious, but it isn't for others. You need to take the time to evaluate the board position on every upkeep to figure out if you should add a counter or not. It isn't uncommon for me to ramp it up to 2 or 3-- occasionally 4-- counters. Crucible + Smokestack at 1 isn't the end-all of the deck. You CAN simply use crucible to rebuild after a smokestack at 3 gets sacrificed.

2) See number one. It's very important.

3) A smokestack that does manage to do its job does not always have to be sacrificed. Let's say you're on one land, a crucible, and a smokestack, with a chalice at 1 on the field, an d their opponent with only a single land in play. Many players I've seen will go ahead and sacrifice the smokestack on their upkeep so they can begin to rebuild their mana. However, that is almost always the wrong play. Since your opponent is completely locked out of the game in this position (at least 80% of the time), you have as much time as you want to finish the game. So, wait to draw into the Flagstones or Mox Diamonds to start rebuilding your mana base-- you have no reason to get greedy and try to end the game earlier.

I might add more to this as I think of stuff.

[_erbs_]

@Isei
All your points on the smokestack are valid and true. But you still need 4 mana to able to cast smokestack. Smokestack needs several cards present aswell to be able to work like what the situation you gave. While supression field on the other hand will work instantly even without other cards.

Smokestack is really a powerful card and when i tried playing blue stax with no smokestack i really missed it. I know how strong smokestack is but 4 mana is still 4 mana. There are times in where you don't draw any turbo lands or your lands got hit by wasteland and can't draw a single land even if you have 24-26 lands in your deck.

Like what the other posters have posted above queller might be able to replace smokestack because it almost acts like a smokestack with regards to smokestack it still needs cotv so your opponent don't out play in on the board. Basically they both need support cards but queller is 5cc and might be even harder to cast.

[Misplayer]

The 4 mana argument against Smokestack doesn't really compute with me. The curve of the deck is 3-4 mana. The deck is designed to accelerate into mana on turns 1-2 and mana on turns 2-3. If you can drop a turn 2 Smokestack then your opponent MUST answer it or likely lose.

In a vacuum I can see the arguments against Smokestack (mainly that it has no impact on the board during the turn you play it). But backed up by any of Trinisphere, Ghostly Prison, Magus of the Tabernacle and even Suppression Field itself, Smokestack will win you games. Anything that makes it difficult for your opponent to (a) play spells and (b) deal you damage, when combined with Smokestack, is almost always game over.

Also, Isei nailed it, plain and simple. If you're afraid to ramp Smokestack aggressively then you're doing it wrong.

Think of it this way, Stax is composed of three types of cards: 1 - Mana sources; 2 - Cards that make spells/abilities difficult to play; and 3 - cards that take away opponents resources (and occasionally semi-synergistic win conditions like Elspeth or Baneslayer). Finding the correct combination of these cards to maximize your chances of drawing them is a more valuable discussion then talking about card draw or tutoring, for the simple reason that every slot you dedicate to tutoring/card drawing is a slot you take away from the above 3 card types.

In my opinion, the shell of an Armageddon Stax deck starts with:

Mana Sources:
24-26 Lands
4 Mox Diamond

Taxing Effects:
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Trinisphere
4 Magus of the Tabernacle
4 Ghostly Prison

Resource removal:
4-5 Armageddon/Ravages of War
3-4 Smokestack
2-4 Crucible of Worlds


This leaves you with roughly 4-8 slots for Elspeth, Knight-Errant, Baneslayer Angel, Humility, Moat, Oblivion Ring, Suppression Field, etc.

I think many players tend to cut Smokestack beacause it's perceived as 'slow' but I think Crucible is a better choice to reduce to 3 or even 2. With decks like Zoo, Goblins and Merfolk being so popular, I can't justify reducing the number of taxing effects (and actually increasing them with Suppression Field definitely makes sense to me). The resource removal package should definitely include Smokestack, however, because it can often have the same effect as Armageddon. In some situations Armageddon is better, in some situations Smokestack is better. That's why I would advocate both.

[thebadmagicplayer]

I'm against cutting smokestack completely, however I do agree it's too slow for an aggro heavy meta. supression field seems like a good canadate for slowing down and heavily distrupting zoo to buy us time to draw into lock peices, so I beleve it should be main decked. here is what I'll be testing with:
Legacy Stax

Lands
4 wasteland
4 mishra’s factory
1 kabria crossroads
1 karakas
2 flagstones of trolkair
5 plains
3 city of traitors
4 ancient tomb
1 the tabernacle at pendrell vale

Artifacts

4 mox diamond
3 trinnisphere
4 crucible of worlds
2 smokestack
4 chalice of the void

Enchantments
4 ghostly prison
3 oblivion ring
3 suppression field

Creatures
3 magus of the tabernacle

Other Spells
2 Cataclysm
3 Armageddon

Side-Board
2 Humility
1 Trinnisphere
1 Oblivion ring
4 Tormod’s Crypt
2 Smokestack
1 Magus of the Tabernacle
2 Zuren Orb
2 Cataclysm

I,ve noticed that people dont give much explanation to why and how they side board; I find this rather dissapointing as 50% to 66% of the games we play in volve the side-board, so I've decided to include how I intend to board the cards along with reasons. Please tell me If you dissagree with anything in the deck-list or in the Way I am side-boarding, so I can think of another way to do it.

Zoo
-2 Smokestack optional:
-1 Trinnisphere -1 chalice
+2 Humility +1 Magus
+1 O. ring

smoke stack is way too slow for zoo. is it good? yes, but too slow so its out in this match up.
humility is in because It will stem the bleading against the masssive beats that will be coming in, and its nice with man lands and ghostly prison.

Merfolk/Goblins
-3 chalice +2 humility
-1 Smokestack +1 Magus
-1 Trinnisphere +1 O. ring

For swarm aggro, Its pretty much the same except chalices are much weaker in this match-up so they will be going out. the humilities and company go in for the same reasons as listed above.

C.B.-top
-1 Prison +2 Smokestack
-1 magus

This one doesn't require much explanation. they have less creatures and smokestack is much more crazy when it is being played against them.

Lands
-1 Trinnisphere +2 Cataclysm
-2 magus +4 Crypt
-4 ghostly prison +1 O.ring

They have no creatures, and all we need to do to win is Oring the mana accelerents, blow up their land and then crypt is it away.

Enchantress
-4 prison +2 Cataclysm/+1 stack/+1 O.ring

this is probably our worst machup since they play more stuff, draw more cards, and can keep up with our S.Stack as a result. Cataclysm makes them "sacrifice" so they cant karmic justice away what we have left. at which point we are in a better position to come back.

A.N.T./T.E.S./D.D.F.L.T./Dream Halls
-3Magus +1 Trinnispere/+2 Z. Orb

no creatures so no need for magus. 3-sphere and zuren orb can put you in a position where they cant win.
Ichorid /Re-animator
-2 Cataclysm +1 O. ring
-3S.field +4 Crypt

crypt is good, the rest is mediocre.

B/W/G –Good Stuff –PT Junk
-2 Chalice +2 Smokestack
-3 Suppression field +2 Humility
+1 O. ring
they have a higher mana curve than other decks, so chalice isnt as usefull. they also have a lower permanent count so smokestack is very usefull. humility and O. ring are there to deal with things like stalker and goyf so they dont kill you immediately.

comments?

[Isei]

I'm starting to think that people don't know how to mulligan with this deck, either. If you don't have a play until turn 3, then you're going to pitch that hand 90% of the time against known matchups, and 100% against unknown matchups.

As for playing against Zoo, I don't see at all how Smokestack is too slow, either in theory or in practice, assuming you aren't keeping the hands that only have 1 land and a Mox Diamond. Against Zoo, a fast Trinisphere, Chalice, or even Ghostly Prison slows them down a ton. This is the point where you want to drop the Stax. If they didn't have enough mana to work through Chalice or Prison in the first place, then they certainly won't while sacrificing even one permanent per turn. After the Smokestack comes down, that's when you start to drop redundant pieces, like a second Ghostly Prison or the Chalice on top of the Trinisphere.

In short, you need ways to actually lock your opponent out of the game, and the odds of you drawing the 3 Armageddons you would need to do that are extremely low. That's where Smokestack comes in. Suppression field DOES hamper Zoo, but they're still attacking you with creatures. If you say that they won't have mana to cast things, you're assuming they kept the all-fetchlands hand, AND you went first, AND you had the mox diamond to be able to play the field, AND had the field in hand. A nacatl on turn 1 still swings for 3 a turn on top of tomb, and you need a way- Smokestack- to remove it at some point.

[thebadmagicplayer]

You may be right, but I'm gonna test it out anyway. I like smokestack but it seems kinda slow to me. worst case scenario: I waste 3 hours testing the zoo match up and cut some of the fields for more stacks.

[K1LO]

@ thebadmagicplayer:

How has Kabira Krossroads been worked for you, as I didn´t test it myself but absolutely don´t like it on paper. Also, I´m not a huge fan of any generic sb-strategies as I´d e.g. never side out Chalice against Goblins/Merfolk if I´m on the play. I hope you see the point. However, the card you´re siding in the most is the 4th Oblivion Ring, which is conform so far with my experience.

This is my current list and although I´ve stated before that the 4th Stack and Trinisphere are definately must-plays, they don´t seem to work in my meta anymore, which has a lot of first-turn Elves/Hierarchs and some Vials.

4 City of Traitors
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Wasteland
3 Mishra´s Factory
3 Flagstones of Trokair
1 Karakas
6 Snow-covered Plains
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale

4 Mox Diamond
4 Crucible of Worlds
4 Magus of the Tabernacle
4 Oblivion Ring
3 Armageddon
1 Ravages of War
3 Smokestack
3 Trinisphere
4 Ghostly Prison
4 Chalice of the Void

Sideboard:

3 Tormod´s Crypt
1 Wrath of God
1 Day of Judgment
2 Aura of Silence
1 Elspeth, Knight Errant
1 Trinisphere
1 Smokestack
3 Suppression Field
2 Lodestone Golem/Angels

I´ve actually played the Golems last tournament but only sided them in once against Dragon Stompy, as they work well as an early blocker too. But, I´m absolutely not sure about it yet, playing them over the Angels. On the other hand I´ve never been in the need for the extra-life and Golem just comes down much faster, as the difference between four colorless mana and 5 mana, including to white ones, sometimes takes more than just a single turn.


Greetz, K1LO

[_erbs_]

I would use Nomad Stadium over kabira crossroads.

I would still test supression field more but so far the current meta is having a hard time dealing with it. A better way of seeing supression field is like a mini geddon.

The list i used performed nicely and nuetralized those pesky qasali pridemages. Here was the list i used.

Lands [25]
4 ancient tomb
3 city of traitors
4 wasteland
3 flagstone of trokair
2 savannah
1 kor haven
1 horizon canopy
1 nomad stadium
6 plains

Utilities [28]
4 mox diamond
4 crusible of worlds
3 armageddon
4 ghostly prison
4 trinisphere
4 chalice of the void
3 suppression field
2 smokestack

Creatures [7]
4 Magus of the tabernacle
3 knight of the reliquary

Sideboard [15]
3 oblivion ring
1 smokestack
1 suppression field
2 relic of progenitus
1 tormod's crypt
1 wrath of god
1 Martial Coup
3 baneslayer angel
2 aura of silence

I placed the oblivion ring on the sideboard and it was okay. Normally oring was there for early fat threats like tarmo but almost all decks need duals or fetch to get there green mana thus suppression field could stall them or i could wastelock them via crusible + wasteland lock.

[mchainmail]

If smokestack is too slow in the aggro matchups, what is everyone's thought on a second tabernacle? Sure it's legendary but it's a house.

(Ignore the cost factor.)

[The Wes]

Been playing two tabby main since winter of 06 I think.

[SteakKnife]

I,ve noticed that people dont give much explanation to why and how they side board; I find this rather dissapointing as 50% to 66% of the games we play in volve the side-board, so I've decided to include how I intend to board the cards along with reasons. Please tell me If you dissagree with anything in the deck-list or in the Way I am side-boarding, so I can think of another way to do it.

Zoo
-2 Smokestack optional:
-1 Trinnisphere -1 chalice
+2 Humility +1 Magus
+1 O. ring

smoke stack is way too slow for zoo. is it good? yes, but too slow so its out in this match up.
humility is in because It will stem the bleading against the masssive beats that will be coming in, and its nice with man lands and ghostly prison.

Merfolk/Goblins
-3 chalice +2 humility
-1 Smokestack +1 Magus
-1 Trinnisphere +1 O. ring

For swarm aggro, Its pretty much the same except chalices are much weaker in this match-up so they will be going out. the humilities and company go in for the same reasons as listed above.

comments?

As a FYI, I run my own version of dutch stax but I find that SBing is something that I have trouble finding help with thus I am replying to your post.

For the Zoo/Merfolk/Goblins matchups I find it odd you would remove chalice. Is this only on the draw? I can see where you might remove chalice on the draw against merfolk and goblins due to the Aether Vial. What is your reasoning? I side in choke in most of these matchups as I splash for green.

Chalice on one against Zoo cuts out almost all their burn as well as nacatl/figure/grim/apes. What situation do you do this? On the draw? Against a heavy creature deck of varying cc such as one running kotr/thoctar?

[thebadmagicplayer]

sorry I should have mentioned, they are for when Im on the draw. also If I'm on the play for fish/goblins I only take 2 chalice out. their mana curve is not predominately at one so playing it effectively is harder and costs more.

and preliminary testing with zoo has told me that Suppression field is really good and that smoke stacks needs to be in the deck more. I think I'll put the stack back up to 3 and bring the S. field back down to 2. also cataclysm can set you up for the win with smokestack really easy if you have it ramped to one when you play it. deffinately a keeper.

[Moduloc]

Been playing two tabby main since winter of 06 I think.

If your running to tabernacles what are you taking out of your list. I had thought about two as well but thought running 3 magus and 1 tabernacle was good also. suggestions? thanks.

[4zureSky]

Does the upkeep cost for Pendrell Vale and Magus stack?

[The Wes]

Yes, they stack. I'm not sure what I originally took out to put in 2 Tabernacles, but currently this is what I'm running.

Lands
5 Plains
3 Flagstones
1 Horizon Canopy
2 Tabernacles
3 City of Traitors
4 Ancient Tombs
3 Wastelands
4 Mishra's Factory
1 Savannah

Spells
4 Trinisphere
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Crucible of Worlds
4 Mox Diamond
4 Ghostly Prison
4 Armageddon
4 Smokestack
4 Humility
2 Elspeth

Sideboard
3 Oblivion Ring
3 Suppression Field
3 Choke
3 Krosan Grip

The cards keep varying slightly, but overall I keep having more luck with the humility version. When I do run creatures I make a couple changes:
-4 Humility
-2 Elspeth
for
+3 Magus of the Tabernacle
+3 Windborn Muse

Got to say that the 5 Tabernacle effects and 7 Prison effects help a lot if you are really that worried about agro. I'd run ravages of war also but I don't own any and good luck getting them.

[GoldenCid]

Does the upkeep cost for Pendrell Vale and Magus stack?

mmm...yes. If you have a magus + tabernacle in play you must pay (2) por each creature you own and your opo do so.

@The wes: 4 Humility??? Or 2?? I think that cutting elspeth together with humily is not a good idea. Humily + creatures stuff doesn't work very well.
What about lodestone golem??

[The Wes]

If I cut humility, elspeth goes also, or the other way around,its all or nothing with then or so I feel. I've never really liked liked lodestone golem in testing, but I haven't honestly tested it that much.