[Deck] Swan Song/ Chain of plasma combo

[technogeek5000]

The shadowmoor previews thread is getting clogged with talk of this card and the combo suggested realy seems to have alot of potential. It does not rely on artifact acceleration or the graveyard which makes it one of the most resilient combos in magic. Anyways here is what i have been toying around with after i saw the combo.

4 Polluted delta
3 Flooded strand
2 Wooded Foothills
4 Volcanic island
4 island
2 mountain

4 Chrome mox
3 SSG

4 Swan Song
4 Chain of plasma
4 Force of will
4 Daze
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Lightning bolt
2 Lighting storm
2 Counterspell
1 Chain Lightning
1 Portent

4 Pyroclasm
3 Pyrokinesis
3 Shattering spree
3 REB
2 BEB

First off, is the combo:

Swans' Song 2{wu}{wu}
Creature - Bird Spirit Rare
Flying
If damage would be dealt to Swans' Song, prevent that damage. The controller of the damage's source then draws cards equal to the damage prevented in this way.

4/3

Obviously, this with chain of plasma draws ytour deck, where you can therefore kill the opponent. This kill doesnt rely on the grave and artifact acceleration, it runs 8 counterspells, and has answers to almost anything that can be thrown at it. This deck does not need a aggro route like decks like Cephalid breakfast because its kill is infinitely harder to disrupt. With SSG and Chrome mox the kill can be accelerated extremely fast. Lightning bolts and the singleton chain lightnings are red ancestral recalls with the swan out, so if you dont have the chain of plasma it will be easy to find it. Also the lightnings can be used to kill of pesky creatures like magus, hippie, meddling mage, etc... The sideboard has answers to all the decks that would seem to hurt it the most. You side in pyroclasms against goblins, BEB's and shattering sprees for Dragon stompy, REB's for landstill and thresh, and pyrokinesis for... im not sure... whatever you need it for. Pyrokinesis could be sided in to more consistently, as it draws you 4 cards for free.

[PhanTom_lt]

Lightning Storm is better than Firestorm. Firestorm doesn't even work, as far I can see. Also, Conflagrate could be used for an alterantive kill.
How fast can you combo out? What disrupts you? How do you defend from the whatever hate thrown at you? Why only 3 SSG? What do you do if you don't find the combo fast enough?

[Cavius The Great]

@Technogeek - Have you considered Seismic Assault as a win condition? With SSG and Chrome Mox it shouldn't be difficult to cast. Especially when you've drawn your entire deck.

[Elficidium]

Firestorm indeed doesn't work as a kill.

Oracle:
10/4/2004 can't be played for a value of X more than the number of legal (different) targets. You can't target the same thing more than once.

[technogeek5000]

I just changed it, lightning storm is a better option then conflagarate because it doesnt rely on the grave, although it could be useful as a 1-of to protect against extirpate. Seismic assault seems vastly inferior to lighting storm, as you need 3 red and it does 2 damage per mana. The only case where it could be better is if you are low enough on life to be killed by the opponent burning you out from there lands, but even then, if you are smart enough with the stack you can avoid this.

[FoolofaTook]

Unless I'm misreading Chain of Plasma, why do you need anything else?

Cast Chain of Plasma, dealing 3 to Swan. Draw 3. Copy Chain, dealing 3. Repeat 7-10 times. Copy Chain, targetting opponent. Repeat 7 times.

Am I missing something?

The opponent can circumvent the chain by just choosing not to extend it.

Just what the format needed: another creature that makes Swords to Plowshares indispensable.

[Clark Kant]

The opponent can circumvent the chain by just choosing not to extend it.

How? I don't follow.

"Chain of Plasma deals 3 damage to target creature or player. Then that player or that creature's controller may discard a card. If the player does, he or she may copy this spell and may choose a new target for that copy."

Also since the deck is so reliant on finding and resolving a Swan's Song to be able to do enough damage to win, I am wondering if the deck should squeeze in additional ways to find it.

[Clark Kant]

I'm just wondering if this combo is indeed unquestionably superior to the Dreadnought/Trinket Mage + Stifle/Trickbind combo, as that combo uses less mana and has a lot more ways to get each combo piece. Yes, I know it's not instant speed, but the cards in that combo fit into blue's strategy better.

It's an interesting and powerful combo no doubt. I'm just wondering if it is indeed going to be much better than the option already available in the format.

[rufus]

The opponent can circumvent the chain by just choosing not to extend it.

If Chain of Plasma targets a creature, then that creature's controller gets to choose to discard a card since the critter is your own.

I look at this combo, and I wonder about something along the lines of:

Swan of Bryn Argoll
Stuffy Doll

Fire Covenant
Chain of Plasma
Chain Lightning

[technogeek5000]

I'm just wondering if this combo is indeed unquestionably superior to the Dreadnought/Trinket Mage + Stifle/Trickbind combo, as that combo uses less mana and has a lot more ways to get each combo piece. Yes, I know it's not instant speed, but the cards in that combo fit into blue's strategy better.

I am also wondering if the combo is even much better than the Curiosity + Niv Mizzet combo.

It's an interesting and powerful combo no doubt. I'm just wondering if it is indeed going to be much better than the options already available in the format.

basically what seperates the two is the fact that this kills two turns earlier and that the creature part of the combo can be used without the other part and the enabler (burn) can be more widely and effectively used then the dreadnoughts enabler.

Also 4+ 1 mana ancestral recalls seem pretty good.

[Pulp_Fiction]

This is cool as hell, but how does it kill the opponent the turn you can draw your deck out? Chain of Plasma targets Swan, draw three, now choose to target opponent with 3 damage from chain copy and opponent decides not to continue the chain.... how does it keep going? Is Lightning Storm your kill mechanism? It seems like it is which brings up another point, can Pithing Needle stop Lightning Storm's gaining counters? Is that an activated or triggered ability? Wouldn't something like Grapeshot be just as effective combined with all of the burn that is in the deck already?

[Pinder]

It seems like it is which brings up another point, can Pithing Needle stop Lightning Storm's gaining counters? Is that an activated or triggered ability?

It's activated, and it can be Needled. Maybe a 1-of (or more) Shattering Spree to deal with pesky artifacts like needle prior to going off? I mean, you draw your whole deck, and you have red via Moxen and SSG, so it wouldn't be hard to cast it (and even replicate it a couple of times if you have to get around Chalice @ 1 or something). Off the top of my head the things it would most likely deal with are Needle and a Chalice @ 0 to stop your Moxen.

While I'm at it, I'll go ahead and repeat what I said in the Shadowmoor info thread: I think 1 MD Overmaster is also some secret tech that could be put to use. If you bump SSG to 4, you can use 1 for Overmaster, and the other 3 for Lightning Storm. Even if they counter the Overmaster, that's still one less counterspell you have to worry about.

Also, it might be worth it to stick in a 1-of way to deal with Counterbalance, too, but nothing comes to mind ATM.

[georgjorge]

How 'bout some way to deal damage that can be played BEFORE swan comes down (so you don't need six mana in one turn...) ? With a different manabase, Seismic Assault might be good after all - it's worse post-combo, but can help to combo off faster (though you might not have lands left in hand when you need four to play Swans...).

Aren't there any cards that damage your own creatures as a "penalty" ?

[Maagler]

I was thinking would anyone else think this could work in a W/R/g(oyf) aggro shell? You could make it so that the combo is a secondary focus.

something like this

Creatures
4 Mogg Fanatic
4 Swans of Bryn Argoll
4 Tarmogoyf
3 kird ape
4 SSG

Spells
1 seismic assault
4 Lightning Bolt
4 orims chant
4 Chain Lightning
4 chrome mox
4 chain of plasma
2 Incinerate

Lands
4 Taiga
4 Plateau
4 Wooded Foothill
2 windswept heath
1 Forest
1 plains
2 Mountain

Idk this is really rough and off the top of my head, but maybe by not solely focusing on the combo we might have better success.

[Pinder]

Aren't there any cards that damage your own creatures as a "penalty"?

Not that are as easily repeatable as Chain. I also can't think of any offhand that stick to the table. As for Seismic Assault, what happens when you discard a land targeting the Swan, and then you draw two nonland cards (and don't have any more lands in hand)? This might not come up that often, but there's always the possibility, which makes the combo not as solid.

Is there any sort of red (or, less likely, blue) enchantment that lets you discard a card for free to deal more than 1 damage to a creature?

[Sanguine Voyeur]

It's activated, and it can be Needled. Maybe a 1-of (or more) Shattering Spree to deal with pesky artifacts like needle prior to going off?
Also, it might be worth it to stick in a 1-of way to deal with Counterbalance, too, but nothing comes to mind ATM.Conflagrate. No activated abilities and Counterbalance will have a hard time reaching 21.

[Nihil Credo]

You gain Needle immunity, but you are now vulnerable to graveyard hate. Counterbalance immunity is pointless since they can just Balance the Chain of Plasma.

[Pinder]

Conflagrate. No activated abilities and Counterbalance will have a hard time reaching 21.

Ooh. I like it. Also worth noting is that Counterbalance doesn't trigger off of replicate copies, so Shattering Spree also walks right through Counterbalance. 1 MD Conflagrate to Dodge all the Lightning Storm hate, and 1 MD Lightning Storm to dodge all the Conflagrate hate. Sounds pretty solid.

Heaven help you if they have Needle, CB, and Leyline, though. :tongue:

edit -
Counterbalance immunity is pointless since they can just Balance the Chain of Plasma.

Oh sure, ruin all our fun :tongue:. He's right, though. This deck really needs a way to deal with Counterbalance prior to going off (although, it does have Force and Daze, so it's not entirely helpless).

[Hightower]

If you have to add other direct dmg then Chain of Plasma, then why not run Lightning Axe? 5 cards seems better then 3.. and the drawback is nothing really

Can't wait to see what happens when Shadowmoor is released =P

[Shtriga]

This is cool as hell, but how does it kill the opponent the turn you can draw your deck out? Chain of Plasma targets Swan, draw three, now choose to target opponent with 3 damage from chain copy and opponent decides not to continue the chain.... how does it keep going? Is Lightning Storm your kill mechanism?

I was wondering the same ever since I first saw people talking about the combo

even if you target your swan 300 times, and buy 300 cards, as soon as you target your opponent and he decides not to continue the chain, it stops copying itself - since only the last target can choose to replicate it- dealing a miserable 3 damage and decking yourself next turn.

reminds me of someone somewhere a while ago posting a blue deck thread and listing fact or fiction as it's win condition

or not? I've never played with chain of anything

[Sanguine Voyeur]

Ooh. I like it. Also worth noting is that Counterbalance doesn't trigger off of replicate copies, so Shattering Spree also walks right through Counterbalance.What would you try to destroy, the top?
1 MD Conflagrate to Dodge all the Lightning Storm hate, and 1 MD Lightning Storm to dodge all the Conflagrate hate. Sounds pretty solid.What a great idea, if only I had thought of that before (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showpost.php?p=219511&postcount=257).

Staple Counterbalance hate could be used. Serenity, Wipe Away, Abolish...Patrician's Scorn...Well, maybe not staple.

[Pinder]

If you have to add other direct dmg then Chain of Plasma, then why not run Lightning Axe? 5 cards seems better then 3.. and the drawback is nothing really


Lightning Axe doesn't inherently repeat itself, and you can't draw your whole deck with it. Since drawing your whole deck is the game plan here, I think it's less than stellar.


What would you try to destroy, the top?


I was more thinking Needle or whatever artifact hate they could have (only Chalice comes to mind). I was just saying that the un-Counterbalancablitiy of Spree is worth noting. It's not an answer to CB by any means.



What a great idea, if only I had thought of that before (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showpost.php?p=219511&postcount=257).

I was commenting that I thought your idea sounded solid. I wasn't trying to take credit.

[Hightower]

It's still better then Lightning Bolt in this deck..

[Pinder]

even if you target your swan 300 times, and buy 300 cards, as soon as you target your opponent and he decides not to continue the chain, it stops copying itself - since only the last target can choose to replicate it- dealing a miserable 3 damage and decking yourself next turn.


Alright. This has been brought up a couple of times before, so I'm just going to clarify.

This deck doesn't kill your opponent with Chain of Plasma. Chain of Plasma is just what you use as a draw engine to draw your entire deck, and discard a third of it. You target your Swan with Chain of Plasma, then the damage is prevented and you draw 3 cards. Then, since you control the Swan, you can decide to discard a card (you do) in order to copy it again, targeting the swan. Repeat until you've drawn your entire deck. Now at this point you can make sure that you have a Lightning Storm in Hand, or a Conflagrate in the yard (or both). You also have some number of SSGs and Chrome Moxen in your hand. You can either remove 3 SSGs to play Lightning Storm, discarding all of your lands to pump it for lethal damage, or you can pitch 2 SSGs to Conflagrate, pitching your entire hand for lethal damage. Hell, you could even do both, playing Conflagrate and discarding all of your nonland cards, then responding to it by playing Lightning Storm and discarding all of your lands. The possibilities are really endless.

[Sanguine Voyeur]

Staple Counterbalance hate could be used. Serenity, Wipe Away, Abolish...Patrician's Scorn...Well, maybe not staple.Expanding on this, blue red is possibly the worst at dealing with Counterbalance. You can't Burning Wish for anything, Cunning Wish takes too much mana, and I don't think any solutions other then counters are good enough to main deck.
I was commenting that I thought your idea sounded solid. I wasn't trying to take credit.I didn't intentionally imply that you stole the idea, but I can see how I came off like that.

[FoolofaTook]

How? I don't follow.

"Chain of Plasma deals 3 damage to target creature or player. Then that player or that creature's controller may discard a card. If the player does, he or she may copy this spell and may choose a new target for that copy."

Also since the deck is so reliant on finding and resolving a Swan's Song to be able to do enough damage to win, I am wondering if the deck should squeeze in additional ways to find it.

I was responding to the case above where somebody was wondering about targetting the Swan to draw out their deck and then targetting the opponent 7 times to win. You can't target the opponent 7 times in a row to win, he has to continue the chain once he has become a target in order for the chain to continue, right?

As long as you are targetting your own Swan you are in control, but as soon as you target the opponent he needs to elect to discard a card and target something else for the chain to continue.

[Isamaru]

It's like Nourishing Lich ...without the "you lose the game" part.

Seriously though, please make it either control with a combo finish, or an aggro deck with a combo finish; this deck is not redundant enough (only 4 copies of the one piece) to be solely combo.

The only other card we haven't discussed that is a permanent before the Swan would be Sorrow's Path... Kidding, though, and by the way, it seems like it would NEVER be activated EVER... what the heck.

[Jaiminho]

You target your Swan with Chain of Plasma, then the damage is prevented and you draw 3 cards. Then, since you control the Swan, you can decide to discard a card (you do) in order to copy it again, targeting the swan. Repeat until you've drawn your entire deck.

You need to discard the card before you draw them from damage trigger. This is how it happens:

1. Play Chain of Plasma targetting Swan.
2. On resolution, it deals 3 damage and you may discard a card to copy it. If you do, put the spell on the stack immediately.
3. Now, someone's about to get priority. Swan's trigger is put on the stack.
4. Triggered ability resolves and only now you get to draw your 3 cards.

[Nihil Credo]

Swans of Bryn Argoll has a replacement effect, not a triggered ability.

[Dilettante]

Yeah, it seems to suffer from the same issues as Trix... a neat combo that... while resilient, is a protect-at-all-costs that relies very heavily upon both cards used in succession. Streamlined tutors are needed, but the only one I can think of is Intuition.

Instead of basing the deck around the combo... you could simply make a deck with the combo in it... perhaps play a variant of Survival with 4 Chain of Plasma and a Conflagerate?

[freakish777]

permanent before the Swan

Try Seal of Fire over Lightning Bolt if you really think you need cards in hand immediately (if you resolve a Swan, you're basically going to win). 2 Damage is enough to kill any Goblin/Narcomoeba/Ichorid(to prevent a flashbacked Dread Return/Therapy)/Bob/Mage/Hypnotic Spectre in the format, and with your own Goyf in play Seal will trade with an attacking/blocking Goyf.

I'm unsure whether Bolt or Seal of Fire is the correct call, but seeing as how neither will allow you to combo out the same turn you play the Swan (assuming 4 mana) I'm leaning towards bolt.

Here's the list from the Shadowmoor post:

//Dig
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
3 SDT

//Burn (and draw when Swan is in)
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain of Plasma

//Win
1 Conflagerate/Lightning Storm

//Protection
3 Counterbalance
4 FoW
4 Daze
1 Wipe Away

//dudes
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Swan

//mana
4 Chrome Mox
8 Fetches
4 Tropical Island
4 Volcanic Island

//sb
3 Ancient Grudge (Chalice@1 is bad times)
4 Leyline of the Void (Ichorid might have you beat in a race)
3 Krosan Grip (Krosan Grip shuts down Chain)
4 Chain Lightning (go up to as many Recalls in the mirror as possible)
1 Tormod's Crypt (Ichorid might have you beat in a race).


Against Goblins: Bolt/Counter/outclass (with Goyf) their dudes until you can drop Swan and combo off (or just beat with Goyf, like threshold's plan)

Against Thresh: Play like the Thresh mirror, resolving a Counterbalance/Goyf/Swan with counter back up should be your priority (like Threshold).

Against Combo: Laugh, you win with Counterbalance + Force + Comboing off before they can rebuild (like Threshold, except your combo wins now instead of 5 turns from now and is 2 cards and 3UUR mana instead of 1 card and 1G).

Against Dragonstompy: Try not to let their spells manafuck you, Bolt their dudes, land Goyf, Combo off if possible (like Threshold except you can combo).

Against Ichorid: Race, Bolt their dudes to keep them off Dread Return/Therapy (before they dredge out a Bridge), bring in graveyard hate (like Threshold except you can honestly race game one).

[Hightower]

Still... why Lightning Bolt over Lightning Axe??

[Sanguine Voyeur]

Oh man, this deck should be called Wonderswan.

Topically speaking, I don't know if the third colour is worth the mana instability.
Still... why Lightning Bolt over Lightning Axe??Lightning Axe is card disadvantage without Swan. Due to Swords/Edicts/other non-damage removal, Swan probably shouldn't be played until you can win.

[Jaiminho]

Swans of Bryn Argoll has a replacement effect, not a triggered ability.

Reading is tech. My bad.

[Pinder]

Yeah, it seems to suffer from the same issues as Trix... a neat combo that... while resilient, is a protect-at-all-costs that relies very heavily upon both cards used in succession.

It's true. On that note, I realized on the way home from work that a resolved StP on Swan (or any other non-damage removal) in response to any of your Chain copies = g.f.g for you. Orim's Chant anyone? It seems like this deck needs to be able to win regardless of whether you can set up the combo, because the combo is sort of fragile. A RGW Aggro version keeps sounding better and better.

[Soto]

But then you really don't have any protection other than Orim's Chant. Blue I think is a must.

[Maagler]

Ok, so testing with the last list i posted did not turn out very well, but I have done a little more play testing and have come up with this pile.


// Lands
1 [TSP] Forest (1)
1 [MI] Plains (2)
3 [A] Taiga
3 [8E] Mountain (2)
3 [ON] Windswept Heath
4 [A] Plateau
4 [ON] Wooded Foothills

// Creatures
4 [4E] Savannah Lions
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
4 SWAN
2 [CHK] Isamaru, Hound of Konda
3 [TO] Grim Lavamancer

// Spells
4 [PS] Orim's Chant
4 [MR] Isochron Scepter
4 [ON] Chain of Plasma
4 [U] Lightning Bolt
3 [LG] Chain Lightning
1 [EX] Seismic Assault
4 [MR] Chrome Mox

I like this list because you have a few different options:

1. Winning the good old way with creatures and burn.
2. Scepterchant (or sit on chant till combo goes off)
3. Get out the swan and burn it into a combo

Right now the aggro part of the deck is defiantly lacking and needs to be sped up. but it seems like a good start.

[rasmus_agren@hotmail.com]

I think everyone agrees on that this combo fits best in a shell where the pieces are useful on their own and not just as a combo. I've tried a few different decks and I think something like Faerie Stompy might be good. That deck wants a lot of mana for it's main game plan which some of the other suggested decks don't. Anyways, just a draft:

// Lands
4 Ancient Tomb
2 City of Traitors
8 Island
4 Volcanic Island

// Creatures
2 Mulldrifter
4 Swan
4 Cloud of Faeries
4 Serendib Efreet
4 Sea Drake
3 Simian Spirit Guide

// Spells
2 Sword of Fire and Ice
4 Chrome Mox
2 Umezawa's Jitte
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Chain of Plasma
4 Force of Will
1 Lightning Storm

[Dilettante]

Here's a suggestion to further discussion...

R/W Aggro w/ Combo

4x Swan Song
2x Eternal Dragon
2x Magus of the Tabernacle
4x Magus of the Moon
4x Simian Spirit Guide
3x Exalted Angel

2x Lightning Storm
1x Conflagurate
4x Chain of Plasma

3x Sunforger
4x Chalice of the Void
4x Chrome Mox

4x Plateau
2x Windswept Heath
2x Wooded Foothills
2x Mountain
5x Plains
4x Ancient Tomb
4x City of Traitors

EDIT - I'm not thinking *Scratches Aven Mindcensor

[Pinder]

Hey look, the ability is confirmed and it has art!

http://www.wizards.com/magic/images/mtgcom/products/shadowmoor/images/gvg82129fv_EN.jpg

Wheee! Have at.

[Hanni]

U/R/b KFC
Kentucky Fried

Lands (21)
4 Polluted Delta
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Volcanic Island
3 Badlands
1 Underground Sea
2 Island
2 Mountain
1 Swamp

Creatures (4)
4 Swan of Bryn Argoll

Spells (34)
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Lim-Dul's Vault
3 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Counterbalance
4 Force of Will
4 Thoughtseize
4 Duress
4 Chain of Plasma
1 Conflagrate

I chose to go with Conflagrate MD because very few decks actually pack gy hate MD... and you can always bring in Lightning Storm from the SB if needed. I just don't think wasting an additional slot MD for another win condition is worth it. However, MD Lightning Storm could possibly be better than MD Conflagrate... I have no clue.

So... why the black splash? I feel that black lends alot of strength to the deck. Maindeck, the 8 discard spells in addition to the CounterTop and FoW package is just extremely strong. Not only that, Lim-Dul's Vault is amazing... not only is it capable of digging for both Swan and/or CoP, it also works extremely well with an active Counterbalance (and, of course, it pitches to FoW).

I don't think the deck really needs to pack burn outside of CoP... there's not very much it is going to do as removal in this Goyf heavy meta and the deck doesn't need to use it as reach either. The only time I see it as valuable is after you drop Swan, where I do admit it is extremely strong. However, I doubt I'd be dropping Swan until I had access to CoP anyway.

I also don't like the Chrome Mox + SSG idea. I suppose that if I wanted to race the opponent, those could quicken the goldfish. However, I prefer the slower controllish route where I'm just controlling the stack the whole time until I'm able to go off. Most of the time, I'd drop Swan and pass the turn and then cast Chain + Conflagrate on the following turn. The heavy discard lets me know when I can and can't drop Swan while CounterTop allows me to drop Swan and keep it protected regardless.

I'm still debating about whether or not I want to fit in MD creature removal or not (like Shriekmaw, Damnation, etc).

As far as the sideboard goes, I have no clue. Cards like Extirpate and Dark Confidant sound like good candidates, while Tombstalker and Damnation seem like interesting options vs aggro/control. Shattering Spree, bounce, etc all sound good as well.

[Pulp_Fiction]

I am liking the aggro idea. As far as Conflagrate goes, a very good idea, but it opens the deck up to grave hate now. I think 2x Lightning Storm, 1x Seismic Assault should be all that is really necessary. Chalice of the Void seems very solid, drop Chalice at 1 and no more StP. I like Dilettante's deck idea without the Magus of the Moons. And Sunforger to search out Chain of Plasma, that is a really good idea. G/W/r Chalice aggro shell would probably work best.

[Aggro_zombies]

Real men use Mind over Matter plus Flame Fusillade.

If you're going the combo route, why not add Pact of Negation? Having 8 Force of Wills is never a bad thing, especially if you need to play around StP in response to Chain Lightning.

EDIT: Interesting list, Hanni, but how do you race Goyf? It seems like you lose if you can't get the combo fired off within the first few turns. Also, it gives your opponent time to build counter concentration while recovering from your discard. Actually, come to think of it, you lose if you can't stick a Swan and a Chain or the Counter-Top combo, which is difficult for you to do given that you're under pressure from a 3/4 or 4/5. Even if you resolve Counter-Top first and then try to resolve the Chain combo, you need to win that turn or the turn after because Threshold can just beat instead of playing spells. Also, what happens if they get Counter-Top first? It seems like the strongest plan when facing you is to race for the turn two CB with counter backup and then drop a Goyf or a Goose to smash face, because you're not going off earlier than turn five, probably later if they Stifle a fetchland or Wasteland something. Force as your only counter that can be played early is a bad idea, because Thresh simply has too many Unpleasant Things for you to deal with in the first few turns: Tarmogoyf, Goose, burn/Blood Moon/StP/opposing counters.

[Serbitar]

If Swan is your only creature another tutor could be Guided Passage. And (if already green) Worldly Tutor.

[Nihil Credo]

I fail to see why people are going for a straight-up single-plan combo deck with this thing. In this regard, it's no better than Mizzium/Vault, which is immune to StP and more easily tutorable/recurrable, not to mention infinite turns >>>> infinite cards since you don't need to cram free mana sources in the deck to fuel your win condition.

The beauty of Swan/Chain is that neither piece is dead on its own. Chain is a decent burn spell: you creatures are all immune to a single Bolt, so if you're going to get it chucked back at you it's by aggro decks who head for the dome, and Goblins won't even do that since they probably don't want to give you an improved Snuff Out (plus you're Red Thresh so you should pummel Goblins anyway, at least postboard). Swan is a very efficient evasive creature that turns your other burn spells (if you choose to run them) into Ancestral Recalls. Even the win condition can be a sometime-useful burn spell (Lightning Storm more so than Conflagrate), making this a very rare 2/6/0 combo.

So, what about we just take an UGR Counterbalance Thresh list, and fit the combo into it? Let's not even waste space for free mana: you're going to drop Swans on turn 4 at the earliest, so it's highly likely you'll have three open mana for Lightning Storm when you play the Chains. Since Swans is also an unkillable blocker, although with a drawback, waiting a turn is unlikely to cost you against aggro decks. Against control decks, where you need to plan for sweepers, the other plan (I wouldn't call it just a plan B) of "Red Thresh with 8 Bolts" is probably better; you can also just play the combo on your sixth land drop and pass the turn while holding enough Bolts to burn off your opponent.

Of course, none of the above are absolute statements, but I'd still say that the times where waiting a turn before the combo costs you the game will be rare enough to not warrant running shit like Lotus Petals.

17 lands

4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Swans of Bryn Argoll

4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain of Plasma

3 Counterbalance
4 Force of Will
4 Daze

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
3 Sensei's Divining Top

1 Lightning Storm

EDIT: Know what? I'm making a new thread for this approach. Let's leave this one for the straight-up combo versions.

[KillemallCFH]

Here's a suggestion to further discussion...

R/W Aggro w/ Combo

4x Swan Song
2x Eternal Dragon
2x Magus of the Tabernacle
4x Magus of the Moon
4x Simian Spirit Guide
3x Exalted Angel

2x Lightning Storm
1x Conflagurate
4x Chain of Plasma

3x Sunforger
4x Chalice of the Void
4x Chrome Mox

4x Plateau
2x Windswept Heath
2x Wooded Foothills
2x Mountain
5x Plains
4x Ancient Tomb
4x City of Traitors

EDIT - I'm not thinking *Scratches Aven MindcensorThis is actually pretty close to what I was thinking of. I.E. putting it in a Stompy shell w/ 2 mana-lands and Moxen. I would've done it slightly different though. Here's a proposed list off the top of my head:

4 Swan
3 Windborn Muse
4 Exalted Angel
4 Aven Mindcensor

3 Moat

1 Sword of Fire and Ice

4 Orim's Chant
2 Abeyance
4 Swords to Plowshares

4 Chain of Plasma
1 Conflagerate
1 Lightning Storm

4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Chrome Mox
4 Ancient Tomb
3 City of Traitors
3 Flooded Strand
2 Windswept Heath
3 Plateau
2 Plains

SB: Uhh... Probably the last 2 Abeyance. Maybe Abolish? I don't know here.

That list is pretty much just Phantom's Gargangel Stompy splashing red for the combo. 6 Chants for protection. A full 8 out of the board. And even if you end up not comboing and going aggro, the chants are far from dead cards (Upkeep, chant you with kicker, next turn swing FTW...).

[Nihil Credo]

Putting Plasma Swans into Gargangel Stompy is pretty damn awful.

For one, the deck has basically no draw. Now, this wouldn't be a problem if both pieces of the combo worked on their own, but unfortunately Chain of Plasma is terrible here since it can kill 50% of your creatures on the rebound; more if you consider morphed Angel. Not to mention Moat means that the opponent is likely to have a lot of dead cards to pitch.

Moreover, running Chants for protection forces you to drop Chalice, which is overall the better card. It also means that, against any deck running countermagic or StP (I'm guessing a big chunk of the field), you now have a three-card combo to draw into. Good luck.

[KillemallCFH]

Putting Plasma Swans into Gargangel Stompy is pretty damn awful.

For one, the deck has basically no draw. Now, this wouldn't be a problem if both pieces of the combo worked on their own, but unfortunately Chain of Plasma is terrible here since it can kill 50% of your creatures on the rebound; more if you consider morphed Angel. Not to mention Moat means that the opponent is likely to have a lot of dead cards to pitch.

Moreover, running Chants for protection forces you to drop Chalice, which is overall the better card. It also means that, against any deck running countermagic or StP (I'm guessing a big chunk of the field), you now have a three-card combo to draw into. Good luck.Point taken. For some reason it didn't really occur to me that your hand wouldn't always contain the combo... Please continue with your regularly scheduled suggestions of good decks.

[Sek'Kuar]

You know, normally I dislike combo decks, but I actually am very interested in this one...I may just have to pick it up. It seems to have something about it that other combo decks don't have.

[technogeek5000]

Im gonna echo Nihil here about the combo in gargangel stompy. You cant find either piece consistently and both pieces are very bad here on there own. Chain of plasma kills all of your creatures and Swan is a 4/3 for 4 with a considerable drawback because in a W Tomb/chalice aggro deck it cant reactively protect the creature like in UR/URX versions.

[Dilettante]

I cut Mindcensor from the R/W Aggro because it makes Sunforger useless... It's like a Rakdos Pit-Dragon and SoFI. Two great tastes that blend together like chocolate ice cream and hot sausage pizza.

Yeah, I guess Magus of the Moon can be relegated to sideboard and can potentially be something else board-affecting. Maybe even Stonecloaker.

Possible SB could be
4x Magus of the Moon
3x Tormod's Crypt
4x Orim's Chant
2x Red Elemental Blast
2x Pyroblast

[rufus]

I'm a little surprised that nobody's suggested a straight burn-out finish -- something like:

4xSSG
4xChrome Mox
4xLotus Petal

4xChain Lightning
4xLightning Bolt
4xFlame Strike
4xChain of Plasma

4x Swans of Bryn Argoll
4x Slithermuse
4x Browbeat

4x Volcanic Island
4x Steam Vents
2x Mountain
2x Island
8x Fetch

[Goaswerfraiejen]

I'm a little surprised that nobody's suggested a straight burn-out finish -- something like:

4xSSG
4xChrome Mox
4xLotus Petal

4xChain Lightning
4xLightning Bolt
4xFlame Strike
4xChain of Plasma

4x Swans of Bryn Argoll
4x Slithermuse
4x Browbeat

4x Tropical Island
4x Steam Vents
2x Mountain
2x Island
8x Fetch

I was goldfishing, and you really don't need that much burn. Lightning Bolts complemented by Conflagrate or hasty flying creatures (Swans, and perhaps large but grounded--or Wonder-ful--'Goyfs) does the job without trouble, and allows you to dedicate a number of slots to combo-protection.

[troopatroop]

4x Volcanic Island
4x Steam Vents


I think you mean volcanic

[Maveric78f]

What damn is Flame Strike ?

What about gamekeeper? You can CoP it and copy the CoP on the next gamekeeper or on the chicken if you're more lucky.

Hot or Not ? (swan => chicken => chick)

Combo: 14
4*Gamekeeper
4*Swan
4*CoP
1*Conflagerate
1*Lightning Storm

Additionnal Burn: 8
4*Lightning Bolt
4*Fire/Ice or Pyroclasm

Settlement: 8
4*Brainstorm
4*Serum Visions

Protection: 10
4*FoW
3*Misdirection
3*Blue Shoal

20 lands

I like my list. Maybe 1 bounce is needed against a random CoP (circle of protection this time...).

[Maveric78f]

Well I did not mean to put a final point to this thread. (strange, 3 pages in a few hours and nothing since my post...)

A small explanation about how it works with game keeper:
1/ Play CoV on gamekeeper
2/ gamekeeper is dealt 3 damages
3/ discard 1 card and copy it on myself
4/ gamekeeper is put into the yard as a SBE
5/ Trigger of gamekeeper on stack
6/ Trigger of gamekeeper resolves and finds either GK or Swan
7/ Resolution of the CoP copy. I am dealt 3 damages
8/ if GK has been revealed, go to 3/, otherwise it's swan and you can combo

Remarks of the list :
4*gamekeeper is maybe 1 or 2 too much. It may provoke some fizzles (if you reveal all your keepers before the swans)
Blue shoal is probably bad. I did not notice that the removed card had to be blue. Maybe Pact of negation in its place.
Lightning storm enables to combo in a graveyard hate environment
The idea is that once Swan is in play, you can draw a lot that with your burn spells and probably dig enough to find CoP, so that you don't need any tutor for it.

[rufus]

The game keeper is certainly a good way to get to the swan. It does add a color since the deck is now U or W (Swan), R (Chain of Plasma) and G (Game Keeper).

You could always play one game keeper with a couple of Summoner's Pacts. You can then also run Mystical Tutor to fetch Summoner's Pact/Chain of Plasma as a combo enabler and utility tutor.

I also wonder whether Chain lightning is superior to Lightning Bolt in swan combo decks.

There are plenty of ways for a deck like this to finish, the issue is really how to make the combo finish be resilient (although, since the original combo is already vulnerable to counters, that's relatively minor) and fit with the rest of the deck.

P.S. I meant to write Fireblast.

[Brehn]

1/ Play CoV on gamekeeper
2/ gamekeeper is dealt 3 damages
3/ discard 1 card and copy it on myself
4/ gamekeeper is put into the yard as a SBE
5/ Trigger of gamekeeper on stack
6/ Opponent plays Stifle on the Gamekeeper trigger
7/ Resolution of the CoP copy. I am dealt 3 damages


Fixed. You've just discarded a card, burnt your only creature to death and bolted yourself. I don't like this plan.

[Maveric78f]

Fixed. You've just discarded a card, burnt your only creature to death and bolted yourself. I don't like this plan.

That's not the main plan. It's just a synergic way to fetch Swan. If you smell the stifle, don't accelerate the combo. The STPs/counterspells spent on keepers are not spent on a swan, and stifle included decks are rarely aggro decks that fly over game keeper so that you can sit behind keeper the time to find a better hand. Then end of opponent turn brainstorm putting swan on top of library. Then bolt of keeper. If stifled it's 1 bolt for 1 stifle nothing awful and you can play swan behind (or another copy of keeper).

I don't sea how to play summoner's pact as I need 9 mana from that moment to kill within my turn.

[Sek'Kuar]

You may just have to stick with FoW.

[rufus]

I don't see how to play summoner's pact as I need 9 mana from that moment to kill within my turn.

I'm still thinking in terms of a deck with Chrome Mox, Lotus Petal, or other acceleration - that brings the requirement down to 6 mana in order to combo out. The upkeep cost on the Summoner's Pact is also very close to the CC of the game keeper, and you're playing no-cc counters, so it should also be playable as a somewhat risky 4-cc sorcery speed tutor.

[Happy Gilmore]

Here is a new one for you:

4x Swan
4x Storm Entity

3x Pyrokinesis
4x Force of Will
3x Misdirection
4x Brainstorm
4x Rite of Flame
4x Ponder
4x Chain of Plasma
4x Daze

3x Volcanic Island
1x Taiga
1x Tropical Island
3x Island
4x Delta
3x Strand
4x Lotus Petal
3x Ancient Tomb

SB:
4x Blood Moon
4x Chalice of the Void
4x REB
3x Krosan Grip

[URABAHN]

4x Storm Entity

Why? How big are you planning to make it?

[Nihil Credo]

I think Happy Gilmore believes that copies of Chain of Plasma are played. They're not.

[Willoe]

Is it really necessary to play acceleration? Can't you just control-combo? Look at my list. I call it Semidarity. Why? It simply goes (almost) off at instant speed.

Hot Wings

4 fireblast
4 thunderclap
4 pyrokinesis
2 chain of plasma

4 simian spirit guide
1 desperate ritual
1 lightning storm

4 swans of bryn argoll

4 brainstorm
4 force of will
3 impulse
1 Intuition
4 cunning wish

4 flooded strand
2 wooded foothills
4 volcanic island
3 steam vents
4 mountain
3 island

SB:
1 wipe away
1 sudden shock
1 thunderbolt
1 stroke of genius
1 rebuild
1 pact of negation
1 echoing truth
1 intuition
3 red elemental blast
4 pyroblast

With the wishboard included, you can pretty much answer any hate to your deck. While this deck is relatively counterbalance resistant, it's not that fast. The earliest you can expect to go off is turn 3 with Simian Spirit Guide acceleration.

Why do I only play 2 chain of plasma? The chances of drawing it midcombo must be greater than to draw it in your opening hand. I play this deck because the deck can win with burn too. How? You simply use free burn at instant to draw more cards, eventually drawing into SSG*2 and Chain of Plasma, shouldn't be that hard with 12 burn spells that draws a lot of cards for you. When you've assembled the chain of plasma, play it via. SSG*2, draw your deck, remove 2 SSG, play desperate ritual, Lightning Storm, backed up by 4 force of will and 1 misdirection. It should be enough.

The advantage of playing this build is your immunity to creature removal. With that, you're only immune to force of will. I think that is very strong. The fact that you draw a shitload of cards ONCE you played the swan (because you don't pass priority the moment it comes into play) and therefore draw a lots of blue cards and FoWs makes your victory only depending on your luck. If your opponent casts a STP, then you response by playing i.e. pyrokinesis, let it resolve, play another burn spell. When you've played Chain of Plasma, let STP resolve so that the opponent can't benefit from the swans' ability. Draw your deck, destroy your opponent. Simple as that. Your library/hand should look like this when it's empty.
9 lands, 4 fow's, 4 cunning wish, rest red spells to backup your win.

Virtually, you simply goldfish which is a VERY strong advantage due to the consistensy of the deck. 4 ancestrals, 8 draw 4's, 7 diggers, 4 wishes, 1 tutor, 2 draw your deck and 4 pieces of protection plus the 4 wishes makes it out for this deck. In fact, I've considered Pact of Negation because everything that you need to protect is the playing of your swan. Maybe 4 fow is a little low. I could also do it like 4 intuition, 4 fow, 4 pact, 4 brainstorm but that's a little inconsistent and also folds to extirpate.

Anyway, this is my build. Remember, this is built mainly for experiment, so please, no hard flames. I haven't tested whether I have enough mountains to run both Thunderclap AND Fireblast, but I think so :D It's mainly therefore that so many mountains are included so that you don't fetch into nothing late game. Remember, once you've played the swans, you can even response to LETHAL damage. Just like Solidarity. Therefore, superior cards like Flameshot can't be run, sadly.

[Happy Gilmore]

I think Happy Gilmore believes that copies of Chain of Plasma are played. They're not.

I already checked this, and I am well aware that it doesnt count. Its irrelevant. Since you end up playing a bunch of lotus petals, Rite of Flames, pyros, and maybe even FoW or Misdirection the first one comes into play as a 7/7 or better, the second as and 8/8, etc. with the 3 points of damage done by the last copy of Chain of Plasma they will be at 17 life max. 2 or 3 Storm Entities is GG (don't forget that swan hits for 4 in the air as well).

The reason I chose Storm Entity over conflag is so that you don't get into a situation of being all in on one spell. Instead of discarding your hand you can hold them for counterspells. I am trying to make more of an agro control deck with a combo finish.

My SB doesn't make any sense though, after thinking about it here is what I would play

4x Blood Moon
3x Krosan Grip
4x REB
4? (Chalice weakened the combo too much)

But after reading lightning storm, I can see why that would be a better kill condition.

[Happy Gilmore]

I missed the whole discission about Lightning storm, that card is way better than the other win conditions...You can't stop it.

4x Swan
2x Lightning Storm

4x Pyrokinesis
4x Force of Will
3x Misdirection
4x Brainstorm
4x Rite of Flame
4x Ponder
4x Chain of Plasma
4x Daze

3x Volcanic Island
1x Taiga
1x Tropical Island
3x Island
4x Delta
3x Strand
4x Simian Spirit Guide
4x Ancient Tomb


I still really like Blood Moon in the SB. REB is good as well, but other than that the rest of the slots are up for grabs.

[Goaswerfraiejen]

I already checked this, and I am well aware that it doesnt count. Its irrelevant. Since you end up playing a bunch of lotus petals, Rite of Flames, pyros, and maybe even FoW or Misdirection the first one comes into play as a 7/7 or better, the second as and 8/8, etc. with the 3 points of damage done by the last copy of Chain of Plasma they will be at 17 life max. 2 or 3 Storm Entities is GG (don't forget that swan hits for 4 in the air as well).

The reason I chose Storm Entity over conflag is so that you don't get into a situation of being all in on one spell. Instead of discarding your hand you can hold them for counterspells. I am trying to make more of an agro control deck with a combo finish.



Why not run a single Anger and a single Wonder? If you're also playing Tarmogoyf or Nimble Mongoose, that'll translate to more damage when you combo off, and so you wouldn't even need the finisher card, really. It also allows you to play something much closer to straight-thresh in the early game.

On the other hand, it winds up using a few slots than the strict Swans/Goyf/Conflagrate route. Whatever. They all wind up working, I think, but personally I'm leaning towards (at least) Anger, and maybe even Wonder in a more strictly Threshold shell.

[Dilettante]

And this... is yet another brainstorm... 3 different combos... well, really 2.5. You can dump your hand to Chain of Plasma'ing your Stuffy Doll.

4x Stuffy Doll
4x Swans of Bryn Argoll
4x Simian Spirit Guide

4x Enlightened Tutor
1x Moat
1x Blood Moon
4x Rolling Earthquake
4x Guilty Conscience
4x Chain of Plasma
1x Lightning Storm
1x Conflagrate

1x Defense Grid
4x Chrome Mox
2x Lotus Petal

4x City of Traitors
4x Ancient Tomb
4x Plateau
2x Wooded Foothills
2x Windswept Heath
1x Mountain
4x Plains


Sideboard
3x Blood Moon
3x Moat
4x Exalted Angel
3x Pyroblast
1x Seal of Cleansing


P.S. Though it isn't a win... Guilty Conscience on Swans is still Swing 4, Draw 4...

[Happy Gilmore]

And this... is yet another brainstorm... 3 different combos... well, really 2.5. You can dump your hand to Chain of Plasma'ing your Stuffy Doll.

4x Stuffy Doll
4x Swans of Bryn Argoll
4x Simian Spirit Guide

4x Enlightened Tutor
1x Moat
1x Blood Moon
4x Rolling Earthquake
4x Guilty Conscience
4x Chain of Plasma
1x Lightning Storm
1x Conflagrate

1x Defense Grid
4x Chrome Mox
2x Lotus Petal

4x City of Traitors
4x Ancient Tomb
4x Plateau
2x Wooded Foothills
2x Windswept Heath
1x Mountain
4x Plains


Sideboard
3x Blood Moon
3x Moat
4x Exalted Angel
3x Pyroblast
1x Seal of Cleansing


P.S. Though it isn't a win... Guilty Conscience on Swans is still Swing 4, Draw 4...

You sir are afflicted with the "danger of cool things"

[Dilettante]

You sir are afflicted with the "danger of cool things"

And you sir... are correct. It is just a brainstorming exercise to generate ideas... Perhaps someone can see something I can not? Which I am sure is plenty. The cards have more interactions than simply Chain of Plasma... Pariah, anyone? Unfortunately, that would only work as a combo with Swans that goes off the turn Pariah hits play or... your opponent wins... Sword of Fire and Ice can allow you to deal 6 and draw 3? Flametongue Kavu is a slightly less dead card?

[georgjorge]

I think the best ones have already been named: Lightning Axe, Pyrokinesis, Seismic Assault.

[Willoe]

Not to sound misunderstood, depressed or anything, but has my post been completely oversought?

[zulander]

Could try a ug madness shell that splashes red for plasma, you can go aggro and then combo out and discard your hand to mongrel for the win.

[rufus]

Not to sound misunderstood, depressed or anything, but has my post been completely oversought?

I think people are all just off in their own little world. Considering that Swan is a pretty reasonable beater in its own right, and that it represents a potential card disadvantage, I'd expect that Swan does better in more agressively oriented combo decks.

[midnightAce]

Just something to keep in mind, that if the combo is built into an aggro shell, while 4cc for 4/3 evasive beater is sexy, the fact that random red.dec (Red thresh, Red Death, Sligh, other random red varients) can turn their bolts into Ancestral Recall for them is not sexy at all. Not to mention cycling Gemplam = draw a card for each goblin in play + 1?

So in an aggro shell, can the deck really risk playing the Swan early without Chain in hand? In that respect, I much prefer this in a control/combo shell. Capable of comboing early with FoW backup or comboing late game with stable control of the board seems a lot safer.

[troopatroop]

Just something to keep in mind, that if the combo is built into an aggro shell, while 4cc for 4/3 evasive beater is sexy, the fact that random red.dec (Red thresh, Red Death, Sligh, other random red varients) can turn their bolts into Ancestral Recall for them is not sexy at all. Not to mention cycling Gemplam = draw a card for each goblin in play + 1?

So in an aggro shell, can the deck really risk playing the Swan early without Chain in hand? In that respect, I much prefer this in a control/combo shell. Capable of comboing early with FoW backup or comboing late game with stable control of the board seems a lot safer.

My counter to this argument would be that, while an opponent wielding burn becomes much more dangerous, playing burn yourself guarantees that advantage for yourself every single game. Situations where your opponent has burn, will be less likely than situations where your opponent doesn't. In the meantime, I'll have my lightning bolts be recalls. Seems amazing to me. This topic depends on the metagame of course.

[Oriflamme]

The problem with a burn based model, it would seem, is that you have to pay 4 mana at sorcery speed to put the base of the engine into play. That A) gives your opponent first opportunity to best utilize his mana & damage and B) means that STP becomes even more of an issue as it effectively neutralizes what you have tried to accomplish. What decks in the format would Swan + heavy burn be able to outmaneuver effectively?

[goldenj]

Against a deck playing swords, you just need to play at 6 mana with Chain in hand. You don't have to initiate, and that forces them to have two swords.

I'm not sure the Stuffy Doll is a 4-of, but I like the idea of at least one as a backup. The burnsuite gives a pretty solid defense till combo shows up.

I was wondering if the combo could go into a ScepterChant deck, with abeyance/chant protecting the swan, copying the key instants, etc.

[Maagler]

Against a deck playing swords, you just need to play at 6 mana with Chain in hand. You don't have to initiate, and that forces them to have two swords.

I'm not sure the Stuffy Doll is a 4-of, but I like the idea of at least one as a backup. The burnsuite gives a pretty solid defense till combo shows up.

I was wondering if the combo could go into a ScepterChant deck, with abeyance/chant protecting the swan, copying the key instants, etc.

I have been playing around with a ScepterChant version but it is not very good. I think that it is too slow IMO.

[rodgon666]

show and tell...

defense grid main...

you can go in soo many ways about this deck its not even funny. once you start drawing you cant loose. you have forces and dazes! after you draw your deck how are they going to get past that?... it seems like you only need to go off the kill is a given.

[deadlock]

I dont know if somebody has already mentioned that you could integrate the combo in a UR counterburn shell with Wee Dragonauts as a main/backup plan. It looks very synergistic on paper.
There were several more or less succesfull attempts to build such a deck in the past and Swans would only make it stronger.

[Willoe]

A local team called 1900 hrs created a deck that abused Wee Dragonauts. Don't know if it won any large tournaments, though. Anyway, here it is:
http://essentialmagic.com//Decks/View.asp?ID=577704

About Wee Dragonauts: A little beater for 10 cent that can be just as explosive as a tarmogoyf and it flies impresses me. Plus, Psychotic Fury combos VERY nicely with it. With a fireblast, 2 bolts and the fury, the game's yours. In turn 4 ! :D

Back to reality. Creating a deck that won on Swans/Wee with or without Psychotic Fury might be good. I'll fire up a sketch on MWS and see how it performs. Something like

4 swans
4 wee

4 lightning bolt
4 chain lightning
3 fireblast
1 conflagarate
4 chain of plasma

4 brainstorm
4 ponder
4 impulse
4 force of will

4 wooded foothills
4 polluted delta
4 volcanic island
5 island
3 mountain

SB:
4 red elemental blast
2 tormod's crypt
2 engineered explosives
4 shattering spree
3 psychotic fury

or something like that. I don't know.

[Happy Gilmore]

Been working on this for a couple of days now. I was thinking back to playing flash (which this deck is obviously not) and came up with this.
4x Swan
4x Chain of Plasma
2x Lightning Storm

4x Force of Will
4x Daze
4x Counterbalance
1x REB

4x Brainstorm
4x Ponder
3x SDT
3x Mystical Tutor
1x Pyroclasm
1x Krosan Grip

2x Delta
2x Strand
4x Wooded Foothills
2x Tropical Island
3x Volcanic Island
1x Forest
3 x Islands
4x Lotus Petal

SB:
4x Tarmogoyf
4x Blood Moon
2x Pyroclasm
1x Echoing Truth
2x Ancient Grudge
1x Krosan Grip
1x REB
1x BEB

Its a hybrid deck that has the capability of easily turning into an agro control deck games 2 and three. Not tested or perfected, but I like the feel of it.

[Nihil Credo]

Been working on this for a couple of days now. I was thinking back to playing flash (which this deck is obviously not) and came up with this.
4x Swan
4x Chain of Plasma
2x Lightning Storm

4x Force of Will
4x Daze
4x Counterbalance
1x REB

4x Brainstorm
4x Ponder
3x SDT
3x Mystical Tutor
1x Pyroclasm
1x Krosan Grip

2x Delta
2x Strand
4x Wooded Foothills
2x Tropical Island
3x Volcanic Island
1x Forest
3 x Islands
4x Lotus Petal

SB:
4x Tarmogoyf
4x Blood Moon
2x Pyroclasm
1x Echoing Truth
2x Ancient Grudge
1x Krosan Grip
1x REB
1x BEB

Its a hybrid deck that has the capability of easily turning into an agro control deck games 2 and three. Not tested or perfected, but I like the feel of it.

Heh. Keep working on that deck and my money is that you'll end up with Bryn Argoll Thresh (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=9096). You can't tell me that - Petals/Mystical Tutor package, +Geese/Goyfs/Bolts doesn't look tempting.

[Happy Gilmore]

Heh. Keep working on that deck and my money is that you'll end up with Bryn Argoll Thresh (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=9096). You can't tell me that - Petals/Mystical Tutor package, +Geese/Goyfs/Bolts doesn't look tempting.

It does, but I feel that your going to get more consistent results by focusing on the combo game one and a different approach games 2 and 3 (aka. agro control). It will keep the opponent on their toes. This approach worked very well for me when I played flash at the GP. I would crush everyone game 1 and then board into Negators and Efreets games 2 and 3. All of their hate would be dead and I steam roled them with 5/5 beats.

[Pinder]

It does, but I feel that your going to get more consistent results by focusing on the combo game one and a different approach games 2 and 3 (aka. agro control). It will keep the opponent on their toes. This approach worked very well for me when I played flash at the GP. I would crush everyone game 1 and then board into Negators and Efreets games 2 and 3. All of their hate would be dead and I steam roled them with 5/5 beats.

And then he got 16th. And $750. I also think that the fact that the combo is so compact makes it ideal for either the balls-to-the-wall combo approach, or sticking it in as an incidental combo win in another deck. But really, why not do both? Keep in mind that the version of Flash that won GP Columbus had a board plan that turned it into a slightly suboptimal version of Gro. Of course, when your opponent is gunning for Flash, shitty Gro will still beat them (and a lot of the time, so will Flash :tongue:).

The combo package for this is at most what, 10 cards (4 Swan, 4 Chain, 1 Conflagrate, 1 Lightning Storm)? That leaves 5 dedicated board cards if you wanted to be able to board the whole combo. A little overlap (replacing Magma Jets with Chains in the main, for example) can free up even more room in the board. I mean, if you run Chains in the MD and then just switch out your finishers for Swans and a couple other cards for Lighting Storm/Conflagrate, you could really have the Red Thresh game plan available to you (mostly) in both games, but with an extra combo finish they may not have seen coming.

Reading back through my post, I realize that I pretty much just agree with Nihil on the whole, but think that it should be carried out a little differently.

[Happy Gilmore]

And then he got 16th. And $750. I also think that the fact that the combo is so compact makes it ideal for either the balls-to-the-wall combo approach, or sticking it in as an incidental combo win in another deck. But really, why not do both? Keep in mind that the version of Flash that won GP Columbus had a board plan that turned it into a slightly suboptimal version of Gro. Of course, when your opponent is gunning for Flash, shitty Gro will still beat them (and a lot of the time, so will Flash :tongue:).

The combo package for this is at most what, 10 cards (4 Swan, 4 Chain, 1 Conflagrate, 1 Lightning Storm)? That leaves 5 dedicated board cards if you wanted to be able to board the whole combo. A little overlap (replacing Magma Jets with Chains in the main, for example) can free up even more room in the board. I mean, if you run Chains in the MD and then just switch out your finishers for Swans and a couple other cards for Lighting Storm/Conflagrate, you could really have the Red Thresh game plan available to you (mostly) in both games, but with an extra combo finish they may not have seen coming.

Reading back through my post, I realize that I pretty much just agree with Nihil on the whole, but think that it should be carried out a little differently.

When you look at my list you should see some simmilarites between it and Sadin's winning build. Basically thats what I am trying to come up with, but of course, its costs 6 not 2.

[rodgon666]

not every deck needs COUNTERTOP!!!...

just play thresh or MUC if you want to play that. IMO.

[URABAHN]

not every deck needs COUNTERTOP!!!...

just play thresh or MUC if you want to play that. IMO.

Do you not like Countertop in Swan Combo? Why? Do you think the more combo route is the way to go? Would you prefer to stuff the deck with cards like Simian Spirit Guide and Chrome Mox?

[Happy Gilmore]

not every deck needs COUNTERTOP!!!...

just play thresh or MUC if you want to play that. IMO.

What are the two cards this deck fears as far as hate? REB and Swords to Plowshares. CB counters both along with some other random hate. Also with Mystical Tutor you have another three ways of putting the right cc on top of the deck. This is the right place for CB. Turn 1 CB is good I hear.

[Nightmare]

Article coming soon.

[Happy Gilmore]

Article coming soon.

Great....Thanks for driving up the prices of swan. I appricate that nightmare. Can you alteast wait till after the release? Save me some money ok?

[Nightmare]

Great....Thanks for driving up the prices of swan. I appricate that nightmare. Can you alteast wait till after the release? Save me some money ok?Nah, just snag a set at the Pre-re this weekend. I still have to get my own set. Finding foils before the release is a pain.

I did buy eBay out of foil Chains, though.

[Happy Gilmore]

Nah, just snag a set at the Pre-re this weekend. I still have to get my own set. Finding foils before the release is a pain.

I did buy eBay out of foil Chains, though.

Know what is really humorous? You can combo off just with Lightning Storm instead of Chains if you have more lands/counters in hand than your opponent.

[Pinder]

Know what is really humorous? You can combo off just with Lightning Storm instead of Chains if you have more lands/counters in hand than your opponent.

How? You play Lightning Storm, discard a bunch of lands, draw some cards, and....find Chain of Plasma? I can't see how Lightning Storm could go infy.

[Nightmare]

How? You play Lightning Storm, discard a bunch of lands, draw some cards, and....find Chain of Plasma? I can't see how Lightning Storm could go infy.You use 2x Storms. The first one draws a bunch of cards when targetted at the Swan, the second kills the opponent.

[Happy Gilmore]

I missread Lightning Storm originally, I thought it made copies of itself and didn't simply change the targets. So what Nightmare said is correct, but this makes Lightning Storm somewhat worse than I thought at first.

However, because you are always to controler of the spell even if an opponent redirects it to the Swan you are still the one to draw the cards.

I can't help but think there is are better win conditions than Lightning Storm.

[m03]

I can't help but think there is are better win conditions than Lightning Storm.

Land's Edge or Seismic Assault? Granted, they accomplish 3 less damage, but running one of them as a 1-of beside Lightning Storm could serve as a decent alternate kill, and they're slightly less risky.

Seimic's RRR cost might be a bit tough though.


Another idea would be to build it around a deck that ran several useful 0-cast artifacts (Lotus Petal, Moxes, etc), along with 2 copies of Brain Freeze. Just a thought.

[Happy Gilmore]

Land's Edge or Seismic Assault? Granted, they accomplish 3 less damage, but running one of them as a 1-of beside Lightning Storm could serve as a decent alternate kill, and they're slightly less risky.

Seimic's RRR cost might be a bit tough though.


Another idea would be to build it around a deck that ran several useful 0-cast artifacts (Lotus Petal, Moxes, etc), along with 2 copies of Brain Freeze. Just a thought.

I think Land's Edge would be a lot better than a second Lightning Storm. I just worry about not having enough lands in the deck left to kill the opponent.

[Pinder]

I think Land's Edge would be a lot better than a second Lightning Storm. I just worry about not having enough lands in the deck left to kill the opponent.

There's always the Conflagrate kill, but as has been mentioned it's weak against Leyline/Extirpate/what have you.

[Nihil Credo]

I think Land's Edge would be a lot better than a second Lightning Storm. I just worry about not having enough lands in the deck left to kill the opponent.
You can finish them off with Chains of Plasma just as easily ;)

Also, Lightning Storm is better than Land's Edge or Assault. While playing BAThresh, I've used LS multiple times as just a Bolt (and in one memorable occasion I killed a red Akroma with it against a hellbent opponent).

[Happy Gilmore]

There's always the Conflagrate kill, but as has been mentioned it's weak against Leyline/Extirpate/what have you.

More and more I am liking Nihil's thresh list. I am finding that the combo may not be strong enough to stand on its own. This is no flash.

that being said, it needs a little tweeking.

[Willoe]

You can finish them off with Chains of Plasma just as easily ;)

No, Chain of Plasma can't do that. If you target your opponent, he will get to choose whether to discard or don't discard.

Am I right?:confused:

[Goaswerfraiejen]

No, Chain of Plasma can't do that. If you target your opponent, he will get to choose whether to discard or don't discard.

Am I right?:confused:

Indeed. I don't think that's what he meant, however. You only need one Chain to go off, meaning that you'll usually have three left in the deck. You can target your opponent with your last chain, and unless you're really low on life, odds are he won't copy it. If he does, you can choose to target him again. You proceed to target him with the other Chains that you draw, and with a few Lightning Bolts, and there you have it. You've won. Using your last Chain copy on your opponent also allows you to cast a smaller Conflagrate or Lightning Storm, which is cool.

[Willoe]

I see :)

However, will people make this decks as raw Combo, aggro-combo or control-combo? What is the best type, and last but notl least, which type fights threshold best?

[diffy]

I'm currently more leaning towards control-combo: the concept is too slow and too vulnerable to be pure combo.
I've basically started off Nihil's NQG list (http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=9096). The Threshold shell is nice and all, but in my testing, I've found the land count to be a way too low to consistently support Swans, even with all the cantrips - and Nimble Mongoose was always underwhelming: I just never wanted to cast him because I had other, better, things to do like digging for the missing combo piece or controlling the board.
I had all sorts of stuff in the Nimble Mongoose aka. additional creatures slot for a short while (Werebear, Fledgling Drake, Sea Drake, Serendib Efreet...) and I didn't like a single one of them: you just don't need that many creatures if you have a strong enough control plan or reach to supplement your beatdown plan (just like Tempo Thrash doesn't need more than 8 creatures because of reach and disruption).

Here's my current list (based strongly on Nihil's):



/// Maindeck (60 cards)

// Lands (21)
3 Wooded Foothills (http://magiccards.info/on/en/330.html)
3 Flooded Strand (http://magiccards.info/on/en/316.html)
3 Polluted Delta (http://magiccards.info/on/en/321.html)
4 Volcanic Island (http://magiccards.info/be/en/302.html)
3 Tropical Island (http://magiccards.info/be/en/299.html)
4 Island (http://magiccards.info/apac/en/12.html)
1 Forest (http://magiccards.info/apac/en/11.html)

// Creatures (8)
4 Tarmogoyf (http://magiccards.info/fut/en/153.html)
4 Swans of Bryn Argoll (http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=68567&d=1207024026)

// Card Advantage (10)
3 Ponder (http://magiccards.info/lw/en/79.html)
4 Brainstorm (http://magiccards.info/mm/en/61.html)
3 Sensei's Divining Top (http://magiccards.info/chk/en/268.html)

// Permission (9)
4 Counterbalance (http://magiccards.info/cs/en/31.html)
1 Counterspell (http://magiccards.info/be/en/55.html)
4 Force of Will (http://magiccards.info/ai/en/42.html)

// Removal (12)
4 Lightning Bolt (http://magiccards.info/be/en/163.html)
4 Chain of Plasma (http://magiccards.info/on/en/193.html)
1 Lightning Storm (http://magiccards.info/cs/en/89.html)
2 Repeal (http://magiccards.info/gp/en/32.html)
1 Engineered Explosives (http://magiccards.info/5dn/en/118.html)

/// Sideboard (15 cards)
4 Blood Moon (http://magiccards.info/dk/en/57.html)
4 Tormod's Crypt (http://magiccards.info/dk/en/109.html)
4 Pyroclasm (http://magiccards.info/ia/en/214.html)
2 Krosan Grip (http://magiccards.info/ts/en/202.html)
1 Trygon Predator (http://magiccards.info/di/en/133.html)


I basically took out Nimble Mongoose (under performing) and Daze. Daze wasn't all that great either during my tests as you always want to ramp up to quite a lot of mana to abuse the Swans (making CA out of them without having to pass a turn if you expect an opposing removal) and your CounterTop engine. Missing a land drop started to hurt and the effect was diminishing because I was always aiming for the lategame.
The current list is a little random (the one Counterspell especially) but plays extremely well and literally pulls wins out of no-where - which is totally awesome - but doesn't need the combo to win as you can just as well go beatdown backed up by Counterbalance (that's what NQG normally does, right?). The missing creatures are replaced by additional reach in burn so that , overall, you don't loose a lot of your aggressiveness.
The Repeals are awesome taking care of anything that hurts prior to combo-ing off or as nice tempo cards.
The singleton Explosives is for anything the burn can't take care of - but mainly as a bullet that is awesome when you draw it but that you don't need in order to function well (you can always cantrip into it). It is also useful to take care of multiple permanents that would prevent you from killing your opponent via Lightning Storm.

[Willoe]

I like it! Goyf being a walking wall with a kill condition that can be pulled of at turn 5. Did that sentence make sense? If not, I meant that Goyf holds back Goyf while you dig for your chain swan combo. Won't great play be: Turn 1, fetchland, SDT, pass. Turn 2, Counterbalance, pass. Turn 3, Goyf and Lightning Bolt to slaughter any dude. Turn 4, if you can manage it, Swans, pass. Turn 5, your last land (obv.) Chain, draw your deck, Lightning Storm (of course backed up by several FoWs). Am I right?

Goldfising aside, I think the deck need acceleration in 3 simian spirit guide. Why? The fact that you can actually hardcast this grey ogre and going solidarity mode by killing the opponent in response to a counterbalance and such makes makes the chain swan combo really good. With swans in play and two lands untapped, you can chain, draw your deck, remove 3 spirit guides and play lightning storm. If you want really to go solidarity mode, add 1 Desperate Ritual and 1 Simian Spirit Guide.

And while I say Solidarity, I of course mean to go off at instant speed. I think this is a very great advantage.

[Nihil Credo]

List
- Cutting Daze: This seems perfectly reasonable to me. My next step (if I hadn't focused all my testing on Dragon Stompy for the rest of the month) would have been to go down to 3 Swans, since I too found the curve to be somewhat high. Going up to 20ish lands and cutting Daze seems just as valid of a pick.

- Cutting Mongoose: Slightly less so, particularly for the sake of the Landstill and Goblins matchup. Of course, one could argue that Blood Moon and Pyroclasms in the side should counterbalance this.

- Cutting a cantrip: This I find highly debatable. I would criticize any Thresh list that ran less than 11 between cantrips and Tops in the first place, and this is no different, especially with a built-in combo. Two Repeals don't equal a Ponder in terms of digging.

- One-ofs: Generally, the less aggro a deck is and the more draw magic it runs, the more I like running utility options. However, in this case there is another consideration: how much do you really need utility cards when you have a two-card combo in the deck?

[Happy Gilmore]

- Cutting Daze: This seems perfectly reasonable to me. My next step (if I hadn't focused all my testing on Dragon Stompy for the rest of the month) would have been to go down to 3 Swans, since I too found the curve to be somewhat high. Going up to 20ish lands and cutting Daze seems just as valid of a pick.

- Cutting Mongoose: Slightly less so, particularly for the sake of the Landstill and Goblins matchup. Of course, one could argue that Blood Moon and Pyroclasms in the side should counterbalance this.

- Cutting a cantrip: This I find highly debatable. I would criticize any Thresh list that ran less than 11 between cantrips and Tops in the first place, and this is no different, especially with a built-in combo. Two Repeals don't equal a Ponder in terms of digging.

- One-ofs: Generally, the less aggro a deck is and the more draw magic it runs, the more I like running utility options. However, in this case there is another consideration: how much do you really need utility cards when you have a two-card combo in the deck?

Thats funny, I came to nearly exactly the same conclusions after testing your thresh build. It was solid, all I did was cut one Swan for 1 land and I adjusted the manabase a bit.

3 Volcanic Island
3 Tropical Island
3 Island
1 Forest
2 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
4 Wooded Foothills

Its the best manabase you can come up with at 18 lands. Also, when you take out Swans post board you normally take out the 18th land as well.

This doesn't solve my issue though, I need to find a better win condition than Lightning Storm and Conflagurate. Can anyone come up with something better?

[Willoe]

I don't know if it's any better, but you can kill with Inner Fire followed up by either Double Urza's Rage or Demonfire. It just takes a bit slots in the deck :/

[Happy Gilmore]

I don't know if it's any better, but you can kill with Inner Fire followed up by either Double Urza's Rage or Demonfire. It just takes a bit slots in the deck :/

I just realized that you could also kill with Inner Calm, Outer Strengh. Although it may not be better than the other options since it requires a creature.

[Bardo]

Great....Thanks for driving up the prices of swan. I appricate that nightmare. Can you alteast wait till after the release? Save me some money ok?

You can pre-order off SCG (http://sales.starcitygames.com/) after the pre-release (like, tomorrow) and just wait until the release date for them to ship. That's how I get most of the good cards immediately after the pre-release. Blackborder (http://www.blackborder.com/) should have their stash up on Thursday or Friday -- same deal on delayed shipping (though, shipping will be $0.60 at BB, instead of $1.50 - $2.50 at SCG).

[Willoe]

I just found the card!

It's 3R, it's a Sorcery... And it's Arcane!

It's...

*astonished crowd*

Spiraling Embers!

Requires 4 simian spirit guide to go off on the turn you draw it, but really kicks ass! Remember that this card could be a 4-of in the deck to burn the swan digging for that chain of plasma. What do you think?

It's the 2nd best kill condition. I think that Lightning Storm is the best, since it deals enourmous damage to fight minor lifegain and is (most importantly) pulled off at instant speed.

[Soulles]

Hi

I'll be trying the following deck with this swan card, not sure if anyone thought of it yet. Have to say i am a dedicated MUC player for the past 2 years and won some big tournament and made few top8s. So i will try to stick to the control aspect

Creatures
3x Swan
4x Meddling mage

Enchantments
4x Energy field
4xSun-and-Moon Wheel

Spells
4x Chain of plasma
4x Impulse
4x Swords to plowshare

Counters
4x Force spike
4x Counterspell
4x Force of Will

Land
1x Wooded Foothills
4x Flooded Strand
4x Polluted delta
2x Volcanic Island
4x Tundra
2x Mountain
1x Island
5x Plain

So what is the idea of this deck?
First i always liked the concept of Energy field. it suits the color blue so well! To bad it never stays long in game. When i saw the spoiler about sun-and-moon wheel card, i was filled with joy! A turn 2 enchantment with a repalcement effect. First thing i said, i have to make a blue/white control deck with those 2 enchantments!! (EF and Sun-moon). Either way this will be my primary goal!

My curiousity increased though when i met the swan +chain combo. It's a fun combo but needs mana and at least 5 turns it seems. Which can be slow (especially vs combo)

I figured i try to see if the first goal can be combined with the second goal. So what is the plan with this deck?

The first thing i guess is establishing the 2 enchantment combo. This will make you totally immune to goblins or any other aggro decks. If that happens, keep your counters for possible removal of the enchantments.

Few turns later you drop a swan if all goes accordingly. With that you can EOT opponents turn with chain of plasma. This gives you the possiblty to nearly draw your entire deck! Since it's EOT of opponent turn, you may keep all the fun cards!.

At your turn, you can swing with a swan for 4 and chain of plasma the opponent. if he conspires, it's no big deal ,since you can do the same with 40 cards in your hand and hit opponent for another 3 damage.

the fun part is that you discard your hand to an amount of 7 cards at the end of your turn. This means keep the counters and one chain in hand to go off on opponent next turn again.

And because discarding doesn't really do much(everything goes to library again) you can basically play with your deck every turn!

Will be fun testing this hehe!!

[adrieng]

I havent tested the deck but has anyone tryed this combo in a standstill U/R/X deck?

[Top Deck]

The way i see the deck is it should be a blue/red counter burn deck.

I would run 4 Simian Spirit Guides, 1 Conflagrate, and 4 FOWs with 4 Pact of Negations.

You drop out swan and then cast chain of plasma. you should be able to draw your whole deck (or close to it) and you should be able to get 1 conflagrate into the yard (probably ditched one to copy chain) and have 2 simian spirit guides in hand.

you go ahead and pitch your whole hand to conflag holding 3-4 pact of negations in hand...

[Dark_Cynic87]

So has the whole 2x Dakmor Salvage and Seismic assault with Swans thing been deemed a bad way to go because it's needle-able?

[andreotti16]

I'm currently more leaning towards control-combo: the concept is too slow and too vulnerable to be pure combo.
I've basically started off Nihil's NQG list (http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=9096). The Threshold shell is nice and all, but in my testing, I've found the land count to be a way too low to consistently support Swans, even with all the cantrips - and Nimble Mongoose was always underwhelming: I just never wanted to cast him because I had other, better, things to do like digging for the missing combo piece or controlling the board.
I had all sorts of stuff in the Nimble Mongoose aka. additional creatures slot for a short while (Werebear, Fledgling Drake, Sea Drake, Serendib Efreet...) and I didn't like a single one of them: you just don't need that many creatures if you have a strong enough control plan or reach to supplement your beatdown plan (just like Tempo Thrash doesn't need more than 8 creatures because of reach and disruption).

Here's my current list (based strongly on Nihil's):



/// Maindeck (60 cards)

// Lands (21)
3 Wooded Foothills (http://magiccards.info/on/en/330.html)
3 Flooded Strand (http://magiccards.info/on/en/316.html)
3 Polluted Delta (http://magiccards.info/on/en/321.html)
4 Volcanic Island (http://magiccards.info/be/en/302.html)
3 Tropical Island (http://magiccards.info/be/en/299.html)
4 Island (http://magiccards.info/apac/en/12.html)
1 Forest (http://magiccards.info/apac/en/11.html)

// Creatures (8)
4 Tarmogoyf (http://magiccards.info/fut/en/153.html)
4 Swans of Bryn Argoll (http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=68567&d=1207024026)

// Card Advantage (10)
3 Ponder (http://magiccards.info/lw/en/79.html)
4 Brainstorm (http://magiccards.info/mm/en/61.html)
3 Sensei's Divining Top (http://magiccards.info/chk/en/268.html)

// Permission (9)
4 Counterbalance (http://magiccards.info/cs/en/31.html)
1 Counterspell (http://magiccards.info/be/en/55.html)
4 Force of Will (http://magiccards.info/ai/en/42.html)

// Removal (12)
4 Lightning Bolt (http://magiccards.info/be/en/163.html)
4 Chain of Plasma (http://magiccards.info/on/en/193.html)
1 Lightning Storm (http://magiccards.info/cs/en/89.html)
2 Repeal (http://magiccards.info/gp/en/32.html)
1 Engineered Explosives (http://magiccards.info/5dn/en/118.html)

/// Sideboard (15 cards)
4 Blood Moon (http://magiccards.info/dk/en/57.html)
4 Tormod's Crypt (http://magiccards.info/dk/en/109.html)
4 Pyroclasm (http://magiccards.info/ia/en/214.html)
2 Krosan Grip (http://magiccards.info/ts/en/202.html)
1 Trygon Predator (http://magiccards.info/di/en/133.html)


I basically took out Nimble Mongoose (under performing) and Daze. Daze wasn't all that great either during my tests as you always want to ramp up to quite a lot of mana to abuse the Swans (making CA out of them without having to pass a turn if you expect an opposing removal) and your CounterTop engine. Missing a land drop started to hurt and the effect was diminishing because I was always aiming for the lategame.
The current list is a little random (the one Counterspell especially) but plays extremely well and literally pulls wins out of no-where - which is totally awesome - but doesn't need the combo to win as you can just as well go beatdown backed up by Counterbalance (that's what NQG normally does, right?). The missing creatures are replaced by additional reach in burn so that , overall, you don't loose a lot of your aggressiveness.
The Repeals are awesome taking care of anything that hurts prior to combo-ing off or as nice tempo cards.
The singleton Explosives is for anything the burn can't take care of - but mainly as a bullet that is awesome when you draw it but that you don't need in order to function well (you can always cantrip into it). It is also useful to take care of multiple permanents that would prevent you from killing your opponent via Lightning Storm.

I like the deck, but honestly, i think another combo deck that splashes green for tarmogoyf is dumb. My win condition for swans and chain is spirling embers. EOT chain the swans enough times so i don't draw myself out. During the main phase drop spirling embers for 40+. Its a sorcery, but assuming ur playing RU, you will have just about every single card in your deck in your hand,(save, maybe 2 cards) which means you will have almost every single counterspell in your hand to respond to disruption. Bottom line, NO TARMOGOYF!!!!!
willoe, sorry, didn't realize you beat me to the punch. Great minds think alike.

[Illissius]

Does adding the combo to Threshold give you a better matchup against Goblins? At least, that is where I would expect that being able to morph into a combo deck would give you an advantage.

[freakish777]

So has the whole 2x Dakmor Salvage and Seismic assault with Swans thing been deemed a bad way to go because it's needle-able?


It's been ruled out because there's better ways to abuse Swan, seeing as how this isn't Standard and we don't want to run crap like Dakmor Salvage. Ever.

[Dark_Cynic87]

Why hasn't anyone tried to take it a storm-combo route?

It's white-ish, so chant is a definite option. You have Seething Songs, Rite of Flames, and Desperate Rituals, Petals too, not to mention SSG's and Burning Wishes (not sure what for, but w/ever). Manamorphose gets you double white/Blue on-color with red, and your burn spells, as obvious are huge drawing advantages. It could also be played as a burn list in a pinch. Your main problem would be consistancy I imagine. Blue has draw, which you are already implementing, what about Intuition? Too mana-intensive, or does it make Extirpate to easy to screw you? Your finish could be a grapeshot. Incidentally, an early grapeshot can really net your some cards, and give you a double+ storm count, making it really easy to deal lethal in pairs. Even an alternate kill of Brain Freeze is viable, especially if you are using it as a wall vs. Goyfs or whatever, putting a dent in their deck (not your most solid option, because as common knowledge goes draw=answers), even chaining a Grapeshot into your Swan to draw into Brain Freeze is a crazy idea. The most obvious problem is finding swan. I like the Pact of Negations. I'm thinking it's do-able.

How about:

Combo: 15
4x Lightning Bolt
1x Grapeshot
3x Chain of Plasma
2x Chain Lightning
1x Brain Freeze
4x Swan

Mana: 16
4x Seething Song
4x Manamorphose
4x Rite of Flame
4x SSG

Actual Draw: 7
4x Brainstorm
3x Ponder

Protection: 7
3x Pact of Negation
4x Orim's Chant

Land: 15
4x Volcanic Island
1x Steam Vents
2x Tundra
1x Plains
4x Flooded Strand
3x Polluted Delta

I see you are trying to take it a thresh-ish route, but it seems a combo card. Maybe I'm biased, I love combo builds. This lets you combo off into a Seething Song into a Manamorphose for the colored mana into Swan, with red left over to bolt into more stuff or to Rite of Flame to build up mana. Not included but an idea would be Fireblast (brainstormed already?). I didn't read a lot of this thread, and I am not sure that there's enough draw/shuffle effects to find Swan quickly. Any ideas? Less Mana, more draw? I didn't know what to do about Chain of Plasma...Would it fit/work here? I mean clearly it would work, but I'm not sure

And just to soothe my ego, I don't think that Dakmor Salvage is crap. It may be crap here, but it works well for me in Ichorid...Just sayin'...

[andreotti16]

From shdowmoor, came a card called Swans of Bryn Argoll. This card combined with chain of plasma creates a nearly infinite loop of drawing 3 to discard 1 (its limit depends on the deck size). You chain eot and then during your main phase, you play spirling embers for the big win. Here is the list:

Land (20)
4x Bloodstained Mire
4x Volcanic Island
7x island
5x mountain

Creature (4)
4x Swans of Bryn Argoll

Other Spells (36)
4x Ponder
3x Negate
3x Misdirection
4x Force of Will
4x Lightning Bolt
4x Chain of Plasma
2x Spirling embers
3x Counterspell
4x Impulse
4x Mystical Tutor
1x Stifle

Sideboard (15)
4x Pithing needle
4x Shattering Spree
3x Stifle
4x Tomad's crypt

send me any ideas, but please don't tell me to splash green for tarmogoyf. I am sick of hearing that and G messes up my mana base, i have tried.

[Nightmare]

Threads Merged

[undone]

why doesnt this play stuffy doll.... as i see it

Chain +5 other cards with doll in play is game (assuming they are playing a good deck since all varients take 1 from fetching and 1 from forcing, or 2 from tombs exct..) and thats just 1 more mana to auto win, worst case you could play 4 C mox 1 mox diamond and when you draw your deck you could play him and auto win. He also is only ONLY removed by STP. He also knows how to block tarmogoyf... rather well.....

In any case I think that if you wanted to play this deck why not have 8 creatures that auto win with chain of plasma....

[andreotti16]

why doesnt this play stuffy doll.... as i see it

Chain +5 other cards with doll in play is game (assuming they are playing a good deck since all varients take 1 from fetching and 1 from forcing, or 2 from tombs exct..) and thats just 1 more mana to auto win, worst case you could play 4 C mox 1 mox diamond and when you draw your deck you could play him and auto win. He also is only ONLY removed by STP. He also knows how to block tarmogoyf... rather well.....

In any case I think that if you wanted to play this deck why not have 8 creatures that auto win with chain of plasma....

Good point, here is my new updated list after play testing with a couple friends:

Land (20)
4x Bloodstained Mire
4x Volcanic Island
7x island
5x mountain

Creature (8)
4x Swans of Bryn Argoll
4x Stuffy Doll

Other Spells (32)
4x Ponder
3x Negate
3x Misdirection
4x Force of Will
4x Lightning Bolt
4x Chain of Plasma
2x Spirling embers
3x Counterspell
4x Impulse
1x Stifle

Sideboard (15)
4x Pithing needle
4x Shattering Spree
3x Stifle
4x Tomad's crypt

[Willoe]

Please don't play with Stuffy Doll for your own pleasure. If you think you can combo out with this fella by pitching the entire hand to it with chain, you have misunderstood something. Doll's waaaay too slow and swans without chains is a win condition by themselves.

Stuffy Doll does literally nothing without the chains, and even with chains, you're not sure to win. This sucks. At 5 mana? No thanks. Replace all of them with fireblast or chain lightning. Heck, even Rift Bolt would be better than that crazy voodoo thingie. A lot better.

Don't play that doll, there are thousands of better win conditions.

[andreotti16]

Please don't play with Stuffy Doll for your own pleasure. If you think you can combo out with this fella by pitching the entire hand to it with chain, you have misunderstood something. Doll's waaaay too slow and swans without chains is a win condition by themselves.

Stuffy Doll does literally nothing without the chains, and even with chains, you're not sure to win. This sucks. At 5 mana? No thanks. Replace all of them with fireblast or chain lightning. Heck, even Rift Bolt would be better than that crazy voodoo thingie. A lot better.

Don't play that doll, there are thousands of better win conditions.

I respectfully disagree, Stuffy doll does a lot more without the chains. He can block tarmogoyf all day long, he can ping for 1 at the end of the turn, and he an extra win condition. One of the big problems i had play testing was not drawing Swans. Blue (or red for that matter) is not good at tutoring creatures. To do that, id have to splash G or B. So by using stuffy doll, its almost like adding 4 extra win conditions.

[Dark_Cynic87]

So this is a pretty slow combo deck? I see no acceleration, and would REALLY like an explanation for this.

[Willoe]

With disruption, acceleration isn't really needed (aluren, anyone?).

How can you rely on playing a 5cc-creature with only 20 lands in your deck? In average, you have to wait to turn 8 (7 in opener, 8 draws=15 1/4 of your deck) to play that goddamn doll. Even though it's resistent to burn, smother and ghastly demise, it's not resistant to Smallpox, Pox, Diabolic Edict, STP, Innocent Blood and bla bla bla... Indestructibility (hard word for a foreigner BTW) isn't that good in a format dominated by creatures and efficent creature removal.

I don't think you can defend playing a such a high cc dude in your deck. It would have been fine if it costed 3. But it doesn't.

Replace it with something else, please.

[andreotti16]

With disruption, acceleration isn't really needed (aluren, anyone?).

How can you rely on playing a 5cc-creature with only 20 lands in your deck? In average, you have to wait to turn 8 (7 in opener, 8 draws=15 1/4 of your deck) to play that goddamn doll. Even though it's resistent to burn, smother and ghastly demise, it's not resistant to Smallpox, Pox, Diabolic Edict, STP, Innocent Blood and bla bla bla... Indestructibility (hard word for a foreigner BTW) isn't that good in a format dominated by creatures and efficent creature removal.

I don't think you can defend playing a such a high cc dude in your deck. It would have been fine if it costed 3. But it doesn't.

Replace it with something else, please.
I would run it because im getting more win conditions. You are right, i would rather hit swans over him, but worst case scenario, swans hit the grave and get extripated, unless i can draw all 8 of my 10 burn spells, im in trouble.
Stuffy doll is kinda run in addition for support, kinda like in mono green standard, you run mutavault in addition to treetop, not instead of.

[Willoe]

Brainstorm for another win condition. I've explained why Doll sucks. G splash would result in Tarmogoyf splash. Then you could just stick to Bryn Argoll Thresh.

[andreotti16]

Brainstorm for another win condition. I've explained why Doll sucks. G splash would result in Tarmogoyf splash. Then you could just stick to Bryn Argoll Thresh.

All right, seriously, FUCK TARMOGOYF. Splashing greens for Goyf doesn't help. It hurts the mana base more. Besides, on the fun factor, goyf is no longer fun or original and as soon as Goyf leads decks like 43 land, and goblins to a 1st place, thats going to be the red light to wizards to ban him. Right now those are the only two decks in legacy that people think Goyf would do bad in. Is stuffy doll bad? yeah, but in any other deck other than plasma swans, Swans of B. would probably be a bad card in legacy too.

[Willoe]

All right, seriously, FUCK TARMOGOYF. Splashing greens for Goyf doesn't help. It hurts the mana base more.

Test it and prove it.


Besides, on the fun factor, goyf is no longer fun or original and as soon as Goyf leads decks like 43 land, and goblins to a 1st place, thats going to be the red light to wizards to ban him.

And you're sure of this? Again, prove it.


Right now those are the only two decks in legacy that people think Goyf would do bad in.

There is way more decks viable in legacy that you can imagine. I bet that there are more than two decks. Solidarity, Angel Stax, Dragon Stompy, Faerie Stompy, T.E.S., 43land, gobs and Pox at least. That's more than two. Goyf will never be in a stompy deck as far as I can see. Green Stompy sucks (yes it does) and other colored stompy decks can't rely on the shaky manabase.


Is stuffy doll bad? yeah, but in any other deck other than plasma swans, Swans of B. would probably be a bad card in legacy too.

This isn't about how many decks your card selections are viable in. This is about this deck (obv.). Swans are good on their own as they really kill the opponent (remember it's a flying 4/3 clock that can't be killed, either) but the doll is a defensive strategy that is a twenty-turn clock. Like I said, you play it avg. at turn 15, and thereafter, you need twenty turns to kill with. Can you rely on that solely? 35 turns? If the opponent is smart, he's playing defensive to wait till he finds that answer to it. This could be everything from Trickbind on the doll trigger as you deal damage with chains, STP, Diabolic Edict and so on.

Moving on, find another creature.

[undone]

I think that if this deck is running any acceleration it should be C mox and mox diamond maby as 3-1 or 4-1 splits so you can hit the opponent with all the burn right away or you can accel into swans normaly.

Why hasnt this deck T8ed it seems powerful.

[andreotti16]

Ok, in order of your points:
Did in the begining, read my first post ever in this thread.



Positive. And i wasn't trying to prove anything. Im saying that If Goblins and 43 land start splashing for tarmogoyf, wizards should probably consider banning tarmogoyf.

Last time i checked, pox wasn't even close to T8. Dragon and angel stax have a couple variations that do run tarmogoyf.



By the way, swans can be killed by EVERYTHING EXCEPT: burn and combat damage (apart from wither). Ghastly demise and vendetta are more than happy to kill swans, while stuffy doll is only dies to STP and edict. But because of tarmogoyf, most people don't play edict, they run smother or vendetta. And the other color im playing is Blue, enough said. Trickbind is only ran mainly in Stifelnought as an extra stifle.

Name another creature that can replicate suffy doll's abuse of chain.

[Willoe]

Ok, in order of your points:
Did in the begining, read my first post ever in this thread.

Where? Don't like digging certain posts for more than a couple of minutes.


Positive. And i wasn't trying to prove anything. Im saying that If Goblins and 43 land start splashing for tarmogoyf, wizards should probably consider banning tarmogoyf.

You really need to to say such things. Enough of that goyf-whining :/ Play with him if you can, answer him if you don't. Remember, it's nonblack, has no evasion nor fancy abilities. It's just an undercosted dude. A VERY undercosted one.


Last time i checked, pox wasn't even close to T8.

Doesn't that prove it? Decks with goyf are often better than decks without?


Dragon and angel stax have a couple variations that do run tarmogoyf.

If you could find these decklist, I'd be happy to test them out (probably only to find out that they are worse than the original ones)


By the way, swans can be killed by EVERYTHING EXCEPT: burn and combat damage (apart from wither). Ghastly demise and vendetta are more than happy to kill swans, while stuffy doll is only dies to STP and edict.

True, but being resistant to combat damage as well as having evasion, being a combo piece and being a five turn clock is still doable. I'd like these pros and cons any day over indestructibility.



But because of tarmogoyf, most people don't play edict, they run smother or vendetta. And the other color im playing is Blue, enough said.

True. Does that justify the mainboard inclusion of that crappy doll?


Can you reliably disrupt enough? Just because you paly blue doesn't mean your opponents never win the game. In your decklist, you play 7 hard counters, 3 no-creature please hard counters and 3 misdirections. Is this really enough? Don't you need to shave 1 counterspell, all misdirections and all negates in order to make room fr countertop?

[QUOTE]Trickbind is only ran mainly in Stifelnought as an extra stifle.

And a lot people plays with dreadnoughts. Just because it isn't tier 1, you should be prepared for it anyway. Trickbind can do other things than to negate the nought-drawback. Fetchlands, your doll, rakdos pit dragon activations and so on all suffer from trickbind. It's good.


Name another creature that can replicate suffy doll's abuse of chain.

I can't. But why not play a creature that could also do something on its own without those stupid chains: Wee Dragonauts

These fae are actually very, very good, and also with flying, it's very ease for you to smack the opponent's head. Remember that you only have to play the spell, not letting it resolve.

EDIT: As well as correcting those quotes, I'd also like to mind you that a copied chain of plasma doesn't trigger wee. Just so you know.

[andreotti16]

ummm, hate to sound stupid but what is wee? Also, I am not saying stuffy doll is good, im saying he can almost replicate the swan's win condition if somehow, swans doesn't do me any good...

[Willoe]

Doesn't it? That surprises me.

http://magiccards.info/arena/en/85.html

Watch and replace.

[andreotti16]

thats ok, but you said yourself copying doesn't cause the trigger, so why would i replace him?

[Willoe]

You play a hell lot of instant and sorcery spells. You got to take advantage of this. Consider him as a Quirion Dryad v 2.0. A good dryad! He might not get the permanent bonus, but he's far more explosive that can be winning games if left unchecked. At my local store, meanee (he does have an account here on the Source, too!) used to play this deck with wee. Trust me, it's retarted. The amount of cantrips and burn followed up by evasion is just too good not to play with. At least, add 2 of them. Oh, and the last 2 dolls, what to do with them? Your kill condition needs to be tuned. Remove both Spiraling Embers, and add 3 Simian Spirit Guides and 1 Lightning Storm. With Misdirection, you should be pretty certain to win once you've chained the swans.

[Cait_Sith]

ummm, hate to sound stupid but what is wee? Also, I am not saying stuffy doll is good, im saying he can almost replicate the swan's win condition if somehow, swans doesn't do me any good...

Stuffy Doll is amazing in most formats as long as the meta isn't developed. As Legacy's development rarely takes major leaps or has sudden changes, unlike Standards, the advantage of even using Stuffy Doll is greatly diminished.

He may be able to, possibly, win the game with Chains if you have enough cards already in hand, but how good is that? You aren't dodging any hate except for Extirpate and that can be sent after Chain of Plasma anyway (Black tends to run discard).

[Willoe]

Cait, that is a very risky plan of paying 7 mana for a combo that only kills the opponent if you have 6 cards in your hand. That is simply too narrow.

Either, you play a lot of acceleration, lose your hand and fizzle the combo by only doing say 9 damage.

Or you combo out slowly losing so much tempo that you will be dead already.

You need to go off unprotected as you can't waste precious cards in your hand to counter things. You need all cards you can get to combo off.

This plan doesn't work, I'm afraid.

Cait_Sith, I believe that you're somewhat right in your statement, but I am pretty certain that 5 mana is way too much to pay for a maybe-win condition.

[yougo]

hi guys actualy i post that deck list before and now i test it a bit and this is what i end up with

creatures 4

4 Swans of Bryn Argoll

disrupt 19

4 lightning bolt
4 force of will
3 counter balance
4 sword to plowshare
3 stifle

spell 14

3 brainstrom
3 ponder
3 chain of plasma
1 Lightning Storm
2 intuition


artifact 2

3 sensei's divining top
1 stuffy doll


land/mana 22

3 simian spirit guide
3 ancient tomb
4 flooded strand
2 poluted delta
4 volcanic island
4 toundra
1 island
1 montain

sideboard

4 pyroblast
4 pyroclasm
1 conflagrate
2 moat
2 rolling earthquake
2 runed halo


that build is actually a more control type ill explain the card that i didnt see a lot in the past post

yeah i put counterbalance and sensei's well i tried it and i liked it a lot so ill think about keeping it for a while but those are the first one to disapeare if i get suggestd some better cards

3 stifle well those are my personel favorite that card againts many of combo deck can simply be a win condition and on a fetch againts merely all deck in a early game can easely give you the win so i keep that one as one of my favorite

i like the intuition with the ancient tomb those can come out quickly and can fetch whatever card you need

stuffy doll is my plan b and as prove to be kind a good its not a swan but its still something it can very be devastating

and now for the final i know some of you will probably want to crucify me for the ancient tomb especialy if there some counterbalance in here but i stay with my oppinion that card give you speed to go faster ... speed... well anyway i like this one and for now ill keep it

well if any of got suggestion let me know see ya...

[Dark_Cynic87]

why in god's name has no one built this like a combo list? Chants are on-color and so is shusher. Shusher, chant, go off. Chants are extremely versatile (no worries about disruption during your winning turn, Time Walks against Aggro and Stax/Stompy builds, screws over in response to them chanting, etc.), and shusher is a sideboard card easy. You win in one turn, which means PoN is a viable option for protecting a chant, and *can* be on-color.

To the guy who posted a list right above me, chant is a good option against storm. Stifle isn't. Both fetchland tendrils AND TES run 4x maindecked Chants. You will not get the opportunity, especially when you don't combo off fast. They will bait you out with a Chant. If you force it and have an Island open, chances are they will either Chant again forcing you to toss your stifle for a second Force, or it will resolve and you won't get to use it. Or, they'll just pass the turn and do it again next turn so they have more time to sculpt.

As for CounterTop in here, I'm against it. I'd much rather have Chants, and I'd also rather have Spell Snares. Look at your list. 1-drops run rampant; Chalice at 1 kills you. Even daze would be a better option than CounterTop. This isn't combo-control, and you will spend your mana countering their threats, not playing/looking for your combo.

I put up a combo list a few pages back that plays out faster, is there any reason that it's not a viable starting point? This needs to play fast.

Pce,

--DC

[yougo]

well... seems you in fact love that card a lot ... well orim's chant
yeah the thing that i dont like about that card is that she put your problem on stand by for one turn stifle just destroy them

ill put 16 gobblin in play no you dont you only put 2....

againts every kind of storm its just plain good and you tell me the shusher is the card to back it off well actually your right on this one shusher is very good but he can back a stifle as well as a chants its just better againts every kind of deck , have you ever stifle a fetch in a first game ? its not just good againts combo its good agaits every kind of deck

ok second argument chalice for 1 beat me well yeah its good card but in the same line you write that your prefer spell snare and your bugging me FOR THE CHANT... those are two sweet jellybean card i guess but they also get beat by your famous chalice so at least you could read yourself before posting

and now for the balance and the top you don't seems to like those cards don't you fellow ? well id play ThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshThresh for a long time now and what i can say about the top and balance is that its just amazing especialy againts... mmmh
well againts every kind of deck fast aggro as control and not to forget combo
it handle goblin,burn,aluren,hanni phish,survival,ill gotten gain,tes,etc...once you put the 2 simple card togheter your a long step in front and if they counter it well minus 1 counter in there hand

and an other thing what with all the acceleration? if you wanna play a deck with full of acceleration and some chant to make sure you win the turn you put your swan into play play well let me remind you that the combo cost 6 to play
and you have to get the 2 card well you talk about chant and acceleration why don't you play iggy pop or tes or belcher those seems to be in your blood

ho and a another thing you tell me that tes run some chant and screw my stifle well ok but i still run top balance and i personnely never seen a chant resolving at the point of the game where they need to cast the chant to protect themself ho yeah another point about stifle ... its blue you can remove it with force but not the chant

ho and what about the chant bait force fallowed by another chant and another force removing your stifle what is this ? why do you bother to explain that kind of situation are you telling me that you build the deck and this was a common situation cmon let's be serious here a bit does stifle is a bad card yes or no well i think that stifle is simply an amazing card so as orim's chant but dosent belong in that type of deck

[Pelikanudo]

well my friends I'll make a suggestion because my brain is big I MUST to share my knowledge.
How about firestorm in order to win, one single and lonely ?

[Nihil Credo]

well my friends I'll make a suggestion because my brain is big I MUST to share my knowledge.
How about firestorm in order to win, one single and lonely ?
Doesn't work. Firestorm NEEDS X targets to play it, no less. So you can't deal 20 to your opponent unless there are also 19 creatures in play (18 if you are content with a draw).

[Pelikanudo]

what about making the deck around the Burning tog archetype. This archetype bring us the So-Good nigthscape familiar whic makes the swan and the chain cheaper...
What about the idea?

[Shriekmaw]

I think that if this deck is running any acceleration it should be C mox and mox diamond maby as 3-1 or 4-1 splits so you can hit the opponent with all the burn right away or you can accel into swans normaly.

Why hasnt this deck T8ed it seems powerful.


The main reason why this deck has not made a major top 8 is for 2 reasons.

The deck is pretty new to a lot of players which only recentely has gotten some attention, mainly due to the Star City article.

I think this deck is just too inconsistent when compared to the Threshold decks that exist in the format. I don't see the advantages of this deck compared to Threshold.

Some of the versions that I saw, were playing 4 colors where the key was resolving Swan. If Swan doesn't resolve in the control matchups, the deck doesn't win.

I took this deck apart with Canadian Threshold mainly due to the aweful mana base that this deck plays. Maybe this is just a bad matchup, but why would someone pick this up over the Threshold options that we have available in the format?