Legacy Resources - Articles and Stuff

[TeenieBopper]

In the past couple of months, I've noticed that there has been a serious lack of knowledge and understanding of basic magic theory. I'm going to post some links to various articles dealing with multiple aspects of Magic theory, from metagaming, tempo, card advantage, and (rogue) deckbuilding.

Some of these articles will just be giving names and titles to concepts you already may understand simply because they are inherent parts of the game. In doing so, it will allow you to see when such concepts are occuring in game and how to apply them while playing. When reading some of these articles, you'll experience many a moment of "Oh, well, that make sense," and "Well, duh." Regardless, knowing and understanding these concepts will make you a better player.

Without further ado, the articles.

Basic Stratagy

The Way of the Sideboard (http://www.wizards.com/sideboard/article.asp?x=sb20001220b)
by Rob Dougherty

The Basics Of Playing The Game: Paranoia Is Good (http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/expandnews.php?Article=3453)
By Peter Jahn


Intermediate Concepts

Who's the Beatdown (http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/expandnews.php?Article=3692)
by Mike Flores

Clear the Land and the Fundamental Turn (http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/expandnews.php?Article=3688)
by Zvi Mowshowitz

The Art of the Mulligan (http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/expandnews.php?Article=5509)
by Ken Krouner

The Art Of The Mulligan: Eight Case Studies
(http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/expandnews.php?Article=5622)
by Ken Krouner


Advanced Concepts

Philosophy of Fire (http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/expandnews.php?Article=7157)
by Mike Flores

Advanced Stratagy: Investment (http://www.classicdojo.org/b981/bou.980320mfl1.txt)
by Mike Flores


Tempo

Tempo and Card Advantage (http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/expandnews.php?Article=3690)
by Eric "Danger" Taylor

Tempo is Really Interesting (http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/expandnews.php?Article=7249)
by Mike Flores

Metagaming

Sullivan Library: How to do your own Metagame Analysis (http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/expandnews.php?Article=3691)
by Adrian Sullivan

Finding the Tinker Deck (http://www.wizards.com/sideboard/article.asp?x=sb20010607a)
by Mike Flores


Rogue Deckbuilding

Basic Rogue Deck Design: Natural Strategy, Anti-Strategy, and Strategy Superiority (http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/article/6984.html)


General "How to get better by not being totally irrational"

The Danger of Cool Things (http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/expandnews.php?Article=3689)
by Chad Ellis

Is this your Card? (http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/expandnews.php?Article=3350)
by The Ferret

The Next Level (http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/expandnews.php?Article=7507)
by Mike Flores

Play to Win (http://www.sirlin.net/Features/feature_PlayToWinPart1.htm)
(not about magic, but generally improving)


Some of these articles are long. Read them anyways. They're all very good, and they'll all improve your game.



Edited By TeenieBopper on 1087878676

[Bongo]

Excellent post Teeniebopper.

I would also include the following articles:


The Schools of Magic
by Rob Hahn (http://web.archive.org/web/19990221091604/thedojo.com/school/schooldex.html)


Mmmmmmmmmana...Five Rules For Avoiding Mana-Screw
by Jay Moldenhauer-Salazar (http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/expandnews.php?Article=890)


Examining The Theories Of Card Advantage And Quality
by Will Rieffer
(http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/expandnews.php?Article=1126)

[Peter_Rotten]

TB, you beat me to the update on posting Flores' latest article. A good read.

Very basic summary:
To get better:
1. Draft and Play a lot
2. Play with people better than you
3. Play tight (don't make mistakes or fall for "Cool things")
4. Understand the environment (going to be key for the Big Arse Tournament)

[Peter_Rotten]

Here's another good one. Chad once again explains to us the danger of cool things and a provides a few tips on improving your game.

Are You Kidding Yourself? (http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/expandnews.php?Article=7515)
by Chad Ellis (Author of the classic and probably my personal favorite, The Danger of Cool Things)

Definitive quote:
Falling in love with a card is like falling in love with a person: It can blind you to faults and makes it hard to see when something better comes along.


Brief Summary:

Kidding yourself is hard to avoid. The best way to resist this disease is to make a commitment to ruthless honesty with yourself and then look out for the following symptoms:

1. The card or deck you have an emotional attachment to seems better to you than it does to everyone else. A lot better.

2. You've tested your deck a large enough number of times to be statistically reliable but you're convinced that its "real" win/loss percentage is much better than your playtest results show. Your wins in testing are due to your deck having good matchups or to you playing it well, while your losses are due to factors other than the deck or your skill.

3. Your deck seems immune to hate -- with "seems" coming from a source other than play testing a significant number of games against good opponents.

PS. I love the double post.

[Peter_Rotten]

Here's one by Oscar teaching us how to avoid 7 types of bad cards. He provides clear examples that easily apply to our format, and he explains one way to evaluate new cards.

Six Delusions You Meet in Heaven (http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/expandnews.php?Article=7520) by Oscar Tan

Sorry for the influx on new material, but for some reason there has been some worthwhile material on SCG the past week.

[Peter_Rotten]

Got another good one. This one is another attempt to truly define tempo and clearly explores several Type 1 examples of the term. It is relevant to 1.5, even though those examples include Moxes and other Type 1 nonsense. Steve makes an interesting point that Aggro-Control has killed Pure Control (like Landstill does to UW Scepter) and that Tempo has replaced Card Advantage in Type 1. Do you think that this has happened to 1.5 also?

Here's the defining quote from the article:


Tempo is important because there is a direct relationship between winning and maintaining your tempo advantage (or successfully negating it). However, Tempo is interesting because it manifests itself in so many different ways. It isn't limited to decks with creatures that attack or virtual card advantage. If you are utilizing Tempo effectively, you are keeping your opponent off balance and dictating the terms of the game.

Tempo IS Interesting (http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/expandnews.php?Article=7601)
by
Steve Menendian

For an interesting tangent, look at this point he makes.


The guiding principle behind aggro-control is board advantage at the expense of card advantage.

You're welcome, Diablos. Nick, I couldn't resist!

One other note... I think that you should likely ignore what he says about Aggro. Or I should say that the points Steve makes about aggro in Type 1 do not and cannot apply to 1.5. Aggro in many (odd) shapes and forms is alive and kicking in 1.5.

[DavidHernandez]

Threads Merged. Some of these may be duplicate.
~ Nightmare
A while back, Ric_Flair at www.themanadrain.com posted links to some articles that are "required reading" for players of MTG. I'm posting those articles here for 2 reasons:

1 ) They apply to Legacy, and
2 ) This will serve as a backup in the event TMD ever removes the thread.

Here is what Ric_Flair said:

So for a while there has been discussion of having a thread with the classic articles in Magic on it. A while ago, I tried to gather the best of the best together. I have the following articles on my list of classics. This is by no means an exhaustive list, but I think that no list would be complete without these articles.

Here are the links:

The Way of the Sideboard
by Rob Dougherty

http://www.wizards.com/sideboard/article.asp?x=sb20001220b

The Danger of Cool Things
by Chad Ellis

http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/expandnews.php?Article=3689

Who's the Beatdown?
by Mike Flores

http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/expandnews.php?Article=3692

Finding the Tinker Deck
by Mike Flores

http://www.wizards.com/sideboard/article.asp?x=sb20010607a

Clear the Land and the Fundamental Turn
by Zvi Mowshowitz

http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/expandnews.php?Article=3688

The Rule
by Zvi Mowshowitz

http://www.wizards.com/sideboard/article.asp?x=sb20001016a

Tempo and Card Advantage
by Eric Taylor

http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/expandnews.php?Article=3690

Others added the following:

Advanced Strategy: Investment
Mike Flores

http://www.classicdojo.org/b981/bou.980320mfl1.txt

The Metagame Clock
Leon Workman

http://web.archive.org/web....o.shtml (http://web.archive.org/web/20000528022701/thedojo.com/b001/bo.000321lwo.shtml)

Basic Rogue Deck Design: Natural Strategy, Anti-Strategy, and Strategy Superiority
By Mike Flores

http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/expandnews.php?Article=6984%22

Mind over Magic
By Robert Hahn

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=mtgcom/feature/207

The philosophy of fire
Mike Flores

http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/expandnews.php?Article=7157

Tempo is Really Interesting
by Mike Flores

http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/expandnews.php?Article=7249

The Orthodoxy of 60 Cards
Robert A.C. Nanka-Bruce

http://web.archive.org/web....a.shtml (http://web.archive.org/web/19990508133909/www.thedojo.com/column/col.990414rna.shtml)

Deck Clinic
Zvi Mowshowitz

http://web.archive.org/web....zmo.txt (http://web.archive.org/web/20000517175514/www.thedojo.com/school/decks/dcl.981231zmo.txt)

Realizing how bad you are
Mike Flores

http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/expandnews.php?Article=6596

The Mathematics of Magic: The Gathering
Jon Prywes

http://www.kibble.net/magic/magic01.php

Type 1 Players Have All the Fun
Bryce Reynolds
(possibly the best Tournament report ever written)

http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/expandsub.php?Article=3565

The Art Of The Mulligan
Ken Krouner

Part 1: http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/expandnews.php?Article=5509

Part 2: http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/expandnews.php?Article=5622

And today I found the following article by Mike Flores:

Degree of Difficulty
Mike Flores

http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/expandnews.php?Article=8452

All of these are worth reading. If you can afford to print them out they can make an impressive tool for increasing your skill.

Dave.



Edited By DavidHernandez on 1100880043

[Peter_Rotten]

Here is another Flores' for the masses:

Linkity LInk (http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/expandnews.php?Article=8703)

Defining quote:

It is empowering to realize that there is only one right play on every priority of every stack... more than just winning a game, gunning for the tightest possible plays is a goal that every Magic player can strive for.

[Peter_Rotten]

Here's another link to help you (and me :( ) not suck anymore.

Chad Ellis... Revisting The Scarce Resource (http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/expandnews.php?Article=8788)

Defining quote:

The fundamental concept of scarce resource theory is that when you rely on multiple distinct inputs to do something, your capacity is constrained only by the scarce resource. Thus, the scarce resource is the one you must protect or increase, while the plentiful resource is less important.

Since I like to use simple analogies, let's assume you're making lemonade, and need water, lemons and sugar to do it. You want to make as much as possible. You have virtually unlimited water, enough lemons to make two gallons and enough sugar to make six gallons. What do you go buy at the store first? Lemons, obviously. Adding more water or sugar to your supply won't increase the amount of lemonade you can make - the whole system is constrained by the scarce resource.


Chad then applies the theory to many worthy Extended examples that can easily ported over to Legacy. The article is worth your time.

[TeenieBopper]

The Way Out (http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/article/9249.html)

Basically it tells you to think outside the box when playing. You have no idea how many retarded things I saw FakeSpam do with Dragon to win on turn 3 or how many times I went beatdown with Landstill starting on turn 2.

[Happy Gilmore]

A Lesson in Symmety (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=mtgcom/daily/mf36)

Another recent article by Mike Flores, good read.

[Brushwagg]

Four Leaf Clover (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=mtgcom/daily/mf40)

By Mike Flores. He talks about increasing your "luck" when building decks. Pretty good read.

[Silverdragon]

I haven't found the link yet on this page so here is Fearlessness (http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/article/3298.html) by Jeremy Muir. Definately a good read and a great addition to all those basic strategy articles.

You see, sometimes people don't play cards for some reason or another. Examples of this would be if you had a Skizzik in hand and mana to cast it with kicker on the board - but you hold back on casting it, because they may have a Counterspell. Maybe they have a Wrath of God and are just waiting for one more creature to use it on?

So you hold your Skizzik (or whatever).

Your opponent is winning the game more than he was before now.

[brolio]

From The Top: Priority And Timing (http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/article/10062.html)

[frogboy]

Four Magical Myths (http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/article/10898.html)

Go read this right now. In particular, #4.



Edited By frogboy on 1133327315

[Bardo]

"Pondering Legacy," by LSV

http://strategy.channelfireball.com/featured-articles/initial-technology-pondering-legacy/

[Jon Stewart]

There's a whole lot of competitive legacy decks out there. I think we would all benefit (especially people new to legacy) if we could download a package with all of them, to simply copy and paste directly into Magic Workstation. Silverdragon initially put together 50+ competitive legacy decklists for people to download and have instant access to, and people have been steadily adding to it...

Here's the link to the most current and up to date compilation....

http://www.mediafire.com/

I want anyone that wants to add a deck or update a particular decklist, to be able to contribute to or make changes to the compilation, and update the rar package. So I'm posting the username and password to the mediafire account.

Username: legacydecks@gmail.com
Password: mtgthesource

Simply go to mediafire.com, and login with the above information, and you can modify, then reupload the "Legacy Decks.rar" file with the additions and changes you made to the decklists.

The idea is to have the community be in charge of policing and updating decklists itself. It would help if you add a date after the name of any deck you modify or add to the zip file.

[Silverdragon]

Sadly Starcitygames only does MTGO and Apprentice deckformats so it takes some effort to convert those lists into .mwdeck
Luckily I already did some work with http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/legacy/18707_So_Many_Insane_Plays_Your_EmCompleteem_Guide_to_Legacy_The_50_Decks_of_Legacy.html

If anyone wants to download in .mwdeck format, here's a .rar folder:

http://rapidshare.com/files/387799791/legacydecks.rar.html

[Jon Stewart]

Thank you so much. That's a fantastic compilation. :)


I think your compilation is already a great starting point for the community pulling something like this off.

The people who play the decks regularly and have top 8ed (or atleast regularly compete with their lists) at tournaments should feel encouraged to posts their decklists below to be added to or included in place of suboptimal lists already included in the compilation. I will be happy to add them myself. I would submit my Mono-Blue Control, Death and Taxes and Pox lists, but I think that would be unfair as I never top 8ed with my list. I would rather someone who has submit their Pox, Mono-Blue Control, Death and Taxes and Enchantress lists instead.

[Jon Stewart]

I'm surprised that Silverdragon's post got so little attention/responses.

It's a FANTASTIC resource.

Seriously a 15 second download later and you have 50 of legacy's best and most competitive decks (with only a few legacy staple decks that were unfortunately left out or were poorly built), at your fingertips.

You can test against them, share them with friends that are curious about legacy or are just starting out, try the decks out yourselves to decide what deck to build next, the possiblities are endless.

[Silverdragon]

Thanks for the kind words :)
They motivated me to update the compilation.

http://rapidshare.com/files/389270097/legacydecks.rar.html

As you suggested I added Monoblue and changed the Pox list to the one you posted. I also put the decks in different folders trying to match the categories here (DTB, Established, N&D).

Remember I'm doing this mainly for myself so don't expect any regular updates..
Anyway, if taking the 20 seconds to zip, upload and post it makes at least one person happy I think I can keep doing just that ;)

edit: haha I totally missed that DnT list.. Seems like another update will be coming soon x_x

[Nihil Credo]

/hits thread with sticky stick

[paK0]

Awesome Idea, two rather new Decks (compared to some of the ones in the list:

GW Survival:

// Lands
4 [B] Savannah
4 [ON] Windswept Heath
3 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
3 [UNH] Forest
1 [UNH] Plains
4 [TE] Wasteland
4 [FUT] Horizon Canopy

// Creatures
1 [P3] Loyal Retainers
1 [ZEN] Iona, Shield of Emeria
4 [ARB] Qasali Pridemage
3 [SHM] Kitchen Finks
4 [UL] Mother of Runes
1 [MM] Squee, Goblin Nabob
4 [CFX] Knight of the Reliquary
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
4 [CFX] Noble Hierarch
1 [FD] Eternal Witness

// Spells
4 [R] Swords to Plowshares
4 [EX] Survival of the Fittest
2 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [SHM] Kitchen Finks
SB: 1 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
SB: 3 [DK] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 3 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 3 [CFX] Path to Exile
SB: 1 [WWK] Bojuka Bog
SB: 1 [SHM] Faerie Macabre
SB: 1 [LRW] Gaddock Teeg
SB: 1 [ALA] Ethersworn Canonist








New Horizons:

// Lands
3 [A] Tundra
3 [B] Tropical Island
4 [FUT] Horizon Canopy
4 [ON] Windswept Heath
4 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
1 [UNH] Forest
4 [TE] Wasteland

// Creatures
4 [CFX] Knight of the Reliquary
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
3 [OD] Terravore

// Spells
4 [MM] Brainstorm
4 [M10] Ponder
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [NE] Daze
4 [SC] Stifle
2 [FD] Engineered Explosives
4 [R] Swords to Plowshares

// Sideboard
SB: 3 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 2 [ALA] Rhox War Monk
SB: 3 [DK] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 1 [EVE] Worm Harvest
SB: 1 [RAV] Life from the Loam
SB: 4 [ZEN] Spell Pierce
SB: 1 [WWK] Bojuka Bog

[Jon Stewart]

Thank you for stickying the thread Nihil Credo.

And thanks so much for your hard work Silverdragon. I feel like the list you already compiled is about 95% complete.

Silverdragon, I was wondering if you would like to be charge of this list, since you already put so much work into it.

It's totally up to you. If you would rather that I or a mod take over the list, that is perfectly okay as well.



All we need right now is for a couple of the current lists in it to be updated (Enchantress, Burn), and a few new decks added (Death and Taxes, GW Survival, Mono Black Pox, Sligh, New Horizons and a few others) and it would be complete.

Thank you again.

Everyone should feel free to propose additions and modifications to the lists.




I feel the collection could also use a strong BWG Rock List with Deeds, Vindicates, Thoughtseizes, Planeswalkers, Tombstalkers etc.

[Silverdragon]

As I already said, you shouldn't expect regular updates by me so I'd be glad if you would take over the responsibility. Because you are also able to edit the first post I think it would be best if you or a mod would do it in the future.

Another thought I had is that as soon as our list is "complete" (as in "only lacks some decks from N&D") and we "only" need to update it we could do that about every month and seperate the decks by how current the list is. For example if a list hasn't been updated that month it goes into a folder "probably not up to date" or some such and the ones that are getting updated because we have lists from recent tournaments or updated posts here go into a folder "up to date".

It's a shame that lots of good opening posts here lack a current list of the deck. I think the hardest part in updating this in the future will be to find out whether a list has changed or not :)

So I'll probably update it once more this weekend and then see how much time I have in the future.

[Jon Stewart]

Sounds great Silverdragon.

I'll be happy to take over. Thanks again for putting this all together.

If you still wanted to add or update some of the decklists this weekend, read on below...

I made a public mediafire account and uploaded all your decks to that...

Here is the link...

http://www.mediafire.com/legacydecks



In addition, I want anyone that wants to add a deck or update a particular deck, to have access to the mediafire account. So I'm posting the username and password to that account.

Username: legacydecks@gmail.com
Password: mtgthesource

Simply go to mediafire.com, and login with the above information, and you can modify the rar file to add or update decklists.

The only request I make is, download the most recent .rar package on that site and modify it within an hour of when you are going to reupload it. That way, the package you upload will always include all of the most current decklists and won't overwrite anyone else's updates. If you're worried about that, you can check the .rar package again a day or so after your update and make sure the changes you made are still around.

We could even include a small "log.txt" text file in the .rar package that everyone modifies to keep track of who made what updates when.

[Grollub]

Regarding Pox, is there BG and BGU lists, they are both considerable stronger than BW (which is mucho worse than straight up mono).

[Jon Stewart]

I picked the BW list because it won a tournament on deckcheck and it did very well when I tried on workstation. I won against Zoo which I always thought was a very tough matchup for Pox.

But I think the collection should have 3 Pox lists... BG Pox, BW Pox, and Mono Black Pox.

Feel free to add a BG Pox and Mono Black Pox list to the collection.

[Jon Stewart]

Various updates to the package were posted, I believe by Silverdragon.

Thanks man.

[vikram]

Downloading now. Thanks.

[Tiago_B.]

This thread is amazing. When i get home im definetly downloading those....


The title should be changed to something like ' Download Legacy Decklists Here! '


It would get much more atention :tongue:

[Jon Stewart]

Thanks for the suggestion. Glad you like the thread.

I updated the title as per your suggestion, I will contact a mod about changing the name of the thread officially. Thank you.

[Forbiddian]

Yeah, this is amazing work!

If you want this to last for longer, it might be prudent to start adding dates to the deck titles, so people know when things get updated, etc.

6 months or a year from now, some of these decks will be quite dated while others get updated regularly.

[Bardo]

Thanks for the suggestion. Glad you like the thread.

I updated the title as per your suggestion, I will contact a mod about changing the name of the thread officially. Thank you.

Done.

[(nameless one)]

Can we do a Cockatrice file for these as well?

[AlexAI]

I made a chart that shows the chances of seeing 0-4 copies of the cards in your starting 7 while running a certain amount of them, and figured it would take me 2 minutes to post it here so I may as well. Worst case someone tells me "DID IT ALREADY, NOOB" and this gets locked.

The bolded parts are where you have to highest chance of seeing a certain number of cards. In the Constructed chart for example, you'll see exactly 1 the most often running 8 of the type of card, 21 to see exactly 2 or 3, etc. Thought it would be useful for land/counter/removal/creature counts or something.

Constructed (60 Cards)
http://img683.imageshack.us/img683/2236/starting7.png


Constructed (61 Cards)
http://img109.imageshack.us/img109/4756/starting7constructed61.png


EDH/Commander (99 Cards)
http://img543.imageshack.us/img543/2324/starting7edhedition.png


Limited (40 Cards)
http://img215.imageshack.us/img215/9360/starting7limited.png


I double checked them a fair amount, if something still seems wrong, let me know.

Feel free to post any charts/graphs/etc here!

[Zamussels]

Pretty interesting, thanks for posting it. I don't play EDH but I would still be interested to see it to see how the numbers would differ.

[AlexAI]

Added the EDH one. I figured I wouldn't need to go to seeing 5 of a certain kind of card, even in EDH, since I can't think of any hand you'd want to keep with 5 of something similar like mana sources or guys. Even relentless rats.dec would like 3 land in the 7.

[Gui]

An obvious column missing is "1 or more" and the likes, it's by far the one I use most xD

[AlexAI]

An obvious column missing is "1 or more" and the likes, it's by far the one I use most xD

I didn't think of that, but I think you can get most of them pretty easily with the chart.

1 or more: 1 - the chance of getting 0

2 or more: 1 - the chance of getting 0 or 1

3 or more: 1 - the chance of getting 0 to 2, etc.

[Gui]

I didn't think of that, but I think you can get most of them pretty easily with the chart.

1 or more: 1 - the chance of getting 0

2 or more: 1 - the chance of getting 0 or 1

3 or more: 1 - the chance of getting 0 to 2, etc.

Yes, that's what I do, and after I did that to mine, I almost never used single ones anymore xD

[a-slice-of-cake]

Wow, this is pretty darn useful, man. Thanks for putting this up!

At first I was thinking, "since when do I have more than 4 copies of a card in my deck," but then I realized that I could just group cards like removal, creatures, and lands together. I'm so good at this.

[Tacosnape]

Can we get a Sticky on this?

[dahcmai]

Yes, very helpful. I've been wanting one of these for a bit, but I suck at math.

[cdr]

Could turn it into a Google spreadsheet, though sharing those can be finicky.

[TheDarkshineKnight]

If anyone's interested, I made a chart about a month or two ago that lists how many lands you should have drawn from your deck (assumed to be 60 cards for constructed and 40 cards for limited) on average by any given turn (assuming you're first player).

Someone put the spreadsheets up on Google Docs for me and added values for 100 card decks as well.

The link is: https://spreadsheets.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0Airj6A6lYAz_dG05T2JETnVTak1xQ0tqOHNSdEJLWVE&hl=en_US

EDIT: I updated the spreadsheet to make it more user friendly and, er, colorful. >_>

[Malchar]

Perhaps we could get one sticky that has nothing but all of the various data spreadsheets together.

[AlexAI]

Minor update. Added a Limited chart.

[Koby]

Cool, now I know to add 4 more Shatters in my SOM block drafts in order to maximize the chance of seeing 1 in my opener. Sweeeeeet!!</sarcasm>

Thanks for the extra info AlexAI!

[GGoober]

This guy has some pretty sick statistic tools that can be viewed online:

http://ark42.com/mtg/

I'm working on my own spreadsheets but haven't found a way to compile them neatly and available for sharing. Google spreadsheet is still very limited in sharing/viewing purposes.

[Koby]

This guy has some pretty sick statistic tools that can be viewed online:

http://ark42.com/mtg/

I'm working on my own spreadsheets but haven't found a way to compile them neatly and available for sharing. Google spreadsheet is still very limited in sharing/viewing purposes.

I laughed hard!
http://ark42.com/mtg/pricevisualizer.php?s=Worldwake

[GGoober]

lol I didn't even check that out!

This too: http://ark42.com/mtg/pricevisualizer.php?s=Antiquities

Anyway, is this thread just for Opening 7 Charts or can the community add some useful spreadsheets/statistics if we feel like it?

[bellaxiemtg]

Edh

[The_Red_Panda]

I laughed harder:

http://ark42.com/mtg/pricevisualizer.php?s=Homelands

Leeches.

[AlexAI]

lol I didn't even check that out!

This too: http://ark42.com/mtg/pricevisualizer.php?s=Antiquities

Anyway, is this thread just for Opening 7 Charts or can the community add some useful spreadsheets/statistics if we feel like it?

Feel free to add more charts/data, although the title should be changed then to avoid confusion. Maybe something like "Data/Spreadsheets Thread"?

[Hof]

I made a chart that shows the chances of seeing 0-4 copies of the cards in your starting 7 while running a certain amount of them
Very useful chart, good work.
I would be interested in seeing the Constructed charts with 61 cards.

[Goaswerfraiejen]

Fantastic idea and resource--especially keeping it open-sourced, so to speak. Thanks for all the hard work, everyone.

[AlexAI]

I would be interested in seeing the Constructed charts with 61 cards.

Done + updated.

Edit: What if I used percentages in the chart instead of the number (88.52% instead of 0.885246 etc)? It would be neater at the cost of a little less detail.

[manatalks]

I've been looking around the web for an update to Stephen Menendian's Legacy checklist and couldn't find one that was satisfactory so I wrote one:

Ultimate Legacy Checklist (http://manatalks.com/mtg-articles/ultimate-legacy-checklist)

Thought you guys could use it too.

-Pascal

[Mr. Safety]

Added to my browser's favorites list...THANK YOU!

[tsabo_tavoc]

Awesome list:cool:
I am curious how subjective the list is, and if you used data from tournaments. Anyway, very good job!

Here are some random comments (decks = Tier 1 - Tier 2 decks):
Which decks play Fiend Hunter, Spectral Lynx, Serum Visions or Boartusk Liege:tongue:
Which decks need >4 Armageddon, and why 4 Ravages of War;
There are decks featuring on Past in Flames (3 or 4 copies), and/or more Tendrils of Agony;
Some combo decks want 8 Chants (4 Silence);
Manaless Dredge has Phantasmagorian, Nether Shadow;
MUD can play up to 4 Wurmcoil Engine, and you missed Lightning Greaves and Spellskite;
Elves can play up to 4 Gaea's Cradle and Quirion Ranger;
Solidarity plays Opt, Peek, Impulse, Peer through Depths, Flash of Insight, and High Tide decks have Snap;
Affinity has Signal Pest and Etched Champion:cry:

[Kich867]

Biggest "wtf?" card for me was Ancestor's Chosen..

[tsabo_tavoc]

Biggest "wtf?" card for me was Ancestor's Chosen..

It used to be a Dread Return target (usually in Dredge SB), but were outclassed by Elesh Norn.

[death]

Biggest "wtf?" card for me was Ancestor's Chosen..

It was considered a good sb card in dredge, against burn, competed with Sadistic Hypnotist against Storm.

4 Phyrexian Dreadnought *check*
4 Vision Charm *what the... *

You might want to add Vision Charms in there. I mean you have Wonder and Anger there even though Sotf isn't because obviously it's banned.

Also, please add in Multi 2 of this:
http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?size=small&type=card&name=Geist%20of%20Saint%20Traft

[caiomarcos]

Very helpful! Favorited that too, thanks!

But I don't get the logic behind staples. For example, how come Bridge from Below is a staple and Dread Return is not? Are there dredge decks without Dredge Return?

[Gui]

Here are some random comments (decks = Tier 1 - Tier 2 decks):
Which decks play Fiend Hunter, Spectral Lynx, Serum Visions or Boartusk Liege:tongue:
Which decks need >4 Armageddon, and why 4 Ravages of War;
There are decks featuring on Past in Flames (3 or 4 copies), and/or more Tendrils of Agony;
Some combo decks want 8 Chants (4 Silence);
Manaless Dredge has Phantasmagorian, Nether Shadow;
MUD can play up to 4 Wurmcoil Engine, and you missed Lightning Greaves and Spellskite;
Elves can play up to 4 Gaea's Cradle and Quirion Ranger;
Solidarity plays Opt, Peek, Impulse, Peer through Depths, Flash of Insight, and High Tide decks have Snap;
Affinity has Signal Pest and Etched Champion:cry:

This is a great addendum to an already good list ^^

[manatalks]

I'll do an update later today with all the feedback I've gotten.

Boartusk Liege is one of the best cards for the Goblins mirror and against stuff like Engineered Plague. I always play 1 copy in my sideboard and I've seen it around regularly. Stephen actually had 2 in his list I believe.

Etched Champion is definitely going in. This I just missed straight up ha ha.

I will also upgrade Wurmcoil, Past in Flames, etc. I'm simply not that familiar with Meandeck MUD. I'll do my homework on it :)

As for Geist, I had 2 copies on my list initially but I figured I was high on something.... looks like I'm not alone so I'll put him back :)

Thanks for the feedback :)

[ScatmanX]

Which decks play Fiend Hunter, Spectral Lynx, Serum Visions or Boartusk Liege
Liege in completely playable in Monored goblins against E. Plague or Firespout.

[Octopusman]

Decent list.

I would fix the tag on Platinum Emperion and move Tangle Wire from lands to the colorless section.

[dahcmai]

I used to use Spectral Lynx a long time ago in Death and Taxes and occasionally some other odd choices against Thresh, but I haven't had a use for him in a long time. He was best for the Mongoose and Goyf.

[vilik]

How about a spreadsheet (.xls) format?

[manatalks]

Update should come this week-end. I've been incredibly busy lately. I will also add an Excel spreadsheet for those interested.

[lyracian]

Wow 150 cards out of 12,000. Just goes to show that 99% of Magic cards really are worthless. :tongue:

It is nice to see the list, although a lot of those cards do seem only be played in a single deck. Thanks for the work you put in. I shall have a check through it later.


You have "Glimmervoid" in the Artifact section by the way. Why a single "Day of Judgement"? I can not see why you would play that when "Wrath of God" is so much better.

[Roman]

Why a single "Day of Judgement"? I can not see why you would play that when "Wrath of God" is so much better.

Maybe Thrun or other regeneration stuff is the answer? Or if someone wants to play 2/2 or even 2/3 split against Therapy, Meddling Mage etc.

[Zilla]

Legacy Fundamentals (http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/legacy/23421_Eternal_Europe_Legacy_Fundamentals.html) by Carsten "Welcome Back" Kotter

[Octopusman]

List needs more Grafdigger's Cage ^_^

[dameus]

No love for Abyssal Persecutor? Awww.
Percy + Berserk FTW!