Gender and Gaming

[jrsthethird]

A friend recently shared this blog post on Facebook. I don't think it applies as much to MTG per se, as WOTC has been excellent at creating and marketing an inclusionary product. Nonetheless, there is still bullying (and worse) based on gender, race, or sexuality at conventions and among other gaming communities that may share a playing space at our LGS and if we choose to ignore it, we're only helping the problem.

http://latining.tumblr.com/post/141567276944/tabletop-gaming-has-a-white-male-terrorism-problem


Tabletop Gaming has a White Male Terrorism Problem

I am a gamer. I followed the call of Cthulhu and ran in the shadows with hackers and shamans. I traversed the ancient lands of Greyhawk, Faerun, and Eberron with companions new and old. I swung from an airship and buckled swash over London for the Kerberos Club. I threw dice and flipped cards and ground men into dust playing table-top wargames.

I don’t do that anymore.

Since July of 2015 fans of the game Malifaux have been attempting to overwhelm me with death and rape threats for no other reason than I am a woman who has opinions on the game. Wyrd Miniatures is silent on this matter and hangs up whenever anyone attempts to discuss the harassment. Given that a large number of threats identify the senders by name as Wyrd staff members, I do not find this surprising.

But that’s not what this article is about.

This isn’t the first time I’ve received an avalanche of threats from pathetic and insecure men. It isn’t the second time or even the third or fourth. At this point, I know that if I speak out against the abuses myself and my friends have suffered as a result of our participation in the “friendly gaming community” I can expect to be silenced with extreme prejudice. Section 83.01 of the Criminal Code of Canada defines terrorism as an act committed “in whole or in part for a political, religious or ideological purpose, objective or cause” and with the intention of intimidating the public “…with regard to its security, including its economic security, or compelling a person, a government or a domestic or an international organization to do or to refrain from doing any act.”

Astute readers will note there is no specific provision for internet harassment, although death threats are one of the most prominent and effective ways of driving women and POC from communities. While the topic of online harassment has centred around white women, it is not uncommon for any minority to receive death threats and other forms of intimidation when they express their concerns with the gaming community’s acceptance of racist, sexist, homophobic, and otherwise bigoted behaviour.

++++
I am thirteen years old and in a game store for the first time. I examine their selection of dice and take them to the counter to pay.

“How old are you?” asks the balding, middle-aged man behind the counter.

“Thirteen.”

“Old enough to bleed, old enough to breed!” he chuckles in glee. The Warhammer 40K gamers at the table behind him take up the refrain. “Old enough to bleed, old enough to breed! Old enough to bleed, old enough to breed!”

I run.
++++

Make no mistake that this is terrorism. The men who e-mail me rape threats have a vested interest in anyone perceived as “lesser” being expelled from the community. And the tragic thing is that it works.

Law enforcement is woefully unequipped for dealing with the multiple-jurisdiction headache of online harassment. Most police are unwilling to file a report without a name, address, and IP number and many regard “cyber-bullying” as unimportant. When combined with the sexist attitudes towards women and sexual assault, reporting rape threats is almost impossible.

++++
I am at Keycon, waiting for a friend to finish her Shadowrun game. One of my male friends hands me a pepsi. I take it and thank him.

I wake up in a hotel bed I don’t remember. A man’s hand is inside me, jabbing and painful. I try to scream but nothing comes out. I try to move but I cannot. After what feels like a lifetime, I stagger away, ripping his hand out of my jeans. The convention whirls around me like a nightmare kaleidoscope as I beg for help. Eventually, someone takes me aside.

“This is a safe convention. We have a reputation to protect. If you go to the police, we’ll say you were never here.”

I nod numbly. I think I am crying, but no tears fall. I stumble into a bathroom in the lobby coffee shop and sob until I can’t breathe. When I am calm, I call the police and report the attack.

“You sound drunk. Were you drinking? I’m not filing a report for some drunken slut.” The officer hangs up.

I have no more tears.
++++

Many men are under the fallacious assumption the police exist to serve and protect the population. They do not. They exist to keep the peace. Often this means intimidating women out of filing reports or pressing charges. I have no idea why this is the case. I only have twenty years of attempting to report gendered violence and having my concerns ignored. This is not a well-kept secret and the terrorists know this. They know that any woman attempting to report harassment or assault faces uphill battle and they count on it.

++++
It is 2009. A man at my game store has been sexually harassing me, talking about how much fun he would have raping me. When no one is in the store, he traps me against a wall and rubs his genitals against me. I call the police.

“This is a matter for your manager. If he touches you on the street, then you can call us.” The officer hangs up.

The owner refuses to expel the creep and fires me instead. Three years later I win a precedent-setting human rights case against him.
++++

What is shocking to me is that I am not particularly visible. I do not create, write about, or otherwise engage in gaming culture. Due to the years of persistent sexual harassment and threats, I maintain an incredibly low social profile and try to avoid gendering myself online. Just think for a moment how fucked up it is that I am not free to post about my hobbies, interests, or day to day life because I am a woman and the gaming community is so dangerous.

++++
It is 2015 and I am reporting the harassment to the RCMP.

“Is this like that WaterGame thing?” asks the officer. I smile in relief.

“Yes. Yes, it’s a lot like that.”

The officer sighs, “We’d have a lot less work if women just stayed away from dangerous, psychopathic losers.” I look at the evidence in front of me. I don’t disagree.

In every discussion of online harassment you will find men telling women to call the police. What you don’t hear is the police telling women to stay away from gaming communities for their own safety. What would gamers say if they knew that police told women to avoid game stores the same way they avoid frat houses?

“Why is this so important to you, anyway?” The officer is blunt, but I appreciate it.

“It’s my hobby. I love it. I’ve been doing this for twenty years.”

Her response cuts me to my core, “Find another hobby or you’re going to die.”
+++++

The response to the rampant sexual assault in the gaming hobby is predictably misogynistic. Women are expected to train themselves in self-defence and anything less is regarded as “irresponsible” on their part. This attitude is illogical, irrational, and deeply callous as it does not address the basic fact that, by the time a woman is forced to defend herself from sexual assault, a crime has already been committed against her person. Worse, any woman who has defended herself from sexual harassment in the gaming community can tell you that her self-defence was a precursor to ostracism as the men in the community embraced the predator and expelled his victim for “creating drama”. As if the perpetrator of the crime wasn’t responsible for the “drama” in the first place!

Amid the rise of lone wolf terrorism it is important for the ethical, responsible members of the gaming community to address and put a stop to it before anyone is harmed. Credit for foiling a potential mass shooting at the Pokemon World Championship goes to an unnamed forum moderator who had the sense to notice the dangerous, violent rhetoric of his posters and alert the authorities. How many sexual assaults could be prevented in the gaming community by men extending that same concern to women?

White male terrorism is the white underbelly of the gaming community, meant to terrify and disrupt the lives of those who threaten the status quo by race, gender, or sexuality. It succeeds because the majority of men in the community are too cowardly to stand against the bullies and the terrorists. At best, these cowards ignore the problem. At worst, they join the terrorists in blaming their victims for the abuse. The point of online terrorism is that it is endless, omnipresent, and anonymous. I have no way of knowing whether the person with whom I’m gaming is safe or the person who wants to “slit [my] throat and fuck the gash until [I] drown in cum”. Knowing that the person sending those e-mails could be anyone and the community will not support me if/when I am attacked keeps myself and many others from the hobby.

The majority of gamers do not engage in online terrorism, but are instead complicit in lower levels of harassment. It is almost impossible to convince gamers that sexist and racist jokes are unacceptable and that they make others uncomfortable and drive people off. Indeed, raising this issue at all often results in threats and more terrorism. It is unsurprising then that people with conscience have come together to create Hater Free Wednesdays/Saturdays—a master list of comic and game stores and their relative safety for women and minorities.

Gamers bemoan the loss of the local game store while ignoring their culpability for its demise. Amazon is blamed for the death of local game stores, but few gamers stop to question why so many people are choosing to buy social games in such an asocial manner.

++++
It is 2009 and an aboriginal woman is looking at the metal miniatures on the wall. My co-worker helps her as I stock the display shelves.

“Do you have any models that look like me?” the woman asks.

“We only have normal models,” my co-worker titters, “I can order you the noble savage.”

The woman leaves. We never see her again.
++++
It is 2010 and a young black man with a backpack is talking to me about the comparative merits of Pathfinder vs D&D 4th Edition. I tell him we have drop in games and wave him over to a group currently playing.

“Sup, my n*****!” the white men shout.

I apologise but the man is already out the door. I report the incident to the owner.

“I’m not throwing away good customers just because someone is oversensitive.”
++++
It is 2001, 2002, 2003, 2004, 2005, 2006, 2007, 2008 and hands are on my ass and breasts and all over my body. Groping, fondling, feeling whatever they please.

The smell of print comics gives me flashbacks now.
++++
It is May and I am discussing the problem with gamers and harassment with friends over dinner.

“It’s strange to talk about a moral event horizon,” my friend says as he sips his beer, “but when this dude invited me to his house to play Pimp: the Backhanding that was the end of the friendship.”

Another man nods, “I used to really enjoy trading card games, but the community is so hateful I can’t bring any of my friends. Why play a game with people you can’t stand, right?”

“Everything changed when I had a daughter,” says a third, “whenever someone makes a joke, I think about them directing it at her. I can’t let my daughter grow up around those attitudes.”
++++
It is 2005 and I am arguing with my future husband about women in gaming.

“Women game as much as men,” I say, “they just don’t do it in public and don’t game with self-identified gamers because it’s too dangerous.”

“That’s not what my experience in the hobby has been.”

“Wait and see.”
++++
It is 2008 and women who have never gamed fight for a spot at our table. We play with a politician, a lawyer, a chemist, and many others. Most of us are women, although some are genderqueer. We commiserate over stories of groping and sexism at our “friendly” local game stores and laugh at the notion that women don’t game.

In 2014, when I can’t run games anymore, they splinter off into several different groups. They buy everything online and never set foot in game stores. They’ve learned the hard lessons.
++++
It is 2007 and I am discussing the comparative merits of the Circle Orboros versus the Legion of Everblight when I hear a loud crack and a sharp pain in my rear. I jump and shriek in fury.

“Relax, it’s a compliment,” says the Pressganger.

I curse out the offending player.

“Look, you can’t play with us if you’re going to get emotional over every little thing.” The rest of the players nod in agreement.

I leave. It will be a cold day in hell before Privateer Press gets any of my money.
++++

The prominence of white male terrorism in the geek community is obvious to everyone except straight white men. Gamergate, Sad Puppies, and the necessity of the Cosplay is NOT Consent movement, to name just a few, have brought to light the dangerously retrograde ideas espoused by the gaming community. If gamers didn’t think the harassment was justified or warranted, they would speak out against it. That the community and industry as a whole choses to remain silent in the face of widespread public condemnation of its bigotry speaks volumes.

Gamers want to believe that they are logical, sensible, and rational. But there is nothing logical, sensible, or rational about making your peers and customers run a gauntlet of bigotry for the dubious privilege of playing a game in a space where people like you (and the people sympathetic to you) are despised. When confronted with bigotry in the community, it costs nothing—indeed, I argue it is the moral imperative of the community—to shut it down clearly and unequivocally. “We are aware that some of our fans have had negative experiences in the community. Let it be known that Company/Store does not stand for any racist, sexist, or otherwise bigoted behaviour. We care about providing a healthy and competitive gaming scene for everyone. If we see or hear any abuse, the offending player will be reprimanded, and, if necessary, expelled for an indefinite duration.”

Feel free to steal that, gamers. You don’t even need to credit me.

Harassment in nerd hobbies has been quantified and studied and the results are appalling. 25% of the respondents reported harassment, 13% reported unwelcome sexual comments, and 8% reported groping, sexual assault, or rape. If 13% of SDCC attendees receive unwelcome sexual comments, that’s over 17,000 people being sexually harassed every convention. You would have to be an idiot to think none of these people are going to talk to each other, and cavernously evil to dismiss everyone as lying. As for sexual assault? That’s over 10,000 people being groped at SDCC, and it doesn’t count people who are groped more than once. Many of my friends have given up their once-beloved con circuit because they can no longer deal with, as one prominent cosplayer put it, “men handling me like a piece of meat”.

++++
It is 2005 and I am at I-Con. I duck into the wargaming room looking for a demo and a place to spend my money. I lean over a table to get a better look at the game in progress and feel a hand slide up my skirt. I scream and turn around, but everyone is staring at their tables, heads down over their games.

“Someone grabbed my ass!”

The man doing the demo rolls his eyes, “Quit making stuff up. You don’t need the attention.”

I roll my eyes back and leave. That night, I find a constellation of five bruises on my ass.
++++

Men can shout all they like that #notallmen harass women, but as long as gamers defend their bigoted behaviour as a “sense of humour” (implying that women who don’t like being groped are somehow at fault), #allmen are complicit in the harassment. Predators rely on other people thinking they’re joking, and when gamers make jokes like “sleeping girls can’t say no”, those predators feel safe and welcomed in the community, while their victims are forced to flee for their safety. Even if the woman does press charges, the police report goes nowhere without the rest of the community willing to testify on her behalf instead of protecting their rapey friend. Predators know this, which is one of the many reasons “Go to the police!” is the constant refrain to shut down ANY discussion of safety in gaming.

Even though it always results in a deluge of threats, I am committed to speaking about my experiences with sexual assault, harassment, and rape in the gaming hobby. The most heartbreaking thing is that every time I do, I receive dozens of messages from men and women who have endured the same and do not feel they can speak up because the community is so hostile to their reality. I’ve heard from several people who, when trying to discuss their sexual assault, have it treated like a joke and laughed at by members of the community. I can’t think of better evidence that the gaming community is far too tolerant of goddamn monsters.

When the majority of gamers refuse to speak up in support of those marginalised, they send the message that the hobby is full of bullies and they like it that way. “There are assholes in every group” is the rallying cry, yet that statement is nonsense to anyone who has spent the barest amount of time cultivating a healthy community. “Asshole behaviour” only persists because the majority of men are too cowardly to call the assholes what they are. The women who speak up against bullying and assault are treated as solely responsible for their safety, while cowards pretend that “staying neutral” is a virtue instead of tacitly condoning the rampant harassment and bigotry. The gaming community has some of the worst excesses of rape culture outside of a Duggar convention.

But if you can’t hear it from a woman, maybe you can hear it from a man.

What can men do? They can support and believe women, POC, and anyone else marginalised by the hobby at large. They can refuse to stand for assholes in their community. There are good men who know their friends’ stories, but are fearful of sharing them lest their friends receive harassment. You don’t need to share the details. You only need to share that you know it’s a problem. (The aggressive digging into trauma is a bullying tactic meant to further silence and traumatise the victims. Do not fall for it.) I truly believe that if the good men in the community have the courage to stand up for what’s right, they can change the image of a gamer from a slavering neckbearded rapist anonymously e-mailing women death threats to something more positive.

As for Wyrd, despite this egregious and dangerous misstep I want to believe their hearts are in the right place. Call them at (678) 355-5055 or fill out a feedback form and let them know that you want a game free from harassment. If only they spent as much effort protecting their female fans from harassment as they do themselves from criticism.

Updated for those with Firewalls.

Dice.

[sdematt]

Having not read the article, I'll have this to say. I'll just pass on the lessons my dad taught me.

Be nice and help people out.

Literally no point having fewer people play Magic. Why can't we all just get along? #Canadian

[Dice_Box]

I know more than one person on this site who is a woman and to date have seen no issues arise from it. I also play with a Trans in my group and a woman with severe sight issues. I wish the people around me were the ones that people meet more often who are not sending threats or feel at all uneasy about having others around.

Role play (White Wolf is my breed and butter) is a lot more fun when you have a diverse group. I wish this was not something others fear.


OK time for a direction shift. Too much of this is hung up on the OP and the title. I am going to point to some other reading merital and a podcast.

Women in Magic by Megan Wolff. (http://www.starcitygames.com/article/31023_Women-In-Magic-the-Gathering.html)

Women And Magic by Jim Davis. (https://archive.is/0XaZO#selection-719.0-719.15)

Women and Magic: A Rebuttal by Anastacia Tomson. (http://www.mtgdiversity.org/women-and-magic-a-rebuttal/)

(Podcast) Magic the Amateuring Episode 126: Sigh. (http://www.magictheamateuring.com/mta-episode-126-sigh/)

This is all worth a read. The last part is the Blogatog (http://markrosewater.tumblr.com/post/122011706093/im-not-sure-how-much-you-may-want-to-debate-this) on the whole thing that summed it up well. "I do not see this happening in my store" is not a talking point, it is a statement. The fact is, this does happen and it is an issue. Just because it does not happen in my local store does not change the fact that it does.

Also on reflection I have seen something like this happen locally. I will not go into details due to privacy and the person in question having an account here (So I will text them and see if they wish to speak for themselves). But just because we do not see it does not mean its not effecting people.

Also people, really do listen to that podcast.

[Bobmans]

People that are being bullied should always realize that it tells more about the bully then about themselves. #neverbackdown

[Esper3k]

Those stories make me sad for both the victims and the state of gaming :(

[Stuart]

While all of this was thoroughly depressing, it was particularly shitty to hear your friend's experiences with victim-blaming.


I don't think it applies as much to MTG per se, as WOTC has been excellent at creating and marketing an inclusionary product.

While WotC is somewhat more inclusive than other companies, most women they depict in their art are 1) white and 2) highly sexualized. I'm always surprised to hear women and minority gamers are drawn to MtG when the characters WotC puts forth for them to identify with are white and extremely top heavy (though I guess all of us dumpy white guys identify with Gideon, so who knows).

[Ace/Homebrew]

I got "Access Denied: You're going to get fired!" messages trying to read the article... :rolleyes:

History says (but I hope is wrong) this thread will devolve into a Gaming Bros vs. SJW shoutfest until locked.







Edit - Noctalor draws first blood in the devolution!

[Richard Cheese]

If these stories are true, that is disgusting.

If these stories are falsified, that is disgusting.

[Sloshthedark]

whatta hell have I just read... this gets progressively awkward while listening to Slayer in public transport ... I tried to imagine this happening in a community I'm part of, fortunately I really can't, but I'm only in Mtg...

[Ace/Homebrew]

In our community we have an autistic guy, we had for a long time a player that had Husher Syndrome (basicly you are almost deaf and you sight decay gradually into blindness), we have many womens, guy from all countrys and most community are like that, so yes, i feel entitled to call bullshit
Because your community = all communities? You can't seriously be that ignorant (although based on the hyperbole in your post... maybe you are).

The important part of jrthethird's post wasn't the link... it was this part:

There is still bullying (and worse) based on gender, race, or sexuality at conventions and among other gaming communities that may share a playing space at our LGS and if we choose to ignore it, we're only helping the problem.

[HammerAndSickled]

Not gonna step into the minefield of this topic, but damn, every single anecdote in that "article" sounds completely made up. Like R/thathappened level bullshit. There's no way you get death threats from a company's employees and the company's HR department doesn't even want to hear it, there's no way you get assaulted and convention staff tell you to keep it quiet, these are large companies that have to consider the strong legal implications of every action and they would not just dismiss her like she claims. And if she WAS dismissed she can subpoena the recordings that they make when you call a company directly. Almost assuredly falsified.

[Noctalor]

Because your community = all communities? You can't seriously be that ignorant (although based on the hyperbole in your post... maybe you are).

The important part of jrthethird's post wasn't the link... it was this part:

Our community = all communities is EXACTLY what that post is all about.

I said that mine and most of the community i met are polite and i never saw a "terrorist" punching in the face "that n****" of rape a 12yo girl.

That post is making anecdotal evidence, not mine, most of us never experienced shit like that, im not making this up.
And i claim that most of that anecdotal evidence is just untrue and made up, there is no way that most of those stories are true.
And im not talking about the rest of the post, im focusing on the link the op provided, i have no reason to focus on the rest of the post since is obvious that any guy in the right mind would agree

[Ace/Homebrew]

Fair enough, I didn't get to read the information at the link because of a firewall...

And your point made it across this time without all the hyperbole. :smile:

[Noctalor]

Fair enough, I didn't get to read the information at the link because of a firewall...

And your point made it across this time without all the hyperbole. :smile:

Most of those hyperbole are contained in that post, this should help to understand how far it goes.

[Ace/Homebrew]

Then I suppose we can agree Richard wins this thread.


If these stories are true, that is disgusting.

If these stories are falsified, that is disgusting.

[Dice_Box]

We have a winner. Lets leave this to fade away on that happy note.

[Dice_Box]

Ok. I am reopening this after some discussion with Zilla and some inflection on the topic. Here are the rules:

I will be hoping that everyone can play along nicely, but if not I will be deleting posts with pregidious.

If you make a post that is overly aggressive or antagonising, I will bring your post up with the other mods with the intention of handing out an infraction.

Please be civil, I am not saying this at any one person. I do think this is a topic that can produce meaningful discourse and while might be hard to have, can also be productive. These topics also have a history of ending in flames. Please, let's have more of the former and less of the latter.

[CutthroatCasual]

If these stories are true, that is disgusting.

If these stories are falsified, that is disgusting.

While I don't disagree that inappropriate comments in LGSes happen, because they most certainly do, there is no way that a cop would call a crying rape victim a slut and hang up on her. I stopped reading there, so I don't know if there are more falsified experiences.

[GreatWhale]

Ok. I am reopening this after some discussion with Zilla and some inflection on the topic. Here are the rules:

I will be hoping that everyone can play along nicely, but if not I will be deleting posts with pregidious.

If you make a post that is overly aggressive or antagonising, I will bring your post up with the other mods with the intention of handing out an infraction.

Please be civil, I am not saying this at any one person. I do think this is a topic that can produce meaningful discourse and while might be hard to have, can also be productive. These topics also have a history of ending in flames. Please, let's have more of the former and less of the latter.



I loved that this was locked, but since its unlocked.

The original post was overly aggressive and antagonising by branding all "white" "males" as terrorists in the title of the article. That is not a way to conduct a civil discourse.

[square_two]

I have only gotten into MtG within the past year and a half. There are a couple of disreputable characters at my LGS but they tend to be avoided by...everyone. To a bit of a ridiculous degree. The store owner's wife is very attractive and is often at the store, so she will get looks but nothing worse than what she gets anywhere else (I'm very good friends with their family). At least, that is as far as I know.

I'm good friends with about a dozen or so people, a small playgroup that does DnD together, and will travel together for MtG events. One of the guy's sister is involved although she is the one that tends to be the most vulgar. So, I can't say I've noticed or seen anything near what the OP linked. Especially the direct, public, blaring vulgar remarks. Maybe it's just that I'm in a fairly good-natured part of the south. I do get annoyed at how often "rape" is used as hyperbole, but I tend to be someone who is always aware of others around me - heck I can't even stand being in a car with loud music blaring cause I just know that it could piss others off. Just an immature word to throw around to describe way too many situations imo. To be clear, I'm talking about people blaring "and then he topdecked X card and totally raped me!". Stop complaining, and stop comparing losing a card game to being raped.

[Dice_Box]

While perhaps the op is not the best one to kick start a conversation with, it's one worth having.

There is a podcast called "The girlfriend bracket" that I think you guys should listen too if you don't think this is not an issue in Magic. I have read articles (I will try and track them down) written by women who play that say they are often uncomfortable at events. The reasons go from looks to questions to borderline abusive behaviour.

Now while this is stomped out by Wizards like an innocent Lodestone Golem, and really, props to Wizards, it's one of the driving forces that keeps this a mostly male dominated game in the competitive scene.

This is a real issue, even if this is not a great kick start for the topic.

Edit.
Just a though, go to an article about women in MTG and read the comments section. I can wait. Take your time. When you come back, be ready for a talk.

Edit:
http://markrosewater.tumblr.com/post/122011706093/im-not-sure-how-much-you-may-want-to-debate-this

[Julian23]

I do agree that a lot of these examples sound extreme and if I had to decide, I would probably think that *some* examples are either made up or blown out of proportion.

BUT that doesn't mean that the whole issue can't be discussed in the first place. Just because there's no sexism or discrimination at your store or every place you've been to, doesn't mean that there might not be a problem. If you think the article is overplaying its alleged anecdotical evidence, tell us, but don't make the stupid mistake of trying to "invalidate" it with your own stories. That's just stupid and doesn't add anything to the discussion.

[square_two]

I would be interested in hearing from perspectives of women in different regions of the US, and also in Europe. Curious to see if there are differences...also between types of events perhaps? Or perhaps the problem is way more widespread than I'd like to imagine. I like to think of legacy players as being older, wiser, and more mature. My less-than-handful experience of actual large in-person legacy events is of no value here.

After hearing these types of posts (and similarly, hearing from a lot of minority activist groups), I'm left wondering...well, what do I do? Just being honest here. I'd like to think I'd be noble enough, and aware enough to notice it happening in front of me, to intervene appropriately in such extreme situations as described in the OP's link.

[Jo11ygrnreefer]

Very disgusting and disturbing topic. Do not think this is the norm for the average white male gamer. Apparently, I have never witnessed something like this in my gaming community. If this happened in front of me, I would kick the living shit out of any instigator, cause chivalry means something to some of us. Everyone's been warned, end of discussion.

[Ace/Homebrew]

I would be interested in hearing from perspectives of women in different regions of the US, and also in Europe.
While this would be insightful and helpful for people to gain perspective, it is going to prove very difficult for 2 reasons.


Legacy, which is the focus of this forum, does not have a large female population.
Unless they create a sock-puppet account, sharing their experience will effectively 'out' members who might prefer to keep their gender a private matter.

The main benefit of discussions like these lie in learning where your own biases and discriminations exist. I like to consider myself open-minded and inclusive of all people, but I'm not. If a woman sits across from me at a large event, the thought of 'easy win' still crosses my mind in the same way it would if it were a 13-year-old boy.
I grew up in a suburban area where homophobic terms were thrown around casually. I participated in that without even realizing how it turned people into 'others' and fostered an environment where truly hateful speech could be ignored or laughed at.

But by having the discussion more and more I've learned what I need to work on. I will never be perfect, but I can try to improve myself.

[Dice_Box]

OK time for a direction shift. Too much of this is hung up on the OP and the title. I am going to point to some other reading material and a podcast.

Women in Magic by Megan Wolff. (http://www.starcitygames.com/article/31023_Women-In-Magic-the-Gathering.html)

Women And Magic by Jim Davis. (https://archive.is/0XaZO#selection-719.0-719.15)

Women and Magic: A Rebuttal by Anastacia Tomson. (http://www.mtgdiversity.org/women-and-magic-a-rebuttal/)

(Podcast) Magic the Amateuring Episode 126: Sigh. (http://www.magictheamateuring.com/mta-episode-126-sigh/)

This is all worth a read. The last part is the Blogatog (http://markrosewater.tumblr.com/post/122011706093/im-not-sure-how-much-you-may-want-to-debate-this) on the whole thing that summed it up well. "I do not see this happening in my store" is not a talking point, it is a statement. The fact is, this does happen and it is an issue. Just because it does not happen in my local store does not change the fact that it does.

Also on reflection I have seen something like this happen locally. I will not go into details due to privacy and the person in question having an account here (So I will text them and see if they wish to speak for themselves). But just because we do not see it does not mean its not effecting people.

Also people, really do listen to that podcast.

[ahg113]

Much like Ace/Homebrew, I haven't read the OP link because work firewall.

Just on the basis though of MtG being a game filled with white terrorist, while I find it amusing, there's always grains of truth in the most outlandish statements.

Anecdotal evidence from the place that would be my LGS if I participated more than twice a year- as a black guy who grew up in the suburbs, I used to get called white a lot. It's a distasteful and annoying show of insensitivity and disrespect. At the LGS, a group of guys I know by face, but not name, were heckling another of their group by calling him, "... so white," etc. The hecklers are white, the heckled is black. I spoke up and they stopped, nothing much of it. Even little gestures between friends can be offensive, the respect border and joking border are blurry. Those hecklers weren't being mean intentionally, they were being douches because they didn't know better.

And to echo Ace/Homebrew, by and large we're predominately male in this group. Us extrapolating what we think the female members of our playgroups think/feel without having explicitly asked them may be a bridge too far.

[Dice_Box]

Updated the OP so that those behind a firewall can read it.

[square_two]

Also people, really do listen to that podcast.

I'll try to get it saved and will listen within the week - I've got a giant road trip ahead of me this weekend and plan to download several recent MTG podcasts.

There are, I believe, a couple of prominent female MtG streamers on twitch. I have heard good things and will try to tune in sometime. Not sure if they ever bring up these topics, but perhaps it comes up through the chat at times.

[Ace/Homebrew]

Updated the OP so that those behind a firewall can read it.
Thank you.



Most of those comments absolutely sound true. GamerGate validates any of the ones discussing online harassment against women.

I absolutely believe these two:

++++
It is 2009 and an aboriginal woman is looking at the metal miniatures on the wall. My co-worker helps her as I stock the display shelves.

“Do you have any models that look like me?” the woman asks.

“We only have normal models,” my co-worker titters, “I can order you the noble savage.”

The woman leaves. We never see her again.
++++
It is 2010 and a young black man with a backpack is talking to me about the comparative merits of Pathfinder vs D&D 4th Edition. I tell him we have drop in games and wave him over to a group currently playing.

“Sup, my n*****!” the white men shout.

I apologise but the man is already out the door. I report the incident to the owner.

“I’m not throwing away good customers just because someone is oversensitive.”
++++

I completely get how a statement like "The prominence of white male terrorism in the geek community is obvious to everyone except straight white men." could keep some people from reading further. But a lot of those comments ring true for many people.

[maharis]

While I don't disagree that inappropriate comments in LGSes happen, because they most certainly do, there is no way that a cop would call a crying rape victim a slut and hang up on her. I stopped reading there, so I don't know if there are more falsified experiences.

There's no way you can say this with any degree of certainty. There are more than enough documented cases of police malfeasance to make such an experience possible.

http://deadspin.com/report-police-chief-tied-to-jameis-winston-case-is-lec-1768931617

^ That's just the latest in a twisted tale of police gaslighting alleged sexual assault victims and protecting alleged criminals. You can find links to the years of reporting on the case if you're interested.

The upshot is, police are people too and are just as subject to prejudices as any of the rest of us.

Personally, I don't think any of this stuff is impossible. I think skepticism is fine, and I am partially skeptical given Wyrd's founder has responded. But I do think this is a topic worth discussing.

But when you (the royal you, not CutthroatCasual) dismisses something as impossible so quickly, you reveal your own bias. People don't always do the right thing, and biases and prejudices exist.

Speaking specifically about Magic: The Gathering live tournaments, the majority of attendees -- perhaps the vast majority? -- are white men. So it can be difficult for us to empathize with what a woman or minority person might experience. In this case, perhaps it would be helpful to imagine yourself as the minority: Would you feel comfortable? How many "harmless jokes" would you endure before feeling threatened or unsafe? If someone actually attacked or explicitly threatened you, how would you feel if the report was relayed to a person who shared that person's characteristics and not your own?

Here is a link to the Leaving a Legacy podcast in wihch a woman related some of her experiences at an LGS. Could add this to the "should listens" -- there is one minorly explosive segment where you will shake your head in disbelief, but hopefully not unbelief. Are we doing enough to ensure that this kind of behavior is unacceptable?

http://mtgcast.com/mtgcast-podcast-shows/active-podcast-shows/leaving-a-legacy/leaving-a-legacy-ep-54-beautiful-colossus

[supremePINEAPPLE]

In my opinion the unfortunate truth is that most magic players are shit people and there aren't any good reasons for self-respecting women (or anyone else really) to interact with said shit people. These same shit people provide the core of the business for card shops which are the main form of sanctioned play.

The last time I went to one of the nastier shops near me to pick up some cards there were three morbidly obese guys behind the counter and each of them flashed me their crack within a 5 minute purchase. You could then go into the bathroom and observe a nice layer of piss covering everything. Random stains are all over the carpet, booster wrappers are strewn about, and the lovely bouquet of BO permeates everything. It's just off-putting, pathetic, and worst of all, commonplace.

[Barook]

I don't know how some people can expect a serious discussion about a Tumblr blog post of a woman screaming rape and other hilarious misuse of words. :really:

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CZMHIZAWAAIGUPU.jpg

Thing is, Wizards embraces "shit people" (as supremePINEAPPLE calls them) because they make up a good chunk of their customers. Remember Asscrack guy?

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/77/d1/89/77d189ef4cb1a68c72286038a196bcb5.jpg

Was it a dick move? Certainly. But dressing like this is NOT okay when everybody sees your asscrack. What was Wizards' reaction? Ban the guy, but don't enforce a minimum dress code for their events because they don't want to alienate their customer base. And then you wonder why most women don't want to go to events when there are smelly, unwashed assholes everywhere.

[barcode]

Was it a dick move? Certainly. But dressing like this is NOT okay when everybody sees your asscrack. What was Wizards' reaction? Ban the guy, but don't enforce a minimum dress code for their events because they don't want to alienate their customer base. And then you wonder why most women don't want to go to events when there are smelly, unwashed assholes everywhere.

Spotted a victim blamer.

[Mr.C]

Hope my mine detector works.

I, uh, take any inflammatory post with a grain of salt. The stories on that post are absolutely insane. Like someone said, r/thathappened levels of insane. But it got me curious, I want to read through the human rights case she won against her employer.

That said, I've been playing Magic for 15 years now (yeesh). I would say it's definitely a misogynistic community, especially here in North America. It's also not a "white male" problem. I cringe every time I read that, even though I'm a minority [Latin American immigrant with Indian (Native South-American) great-grandfather].

It's more of a "shitty introverts with no social skills whatsoever" problem. White, black, latino, purple, green, doesn't matter. Gaming attracts all types of social outcasts with little social filter that should probably not even leave home. It's not a color problem, that's for sure. Asshole gamers come in every shape and color.

Edit: Gonna go try and read the rest of it, but the whole "white male terrorism" is triggering the fuck out of me. Can't people write opinion pieces without strong biases? Geez.

Edit 2: I want to see those harassing emails. And I *really* want to read through that human rights case.

[iamajellydonut]

Edit 2: I want to see those harassing emails. And I *really* want to read through that human rights case.

And solve the mystery of the Wyrd Miniatures complaint.

[LOLWut]

Complaint against hateful "White male terrorism" comments pulled.

Curtain pulled, yep.

It was pulled because it was worded sarcastically and dismissively. If you want to actually join the conversation, you're welcome to. -zilla

[Megadeus]

Hope my mine detector works.

I, uh, take any inflammatory post with a grain of salt. The stories on that post are absolutely insane. Like someone said, r/thathappened levels of insane. But it got me curious, I want to read through the human rights case she won against her employer.

That said, I've been playing Magic for 15 years now (yeesh). I would say it's definitely a misogynistic community, especially here in North America. It's also not a "white male" problem. I cringe every time I read that, even though I'm a minority [Latin American immigrant with Indian (Native South-American) great-grandfather].

It's more of a "shitty introverts with no social skills whatsoever" problem. White, black, latino, purple, green, doesn't matter. Gaming attracts all types of social outcasts with little social filter that should probably not even leave home. It's not a color problem, that's for sure. Asshole gamers come in every shape and color.

Edit: Gonna go try and read the rest of it, but the whole "white male terrorism" is triggering the fuck out of me. Can't people write opinion pieces without strong biases? Geez.

Edit 2: I want to see those harassing emails. And I *really* want to read through that human rights case.
I pretty much agree. Calling people white male terrorists is completely ridiculous and is completely against the extreme generalization that people like this usually hate. And 100% on the aspect of it being more because of the type of people gaming attracts

[Aggro_zombies]

I think we can all agree that it's possible to acknowledge that there are creepers and shitheads in the community without getting hung up on shrill Tumblr-ese.

Like, I have walked into LGSes before where the play tables are covered in oversized gaming mats with women in compromising poses that can only be reached and held by someone who's done a shitload of yoga and is also double-jointed, while wearing maybe - maybe - a total of one square foot of fabric on their bodies, and that's just treated as perfectly normal decor. You'll have 250+ lb guys sit down with the anime girl pinup sleeves and no one bats an eye or says anything to them because they don't think it's any of their business or they don't want to hurt anyone's feelings or something. But that - all of that, collectively - sends a message about the community. As the game increases in popularity, stuff like this is going to generate more and more friction because people are going to have a very reasonable expectation that there's somewhere they can go to meet and play people outside their circle of friends that doesn't require a PG-13 warning or a gas mask and emergency deodorant. We're all, collectively, responsible for helping to create and maintain those kinds of places.

Here, I'll tell you a story: I used to work at an LGS that had a fairly large (by Magic standards) female community. One day, one of the women - who had been quite active in the Commander circles up to this point - just stopped showing up. I thought she'd moved away until a few months later one of the other women mentioned in passing to me that one of our male customers had started stalking her to and from the LGS. She had left because she hadn't felt safe around him and was now playing at an LGS further away from where she lived than we were because the dude didn't have a car and thus couldn't follow her on public transit. We knew who the guy was, too, but the store owner wouldn't take any action about it or let us do anything, so the dude just continued to show up and play in events like nothing had happened.

Creeps exist, guys. "White male terrorist" shit aside, these people are real and do real damage, but they can also be tossed out of the community if you do something.

[Zilla]

I saw this blog post on my Facebook feed before I saw it linked here. My good friend Jared posted this reply which I agree with:


Sadly I feel like the use of the word "terrorism" here will do more harm than good. It conflates international terrorism with physical, sexual and emotional abuse. I think the net effect will be people complaining that she is being overly dramatic.
I think the author intentionally chose this term because she knew it would be attention grabbing, and I think it's a bummer that much of the article's criticism will be due to that choice. It creates a convenient way for people to ignore the rest of the contents of her post, which I think are largely on point.

When I was discussing with Dice earlier about whether or not we should keep this thread open, I told him I wanted to, despite the fact that it could get ugly. Perhaps because it could. I'm the father of a young girl, and I very much hope she'll share my interest in gaming as she gets older. It's extremely important to me on a personal level that we make progress towards making women feel equal, comfortable, and welcome in our community.

I think it's very easy to believe that this kind of thing doesn't just doesn't exist or is getting terribly overblown when you don't see it happening in your own social circles or at your own LGS. It does though. I promise you it does. I've seen instances of it myself, and I've heard stories from women whom I trust and respect about it. It's a problem. If you're one of those guys that finds it detestable and are willing to do something about it when you see it, great. Thank you. You're fucking awesome, and we need more people like you.

If you think this isn't a problem, it's either because you genuinely believe that women don't deserve equal treatment, or, more likely, it's because you haven't been exposed to it and it seems so far fetched that people can behave this way that it's unbelievable to you. If you're the former, go fuck yourself. If you're the latter, I encourage you to consider that just because you don't see it doesn't mean it's not an issue. The idea that women who write articles like this one are just attention seeking liars with nothing better to do is preposterous and insulting. If even a quarter of what she wrote is true, it's too much, and we can do better.

[[SLAYER]chaos]

It's more of a "shitty introverts with no social skills whatsoever" problem. White, black, latino, purple, green, doesn't matter. Gaming attracts all types of social outcasts with little social filter that should probably not even leave home. It's not a color problem, that's for sure. Asshole gamers come in every shape and color.

This is pretty much what I was going to say too. As much as everyone says "not at my LGS" there's almost ALWAYS at least a small group of guys that are gigantic assholes.

[Megadeus]

I get what you're saying Zilla. My big point is the wording that was used implies that this happens because it's a game largely played by white males. It's more in my opinion because of the type of person that these sorts of hobbies attract. I don't think any reasonable human being thinks anything that was said to have happened is okay. While I get that this is literally a personal blog post, if you're going to post something you would like to be taken seriously, you really need to stay as objective as possible, and "white male terrorist" is pretty much the opposite along with basically being on par with what many see as a negative side of tumblr posts.

[cdr]

Male nerds have by and large become the bullies and gatekeepers we claim to have despised in our childhoods. Most game shop crowds I've seen are very hostile in large and small ways to anyone who doesn't fit their idea of the stereotypical geek, and they mostly don't even realize it.

Shit like this


While I don't disagree that inappropriate comments in LGSes happen, because they most certainly do, there is no way that a cop would call a crying rape victim a slut and hang up on her. I stopped reading there, so I don't know if there are more falsified experiences.

and this


I don't know how some people can expect a serious discussion about a Tumblr blog post of a woman screaming rape and other hilarious misuse of words.

is just pathetic.

[Zilla]

I get what you're saying Zilla. My big point is the wording that was used implies that this happens because it's a game largely played by white males. It's more in my opinion because of the type of person that these sorts of hobbies attract. I don't think any reasonable human being thinks anything that was said to have happened is okay. While I get that this is literally a personal blog post, if you're going to post something you would like to be taken seriously, you really need to stay as objective as possible, and "white male terrorist" is pretty much the opposite along with basically being on par with what many see as a negative side of tumblr posts.
Granted. As I said, I think the choice of the term "Terrorist" was a mistake that hurts the author's cause more than helps it. I also agree that the White Male descriptor isn't particularly helpful because, as you said, that just happens to be the majority makeup of the current gaming community (although it'd be great if that changed.) That being said, White Males are a pretty fucking lucky bunch on the whole and if they're offended by being labeled as White Males they should probably just sack up, naw mean? (For clarity: I am a white male.)

All that aside, the crux of the article is important despite her inflammatory choice of labels. It isn't so much that people think the behavior she described is okay, it's that they don't believe it actually happens. It does, and people need to hear about it because it's fucking inexcusable.

Also, as much as I dislike her usage of "White Male Terrorist," a big part of me thinks we wouldn't be discussing her article at all if she hadn't used it. Do the ends justify the means? I'm not sure. But I'm glad we're talking about it.

[Mr.C]

Granted. As I said, I think the choice of the term "Terrorist" was a mistake that hurts the author's cause more than helps it. I also agree that the White Male descriptor isn't particularly helpful because, as you said, that just happens to be the majority makeup of the current gaming community (although it'd be great if that changed.) That being said, White Males are a pretty fucking lucky bunch on the whole and if they're offended by being labeled as White Males they should probably just sack up, naw mean? (For clarity: I am a white male.)

All that aside, the crux of the article is important despite her inflammatory choice of labels. It isn't so much that people think the behavior she described is okay, it's that they don't believe it actually happens. It does, and people need to hear about it because it's fucking inexcusable.

Also, as much as I dislike her usage of "White Male Terrorist," a big part of me thinks we wouldn't be discussing her article at all if she hadn't used it. Do the ends justify the means? I'm not sure. But I'm glad we're talking about it.

It could have been a great opinion piece that I would have happily passed along. Instead, it comes across as a shrill SJW-esque blogpost.

Too bad, because I've witnessed a lot of the tamer stuff. More often than not I'd call people about, but that's usually met with awkward laughter or simply indifference.

I don't go to game stores much these days. This kind of behaviour is one of the reasons.

[LOLWut]

Granted. As I said, I think the choice of the term "Terrorist" was a mistake that hurts the author's cause more than helps it. I also agree that the White Male descriptor isn't particularly helpful because, as you said, that just happens to be the majority makeup of the current gaming community (although it'd be great if that changed.) That being said, White Males are a pretty fucking lucky bunch on the whole and if they're offended by being labeled as White Males they should probably just sack up, naw mean? (For clarity: I am a white male.)

All that aside, the crux of the article is important despite her inflammatory choice of labels. It isn't so much that people think the behavior she described is okay, it's that they don't believe it actually happens. It does, and people need to hear about it because it's fucking inexcusable.

Also, as much as I dislike her usage of "White Male Terrorist," a big part of me thinks we wouldn't be discussing her article at all if she hadn't used it. Do the ends justify the means? I'm not sure. But I'm glad we're talking about it.

My friend was called a Black rapist at a party. Should he sack up if he's offended at being labeled as a Black male?

Do the ends justify the means if it kickstarted a discussion on sexual assault, especially if the term was written in an article exploring the topic?

[cdr]

My friend was called a Black rapist at a party. Should he sack up if he's offended at being labeled as a Black male?

Do the ends justify the means if it kickstarted a discussion on sexual assault, especially if the term was written in an article exploring the topic?

Did you actually think about what you just wrote? You're comparing calling someone white to calling someone a "black rapist".

[LOLWut]

Go look up "false equivalency" in the dictionary. I think you'll find a screenshot of your post.

Did you actually think about what you just wrote? You're comparing calling someone white to calling someone a "black rapist".

Did you actually think about what you just wrote? The comparison is to "White Male Terrorist", not "white".

[cdr]

Did you actually think about what you just wrote? The comparison is to "White Male Terrorist", not "white".

What stigma exactly do you think "white" or "male" has? I'll help you out: Zero, zilch, nada. "White male terrorist" has about as much weight as calling someone rich and strong. The US is not still struggling with hundreds of years of virulent racism against white people.

[barcode]

This kind of crap is why we can't have a reasonable discussion. Guys are getting into meta-arguments about womens' right to complain about shitty treatment by male dominated communities, as if there's some permission required to use specific language for literary effect.

It's so predictable.

[cdr]

It's so predictable.

Agree there. Male nerds really, desperately need to grow up. Some seem to be stuck in a mindset like they're the underdogs in highschool even though I know a lot of us are 30+ already. I've got news for you: we have reached the point where we are the metaphorical jocks. We are the majority, we are the ones with the social power, and we as a group are as bad as any group of bullies there ever was.

[Jamaican Zombie Legend]

BUT that doesn't mean that the whole issue can't be discussed in the first place. Just because there's no sexism or discrimination at your store or every place you've been to, doesn't mean that there might not be a problem. If you think the article is overplaying its alleged anecdotical evidence, tell us, but don't make the stupid mistake of trying to "invalidate" it with your own stories. That's just stupid and doesn't add anything to the discussion.

Not to pick on you in general, but this paragraph stands out as to why these "dialogues" (to appropriate a term favored by the identitarian academics) are quite one sided.

A certain set of anecdata can be used to establish the pervasiveness of sexism in, but a different set of anecdata can't be used to counter it? Bear in mind, both have the same level of credibility to an impartial observer, which is to say not a whole lot. And a discussion in which one cannot question what it's premised upon is not a real discussion in any meaningful sense—it's more a sermon, more of a...struggle-session.

No surprise, as with any discussion of "social justice", this thread has gone down an all too predictable path. The integrity of anyone skeptical of this piece (or the worldview of "social justice" proponents in general) is called into question; simply having a differing viewpoint or expressing reasonable skepticism might mark one as a bigot who doesn't know that "IT'S 2016!".

It's no way to have an open, genuine, and honest conversation. But i suspect that most of the folks here are far more interested in virtue-signaling than reasoned discourse.


Also, as much as I dislike her usage of "White Male Terrorist," a big part of me thinks we wouldn't be discussing her article at all if she hadn't used it. Do the ends justify the means? I'm not sure. But I'm glad we're talking about it.


This kind of crap is why we can't have a reasonable discussion. Guys are getting into meta-arguments about womens' right to complain about shitty treatment by male dominated communities, as if there's some permission required to use specific language for literary effect.

It's so predictable.

"We've started a discussion." "It was used for effect...don't take it so seriously."

Pray tell, do either of you afford the same leniency to your ideological opponents? Or do you take everything they say quite literally?

[Zilla]

My friend was called a Black rapist at a party. Should he sack up if he's offended at being labeled as a Black male?
No he shouldn't sack up, because frankly, being black in this country fucking sucks. I'm saying white males shouldn't be offended by being called White Males because on average they have literally the most advantageous position you can possibly have in this society. Reverse racism is a fucking myth.

[Megadeus]

I never said I was offended because of being a white male. I simply said that over generalizing a certain population by saying "white male terrorists" is hypocritical. It hurts the credibility of the author. And in media keeping objectivity is fairly important when it comes to trying to have a legitimate discussion on a topic.

[Zilla]

I never said I was offended because of being a white male. I simply said that over generalizing a certain population by saying "white male terrorists" is hypocritical. It hurts the credibility of the author. And in media keeping objectivity is fairly important when it comes to trying to have a legitimate discussion on a topic.
I didn't mean to say that you were offended. Only that some people clearly are, and they shouldn't be. Was her choice of labels annoying and harmful to her cause? Yeah, I think so. But my hope is that people can look past it to the meat of her article, because it's an important issue and we ought to be tackling it.

[jrsthethird]

The stories on that post are absolutely insane. Like someone said, r/thathappened levels of insane. But it got me curious, I want to read through the human rights case she won against her employer.

Anyone who's ever been in an auditorium when someone asks "if someone has been or knows someone who has been sexually assaulted, please stand up" and over half the crowd stands up, it's pretty fucking shocking. Also, follow some Instagram accounts that repost screen grabs from women on online dating (@byefelipe is a great one), and you'll see how shitty men can be to women.

There are things I've done that have made women feel uncomfortable, and while they were either dumb gags I did as a dumb teenager, or crossing boundaries of not-so-close friends. I like to say it was never with any malicious intent, but that's likely a byproduct of my own status as a white male, and also the fact that I am not that woman and I don't know what she's been through. An innocent joke on my part can trigger a horrible experience from her past, or just be another straw on the camel's back. Who knows when it will break? It's something I struggle with, and discussions like this make me second guess before I say or do something that may be offensive or uncomforting.


Like, I have walked into LGSes before where the play tables are covered in oversized gaming mats with women in compromising poses that can only be reached and held by someone who's done a shitload of yoga and is also double-jointed, while wearing maybe - maybe - a total of one square foot of fabric on their bodies, and that's just treated as perfectly normal decor. You'll have 250+ lb guys sit down with the anime girl pinup sleeves and no one bats an eye or says anything to them because they don't think it's any of their business or they don't want to hurt anyone's feelings or something. But that - all of that, collectively - sends a message about the community.

I'm not sure how I feel about this. On one hand, sexualizing women is a problem, and we see that reflected in other parts of the media. On the other hand, the topic of women's sexuality has been repressed for a while, and recently we have things like 50 Shades of Grey and Magic Mike which are pretty much men being sexualized for the amusement of women, as well as Vagina Monologues and similar works that promote women to embrace their own sexuality. It's a bit of a mess; I personally think its fine to have artistic versions of sexualized women (although I myself don't care for it), and I encourage women gamers to get some hunky man playmats and sleeves to match. But I don't blame people for thinking completely opposite of me.

Some of the art is even done by women, who have no problem feeding into it. This whole point harkens back to #shirtgate.


I saw this blog post on my Facebook feed before I saw it linked here. My good friend Jared posted this reply which I agree with:


I think the author intentionally chose this term because she knew it would be attention grabbing, and I think it's a bummer that much of the article's criticism will be due to that choice. It creates a convenient way for people to ignore the rest of the contents of her post, which I think are largely on point.

There was a reason I changed it to "Privilege" from "Terrorism"; the term is aggressive and off-putting. Dice's edit is better though.


I think it's very easy to believe that this kind of thing doesn't just doesn't exist or is getting terribly overblown when you don't see it happening in your own social circles or at your own LGS. It does though. I promise you it does. I've seen instances of it myself, and I've heard stories from women whom I trust and respect about it. It's a problem. If you're one of those guys that finds it detestable and are willing to do something about it when you see it, great. Thank you. You're fucking awesome, and we need more people like you.

One interesting thing that happened at my local SOI prerelease: The match next to me had a woman against a man, and they were chatting while playing the game. She made a joke that he was about to lose to a girl; it was clearly a joke, there was no malice or spite whatsoever. Maybe even flirting? This is completely tame compared to the abuse in the blog post, but it's still a comment that is made by clueless men in regards to women players and can make them feel uncomfortable. It's pretty undebatable that guys who say this sort of thing are dicks, and we need to step in and correct them for this line of thinking, but how do you respond to a woman who says it? Because men who hear that coming from a woman may think that it's an ok thing to say, but can you really tell a woman who isn't bothered by it that it's a harmful thing to say?

I mean, I have my circle of friends who, in closed quarters, use words like "***" and "nigga/er" and "cunt" and I don't bat an eye, but I would absolutely flip out at them if they did it in public. Except "cunt", which is strangely only offensive in the US.


Male nerds have by and large become the bullies and gatekeepers we claim to have despised in our childhoods. Most game shop crowds I've seen are very hostile in large and small ways to anyone who doesn't fit their idea of the stereotypical geek, and they mostly don't even realize it.

Ditto.


No he shouldn't sack up, because frankly, being black in this country fucking sucks. I'm saying white males shouldn't be offended by being called White Males because on average they have literally the most advantageous position you can possibly have in this society. Reverse racism is a fucking myth.

Ditto as well.

[Ace/Homebrew]

*sigh*

I will say, my favorite part of these threads is getting to learn who all the shitty people are.


Seriously though... We can't go 3 full pages discussing the struggles of women in our community without dudebros hijacking the thread to complain about the struggles white men face??

Create your own fucking thread to discuss how hard it is to hear women and SJWs lump you together with the bad guys that you've never seen and therefore don't exist!

[Megadeus]

I'd like to point out that literally no one in this thread has complained about the struggles that white men face. The only thing that was said is that the term "white male terrorist" was a complete overgeneralisation. Which was then construed by many to be "being a white male in this country sucks so much".

[Ace/Homebrew]

A certain set of anecdata can be used to establish the pervasiveness of sexism in, but a different set of anecdata can't be used to counter it? Bear in mind, both have the same level of credibility to an impartial observer, which is to say not a whole lot. And a discussion in which one cannot question what it's premised upon is not a real discussion in any meaningful sense—it's more a sermon, more of a...struggle-session.

No surprise, as with any discussion of "social justice", this thread has gone down an all too predictable path. The integrity of anyone skeptical of this piece (or the worldview of "social justice" proponents in general) is called into question; simply having a differing viewpoint or expressing reasonable skepticism might mark one as a bigot who doesn't know that "IT'S 2016!".

It's no way to have an open, genuine, and honest conversation. But i suspect that most of the folks here are far more interested in virtue-signaling than reasoned discourse.
I read this as "Wait a second... You get to use the stories women tell about their problems in the gaming community to show there is a problem, but I don't get to use my stories about there not being problems in my gaming community to counter that? That's not fair!!"

This thread isn't about discussing whether or not there is a problem. It's about discussing the problem.

[[SLAYER]chaos]

This thread isn't about discussing whether or not there is a problem. It's about discussing the problem.

Then why are you just attacking people and not talking about the issue?

[Ace/Homebrew]

chaos;942934']Then why are you just attacking people and not talking about the issue?

Fair enough.


It's more of a "shitty introverts with no social skills whatsoever" problem.

Looks like this is a sliding scale and I'm on it.

[cdr]

I'd like to point out that literally no one in this thread has complained about the struggles that white men face. The only thing that was said is that the term "white male terrorist" was a complete overgeneralisation. Which was then construed by many to be "being a white male in this country sucks so much".

It's a red herring though. I can't help but see that fact that so many posters are focusing on the title as an attempt to avoid acknowledging the meat of the piece. Interpreting the objection as being oversensitive is being generous to these posters.

[Ace/Homebrew]

For those who agree their local store should be a place they can take their daughter if she expresses an interest in the game:


chaos;942888']As much as everyone says "not at my LGS" there's almost ALWAYS at least a small group of guys that are gigantic assholes.

What is an appropriate way to handle groups like this? They continue to exist because they are allowed to exist when we ignore them.

I'm fortunate that both stores I play regularly in are filled with inclusive and open-minded people. I cannot remember the last time I heard anyone say *** or gay even if they 'don't mean gay gay'. But I'm only at these stores every other week for a pretty routine set of hours. A group of assholes being ignored might exist there outside my sphere of knowledge.

If there was a group like that in my store being ignored, I'd act in some manner to keep the space comfortable for my daughter and me. Whatever was appropriate for the situation (notifying the owner/manager if the group was being obnoxious or saying something to the person in charge if they saw but were ignoring it). Otherwise I'd notify the owner why I'm not returning on my way out the door.

I do not have a daughter, and I honestly can't remember the last time I saw such a group at my local stores. But at this point in my life I would not ignore that group in my store.

I'm less likely to say anything to judges at large events (unless it's physical violence or involving a child) because I don't have a sense of community there. But that's me now. That might change in the 10+ years before it's possible for me to show up to a GP with my daughter. I'm hopeful that the gaming community won't put me in that position by that time.

[cdr]

I'm less likely to say anything to judges at large events (unless it's physical violence or involving a child) because I don't have a sense of community there. But that's me now. That might change in the 10+ years before it's possible for me to show up to a GP with my daughter. I'm hopeful that the gaming community won't put me in that position by that time.

Higher level judges have zero tolerance for even minor bigotry. If you're at an event big enough to have an experienced judge (GPs and SCGs most certainly in this category) and you see/hear something out of line, absolutely report it to a judge. It will get taken care of. If you happen to catch an inexperienced judge who brushes you off, go up the chain of command. Antisocial behavior is literally against the rules - Unsporting Conduct.

And you're right, by far the best tool we have for getting rid of complacent exclusionary behavior and worse is social pressure. It's on us the bystanders, not the targets, to let our social groups know that the way they're treating women (and other minorities) is not acceptable and it has to change. If the people in these groups don't want to hear it, they need to be excluded from the group if possible or we need to remove ourselves and form better groups.

[Jamaican Zombie Legend]

I read this as "Wait a second... You get to use the stories women tell about their problems in the gaming community to show there is a problem, but I don't get to use my stories about there not being problems in my gaming community to counter that? That's not fair!!"

Set phasers to snark!


This thread isn't about discussing whether or not there is a problem. It's about discussing the problem.

And this sort of epistemic closure is exactly what makes "discussions" with committed ideologues, such as yourself, unpleasant and mostly fruitless. There's no room for heterodox though. "Get on board or get out!", barks the commissar.

[Quasim0ff]

I've only read the first two pages of comments so far, and a thought have kept crossing my mind:

You all (and myself included, I'm no saint.) need to realise these things are her experience. As an outside, white male person, your actions might seem acceptable and tolerant. For her, they might be way over the line. Does that mean you did anything bad towards her? No. But that's not really the point. As beings, we have to acknowledge and accept that our understanding of the situation and our definition of where the line goes is actually, quite frankly, utterly useless.

If we want people to feel welcomed, we have to do so on their premises. Only after we've actually engaged with them, and they feel safe, we can start having a larger discussion about how they felt and what made them feel that way. Calling them out on being highly sensitive (seriously; Whoever thinks this need to get nutkicked. This is the most condescending shit ever!) doesn't do anything productive. We need for them to feel as equals before we can actually begin to change anything; Everything else is futile and will leave to the same stuff happening to the next and the next and the next person. This is equal for all persons; White, Black, Asian, Gay, Trans, Non-gender, female, male, skinny, fat. There's a reason most LGS consist of (mostly) white males. It's not because magic is uniquely attractive to white males.


*Overall considerations:
I live in Denmark. We have recently (over the last year) started to have a discussion about woman equality. This discussion stems from a younger female, who was a victim of "revenge porn". She had her naked pictures posted online, without her consent. This opened up for an documentary where she basically tries to reclaim possession of her body. This might seem overly.... harsh? to some. I don't know. I thought so at first. Then I got sad, about thinking so myself.

There have been studies showing that about 80% of women feeling their boundaries have been crossed and that they feel sexualized, and that it made them feel uncomfortable. This also included getting their asses touched when they were out drinking beer with their friends, walking down the street and being whistled at etc.

Back on track; What the women in OPs post suggest about rape, and reporting them, actually happens. In Denmark, in 2010 (which was the latest study I could find), there were 420 rapes reported. If we look at the overall status of rape reports actually amounting to conviction, there's about 25% of these reports that lead to conviction. That doesn't sound to bad; The sad thing is, however, that it's only 20% of rapes that are actually reported, claims several studies. About 2000 rapes in 2010, and about 100 of these rapes led to conviction. It has been said that, in order to have the best chance of actually being taken serious is to hope, that you have to give your statement to a female officer, otherwise there's a large chance that the male officer will ask the same stuff the women in OPs post talk about; Where you drunk? Are you trying to get back at him, for something he did?.

I don't, for one second, question that you all, as well as me, feel our LGS is excellent for inclusion and accepting new player - Whatever their appearances might be. We are, after all, middle-aged (early/mid) twenties and upwards, I'd assume and not retarded. But disregarding their experience because we can't recognise it. That makes no good.

Sorry for my comment going in two directions. I feel like this is a pretty challenging subject to talk about; I can't recognise the feeling and situations happening towards the "minorities". I can, however, remember when I was 14 and played with females online. I had no idea how to address them, and as such, sexual comments did flow in our group. We didn't know any better, but we didn't get called out, and that's the same problem as here.



... by far the best tool we have for getting rid of complacent exclusionary behavior and worse is social pressure. It's on us the bystanders, not the targets, to let our social groups know that the way they're treating women (and other minorities) is not acceptable and it has to change. If the people in these groups don't want to hear it, they need to be excluded from the group if possible or we need to remove ourselves and form better groups.

I cannot agree more.

[cdr]

"Get on board or get out!"

Please do, yes.


You all (and myself included, I'm no saint.) need to realise these things are her experience. As an outside, white male person, your actions might seem acceptable and tolerant. For her, they might be way over the line. Does that mean you did anything bad towards her? No. But that's not really the point. As beings, we have to acknowledge and accept that our understanding of the situation and our definition of where the line goes is actually, quite frankly, utterly useless.

To put it in another way: bullies almost never actually think they're being bullies. It's incredibly difficult to comprehend how something you do might affect someone with very different experiences than you, and we are always the good guys in our own stories. That kid in 6th grade that threw me in the dirt every week? Thought he was just "joking around". I mean I found out years later that I had bullied a kid in middle school - I never even thought about him, don't remember a thing, but he was terrified of me. Complaining about losing to a girl may seem like a tried and true joke to you, but try listening to a few women about how they feel about hearing that kind of thing incessantly.

[Dice_Box]

Are you going to say that there is no issue here to discuss? Are you going to tell me that a SCG post by Jim Davis was pulled down for no reason and an apology given because everything is fine?

There is no "ideologues" in stating that there is an issues. That's not a side to take, it's a comment that can be backed up and proven. It's not "Get on board or get out!" more like "There is a real point to be made here, would you please be a productive member of this thread?".



Please do, yes.
So elegant, so graceful. I love it.

[Echelon]

I mostly run into this when gaming with my wife. We're big fans of (J)RPGs, but for some reason female characters are often so oversexualized when there's really no need to. The same goes for anime. Screw fanservice. It's just not OK.

Seriously, when I'm sending my characters into battle I want them to be heavily armored and not just wearing nipple clamps. Or, if they must be wearing nipple clamps for some stupid reason it better be both the men and the women dressed as such, not just the women.

I'm a big fan of treating people the way you would want others to treat you (and I for one don't like getting my ass grabbed by strangers), treating others respectfully and treating everyone equally, regardless of gender, race etc. I like to think that when I see something as descriped in the OP happening I'd step in and point out that what the person (to be clear: the miscreant doing the groping/commenting/whatever-the-fuck) is doing is not OK nor ever to be repeated.

[Jamaican Zombie Legend]

Are you going to say that there is no issue here to discuss?

There are issues, discussions could be had, but this forum's, *ahem*, empowered userbase seem completely uninterested in anything besides a self-congratulatory circlejerk about how they are totally not like those other nerds by showcasing their Women's Studies and Postscolonial Theory 101 bonafides.


Are you going to tell me that a SCG post by Jim Davis was pulled down for no reason and an apology given because everything is fine?

I don't know enough about that situation to fully comment, but an article on a website dedicated to selling children's trading cards is hardly some major social flashpoint. People go on internet slacktivist witchhunts all the time and risk-averse corporations are all too eager to kowtow.


There is no "ideologues" in stating that there is an issues.

No, stating is insufficient to mark one as an ideologue, but the way in which a lot of users are carrying themselves lend credence to the notion that, yep, they're pretty rigid thinkers for whom thinking outside their political/cultural lines is a bit too challenging.


That's not a side to take, it's a comment that can be backed up and proven.

Proven with what? Stories or should I say "lived experiences"? Sorry if I'm a little wary of giving a blank check for all sorts of social based on such...indelible provenance.


It's not "Get on board or get out!" more like "There is a real point to be made here, would you please be a productive member of this thread?".

And what sort of things are we producing here? Smug self-satisfaction for a bunch of folks plagued by a strange sense of status anxiety; rich enough to shuffle around pieces of cardboard that, sold, would represent a life-changing sum for the economically downtrodden. If you buy enough social justice indulgences, you too can be cleansed of sin!

Look, I'll level with you: I do think women have it pretty shitty in Magic, but I don't find the "white male kyriarchy" (or whatever) to be the most salient nor most prominent reason. The player population is mostly made up of young, lower-class men with little-to-no proper moral upbringing. Many don't know how to treat anyone all too well—something as simple as the Golden Rule didn't exactly stick in their minds.

My sympathies go out to those who suffer these sorts of indignities and I'm interested in eliminating these occurrences altogether, though I strongly disagree that struggle sessions about sexism are the way to do so.

In fact, I'm not at all sanguine about our ability to really do much of anything about the problem besides conducting ourselves in the best manner possible and working to create respectful, decent, upstanding communities. Social justice types love to sell the notion that transformative social change is only a few clicks, speaking fees, book sales, and Patreon donations away...as hucksters are wont to do. I mean, how much more operating ability do we really gain by viewing the problem as one of white, male sexism than poor manners? None.

[Ace/Homebrew]

Look, I'll level with you: I do think women have it pretty shitty in Magic, but I don't find the "white male kyriarchy" (or whatever) to be the most salient nor most prominent reason. The player population is mostly made up of young, lower-class men with little-to-no proper moral upbringing. Many don't know how to treat anyone all too well—something as simple as the Golden Rule didn't exactly stick in their minds.

My sympathies go out to those who suffer these sorts of indignities and I'm interested in eliminating these occurrences altogether, though I strongly disagree that struggle sessions about sexism are the way to do so.

In fact, I'm not at all sanguine about our ability to really do much of anything about the problem besides conducting ourselves in the best manner possible and working to create respectful, decent, upstanding communities.
Wow! You actually did have something real and related to contribute. Who knew you had it in you? Too bad it was covered on both sides by bullshit.

[cdr]

Aww, someone just got his first thesaurus.

[phonics]

I mostly run into this when gaming with my wife. We're big fans of (J)RPGs, but for some reason female characters are often so oversexualized when there's really no need to. The same goes for anime. Screw fanservice. It's just not OK.

Seriously, when I'm sending my characters into battle I want them to be heavily armored and not just wearing nipple clamps. Or, if they must be wearing nipple clamps for some stupid reason it better be both the men and the women dressed as such, not just the women.

I'm a big fan of treating people the way you would want others to treat you (and I for one don't like getting my ass grabbed by strangers), treating others respectfully and treating everyone equally, regardless of gender, race etc. I like to think that when I see something as descriped in the OP happening I'd step in and point out that what the person (to be clear: the miscreant doing the groping/commenting/whatever-the-fuck) is doing is not OK nor ever to be repeated.

And yet you purchase these games and play them. You have the choice to play whatever you want, to support whatever studios you want. If you don't want fanservice in your games, then don't play games with fanservice in them.

People may call it victim blaming but if you choose to spend time around shitty people, then don't be surprised when shitty things happen to you. It is up to you to find a group of people that you want to spend time with, no one is obligated to make you feel welcome. There are social constructs in place that govern this. People are reprimanded for inappropriate behavior, so if people willingly let someone make you feel disrespected, they don't feel it is inappropriate. If this is at odds with your beliefs, then its pretty obvious that you should not be associated with these people.

In the same vein, instead of just being offended, people need to actually thing about why they are offended. We live in an age of extreme sensitivity and political correctness. Sticks and stones used to mean something, because you are the only one that chooses what offends you and what doesn't. People also need to realize that what offends you is separate from what is considered inappropriate. You determine what offends you, your peers determine what is inappropriate. It is up to you to find peers that align with your beliefs because people are not obligated to do that.

[Echelon]

And yet you purchase these games and play them. You have the choice to play whatever you want, to support whatever studios you want. If you don't want fanservice in your games, then don't play games with fanservice in them.

Actually, I either not purchase those or return them when I find out.


People may call it victim blaming but if you choose to spend time around shitty people, then don't be surprised when shitty things happen to you. It is up to you to find a group of people that you want to spend time with, no one is obligated to make you feel welcome. There are social constructs in place that govern this. People are reprimanded for inappropriate behavior, so if people willingly let someone make you feel disrespected, they don't feel it is inappropriate. If this is at odds with your beliefs, then its pretty obvious that you should not be associated with these people.

In the same vein, instead of just being offended, people need to actually thing about why they are offended. We live in an age of extreme sensitivity and political correctness. Sticks and stones used to mean something, because you are the only one that chooses what offends you and what doesn't. People also need to realize that what offends you is separate from what is considered inappropriate. You determine what offends you, your peers determine what is inappropriate. It is up to you to find peers that align with your beliefs because people are not obligated to do that.

What you're saying is that it's OK for people to be shitty and the burden is on you to avoid them..? Also, women should think about why they're offended when a stranger grabs their ass..?

I have no words for this.

[UseLess]

I'm quite curious about this discussion from a community point of view. I've read the comments in this topic and the original post on the blog. I was actually triggered to post because of our Jamaican Zombie Legend, however unpopular his posts may be. What I see from this thread is that the argument "it doesn't happen where I play" should not matter, as it is the point that it does happen and this should be discussed. I find this an interesting notion, which I will elaborate on in this post. Just to make clear, I'm appalled by the actions described in the blogpost, true or not. I think Richard Cheese indeed gave the best conclusion: disgusting either way.

What I would like to ask is what is the point of this discussion? This question is not an 'attack' to any stance or person, but asked out of genuine interest. I doubt anyone is here to discuss if the behavior described in the blogpost is acceptable or not, I'm pretty sure there is a concensus among people that it is not. The people that gave a critical reply to the blogpost, in whatever way, were called out or requested to leave the discussion. If only people of the same mindset are left in this topic, than what is there really to discuss? If the point of the original post is to raise awareness on this issue, a sticky would maybe have sufficed after it was closed. If it is believed that awareness is better raised in an open topic, as suggested by Zilla's sensible post, this is of course a suitable medium. However, many posts do not actually discuss the content and issues in the blogpost but rather side tracked topics such as terminology used in the article. I'd like to suggest that once this topic has died out, the openings post is stickied together with some of the more sensible, on-topic posts like the one from Zilla. Like this, the issue will remain visible on this forum to raise awareness, without any derailed discussions to distract from the main points.

The other point that I want to make is that I think "it doesn't happen where I play" is actually a very important point in this discussion. To give some background, I play in the same shops as Quasimoff, although only for 2 years, and there are no women playing legacy here. The scene is dominated by white males, as can be expected based on its demographics. As I write this, I actually cannot think of any other ethnicities (maybe some Asian roots?) that join the two weekly legacy tournaments in our city. I'm unaware and uninterested of the sexuality of the members in our community. I don't give a crap about whether my opponent is straight, gay, bi, into trees, or whatever. I join the tournaments to play legacy magic against real opponents for the sake of competition and fun, because that is my hobby. According to Zilla's categorization, I would call myself a person that has not experienced the issues mentioned in the blogpost, would find them bad, but don't think about it or realize it is an issue. When I read the blogpost and some of the comments in this topic afterwards, I had to confess to myself that I have difficulties imagining these things happening. That is exactly because I do not see them. There are no women where I play so "it doesn't happen where I play". I do not know if these things happen, to what degree they happen, whether the things I read are true or not, etc. With the situation I am in, I CANNOT know this. Unless provided with actual facts and evidence it is very hard to me, as a white male with no experience, make a sensible opinion about this topic.

To dismiss the comment "it doesn't happen where I play" as irrelevent because you know/have experienced it where you play is therefore too hasty in my opinion. I think it is very hard for people that do not experience these kind of things to properly participate in discussions like this, as most opinions will be uninformed and cause the discussion quickly to derail. I'm not saying that "it doesn't happen here" can be used as an argument to say it doesn't happen. But for those of us who have no experience with it, maybe we can be provided with means to recognize things, what to watch out for, etc., if the purpose of this thread is indeed to raise awareness, rather than being told it doesn't matter if we have experienced it and we should just discuss. Even though his argument may be "covered on both sides by bullshit", I still think that the question Jamaican Zombie Legend raises is very relevant to answer:

What is it that one as an individual can do, especially those that do not experience it, apart from behaving our best?

[Echelon]

What is it that one as an individual can do, especially those that do not experience it, apart from behaving our best?

One can confront others with their behavior when you do see it happening, make them aware that what they do is not OK. Pay attention to the little things. When you see a co-worker staring at another co-workers' ass, tell that co-worker the other isn't a piece of meat nor should be viewed as such.

Neglecting to do so is almost as bad as displaying the behavior yourself.

[UseLess]

So in my case I do nothing? If I see something happen I could do something, but as I said, nothing happens here as far as I know. Thus in that case, the argument "it doesn't happen here" might as well be equal to "it doesn't happen" on a personal level because there is nothing to do about it. I think it is a good thing to raise awareness about this issue, but for those not experiencing it, there seems to be little that can be done or discussed.

[Echelon]

So in my case I do nothing? If I see something happen I could do something, but as I said, nothing happens here as far as I know. Thus in that case, the argument "it doesn't happen here" might as well be equal to "it doesn't happen" on a personal level because there is nothing to do about it. I think it is a good thing to raise awareness about this issue, but for those not experiencing it, there seems to be little that can be done or discussed.

Maybe not as much as you might want to. It's hard to pet a cat you don't have.

It might be happening around you though. You might just not see it b/c you don't expect it to happen or can't imagine anyone would do it, but that's something I can't judge.

[Megadeus]

Actually, I either not purchase those or return them when I find out.



What you're saying is that it's OK for people to be shitty and the burden is on you to avoid them..? Also, women should think about why they're offended when a stranger grabs their ass..?

I have no words for this.

I never understood this line of thinking. In some social circles it is the norm to be "shitty" (in whatever sense you view as shitty), and you have a few choices. You can ignore them and let them continue to be isolated, you can join them and just try to ignore them, or you can do what many have chosen to do and yell at them from across the room about how they need to change their life to accommodate you. And I think history shows that human beings generally don't take well to the latter

[Echelon]

I never understood this line of thinking. In some social circles it is the norm to be "shitty" (in whatever sense you view as shitty), and you have a few choices. You can ignore them and let them continue to be isolated, you can join them and just try to ignore them, or you can do what many have chosen to do and yell at them from across the room about how they need to change their life to accommodate you. And I think history shows that human beings generally don't take well to the latter

I find that calmly asking a person why he or she does something or behaves a certain way works rather well. There's usually no need to yell. It's not as much about accomodating others (I mean, by ignoring or isolating them you basically are accomodating them) as it is about the way one should conduct him- or herself in public.

If the person being harassed is someone you know personally (and mayhaps care deeply for), do you shrug your shoulders and go "meh, it's what they do"? How very supportive of you.

[Havrekjex]

I find that calmly asking a person why he or she does something or behaves a certain way works rather well. There's usually no need to yell.Not only isn`t there a need for yelling, it can even be more effective to react calmly and orderly. If you start shouting at people and telling them off, they go defensive, shout back and prepare to try to win the argument. If you just ask them why they are behaving like that, or tell them in a calm, grown-up, non-condescending way that it`s nok ok, they tend to just shrink up, not know what to say and proceed to shut the fuck up. It`s hard, though, to remain calm when you see people bullying or acting like complete assholes. You instinctively want to punish and expose them, but making them stop and think about it is a lot more powerful.

One thing that happens, and this is something that I`m ashamed to say that I`ve experienced first-hand a few times times, is when you witness something that`s clearly unacceptable, and instead of reacting, you just kind of freeze up and start questioning what you just heard or saw. Thoughts like "maybe I misunderstood or heard him wrong" and "maybe they know each other well and that`s just their twisted sense of humor" start rushing through my head and I stare at the people in question and do absolutely nothing, and once I`ve come to the conclusion that I should indeed react and call out the unacceptable behaviour I just witnessed, the whole situation is over, and then I`m kicking myself for days for being so god damn slow and unsecure about my social antennas. I guess this is what is often interpreted as cowardice, but it`s really not necessarily that, it might as well be insecurity, something that we have in buckets in gaming communities. This is where the awareness thing becomes relevant. What I just described can happen once, or three times, but unless your moral compass is detuned or you actually are a coward, the more bullshit you witness and/or is on the lookout for, the more ready and able you will be to react, call the bullshit and do the right thing. If we are aware that bullying and unacceptable behaviour can very well be a problem in our gaming communities, not necessarily from personal experience but also from stories and reports such as in the OP, we come prepared to call it out instead of just standing there like an idiot. I`ve did that for the last time about a year ago before I turned the corner.

[Polishguy00]

I think the only thing that has been proven over the last 6-8 months is proof that there is a problem and the community has a long way to go.

There is so much to get to even after "we" can collectively agree to admit there are issues and the white male majority that exists in the community and the LGSs should do whatever they can to provide a better environment. Part of providing a better environment would be to continue the good things happening and to police the crap that could push away new members of the community. While that idea is inclusive to women, it also must be true for all types of people. The other part is active responses when the crap occurs. It's going to take a lot of people having honest discussions with themselves and others. It's absolutely true that there are many that derive some sort of self esteem from the game due to being an outcast growing up or for other reasons. In a way, I'm one of them. While I do not gain self-esteem from the game-- the game itself is pure enjoyment for me and I rarely salt over anything for more than a few seconds-- I am a passive person lacking in self-esteem due to an abusive childhood. So, being in tournaments and going to the LGSs from time to time are ways to keep myself socially active so I don't fall into a rut. While you may never know it talking to me, it's work to be confident enough to be around a group of people.

Because of that, I am much more likely to report an incident after the fact rather than confront issues as soon as they occur, or rather, after the damage may have already been done. Being passive, I tend to over-think things anyway and I worry about things that I say that are harmless in my mind. For instance, because I realize I'll never be a top-notch player (About .500 in brief "career" so far at GPs), I am pretty complimentary of opponents at the table. I will often joke around during a match and will commonly say "Well done." I can absolutely see how it is possible for a female opponent or any opponent to think I am patronizing them when I am not. Now, I hope my other actions prove otherwise, but I can see it being possible. The point is that seemingly harmless things can still have an impact. It also does no good to blame the person who gets offended.

I think the biggest point taken from the OP is that any one of those incidents should (have) be(en) addressed and punished, sometimes criminally. Sure, the language (terrorist) is a bit offensive, but I get why the OP would think it to be necessary if even one of those things happened to her. Sure, it seems more likely that the list of incidents is more likely to be reports from multiple people, but that still misses the point. There is an issue out there and it will be tough for a portion (I have no idea what the percentage is) of the community to come along for this, but the most important thing will be working together. That can be hard when success is usually measured by individual accomplishments. That alone can make for some weird environments.

Here's the best reason I can think of why it's never good to be a dick: Just like your opponent doesn't know what you have been through, you also don't know what they have been through. About half of the group of players I have gotten to know have used the game for escapism at one point or their lives or another. I am one of them. It's a lot different now, but only because of changes in my own environment.

I think it is great that the last 6-8 months have gotten things more out in the open, but like Happy Gilmore said, "we've only just begun."

[maharis]

I think identifying problem individuals isn't quite as simple as it sounds. In the Leaving a Legacy podcast I linked, the woman relates an incredibly inappropriate comment made to her after a game. He whispers into her ear: "I'd like to see those lips around my dick," knowing that she was relatively new and isolated, and that no one else would hear it. She talks about being nervous and scared, not even knowing she could report it, nor really wanting to because of the embarrassment factor.

That's the thing that has to be made clear... the kind of people who would actually be abusive/inappropriate in this way aren't going to just do it right in front of the entire store. They are going to pick their spots and rely on the intimidating and isolating factor of the overwhelmingly male space to protect them from restitution. And it doesn't have to be the same person as anime sleeve/playmat guy. People who do things like that, and some of the stuff related in the OP, hide in plain sight.

When OP uses the term "white male terrorism," this is what she means -- leveraging the isolation and awkwardness of being a woman in a male space to intimidate and harass. That person is counting on the victim being scared and the structure around the group being skeptical. Put another way, you don't think Aggro_Zombies' friend was feeling terrorized when she was being followed home, especially when the store owner barely flinched?

It's when women come out with these stories that we as a community are truly tested. No one is saying "You have to take everything a woman says at face value." But you need to be empathetic to the possibility that they are telling the truth, and treat a serious allegation with the seriousness it deserves. Not immediately say "oh that sounds like BS/cops would never do that/HR would never do that" like happened ITT. It's certainly not easy or comfortable, nor as satisfying, as telling anime alter guy to buy something that makes him look like an adult human. But it is perhaps more important.

You don't have to go string the guy up immediately. You investigate (or the proper authorities do, whether judges, store owners, or police if it is at that level), and a false allegation -- which happens WAY less than unreported actual assaults, by the way -- will crumble.

[iatee]

On the 'male space' thing - my gf hates stepping foot in any of the stores I play at. I found it surprising at first - Maharis, you and I both know that the NYC Magic scene is filled w/ decent people, mostly innocuous nerds / normal white collar office workers. She even knows a lot of my friends and has people there she can talk to. But being the only girl in a room filled with 40 guys is just a weird experience. Being the only guy in a room of 40 girls is also generally pretty strange and in those situations you don't even have to worry about being harassed etc.

Her sister plays magic with her husband - is quite good and enjoys it, they power cube at home. But she's had repeated unpleasant experiences when she goes w/ him to their local stores, either people straight-up hitting on her, making weird comments, getting mad when they lose, etc.

[Richard Cheese]

I think identifying problem individuals isn't quite as simple as it sounds. In the Leaving a Legacy podcast I linked, the woman relates an incredibly inappropriate comment made to her after a game. He whispers into her ear: "I'd like to see those lips around my dick," knowing that she was relatively new and isolated, and that no one else would hear it. She talks about being nervous and scared, not even knowing she could report it, nor really wanting to because of the embarrassment factor.

Is this...is this a real thing that actually happens? Where the fuck do these guys come from? I've met a bunch of awkward nerds with bad hygiene playing Magic, but most of them were too introverted to even make eye contact with a female, much less just drop some red pill shit like that on one in a public place. If these people/stories are real, it's time for the rest of the community to start ostracizing them. Store owners don't have to tolerate it, other players don't have to tolerate it, and friends don't have to tolerate it.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gqH_0LPVoho
I feel like this is as relevant today as it ever was. Just replace 'racist' with the superiority complex of your choosing.

[barcode]

Is this...is this a real thing that actually happens?

Yes. This happens.

I've had male players make all kinds of inappropriate comments ranging from "i'm socially awkward" to "gets entered into the tournament to be DQ'd for USC-Major."

[CutthroatCasual]

The same goes for anime. Screw fanservice. It's just not OK.

These are not one in the same, and I would appreciate that you stopped treating them as such (as you have been doing in your posts.)

[maharis]

Is this...is this a real thing that actually happens? Where the fuck do these guys come from? I've met a bunch of awkward nerds with bad hygiene playing Magic, but most of them were too introverted to even make eye contact with a female, much less just drop some red pill shit like that on one in a public place. If these people/stories are real, it's time for the rest of the community to start ostracizing them. Store owners don't have to tolerate it, other players don't have to tolerate it, and friends don't have to tolerate it.

That's the thing though. Are you willing to believe her?

It's in the first 10 minutes of the cast that she tells the story. You want to reach into the phone and be like "please, go tell the store owner!" Then you imagine the store owner confronting the guy and him getting all shifty and trying to lie but everyone knows he's lying and then he gets run out of town and his cards distributed among the rest of the attendees.

But it never gets there, because she's nervous and embarrassed and isolated. Which I think is completely plausible. This kind of stuff happens in professional settings; my wife has dealt with it before. I know we like to joke about how awkward MTG players are and it's almost absurd that someone could be that bold. But that's certainly not a rule.


On the 'male space' thing - my gf hates stepping foot in any of the stores I play at. I found it surprising at first - Maharis, you and I both know that the NYC Magic scene is filled w/ decent people, mostly innocuous nerds / normal white collar office workers. She even knows a lot of my friends and has people there she can talk to. But being the only girl in a room filled with 40 guys is just a weird experience. Being the only guy in a room of 40 girls is also generally pretty strange and in those situations you don't even have to worry about being harassed etc.

Her sister plays magic with her husband - is quite good and enjoys it, they power cube at home. But she's had repeated unpleasant experiences when she goes w/ him to their local stores, either people straight-up hitting on her, making weird comments, getting mad when they lose, etc.

NYC does have more women behind the counter, so if something does happen, it's probably easier to report. We're also self-regulating, like you said. But even that isn't moving the needle too much. There's only one woman regular at our legacy nights, and she is married to one of the male regulars. Not sure about other formats, but can't imagine too many more.

My wife never wants to come into the store either if I need to run in for sleeves or something. So we've got that level of off-puttingness (?) coupled with the actual problem of predatory actors. The first can be solved by gamers acting less like third-graders around girls, and I do think that's changed a lot in the past 20 years. The second, we just have to treat as real.

[Ace/Homebrew]

What I would like to ask is what is the point of this discussion?



Is this...is this a real thing that actually happens?Yes. This happens.

If for nothing else, this discussion is about raising awareness for those who care but don't realize it's a thing.
Our opinions are limited by our experiences. Hearing about the experience of others expands your pool of knowledge with which to make those opinions.

[cdr]

What is it that one as an individual can do, especially those that do not experience it, apart from behaving our best?

First, realize that you "don't experience it" because you aren't paying attention. If there's zero women at your game shop, why do you think that is? If a woman who's never been that before drops in for a FNM, what's her experience like?

Second, realize that you're disbelieving women who share their experiences because of selfish self-interest. Your response should not be "well, it's all anecdotal so I have no reason to believe her", your response should be to believe her because you have no reason not to believe her. You only disbelieve because that's what makes you more comfortable.

[CutthroatCasual]

First, realize that you "don't experience it" because you aren't paying attention. If there's zero women at your game shop, why do you think that is? If a woman who's never been that before drops in for a FNM, what's her experience like?

Perhaps because there are no women players in my area?


Second, realize that you're disbelieving women who share their experiences because of selfish self-interest. Your response should not be "well, it's all anecdotal so I have no reason to believe her", your response should be to believe her because you have no reason not to believe her. You only disbelieve because that's what makes you more comfortable.

What if that woman is a pathological liar and will use her gender to garner pity when she writes slander?

You're telling us to act in absolutes. That's impossible.

[Ace/Homebrew]

What if that woman is a pathological liar and will use her gender to garner pity when she writes slander?
Do you assume everyone you speak with is a pathological liar? If so that is a lousy way to live and I feel sorry for the life experiences you've faced which resulted in that outlook. Truly.

Why do you immediately argue the exception when the rule suggests she's telling the truth?

[cdr]

What if that woman is a pathological liar and will use her gender to garner pity when she writes slander?

You're telling us to act in absolutes. That's impossible.

I'm telling you to think long and hard about why your first instinct is to call a woman who shares her experiences "a pathological liar who will use her gender to garner pity when she writes slander". This type of skepticism among nerds is oddly selective.

[phonics]

Actually, I either not purchase those or return them when I find out.


Then I don't see where the problem is. People have different opinions as to what is OK and what isn't.



What you're saying is that it's OK for people to be shitty and the burden is on you to avoid them..? Also, women should think about why they're offended when a stranger grabs their ass..?

I have no words for this.

No need to put words in my mouth. I thought it was fairly obvious that groping and molestation is considered threatening behavior by everyone here and what I said only applies to things like quips that some people may feel offended by. I don't think you understand the discussion, whether or not it is okay for people to be shitty is completely irrelevant. I am talking about reality, it is just a fact of life that there are shitty people and it is up to you to do whatever you want with that information. What are you going to do about it? Are you going to go around to every game store that has shitty people and lecture them about respecting others and how their behavior is wrong? Go ahead and be my guest, but we all know that will be a waste of time. It is obvious that this behavior happens in places where no one cares to reprimand them socially so how are you going to force them to be nice?

For the record I have never seen any of this sort of behavior ever in all the time that I have played the game, in different shops with different demographics, even when big pre releases were a thing. Women at the stores are not unusual nor uncommon either, and people treat each other with respect and everyone has been welcomed, regardless of gender, race, age or any sort of identifier. At the same time we don't walk around eggshells with minorities, it is just as disrespectful to be patronizing and treat people like fragile things that will fall apart the second we do something 'wrong'. We can sit here and circle jerk about how nice it would be if there were no prejudices in the world, but we live in a reality where this isn't the case. There are shitty people, they spend their time with other shitty people who are fine with it, don't spend your time with them.

[Dice_Box]

Perhaps because there are no women players in my area?

Statistically unlikely. The time you are most likely to see women come out to play is prerelease. Most other times they stay away.

[Stuart]

We can sit here and circle jerk about how nice it would be if there were no prejudices in the world, but we live in a reality where this isn't the case.

The thing is, if these "circle jerks" happen regularly enough, they can and do change real world attitudes. The shift in public opinion towards gay people over the last decade would be an obvious example. I'm willing to bet that young people now are the least homophobic generation because growing up, they were regularly exposed to the idea that being gay is OK.


There are shitty people, they spend their time with other shitty people who are fine with it, don't spend your time with them.

The moral burden isn't on the oppressed group to figure out a way to live in a hostile world; it's on the dominant group to change their attitudes/actions.

[Zilla]

There are issues, discussions could be had, but this forum's, *ahem*, empowered userbase seem completely uninterested in anything besides a self-congratulatory circlejerk about how they are totally not like those other nerds by showcasing their Women's Studies and Postscolonial Theory 101 bonafides.
I can't speak for everyone else, but political correctness and posturing aren't motivators for me at all in this discussion. I find those things utterly tiresome. There's a different reason this discussion is important, and you mentioned it here:


The player population is mostly made up of young, lower-class men with little-to-no proper moral upbringing. Many don't know how to treat anyone all too well—something as simple as the Golden Rule didn't exactly stick in their minds.
Yes. Exactly right. That's not where the conversation ends though. You don't have to throw up your hands and go "these guys are just shitty and that's that forever." Moral education doesn't end with parents, dude. It's certainly a great place to start, but it continues throughout one's life via friends and social circles.

If you know that women and minorities should be treated like human fucking beings, and you see your friends doing the opposite of that because they lack proper moral upbringing, fucking educate them. If you get nothing else out of this conversation, it should be that. This isn't some white knighting social justice self back-patting circle jerk. It's just a simple reminder that you have the power to influence others by leading by example and being a decent person.

[Zilla]

The webmaster of SCG.com just wrote a blog post about the article we've been discussing. Worth a read, imo.

http://www.theferrett.com/ferrettworks/2016/04/why-should-we-listen-to-anecdotal-evidence-of-harassment-in-gaming/?utm_source=feedly&utm_medium=rss&utm_campaign=why-should-we-listen-to-anecdotal-evidence-of-harassment-in-gaming

[Dice_Box]

The comments are worth a read too. The one from Alexis is fairly spot on.

My wife comes into the store a lot, she plays Secret Hitler with us after magic is over and we all have a great time. To my knowledge no one has made her uncomfortable, no one has made her feel uneasy. I think though this is for two reasons.

One, the group I play with is a group I pick, there are a few people I would rather she ovoid.

Two, the store is run by a woman. Try pushing something sexist past her and not get banned from the store.

Now this might not be the exception, this might be the rule. Most stores might be like this. Maybe no one around you gets harassed. But the moment that the lights are out, anonymity becomes a thing be it by acceptance in a store, masses of people at a convention or the joy that is the internet, shit happens. We see it, we know it's there. It's not hard to find someone tweeting at a woman saying "Your not a real gamer" up to "I will find you, rape you and dump your body in a well".

While most are trolls unwilling to act on such threats, hiding the the shade of acceptance or the facelessness of a computer screen, that doesn't help the mental state of the target. Also, while harassment and abuse can happen to anyone, it is something that overwhelmingly is directed at women more than men.

[Esper3k]

I haven't read the Ferrett's writings in awhile but I've always found him to be pretty insightful, especially on social issues like this.

[Echelon]

These are not one in the same, and I would appreciate that you stopped treating them as such (as you have been doing in your posts.)

So portraying women as raunchy lust objects is perfectly fine and doesn't send out a wrong message at all..? Right...


Then I don't see where the problem is. People have different opinions as to what is OK and what isn't.


Yeah, that's the problem. People do have different opinions as to what is OK and said material helps form (or rather deform) that opinion. The guy stalking the woman probably thought it was perfectly normal to do so too.


No need to put words in my mouth. I thought it was fairly obvious that groping and molestation is considered threatening behavior by everyone here and what I said only applies to things like quips that some people may feel offended by. I don't think you understand the discussion, whether or not it is okay for people to be shitty is completely irrelevant. I am talking about reality, it is just a fact of life that there are shitty people and it is up to you to do whatever you want with that information. What are you going to do about it? Are you going to go around to every game store that has shitty people and lecture them about respecting others and how their behavior is wrong? Go ahead and be my guest, but we all know that will be a waste of time.

I'm not putting words in your mouth. I'm telling you what I read. Your solution for reality is to not do a thing and just ignore it..? Very helpful.


Her sister plays magic with her husband - is quite good and enjoys it, they power cube at home. But she's had repeated unpleasant experiences when she goes w/ him to their local stores, either people straight-up hitting on her, making weird comments, getting mad when they lose, etc.

It happened to my wife too when she first came along to the LGS. I was standing at the counter, talking to the guy behind it and she was just browsing in the store, looking at boardgames. After roughly 10 seconds I heard someone say "Hey, you come here often?". She replied "No, not really. I'm here b/c my boyfriend (we weren't married at the time) has some trading to do". He then continued to badger her until he found out she can be the living embodiment of the honey badger when messed with. She may stand only 1.52 meters tall, but verbally she's capable of destroying cities.

When we left the shop the first thing she said was that she never wanted to set foot in there again and I couldn't blame her.

[Jamaican Zombie Legend]

I can't speak for everyone else, but political correctness and posturing aren't motivators for me at all in this discussion. I find those things utterly tiresome.

Fair enough. Maybe I'm painting with too broad of brushstrokes and letting my irritation at an obnoxious minority get in the way of things—maybe I'm . That said, it's abundantly clear that many of the users in this thread are motivated by such things.


Yes. Exactly right. That's not where the conversation ends though. You don't have to throw up your hands and go "these guys are just shitty and that's that forever." Moral education doesn't end with parents, dude. It's certainly a great place to start, but it continues throughout one's life via friends and social circles.

Sure thing. That's not the issue I have though. All of these thinkpieces on Magic presume that the moral education must be of a social justice sort, looking down on anyone who differs. It's not enough to intervene in a situation and tell some jerk not to treat a lady like that, no, you've got to fully internalize a bunch of SocJus dogma and regurgitate it like your some kind of university apparatchik.

And all these people are concerned first and foremost with social justice shit and little more. Why do I say this? Well, Magic is a kid's game, there's a lot of young folks that sling cardboard, and game stores can often be decidedly un-PG. But you don't read articles about Magic players vulgarity problems, that game stores aren't a kid-friendly place. And, funny enough, most Magic players would probably scoff at this, think it prudish.

No, it's all about pushing the highly politicized stuff—probably just to gin up outrage, rack up clicks, and sell more ads/cards.

Good post, let's have it without a flame war.

Dice.

[cdr]

Fair enough. Maybe I'm painting with too broad of brushstrokes and letting my irritation at an obnoxious minority get in the way of things—maybe I'm . That said, it's abundantly clear that many of the users in this thread are motivated by such things.

You can't identify even one person who is, I guarantee it.



Sure thing. That's not the issue I have though. All of these thinkpieces on Magic presume that the moral education must be of a social justice sort, looking down on anyone who differs. It's not enough to intervene in a situation and tell some jerk not to treat a lady like that, no, you've got to fully internalize a bunch of SocJus dogma and regurgitate it like your some kind of university apparatchik.

I have no idea what the hell "social justice dogma" is, but apparently to you making gaming more inclusive is. You are really hung up on this social justice stuff, you need to get outside more.

[Amon Amarth]

From someone who has been playing Magic for 16 years and has helped run a store the biggest issue I've dealt with, from a social standpoint, is poorly socialized players. Young men (and a few women) that don't know how to act appropriately. Some fall right into the smelly, weird nerd stereotype, unfortunately. A lot of this falls on the store owner and employees to have a zero tolerance policy for shittiness which can be hard to do during a tournament, if you have a lack of staff, etc. I don't think they were bigots, just dumb kids.

[Stan]

Second, realize that you're disbelieving women who share their experiences because of selfish self-interest. Your response should not be "well, it's all anecdotal so I have no reason to believe her", your response should be to believe her because you have no reason not to believe her. You only disbelieve because that's what makes you more comfortable.


In pretty much every country in the civilized world (let's assume every participant in this thread resides in the civilized world) stalking and sexual harassment are criminal offenses, for obvious reasons. Accusing somebody of sexual harassment is every bit as serious as accusing him or her of being a thief, a vandal,... One doesn't do such things without at least partial evidence or verifiable elements that somehow corroborate the accusation. People not believing any accusation of criminal behaviour has nothing to do with 'selfish self interest', and everything with hundreds of years of historical evidence teaching us what harm baseless public accusations can cause to both the targeted individuals and society as a whole. I'm obviously only talking of 'he said she said' situations. I find that if you have suffered reprehensible behaviour from somebody but you lack any hard evidence to denounce the person, the wisest thing to do is usually to avoid them. You yourself are the person most suited to look out for your own wellbeing and happiness.

Questioning the sincerity and good faith of people who question a non verifiable accusation of criminal and/or disgusting behaviour is a reprehensible tactic which was used by Gestapo and Stasi types in the not so distant past.

[warfordium]

*sigh*

I will say, my favorite part of these threads is getting to learn who all the shitty people are.


^^^^^^ literally why i'm reading. pleasantly surprised at how far people like us have come in recognizing our power and privilege—its reeeeeeeaaaal easy to be blind to it.

[warfordium]

Why do you immediately argue the exception when the rule suggests she's telling the truth?

hits it on the head.

also, for a little perspective on Living While Female, this story in our local free weekly (http://www.straight.com/news/666666/vanessa-woznow-fear-lwf-living-while-female) (Vancouver's equivalent of Seattle's The Stranger). Note that this took place mid-day on a Saturday. I used to take this transit stop a lot before we (stupidly) bought a car, to get back and forth from my LGS. Now I'm picturing myself as a woman…after dark…busting to take a piss because my bus connection is 20 minutes away at 22:30 on a Thursday night…then having a cop tell me "this park is pretty sketchy" instead of taking action right away.

point I'd like to make to all you fellas: life is whole lot shittier for anyone who is not a man (especially not a white man in North America). you literally have to work hard to understand it. and working hard to understand it is not incentivized by society. i've been lucky to have women in my life who have shown and explained how it is, and have really appreciated my humility and been super patient when i kept banging my head against the "i-dont-see-it-that-way-im-a-humanist-not-a-feminist" door.

[keys]

hits it on the head.

also, for a little perspective on Living While Female, this story in our local free weekly (http://www.straight.com/news/666666/vanessa-woznow-fear-lwf-living-while-female) (Vancouver's equivalent of Seattle's The Stranger). Note that this took place mid-day on a Saturday. I used to take this transit stop a lot before we (stupidly) bought a car, to get back and forth from my LGS. Now I'm picturing myself as a woman…after dark…busting to take a piss because my bus connection is 20 minutes away at 22:30 on a Thursday night…then having a cop tell me "this park is pretty sketchy" instead of taking action right away.

point I'd like to make to all you fellas: life is whole lot shittier for anyone who is not a man (especially not a white man in North America). you literally have to work hard to understand it. and working hard to understand it is not incentivized by society. i've been lucky to have women in my life who have shown and explained how it is, and have really appreciated my humility and been super patient when i kept banging my head against the "i-dont-see-it-that-way-im-a-humanist-not-a-feminist" door.

Good post.

It's amazing that this thread has gotten so many replies so fast. I hope it's genuinely because the people on this forum care about discussing the issue and not because it's polarizing.

Even if the OP's story was even slightly exaggerated (for dramatic effect or otherwise), there are too many independent reports of these things actually happening that we can't just ignore it as "someone else's community" or "it's just attention seeking" (the latter being FAR more absurd/damaging)

It's clearly an issue, it's something everyone needs to be aware of, and if there are any steps we as a larger community can take to provide a safer environment for women/minorities in the future, I fully support it.

Respect to the women who have the courage to go public with stories like these.

[Stuart]

In pretty much every country in the civilized world (let's assume every participant in this thread resides in the civilized world) stalking and sexual harassment are criminal offenses, for obvious reasons. Accusing somebody of sexual harassment is every bit as serious as accusing him or her of being a thief, a vandal,... One doesn't do such things without at least partial evidence or verifiable elements that somehow corroborate the accusation. People not believing any accusation of criminal behaviour has nothing to do with 'selfish self interest', and everything with hundreds of years of historical evidence teaching us what harm baseless public accusations can cause to both the targeted individuals and society as a whole. I'm obviously only talking of 'he said she said' situations. I find that if you have suffered reprehensible behaviour from somebody but you lack any hard evidence to denounce the person, the wisest thing to do is usually to avoid them. You yourself are the person most suited to look out for your own wellbeing and happiness.

Questioning the sincerity and good faith of people who question a non verifiable accusation of criminal and/or disgusting behaviour is a reprehensible tactic which was used by Gestapo and Stasi types in the not so distant past.

There's an unfortunate trend on the internet nowadays in which everything a person says has to be robustly defended and proveable. It kinda undermines what it means to be human: sharing anecdotes and expressing feelings are part of life, and don't have to be held to the rigid standards of law, academia, science, etc. In the case of the OP, her blog post isn't making criminal accusations against named people (other than Wyrd), so why exactly does she need to provide hard proof of her claims? No one's freedom is at risk; she's just sharing her experiences. I would hope that if in real life someone told you they were raped at a game store, your reaction wouldn't be "show me the security camera footage."

[jandax]

To the females who get rape threats or other such comments whispered into their ears, the solution is simple. Ball your first, aim for the side of the chin and follow through with a well deserved sucker punch. The result will be beneficial to you in multiple ways.
-the offender will NOT report it. Did they just get knocked on their ass by a girl? Yes. Will they tell anyone about it? Negative.
-the offender will NOT think twice about messing with you in the future.
-you will easily be an instant hero. All the other villains will shrink away and rethink their attitude on life.
-you'll be in one of those rare, storied situations where street justice prevails when the authorities weren't around. It's up lifting. Motivating.


Was this post anecdotal or just a fabrication to prove a point?

Is up to the individual to decide and act.

[Admiral_Arzar]

*sigh*

I will say, my favorite part of these threads is getting to learn who all the SJWs are.



Fixed. Considering this thread is basically a mod-sanctioned social justice jerk (based on a tumblr rant accusing all white men of terrorism) I see no reason why it's of further use to anyone. Jamaican Zombie Legend's comments about ideologues and virtue signaling seem pertinent.

[Aggro_zombies]

I don't think violence is an acceptable solution to other people's shittiness. The onus shouldn't be on the woman to have to prove a point to the assholes, the onus should be on the assholes to contain their assholery and on the community at large to create and enforce a message that assholery isn't acceptable.

[barcode]

Fixed. Considering this thread is basically a mod-sanctioned social justice jerk (based on a tumblr rant accusing all white men of terrorism) I see no reason why it's of further use to anyone. Jamaican Zombie Legend's comments about ideologues and virtue signaling seem pertinent.

Feel free to leave if you're unhappy with the mod team.

[Dice_Box]

SJW.
I still can't work out why this abbreviation is an insult. I don't understand why seeking equality and respect among all Races, Genders and sexual ordinations is at all a bad thing.

[Admiral_Arzar]

I don't think violence is an acceptable solution to other people's shittiness. The onus shouldn't be on the woman to have to prove a point to the assholes, the onus should be on the assholes to contain their assholery and on the community at large to create and enforce a message that assholery isn't acceptable.

Agreed. However, in this case, it might be better than no solution. Bullies tend to be insecure and tend to respond to a show of force, whether it be verbal or physical.


Feel free to leave if you're unhappy with the mod team.

So it's "get on board or gtfo" eh? Nice discussion and debate we're having here, ideologue. I have issues with dissent being censored in what was supposed to be a discussion thread.


I still can't work out why this abbreviation is an insult. I don't understand why seeking equality and respect among all Races, Genders and sexual ordinations is at all a bad thing.

From my understanding, the term was widespread on tumblr and was used as a self-descriptor. It was adopted by the enemies of the far left that it represents (as a derisive term) and thus the meaning of the term has evolved. As for your question - no it isn't a bad thing, and if that's all that came with it I doubt people would take issue. It's like asking why people can be against feminism when it's just "equality for the sexes." That might be the dictionary definition, but that's rarely what it is in practice.

[Ace/Homebrew]

I still can't work out why this abbreviation is an insult. I don't understand why seeking equality and respect among all Races, Genders and sexual ordinations is at all a bad thing.
I know. It's like it'd be terrible if all these claims of harassment were false and we worked to improve society for no reason!

[rufus]

There's an unfortunate trend on the internet nowadays in which everything a person says has to be robustly defended and proveable. ...

That's not the case at all: it's easy to find echo chambers of people who are busy yanking each others chains and agreeing with themselves while silencing critics.


... why exactly does she need to provide hard proof of her claims ...

"I saw it on the internet, so it must be true."

Neither the facebook poster, nor the "friend on facebook", nor the thread starter have to do anything, but most people won't be persuaded by "because I say so" from some anonymous stranger on the internet.

[barcode]

So it's "get on board or gtfo" eh? Nice discussion and debate we're having here, ideologue. I have issues with dissent being censored in what was supposed to be a discussion thread.

No one has said that, except you. You seem to have a disagreement with how the moderation team of this website operate. No one is forcing you to partake in the discussions especially when you seem to disagree with the moderators.

[Admiral_Arzar]

"Get on board or get out!", barks the commissar.


Please do, yes.




No one has said that, except you. You seem to have a disagreement with how the moderation team of this website operate. No one is forcing you to partake in the discussions especially when you seem to disagree with the moderators.

See above, and keep the snark to yourself.

[Dice_Box]

It was adopted by the enemies of the far left that it represents (as a derisive term) and thus the meaning of the term has evolved.
Personally, I would consider myself a Libertarian, progressively Left, fiscally Right. So I would not seek to label myself at all "Far Left" but yet would have no issue with being labled as a "SJW". I guess we just don't all fit into molds.

Also, cdr only has mod powers in the Interactions and Rules forum. He does not get a say in issues like this thread staying open. His views are his own and in this thread, his privileges are the same as anyone else's.

[Stuart]

That's not the case at all: it's easy to find echo chambers of people who are busy yanking each others chains and agreeing with themselves while silencing critics.

"I saw it on the internet, so it must be true."

Neither the facebook poster, nor the "friend on facebook", nor the thread starter have to do anything, but most people won't be persuaded by "because I say so" from some anonymous stranger on the internet.

You're right, I definitely take everything on the internet at face value.

Look, no one's arguing that it's impossible the OP isn't lying. The point several people have made in this thread is that just because something's anecdotal doesn't mean we need to discount it (and isn't part of a systemic problem. As the article by Ferret suggests, the fact that these anecdotes are so common is itself a form of data/proof). The thing is, when discussions of sexual harassment and inequity pop up, the dissenting opinions tend to immediately go with the "she must be lying" or "well, where's the proof?" argument.

Speaking of, I'm still a little clear what the "dissenting opinion" is in this thread? That sexual inequity and harassment aren't real? Or does everyone agree on that, and the argument is actually just that we're being condescending?

[Aggro_zombies]

Agreed. However, in this case, it might be better than no solution. Bullies tend to be insecure and tend to respond to a show of force, whether it be verbal or physical.
I disagree. If I go to a park and a random stranger comes by and kicks me in the shins apropos of nothing, I'm just not going back to the park. I have other things I can do for leisure that don't require me to be ready to engage in shows of machismo because some people don't feel the need to contain their shin-kicking, and it's kind of unreasonable that a generally innocuous activity like visiting a park in broad daylight would need to end in such self-defense.


So it's "get on board or gtfo" eh? Nice discussion and debate we're having here, ideologue. I have issues with dissent being censored in what was supposed to be a discussion thread.
Freedom of speech means you're entitled to expression of your opinion, but others are equally entitled to express their belief that your opinion is shitty.

[Admiral_Arzar]

Freedom of speech means you're entitled to expression of your opinion, but others are equally entitled to express their belief that your opinion is shitty.

Expressing their belief that my opinion is shitty is quite different from essential saying "shut up and gtfo."


I disagree. If I go to a park and a random stranger comes by and kicks me in the shins apropos of nothing, I'm just not going back to the park. I have other things I can do for leisure that don't require me to be ready to engage in shows of machismo because some people don't feel the need to contain their shin-kicking, and it's kind of unreasonable that a generally innocuous activity like visiting a park in broad daylight would need to end in such self-defense.



I don't think we're disagreeing here. I'm not claiming that people should have to respond in that way, and I don't think any reasonable person would do so. My point is sometimes a forceful response to a bully is better than nothing at all.

[Ace/Homebrew]

Speaking of, I'm still a little clear what the "dissenting opinion" is in this thread? That sexual inequity and harassment aren't real? Or does everyone agree on that, and the argument is actually just that we're being condescending?
I'd like some clarity on this as well.

Attack the argument, not the person.

Dice.

[Aggro_zombies]

Expressing their belief that my opinion is shitty is quite different from essential saying "shut up and gtfo."
What you do when the majority of users in a thread disagree with you is up to you. I won't moderate your opinion or theirs unless the discussion spirals out of control or otherwise degenerates into a shitfest. Some people feel passionately about this issue and will post as such, but thus far there have not been a large number of untoward comments.

If you disagree, we can discuss it, but you seem to be on the minority side of the thread consensus.

[Admiral_Arzar]

I'd like some clarity on this as well.

Admiral_Arzar, are you authorized to speak on behalf of the Dude Bros? Here's your chance to exercise freeze peach.

Your condescension is noted. I feel no need to do so, as Jamaican Zombie Legend has already done a rather fine job.

[Ace/Homebrew]

It's all about pushing the highly politicized stuff—probably just to gin up outrage, rack up clicks, and sell more ads/cards.

I went to find what you were referencing. I'm not looking to oversimplify or put words in mouths. And I'm all out of snark for the time being.
Is this a good summation of the dissenting opinion? That the concern isn't sincere and is instead selfishly motivated?

[Aggro_zombies]

I think the dissenting opinion could be summarized as, "This is not something I've seen happen / my community is good, therefore these are isolated incidents and the author here is sensationalizing things in a Buzzfeed/Jezebel/HuffPo-style attempt to drum up page views and outrage among leftist activist types."

Correct me if I'm wrong.

[Julian23]

"This is not something I've seen happen / my community is good, therefore these are isolated incidents

This is a non sequitur and also why the discussion can get pretty tedious because it makes the conclusion appear rather arbitrary. Now you can go ahead and say that the other side does exactly the same, and that's true on first glance. However the "other side's" argument requires a much smaller amount of evidence in order to be true. Saying that there is a problem with certain ethnic groups or genders being made uncomfortable is a pretty "small" claim as opposed to saying that there is no such problem at all.

It comes down to what you consider to be enough of a frequency/likeliness in order to qualify for that behavior to become a general problem in the community. Which makes the whole distinction whether something is problematic at least somewhat arbitrary. From the top of my head, if there was like a 0,1% chance I'd be made uncomfortable at a LGS, I wouldn't mind at all. That's probably in line with general chance of being made uncomfortable in public. However if there was say a 10% chance, I think that would already be a huge problem and I'm pretty sure I would avoid such places entirely over time. I hope this helps to illustrate why I said that people arguing for "there is no problem" are required to provide a significantly larger amount of evidence. Just because it happens in the very tiny sample size that is your experience doesn't mean that it's like that in 99%+ of places.

[Stan]

There's an unfortunate trend on the internet nowadays in which everything a person says has to be robustly defended and proveable. It kinda undermines what it means to be human: sharing anecdotes and expressing feelings are part of life, and don't have to be held to the rigid standards of law, academia, science, etc. In the case of the OP, her blog post isn't making criminal accusations against named people (other than Wyrd), so why exactly does she need to provide hard proof of her claims? No one's freedom is at risk; she's just sharing her experiences. I would hope that if in real life someone told you they were raped at a game store, your reaction wouldn't be "show me the security camera footage."

She's asking for people to call out those who are accused of intolerable behaviour by women in the gaming world, that implies identifying them. If some woman claims she was raped by 'some guy' in a shop without evidence, I may or may not be sympathetic if I hear about it, depending on the credibility. No need to come up with footage. If she says she was raped by 'that guy', she identifies him. At that point it becomes slander if you accuse somebody in public of a crime without proof.

[Ace/Homebrew]

I think the dissenting opinion could be summarized as, "This is not something I've seen happen / my community is good, therefore these are isolated incidents and the author here is sensationalizing things in a Buzzfeed/Jezebel/HuffPo-style attempt to drum up page views and outrage among leftist activist types."
Okay, so there does not appear to be any disagreements that the gaming community is overwhelmingly white and male. Does all the off-topic discussion boil down to disagreements between 'groups that think the gaming community should more closely reflect society at large' and 'groups that think the gaming community is fine being mostly white and male'?

[Dice_Box]

I don't want to put everyone into baskets but... (always a but) but I think we are split down political lines. While no one can debate the known facts (More men then woman play these games openly, more white men in Western nations, women are more likely to be the target of directed or sustained harassment) how you view these facts, frame them in your mind and react to them seems to be more political and less a disagreement on the make up of the community.

[Aggro_zombies]

Okay, so there does not appear to be any disagreements that the gaming community is overwhelmingly white and male. Does all the off-topic discussion boil down to disagreements between 'groups that think the gaming community should more closely reflect society at large' and 'groups that think the gaming community is fine being mostly white and male'?
I think the issue is that a lot of people feel either that the problem is being blown out of proportion or that the community is being unfairly demonized by people looking to make mountains out of molehills for political gain. Because the issue is not visible to you if you don't go looking for it, it can be easy to feel like you're being blamed for something you didn't do and don't consider to be your fault.

I suspect the number of actual "Girls get out, boys only" individuals is really low.

[cdr]

Okay, so there does not appear to be any disagreements that the gaming community is overwhelmingly white and male. Does all the off-topic discussion boil down to disagreements between 'groups that think the gaming community should more closely reflect society at large' and 'groups that think the gaming community is fine being mostly white and male'?

I don't think the gaming community 'should' have any particular makeup. I think anyone who wants to game should be able to game, without having to put up with being treated differently because they don't fit a stereotype.

[Ace/Homebrew]

Because the issue is not visible to you if you don't go looking for it, it can be easy to feel like you're being blamed for something you didn't do and don't consider to be your fault.
So wouldn't that mean the dissenters are taking an issue which is not about them, and making it about them?


I don't think the gaming community 'should' have any particular makeup. I think anyone who wants to game should be able to game, without having to put up with being treated differently because they don't fit a stereotype.
I agree, my point was more that if this was the case, the gaming community would be more diverse. I did not intend to imply gaming culture will only be 'right' when it completely reflects society, but my statement does read that way. My bad.

[rufus]

You're right, I definitely take everything on the internet at face value.

Not at all, but it seems like almost nobody is really persuaded by the stuff in the OP - rather, depending on previous views, people are either inclined to discard it, or see it as reinforcement. People seeing only what they want to see is part of the human condition.

As a secondary issue, the OP is inflamatory rhetoric. Should we really expect civil discussion or credence after someone starts with the phrase "male white terrorism problem"?


Speaking of, I'm still a little clear what the "dissenting opinion" is in this thread?

Fundamentally, it comes down to: it's not my responsibility to shape the world to meet someone else's ideals.

[Aggro_zombies]

So wouldn't that mean the dissenters are taking an issue which is not about them, and making it about them?
Not necessarily. "Why am I being blamed for something that's not my fault and that I didn't do?" is a natural and not entirely unreasonable reaction.

I think the best response to that is something like, "This may not be your fault, but here's what you can do to help make the problem better." Inaction and apathy are their own form of problem.

[Richard Cheese]

I know. It's like it'd be terrible if all these claims of harassment were false and we worked to improve society for no reason!

Because a false accusation never did any harm?

Personally I think something like racism, abuse or sexual assault should be taken very seriously either way. Besides the terrible and lasting consequences for the accused, allowing accusations of these natures to be used as a weapon or as a tool for personal gain does a terrible disservice to actual victims. It only adds fuel to the false accusation narrative and helps to create an environment of skepticism towards actual victims, making the process of coming forward that much more daunting and traumatic. Personally I don't think this is a widespread problem based on the statistics I've seen, but that does not mean it simply doesn't exist.

Magic is a huge community, and I think like any big community you have a core of pretty decent people, and a handful of shitheads out on the fringes. Sexists, racists, bullies, cheaters, homophobes, whatever. You name it, we probably have them, and it's not really a thing we can "fix" on any kind of permanent basis. Assholes exist, they'll find hobbies. I think all we can do as a community is try to treat everyone with equal respect, and call out asshole behavior when we see it. Doesn't matter who the target is, just don't be an asshole to other players, and don't let other players be assholes to each other. In fact, we don't even need to be assholes to the assholes, we just have to make it clear that their behavior is unacceptable and won't be tolerated in our community. We're all outcasts and misfits to some extent, and you don't know what kind of fucked-up past has led a person to think their shitty behavior is acceptable or warranted.

[Stan]

Okay, so there does not appear to be any disagreements that the gaming community is overwhelmingly white and male.

Unless if you're posting from Japan (the only majority nonwhite country with a decent legacy scene), the vast majority of the population at large in your country is white. I don't see the problem if our social subgroups reflect demography as a whole. I've been playing Magic since before Visions came out, and in all those years I've never seen anybody make a problem of that. To the best of my knowledge, the only Magic player who ever won a game in a Magic World Championship final for my country (Belgium) was Dilson La Fonseca, a black Brazilian and very nice guy who was part of our national team which lost the final 2-1 to Germany in the early 2000s (the other two were ranked much higher tham him and both lost).

Women gaming: what kind of troglodites frequent your gameshops, if such accusations of vile sexual insults come off as very credible to you?

[Ace/Homebrew]

Not necessarily. "Why am I being blamed for something that's not my fault and that I didn't do?" is a natural and not entirely unreasonable reaction.
But only the most hyperbolic SJW, or a Poe (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poe%27s_law) would state all white males are part of the problem based on the fact they are white males. A brief period of self-reflection can determine whether you are part of the problem and if you aren't, it is clear you aren't being blamed.

Are we going to constantly experience the distractions simply because of some hyperbole in the article linked in the OP? Is the only way to have productive discussion (which there has been a lot of, thankfully) to close this thread and start a new one that doesn't include the linked article? That seems ridiculous if true.

[Stuart]

She's asking for people to call out those who are accused of intolerable behaviour by women in the gaming world, that implies identifying them. If some woman claims she was raped by 'some guy' in a shop without evidence, I may or may not be sympathetic if I hear about it, depending on the credibility. No need to come up with footage. If she says she was raped by 'that guy', she identifies him. At that point it becomes slander if you accuse somebody in public of a crime without proof.

I guess I'm not sure what your point is. Yeah, if you want to publicly accuse someone of something, you should probably be able to back that up (and before you hop on your blog, you should pursue some more official/legal channels first). The thing is, women aren't exactly rewarded for accusing people of rape, and having evidence doesn't necessarily get you anywhere. Take the Jameis Winston case: for her efforts, that woman is now hated by legions of FSU fans and will always be associated with rape. Lucky her!

In the OP's case, she isn't naming names, she has pursued some legal action (to mixed results), and she's encouraging people to speak up about harassment.


People seeing only what they want to see is part of the human condition.

#

Fundamentally, it comes down to: it's not my responsibility to shape the world to meet someone else's ideals.

I agree that people see what they want to see.

Re. responsibility: I mean, OK, I guess. How about as a less lofty goal: let's try to be aware of (and empathetic to) what it's like to be a female gamer?

[Zilla]

If she says she was raped by 'that guy', she identifies him. At that point it becomes slander if you accuse somebody in public of a crime without proof.Nope. Slander - by definition - is making a knowingly false accusation. I promise you, if you've been raped, you'll know it's true. Proof would be required for a criminal conviction, and part of that proof would be the victim's testimony. But it's absolutely not slanderous to accuse someone of something you know is true.




All of these thinkpieces on Magic presume that the moral education must be of a social justice sort, looking down on anyone who differs. It's not enough to intervene in a situation and tell some jerk not to treat a lady like that, no, you've got to fully internalize a bunch of SocJus dogma and regurgitate it like your some kind of university apparatchik.
I'm gonna be honest with you. When I first started reading the article, I had the exact same reaction. White Male Terrorists? Come the fuck on. Could this be any more shrill and obnoxious? I read the entire article while passively annoyed. At many points I just wanted to write it off and move on.

But here's the thing: I'd be pretty shrill too if this kind of shit happened to me. In fact, if even one of these anecdotes had happened to me I'd want to commit literal homicide, let alone all of them. Ultimately I think the message is more important than the tone. If I'm dying for a Coke and you bring it to me in a Pepsi glass I'm still gonna drink it.

Ideally, we can look past our annoyance at being condescended to and recognize that a problem exists and it's within our power as a community to help fix it.

[CutthroatCasual]

I guess I'm not sure what your point is. Yeah, if you want to publicly accuse someone of something, you should probably be able to back that up (and before you hop on your blog, you should pursue some more official/legal channels first). The thing is, women aren't exactly rewarded for accusing people of rape, and having evidence doesn't necessarily get you anywhere.

Even if the verdict comes back not guilty, the damage has already been done and that accusation/case will remain on the male's file for the rest of his life, and it will be brought up at every job interview or performance review or whatever else.


Nope. Slander - by definition - is making a knowingly false accusation. I promise you, if you've been raped, you'll know it's true. Proof would be required for a criminal conviction, and part of that proof would be the victim's testimony. But it's absolutely not slanderous to accuse someone of something you know is true.

Now I'm not claiming what I'm about to say next is what happened in the OP article, but there have been instances where there will be consensual intercourse between two partners and then one of them has regrets that they slept with the other and thus accuse them of rape in order to hide their own shame/guilt/what have you.


So portraying women as raunchy lust objects is perfectly fine and doesn't send out a wrong message at all..? Right...

TIL Bible Black represents all anime. Why don't you actually look into more kinds of anime aside from HS of the Dead, HS DxD, and other ecchi? Of course, that would destroy your argument so you won't.

[Ace/Homebrew]

Because a false accusation never did any harm?
This seems like a weird take-away from what I wrote, but whatever... I agree with everything else you said.


I don't see the problem if our social subgroups reflect demography as a whole.
Women gaming: what kind of troglodites frequent your gameshops, if such accusations of vile sexual insults come off as very credible to you?

Women make up 50% of society. Their percentage in the gaming community is significantly lower than that and it isn't because there aren't women gamers. That tells me some of the accusations are likely credible.

[Richard Cheese]

Not necessarily. "Why am I being blamed for something that's not my fault and that I didn't do?" is a natural and not entirely unreasonable reaction.

I think the best response to that is something like, "This may not be your fault, but here's what you can do to help make the problem better." Inaction and apathy are their own form of problem.

Well, to be perfectly fair, I think statements like


It succeeds because the majority of men in the community are too cowardly to stand against the bullies and the terrorists.




It is almost impossible to convince gamers that sexist and racist jokes are unacceptable and that they make others uncomfortable and drive people off.




“Asshole behaviour” only persists because the majority of men are too cowardly to call the assholes what they are.




change the image of a gamer from a slavering neckbearded rapist anonymously e-mailing women death threats to something more positive.


are a pretty shitty way to get a legitimate conversation started. Some Glengarry Glen Ross shit right there.

[Stuart]

Even if the verdict comes back not guilty, the damage has already been done and that accusation/case will remain on the male's file for the rest of his life, and it will be brought up at every job interview or performance review or whatever else.

Yep, and that's absolutely a fucked up situation. However, I'm not sure why there's this conception that women falsely accusing men of rape is anywhere near as prominent as real, actual rape.

[Fox]

From the OP, I'm kind of at a loss for how one person has had that many personal awful experiences in gaming (this is a composite right, stories from many people told by one blogger?). As a completely neutral observer, if your first sentence is: "This isn’t the first time I’ve received an avalanche of threats from pathetic and insecure men," I'm rapidly losing sympathy because behaviour like this means you're actively searching for hostile responses - and if that blog isn't being discussed second hand (as in this thread), I've honestly stopped reading there and set sympathy to zero for both parties (accuser and accused).

I don't run a game store, but I can't imagine that there are huge profit margins....the idea that they will run off "creepers" on your behalf probably ends up with a bankrupt LGS; by the bloggers own implicit viewpoint she is outnumbered numerically and thus financially. Congrats on being righteous, but siding with you (outside of just being a decent human being, and fostering that in a local meta) means killing off swaths of LGS's.

Let's work through the blog from a US perspective for a few "++++" segments sequentially:
-guys with hundreds(??) of dollars in warhammer, probably paying for the venue, get away with griefing someone buying $5 of dice
-people who are immersed in online and gaming culture have retreated from the real world to varying degrees, did you think it was because most of them had great experiences there? Cops are mostly frat boys and in general will view people of color, women, and the gaming community as less than worthy of their time.
-you're a gamer, on some level you understand the link between choosing to enter a situation where something unjust happens (GHB in pepsi) to you as being avoidable at the controlling/entering the situation phase regardless of being in the right. Recently Aggro_zombies illustrates this with his not going to a park to avoid being kicked in the shins. Your story is the real-world equivalent of getting scammed; provide something useful to cut down on it, not "it was wrong so it shouldn't happen."
-in general white male gamers are not part of "the establishment" nor are they pro-police.
-something of substance, a legal precedent...and we get a single sentence of no particular use to those who would set company policies for their business.
-the internet is like a car, people are a-holes when they get behind the wheel. This is a known product of anonymity moreso than it is "dangerous" in a physical sense.

The online community is somewhat dulled when it comes to normal (real world) levels of emotional response, why are you doubling-down on eliciting that type of response when intelligent, rational debate is a far more effective tool? You're preaching to the crowd that mows their lawn on saturday and goes to church on sunday; how is recruiting the conservative-leaning into this overwhelmingly liberal-leaning area supposed to garner sympathy?

The blogger is justified, just like everyone else with a keyboard. Nothing was actually accomplished because the people online, and at their local LGS, who would read past that opening sentence are already about "being nice and helping people out." No one from the middle is going to go along on some impulsive, mindless, and completely unfocused super-crusade against online&LGS injustice whose only motivation is to stamp out injustice, damn the torpedoes...certainly not any more than swaths of people are going to hunt down all those scamming Nigerian princes, because you know...they're liars!

[Dice_Box]

8 pages in and Dick still did the best summery on the first page. That has to be some kind of record.

[cdr]

-you're a gamer, on some level you understand the link between choosing to enter a situation where something unjust happens (GHB in pepsi) to you as being avoidable at the controlling/entering the situation phase regardless of being in the right. Recently Aggro_zombies illustrates this with his not going to a park to avoid being kicked in the shins. Your story is the real-world equivalent of getting scammed; provide something useful to cut down on it, not "it was wrong so it shouldn't happen."

This entire post is bullshit, but here especially - you are directly blaming her for being drugged and assaulted. You are saying women should expect to be drugged and raped at gaming conventions and the only sane thing to do is to avoid gaming and male gamers entirely. Think about how fucked up that viewpoint is.


-in general white male gamers are not part of "the establishment"

White males are "the establishment". We are talking gaming here, white male gamers are the establishment. Get over your persecution complex and realize pretty much everyone who has the same interests as you but is not male (and/or white etc) has it way worse.

[TsumiBand]

I have two daughters 14 years apart and I trembled with anger and fear as I read the article earlier this week.

I've told the long version of this story before -- I helped my oldest conquer some of her math issues by getting her into Magic. I built Mono Kithkin with lots of tiny buffs, some Cenn's Heir, some life gain, etc. At first I helped her add up her combat damage, then I cut her loose amd made her do it herself. That was when she was 8; she's 15 now. She's not working with Mandelbrot or anything but she's a helluva lot stronger in math than previously.

I read this article, and it gives me great pause to think about the community I've introduced her to. It almost makes it feel like a mistake. To think that she might go to an FNM, get felt up and then just as quickly be called an attention whore - pisses me right the fuck off.

I've been playing since 2001, and I know the way guys talk about the game and the way they talk to each other. I know it needs to improve. I realize a lot of men are also legitimately seeking solace in nerdery as a means of self-expression and trying to feel comfortable.

Remember Crackgate? Some dude at a GP took "thug shots" next to every overweight player showing an ass crack during a match, and posted it online. Story was (is) huge. A lot of people saw something ridiculous and inane, but some people went "oh, great, fat-shaming in the one place I used to count on to avoid it. I have no actual place to go outside my home noe where I can't be sure to encounter this. Thanks."

Now look, when it comes to the internet it's too fractured and polarized to affect real change, at least within itself. There's always gonna be trolls. But if someone is being shitty to someone else at an event, and you're there and nobody's doing anything about it? Maybe consider doing something about it. Is someone reciting that inane "old enough to breed/bleed" tripe at your LGS? You can take action on that level. That's the only place where it really truly matters, because that's pretty much where the "social metagame" exists, and if you're actually interested in seeing this kind of stuff go away, you gotta run your tech in the main deck.

[Stan]

This seems like a weird take-away from what I wrote, but whatever... I agree with everything else you said.



Women make up 50% of society. Their percentage in the gaming community is significantly lower than that and it isn't because there aren't women gamers. That tells me some of the accusations are likely credible.

Men make up 50% of society too, and are equally underrepresented in (random example) zumba courses. Proof of sexism too? In my 20 years of Magic, I can honestly say I haven't seen a single woman participate in a tournament who wasn't there with her boyfriend/husband, and I've participated in a whole lot of them. There are obviously women gamers out there, but 50%? I'm all for more women in the game, because more players of any demographic is obviously good to keep our hobby alive, but their lack of participation in itself isn't necessarily a symptom of some underlying nastiness of the playerbase.

[Fox]

This entire post is bullshit, but here especially - you are directly blaming her for being drugged and assaulted. You are saying women should expect to be drugged and raped at gaming conventions and the only sane thing to do is to avoid gaming and male gamers entirely. Think about how fucked up that viewpoint is.
White males are "the establishment". We are talking gaming here, white male gamers are the establishment. Get over your persecution complex and realize pretty much everyone who has the same interests as you but is not male (and/or white etc) has it way worse.
If you play games, you understand causality. You know for instance that if you go to a GP in another city, you are more likely to have your deck stolen if you share your hotel room out of the kindness of your heart. If your deck is stolen due to that situation it is not because you weren't wrongly victimized, but it was avoidable - nothing changes if the only substance you bring to the source is "I was wronged."

The blogger is trying to achieve a change in the community, their method of using an example of rape/assault is totally ineffective past garnering sympathy. Sympathy isn't the problem, people know the problem exists and they sympathize - but sympathy is by itself useless. If you are sincere about decreasing these problems you have to attack the problem from both sides which does mean would-be victims have to change their behaviours too - it's not about who is right and who is wrong, the people who are right still have to adapt because the problem is more effectively reduced when they do.

If you read the OP that statement is in reply to the blogger outrage that no-one [that is a white male gamer] would believe how bad the police are.
"Many men are under the fallacious assumption the police exist to serve and protect the population. They do not. They exist to keep the peace. Often this means intimidating women out of filing reports or pressing charges. I have no idea why this is the case."
The majority of white male gamers agree, the police are scum - what's your point? The end result is contempt for the blogger who is now slandering most white male gamers' viewpoints.

[Dice_Box]

Watch SCG chats when a woman is playing. There is a nasty streak in the player base wide enough to drive a Mac truck though.

Switch to other games, if you happen to be female and want to play shooters on console, best not turn on your mic. If your female and you want to say, look different thanks to a nose ring, best not make yourself a public figure. If your a woman and you happen to have an opinion on the female form in gaming, you best keep it to yourself because teenage boys and keyboard warriors know more about the way a woman's body is meant to look than you do.

Nastiness in the playerbase? Give some lovely people even a moment of anonymity, a woman they disagree with and a keyboard... It ain't nasty no, it's down right evil.

[cdr]

If you play games, you understand causality. You know for instance that if you go to a GP in another city, you are more likely to have your deck stolen if you share your hotel room out of the kindness of your heart. If your deck is stolen due to that situation it is not because you weren't wrongly victimized, but it was avoidable - nothing changes if the only substance you bring to the source is "I was wronged."

The blogger is trying to achieve a change in the community, their method of using an example of rape/assault is totally ineffective past garnering sympathy. Sympathy isn't the problem, people know the problem exists and they sympathize - but sympathy is by itself useless. If you are sincere about decreasing these problems you have to attack the problem from both sides which does mean would-be victims have to change their behaviours too - it's not about who is right and who is wrong, the people who are right still have to adapt because the problem is more effectively reduced when they do.

If you read the OP that statement is in reply to the blogger outrage that no-one [that is a white male gamer] would believe how bad the police are.
"Many men are under the fallacious assumption the police exist to serve and protect the population. They do not. They exist to keep the peace. Often this means intimidating women out of filing reports or pressing charges. I have no idea why this is the case."
The majority of white male gamers agree, the police are scum - what's your point? The end result is contempt for the blogger who is now slandering most white male gamers' viewpoints.

Frankly if the blog post had been about getting decks stolen you types would have been completely sympathetic. There would have been none of this disbelief, this demanding evidence, this insinuating that she's making it up for nefarious purposes. Why? Because you understand deck theft, but you're completely unwilling to listen to the experiences of someone who's not exactly like yourself. "I've never experienced that, so it must be lies! If it's not a lie, it's her own fault!"

Please, educate me on how her being drugged was avoidable.

She is not looking for sympathy, she is trying to raise awareness of women's experiences with gaming and male gamers. Her biggest complaint as far as I can see is bystanders consistently doing nothing or even backing up the perpetrator or joining in with him. This is exactly what we can improve.

And pretty sure at least one person in this thread already said they don't believe the police did nothing when she called. A lot of guys have zero idea what reporting a sexual assault to the police is like, and how terrible the police often handle it.

[barcode]

In my 20 years of Magic, I can honestly say I haven't seen a single woman participate in a tournament who wasn't there with her boyfriend/husband, and I've participated in a whole lot of them.

Your eyes are closed. Open them up.

[Stan]

Watch SCG chats when a woman is playing. There is a nasty streak in the player base wide enough to drive a Mac truck though.

Switch to other games, if you happen to be female and want to play shooters on console, best not turn on your mic. If your female and you want to say, look different thanks to a nose ring, best not make yourself a public figure. If your a woman and you happen to have an opinion on the female form in gaming, you best keep it to yourself because teenage boys and keyboard warriors know more about the way a woman's body is meant to look than you do.

Nastiness in the playerbase? Give some lovely people even a moment of anonymity, a woman they disagree with and a keyboard... It ain't nasty no, it's down right evil.

The internet is nasty to everybody. You name it, and people have been trolled over it. I absolutely agree that many teenage boys are absolute idiots who put everybody in an awkward situation as soon as they try to engage with a woman, but that's universal. We just notice it because our generation and especially the gaming subculture is stupid enough to actually care about what teenagers do.

When it comes to teenage girls, I am reminded (obvious personal anecdote, but this thread is full of them) of a petting zoo I visited with my kid two years ago. Some idiot had put a single doe together with ten rams, and they all charged it with the obvious intention to mount it, with the doe constantly on the run. I was glad my kid was too young to ask me what they were doing. Anyway, the same behaviour will happen when a teenage girl enters a circlejerkoff session of some gaming chatsession. Teenage boys, hormonally driven into obnoxiousness, act very unpleasant around the isolated female because they think it will somehow score them social points. That's life, it's hardwritten in the DNA of our very flawed species. Teenagers act stupid because they are stupid.

[Stan]

Your eyes are closed. Open them up.

Good to know I can always count on you to tell me from the other side of the ocean what I have missed in the gaming room I just played in.

[Stan]

Frankly if the blog post had been about getting decks stolen you types would have been completely sympathetic. There would have been none of this disbelief, this demanding evidence, this insinuating that she's making it up for nefarious purposes. Why? Because you understand deck theft, but you're completely unwilling to listen to the experiences of someone who's not exactly like yourself. "I've never experienced that, so it must be lies! If it's not a lie, it's her own fault!"

Of course, we believe what is plausible. Permit me a little bit of hyperbole to make my point. If a woman you know comes to you and tells you she was victim of one of the following attempted crimes in a gaming store, you'd likely rank them from more to less likely as follows:

"some asswipe tried to steal my foil Jace"
"some asswipe pinched my tit when nobody was looking"
"some asswipe tried to cut off my arm so he could eat it"

You instinctively know that the allegation of theft is most likely, and that of cannibalism least. The sexual harassment would rank inbetween. You know this because of personal experience and observation. I restate what I have said earlier: what manner of troglodites frequent your gaming stores that you immediately accept those allegations of widespread sexual misconduct without solid evidence? I'll assume everybody who participates here is rational, so this acceptance must come from personal observations somehow.

[Dice_Box]

Just, because I feel like this might add some nuance to this conversation, here is something I came across that has some parallels to this.

http://mobile.abc.net.au/news/2016-04-01/victim-blaming-never-her-fault/7288468

[Quasim0ff]

Men make up 50% of society too, and are equally underrepresented in (random example) zumba courses. Proof of sexism too? In my 20 years of Magic, I can honestly say I haven't seen a single woman participate in a tournament who wasn't there with her boyfriend/husband, and I've participated in a whole lot of them. There are obviously women gamers out there, but 50%? I'm all for more women in the game, because more players of any demographic is obviously good to keep our hobby alive, but their lack of participation in itself isn't necessarily a symptom of some underlying nastiness of the playerbase.

There's a difference between being underrepresented and being driven away and this being underrepresented.

Men can participate in Zumba classes, without getting stalked, whistled at, getting their asses grabbed and everything else women are experiencing.

You do recognize that difference, right? That's like... The whole premise behind this "discussion".

[Fox]

Frankly if the blog post had been about getting decks stolen you types would have been completely sympathetic. There would have been none of this disbelief, this demanding evidence, this insinuating that she's making it up for nefarious purposes. Why? Because you understand deck theft, but you're completely unwilling to listen to the experiences of someone who's not exactly like yourself. "I've never experienced that, so it must be lies! If it's not a lie, it's her own fault!"

Please, educate me on how her being drugged was avoidable.

She is not looking for sympathy, she is trying to raise awareness of women's experiences with gaming and male gamers. Her biggest complaint as far as I can see is bystanders consistently doing nothing or even backing up the perpetrator or joining in with him. This is exactly what we can improve.

And pretty sure at least one person in this thread already said they don't believe the police did nothing when she called. A lot of guys have zero idea what reporting a sexual assault to the police is like, and how terrible the police often handle it.
I am sympathetic to both the contents in the blog, and the person who gets their deck stolen. The net effect of me sympathizing with someone who is victimized does nothing. Identifying the crime and adding sympathy does not equal a solution; you have to understand the circumstances. Take TsumiBand's post, do you know what information [not in this blog] that would have [sadly] been beneficial for him to pass on to his daughters? Don't accept drinks that aren't sealed, and especially not non-sealed drinks that are flavored and are not clear.

Sure we could try to for some utopia where bad things don't happen to good people, it's just not realistic. That's really the problem with the blog, it is not an effective tool in making gaming more gender/race-friendly. The tone of the opening sentence "This isn’t the first time I’ve received an avalanche of threats from pathetic and insecure men" is actually made to worsen the problem.

Remove emotion, analyze the blog. Examples of wrong to garner sympathy with an ethereal, wide-sweeping plea to act on sentiment alone, which would probably lower the total number of incidents by virtue of destroying the size of the gaming community, attacking its places of assembly. These are standard deviations (the blogger and the accused) within the gaming community, interpret with caution.

[Stan]

There's a difference between being underrepresented and being driven away and this being underrepresented.

Men can participate in Zumba classes, without getting stalked, whistled at, getting their asses grabbed and everything else women are experiencing.

You do recognize that difference, right? That's like... The whole premise behind this "discussion".

Obviously. Now please provide me of at least partial evidence of this behaviour being common in gaming stores, other than the hysterical ravings of a bleeting social justice warrior who accuses the entire white male heterosexual part of the gaming community of terrorism. You do recognize the difference between hysterical accusations on a blog and actual facts, right?

[Quasim0ff]

Obviously. Now please provide me of at least partial evidence of this behaviour being common in gaming stores, other than the hysterical ravings of a bleeting social justice warrior who accuses the entire white male heterosexual part of the gaming community of terrorism. You do recognize the difference between hysterical accusations on a blog and actual facts, right?

This happens. There's not really a lot of data; How would there?

You have someone telling you her first hand experiences. You have people in here telling you their experiences, you have people telling their girlfriends experiences.

These are all just lies, presented by "social justice warriors"?

[Stan]

I am sympathetic to both the contents in the blog, and the person who gets their deck stolen. The net effect of me sympathizing with someone who is victimized does nothing. Identifying the crime and adding sympathy does not equal a solution; you have to understand the circumstances. Take TsumiBand's post, do you know what information [not in this blog] that would have [sadly] been beneficial for him to pass on to his daughters? Don't accept drinks that aren't sealed, and especially not non-sealed drinks that are flavored and are not clear.

Sure we could try to for some utopia where bad things don't happen to good people, it's just not realistic. That's really the problem with the blog, it is not an effective tool in making gaming more gender/race-friendly. The tone of the opening sentence "This isn’t the first time I’ve received an avalanche of threats from pathetic and insecure men" is actually made to worsen the problem.

Remove emotion, analyze the blog. Examples of wrong to garner sympathy with an ethereal, wide-sweeping plea to act on sentiment alone, which would probably lower the total number of incidents by virtue of destroying the size of the gaming community, attacking its places of assembly. These are standard deviations (the blogger and the accused) within the gaming community, interpret with caution.


One of the more levelheaded replies on this thread. Well written. Expect an avalanche of rightgeous outrage.

I only have a son, so this part of parenting is lost on me, but is the drugging and subsequent abuse of women so frequent in your neck of the woods that you have to teach your daughters not to even accept a glass of cola? A single such incident would cause a national outrage here.

[Dice_Box]

One of the more levelheaded replies on this thread. Well written. Expect an avalanche of rightgeous outrage.

I only have a son, so this part of parenting is lost on me, but is the drugging and subsequent abuse of women so frequent in your neck of the woods that you have to teach your daughters not to even accept a glass of cola? A single such incident would cause a national outrage here.

Yes. Buy a drink in a bar here, it comes in a plastic cup that has a film stuck over the opening and a single straw punched though. No fucking joke.

[Stan]

This happens. There's not really a lot of data; How would there?

You have someone telling you her first hand experiences. You have people in here telling you their experiences, you have people telling their girlfriends experiences.

These are all just lies, presented by "social justice warriors"?

I have an obviously slanted blog starting this exchange, and a lot of people on this thread saying they believe all or some of it because of stuff they once heard. I never said that all of this is impossible, as long as you have weirdoes who can't control their impulses in your society, you'll have crime of every sort. But in just about every gaming store or tournament hall I ever entered in all my years, most of the teenage and early 20s boys were too timid to even address women, and the older ones just assumed that the somewhat rare women present were there with somebody (usually the case), and left them alone. Open antisocial behaviour that's also a crime (racism, sexism and most other forms of discrimination are every bit as illegal as theft and rape in most European countries) gets you ostracized in just about every social group (except drunken football hooligans, but I'm not even sure those types are fully human). I can't believe that American or Canadian gamers are so much less civilized, so I'm hesitant to believe that such behaviour is so much more common in essentially the same demographic in those countries.

The internet on the other hand, where those same dumb useless teenage boys are anonymous,... Let's just say we've all seen 4chan. No argument there.

[Stan]

Yes. Buy a drink in a bar here, it comes in a plastic cup that has a film stuck over the opening and a single straw punched though. No fucking joke.

You have my attention. Are those rapes common enough, or is this a case of every cup of coffee having 'attention, hot beverage inside' mentioned on it because of one high profile incident 25 years ago? The only 'raped while passed out' incidents you hear of here involves shit faced drunk women, sometimes because they drank themselves in a stupor, sometimes because the rapist helped a hand. Drugs, unheard of.

[Dice_Box]

Shit face drunk women sounds very close to victim blaming.

Also it's more or less anything you buy from a bar in Sydney. (Brisbane not so much.) The idea is to stop people slipping something into your drink. As for how common rapes are here, would you forgive my ignorance on such matters? I no longer watch TV and I try not to read about them if I can manage. I find the subject of rape to be most displeasing.

[cdr]

The internet on the other hand, where those same dumb useless teenage boys are anonymous,... Let's just say we've all seen 4chan. No argument there.

Considering the use of "SJW", I am not convinced you and other posters did not come straight from 4chan. I'm amazed no one's been called a "cuck" yet.

[Stan]

Shit face drunk women sounds very close to victim blaming.


And this post sounds very much like indoctrinated outrage over something you disagree with. If you know a better expression for 'being intoxicated to the point of passing out' that's also somewhat concise, then by all means substitute my expression for that in your mind. But, if you insist on bringing up 'victim blaming': do you close your car after you park it on the street?

[iamajellydonut]

Men can participate in Zumba classes, without getting stalked, whistled at, getting their asses grabbed and everything else women are experiencing.

Not that I'm pro-groping as I do feel it's quite the vile offense, but as a guy who frequently finds himself the minority in groups of women in a casual and even semi-professional environment, I can tell you that I get my ass grabbed and smacked quite frequently and that there is no shortage of lewd comments and other acts, and I occasionally find myself being emasculated by some for not reciprocating. Difference being that "as a guy", I don't mind.

I genuinely think that a lot of it comes down to men being bigger and therefore potentially meaner. I know that if a woman ever grabs my ass and I'm not ok with it, that I can tell her to go to hell and non-violently muscle my way out of it (slender though I may be). The same cannot be said for a woman. It's a terrible feeling when you don't actually have control over your own person.

[Stan]

Considering the use of "SJW", I am not convinced you and other posters did not come straight from 4chan. I'm amazed no one's been called a "cuck" yet.

Yes, I use words you don't like. I must be a troll.

[cdr]

Yes, I use words you don't like. I must be a troll.

Terms that are basically meaningless - I have yet to see anyone explain the term in any meaningful way. Terms I have only ever seen used by insecure misanthropes. Does the fact that the language comes from 4chan and the seedier parts of reddit give you any pause?

Trolls are just trying to provoke a reaction. No, you're far too invested in avoiding responsibility for how your complacency negatively affects people who are not you to be a troll.

[Stan]

Terms that are basically meaningless - I have yet to see anyone explain the term in any meaningful way. Terms I have only ever seen used by insecure misanthropes. Does the fact that the language comes from 4chan and the seedier parts of reddit give you any pause?

Trolls are just trying to provoke a reaction. No, you're far too invested in avoiding responsibility for how your complacency negatively affects people who are not you to be a troll.

Invested? Annoyed perhaps, when I read some hysterical blog from a random blue haired manhating feminist who attacks the entire white heterosexual male demography for terrorism, knowing in advance that hordes of adult males will outbid eachother in denouncing their own 'privilege' in a pathetic pissing contest to signal their own virtue the loudest. The majority of the guys who have done this on this thread are North American, so I'm willing to entertain the thought that such behaviour may be worse in that part of the world. But please, provide something more tangible than just hearsay and that aforementioned blog, instead of getting angry when somebody approaches the issue without your emotional baggage.

[Richard Cheese]

Yes. Buy a drink in a bar here, it comes in a plastic cup that has a film stuck over the opening and a single straw punched though. No fucking joke.

The fuck? Do guys just not know that masturbation exists anymore? It's pretty fucking legit, especially once you get good at it.

[Stan]

The fuck? Do guys just not know that masturbation exists anymore? It's pretty fucking legit, especially once you get good at it.

Whaddaya know, this man has made the two best posts of the thread now.

[cdr]

some hysterical blog from a random blue haired manhating feminist who attacks the entire white heterosexual male demography for terrorism, knowing in advance that hordes of adult males will outbid eachother in denouncing their own 'privilege' in a pathetic pissing contest to signal their own virtue the loudest.

Come on, tell us how you really feel.

[Quasim0ff]

Invested? Annoyed perhaps, when I read some hysterical blog from a random blue haired manhating feminist who attacks the entire white heterosexual male demography for terrorism, knowing in advance that hordes of adult males will outbid eachother in denouncing their own 'privilege' in a pathetic pissing contest to signal their own virtue the loudest. The majority of the guys who have done this on this thread are North American, so I'm willing to entertain the thought that such behaviour may be worse in that part of the world. But please, provide something more tangible than just hearsay and that aforementioned blog, instead of getting angry when somebody approaches the issue without your emotional baggage.
https://www.regjeringen.no/contentassets/a0f79a10854045c68770c5408e2b3d66/nkvts_vold-voldtekt-2014.pdf?id=2227457
I know you don't speak norwegian, so you just have to take me on my word;

33% of all female and 10% of all men have been sexually assaulted, in some form or capacity (13 or less and been sexually pressured by someone at least 5 years old, raped, sexually harassed when drunk/unable to express a desire to stop what's happening to you, feeling of genitals through force, pressured into sex/alike).

That's ONE IN EVERY THREE.

But sure. They are all man-hating feminist.

[Stan]

https://www.regjeringen.no/contentassets/a0f79a10854045c68770c5408e2b3d66/nkvts_vold-voldtekt-2014.pdf?id=2227457
I know you don't speak norwegian, so you just have to take me on my word;

33% of all female and 10% of all men have been sexually assaulted, in some form or capacity (13 or less and been sexually pressured by someone at least 5 years old, raped, sexually harassed when drunk/unable to express a desire to stop what's happening to you, feeling of genitals through force, pressured into sex/alike).

That's ONE IN EVERY THREE.

But sure. They are all man-hating feminist.

Wait, back off. Forget about the women, ten percent of your MEN have been fondled or buggered against their will? Wtf???

[Julian23]

It always baffles me how people can reasonably come forward with this "they are accusing all males" straw man. Nobody believes that's the case. Nobody would defend someone who would really accuse all men of causing the problem, that would be insane.

Can we please stop pretending people complaining about sexism are making that claim?

[Ace/Homebrew]

Wait, back off. Forget about the women, ten percent of your MEN have been fondled or buggered against their will? Wtf???
They weren't necessarily men (read: adult) at the time they experienced the abuse.

http://www.pressconnects.com/story/news/2016/03/09/priest-abuse-altoona-pa-scandals-fallout-hits-community/81518646/
This occurred in my state over the course of decades. In many cases the children reported the abuse to parents or loved ones and were not believed because it was unthinkable to them that a trusted priest could sexually abuse children.

[Stan]

It always baffles me how people can reasonably come forward with this "they are accusing all males" straw man. Nobody believes that's the case. Nobody would defend someone who would really accuse all men of causing the problem, that would be insane.

Can we please stop pretending people complaining about sexism are making that claim?

Agreed. Let's stop with the stupid claim that people who point out that certain behaviour statistically increases the likelihood of becoming victim of a crime are guilty of victim blaming too, while we're at it.

[cdr]

Agreed. Let's stop with the stupid claim that people who point out that certain behaviour statistically increases the likelihood of becoming victim of a crime are guilty of victim blaming too, while we're at it.

Leaving the basement statistically increases your likelihood of being a victim of a crime. Are you advocating never leaving the basement?

[Ace/Homebrew]

Does this one hit close enough to home for you?

'No Belgian church escaped sex abuse', finds investigation
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/belgium/7994705/No-Belgian-church-escaped-sex-abuse-finds-investigation.html

[Stuart]

Agreed. Let's stop with the stupid claim that people who point out that certain behaviour statistically increases the likelihood of becoming victim of a crime are guilty of victim blaming too, while we're at it.

Considering that's exactly what victim blaming is, no, let's not stop with that one.

[Esper3k]

You have my attention. Are those rapes common enough, or is this a case of every cup of coffee having 'attention, hot beverage inside' mentioned on it because of one high profile incident 25 years ago?

Just as a side note, since I believe you are referring to the famous McDonald's hot coffee case (if you aren't, please forgive my assumption and just let us know what case you were referring to?), in that case, McDonald's willfully ignored the advice of their own experts who told them that their coffee was much hotter than human consumption could handle as well as had hundreds of claims against them from victims with similar burns from their coffee. On top of that, the victim suffered third-degree burns over the exposure of a few seconds and had initially asked for the cost of her medical expenses (which McDonald's refused to do).

http://www.lectlaw.com/files/cur78.htm

While there are certainly frivolous lawsuits out there, this common example that people like to use is actually far from frivolous.

[Stan]

They weren't necessarily men (read: adult) at the time they experienced the abuse.

http://www.pressconnects.com/story/news/2016/03/09/priest-abuse-altoona-pa-scandals-fallout-hits-community/81518646/
This occurred in my state over the course of decades. In many cases the children reported the abuse to parents or loved ones and were not believed because it was unthinkable to them that a trusted priest could sexually abuse children.

Yes, priest and teacher fondlings, sadly universal.

I was a lawyer long ago, and one of the clients I was ordered to represent by the system (you can't refuse clients like that while you're in training) was a sexual predator who not only abused the mentally retarded 14 year old female ward of the state placed under his care, but who also pimped her out on the internet, and took photographs of it all for shits and giggles. Those photographs were all added to the court documents of his case, so I am one of those people who were forced by circumstances to witness child pornography. never before or after that has any single person disgusted me like that guy did. That guy was the worst, but not my only rapist client. I've seen enough to never ridicule any form of rape, ever. I've also seen what damage false accusations can do, they'll brand anybody for life. Serious accusations require serious proof in my book.

[Stan]

Considering that's exactly what victim blaming is, no, let's not stop with that one.

Would you agree that I'd be an idiot if I'd leave my car parked unlocked with a laptop visible on the backseat?

[Lord_Mcdonalds]

Would you agree that I'd be an idiot if I'd leave my car parked unlocked with a laptop visible on the backseat?

You still don't deserve to have it stolen from you regardless.

[cdr]

Would you agree that I'd be an idiot if I'd leave my car parked unlocked with a laptop visible on the backseat?

Brilliant, truly original analogy. Haven't heard that one before. Who is the laptop in this one and who is the car? What's unlocked?

[Stan]

You still don't deserve to have it stolen from you regardless.

Never said that I would deserve that. I think you can safely agree with me that I would make it statistically more likely that an asshole with bad intentions would single out my property because I made it an easier target. Now, would I be an idiot for doing that?

[Ace/Homebrew]

Would you agree that I'd be an idiot if I'd leave my car parked unlocked with a laptop visible on the backseat?
Whatever you'd be, you wouldn't deserve to have your personal property stolen.

[Stan]

Brilliant, truly original analogy. Haven't heard that one before. Who is the laptop in this one and who is the car? What's unlocked?

Sometimes the most used pathways have been walked often for good reasons. The car being unlocked would be equivalent to an innocent victim who drinks herself into a stupor and thereby made resistance impossible, I'll leave the mental representation of what exactly the taking of the laptop is equivalent to to your imagination. Unless you can offer a good reason why one described hypothetical crime which was made easier by the behaviour of an undeserving victim cannot reasonably be compared to another hypothetical crime which was made easier by the behaviour of an undeserving victim, I see no reason why this argument would be invalid.

[Stan]

Whatever you'd be, you wouldn't deserve to have your personal property stolen.

Just answer the question. You already did, implicitly, nobody will think less of you.

[Lord_Mcdonalds]

Never said that I would deserve that. I think you can safely agree with me that I would make it statistically more likely that an asshole with bad intentions would single out my property because I made it an easier target. Now, would I be an idiot for doing that?

If there's a theft problem in an area (be it a parking garage or a card shop), then the caretakers/owners of it should also be taking steps to address said issue. Sure, there are steps you can take to defend yourself, but that ultimately doesn't address the core issue of people stealing.

[barcode]

Would you agree that I'd be an idiot if I'd leave my car parked unlocked with a laptop visible on the backseat?

strawman

n.

1. A doll or scarecrow (particularly one stuffed with straw).
2. An insubstantial concept, idea, endeavor or argument, particularly one deliberately set up to be weakly supported, so that it can be easily knocked down; especially to impugn the strength of any related thing or idea.
3. An innocuous person or someone of nominal or lesser importance, as a front man or straw boss.

You are using definition two.

[Stan]

If there's a theft problem in an area (be it a parking garage or a card shop), then the caretakers/owners of it should also be taking steps to address said issue. Sure, there are steps you can take to defend yourself, but that ultimately doesn't address the core issue of people stealing.

Of course not. But taking care of yourself and your property will go a long way towards not becoming the next target of such scum, be it a thief or a rapist. In the end, the only person you can count on to always protect you or your stuff without reservation at any moment is yourself. A predator will always, always, single out the weakest victim (according to his own assessment) available. I find it quite disturbing that so many people in our society immediately accuse you of blaming the victim for pointing that out. Using such easily exposed rhetorical tricks in an attempt to cowe your opponent into silence is one of the telltale signs of being one of those infamous 'sjw'.

edit: post 196 is another good example of such cheap rhetorical tricks being used. Pray tell, barcode, why I shouldn't compare one stupid crimevictim with another one. Enlighten the forum please.

[cdr]

Sometimes the most used pathways have been walked often for good reasons. The car being unlocked would be equivalent to an innocent victim who drinks herself into a stupor and thereby made resistance impossible, I'll leave the mental representation of what exactly the taking of the laptop is equivalent to to your imagination. Unless you can offer a good reason why one described hypothetical crime which was made easier by the behaviour of an undeserving victim cannot reasonably be compared to another hypothetical crime which was made easier by the behaviour of an undeserving victim, I see no reason why this argument would be invalid.

Beyond the obvious stupidity of this argument, you're suddenly changing the situation to "a woman who drinks herself into a stupor". Apparently it's too much for even you to explain how this pertains to a guy who premeditatedly bought date rape drugs, got a drink for a woman just so he could drug it, gave it to her, and then took her to his room to rape her.

And this is right after:


I've seen enough to never ridicule any form of rape, ever.

Get the fuck out of mtgthesource, get the fuck out of my games. Hopefully the admins will be around soon to clean your shit up.

You are the problem with men in gaming. If anyone needed a perfect example.

[Ace/Homebrew]

Just answer the question. You already did, implicitly, nobody will think less of you.
Trusting.

You've set up a Black-and-White logical fallacy where the choices are either 'idiot' or 'not idiot'. I reject that those are the only two options available.

[Stan]

Trusting.

The difference between trusting and stupid isn't always easy to make.

[TsumiBand]

I actually find it encouraging that non-North American posters are trying to wrap their heads around this like 'wait, you mean they ACTUALLY serve drinks with plastic on because your men can't figure out how not to rape people?' The shit answer to this is, yes, it is that bad.

[Stan]

Beyond the obvious stupidity of this argument, you're suddenly changing the situation to "a woman who drinks herself into a stupor". Apparently it's too much for even you to explain how this pertains to a guy who premeditatedly bought date rape drugs, got a drink for a woman just so he could drug it, gave it to her, and then took her to his room to rape her.

And this is right after:



Get the fuck out of mtgthesource, get the fuck out of my games. Hopefully the admins will be around soon to clean your shit up.

You are the problem with men in gaming. If anyone needed a perfect example.

a) I specifically mentioned the 'drinking oneself into a stupor' situation in an earlier post. Not my fault if you missed that. Being drugged or poisoned is beyond anybody's control, if anybody uses a strawman in this exchange it's you, when you compare that with the hypothetical unlocked car I mentioned.

b) Calling for a ban now for a member who hasn't broken any forum rule, just because you disagree with his posts? You were born a few decades to late my good fellow, you'd have made quite a career for yourself in the 1970s in the East German secret service.

[Fox]

Leaving the basement statistically increases your likelihood of being a victim of a crime. Are you advocating never leaving the basement?
This is not a just world; if you don't want certain things to happen to you, the chances are there are minor ways to change how you act such that those certain things basically can't happen. It isn't all or nothing, what is certain though is that going through life protected by imaginary armor of objective righteousness doesn't count for much when something bad [and probably avoidable] happens. If you are a pedestrian who crosses one-way streets and never checks for someone driving the wrong direction, you have to accept that you're potentially dead to such an outlier. Choosing to look both ways before crossing any street doesn't mean you have to, for instance, walk down the sidewalk looking at the sky so that an air conditioner doesn't break free and flatten you.
Risk exists at varying degrees, see also Quasim0ff's statistics. After a certain point the would-be victim has to decide whether or not to make a conscious choice to change or not to change their behaviour in light of the risks. [Assuming you want to really address the problem] It is contradictory to completely absolve someone from proactively protecting themselves from sexual assault (in this case GHB, in a place without the policy dice box describes), while probably simultaneously holding the belief that an STD-free person should use a condom so they won't contract an STD. Those who keep getting mired down in protecting the righteous party from altering their behaviour are certainly making a point (and they aren't wrong), but they're also doing it at the cost of more victims.

It continues that the blogger spouts all this righteousness about broader subjects within the gaming community, but has no real interest in fixing the problem.

[Ace/Homebrew]

No one said 'ban'. The implication is that your worthless posts would be deleted.

I also find it hilarious that you can label someone an SJW and also say they'd fit in with the East German Secret Service.

http://www.reactiongifs.us/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/picard_clapping.gif

[square_two]

Of course not. But taking care of yourself and your property will go a long way towards not becoming the next target of such scum, be it a thief or a rapist. In the end, the only person you can count on to always protect you or your stuff without reservation at any moment is yourself. A predator will always, always, single out the weakest victim (according to his own assessment) available. I find it quite disturbing that so many people in our society immediately accuse you of blaming the victim for pointing that out. Using such easily exposed rhetorical tricks in an attempt to cowe your opponent into silence is one of the telltale signs of being one of those infamous 'sjw'.

Predators, the actual evil people that do these acts, benefit quite a bit from a society of individuals who spend more effort blaming vague groups of people than spending time taking precaution and cracking down on individual perpetrators.

It's why I don't care for these discussions, I have so little faith that anything will be changed. I'm all for perpetrators to be caught, and for police to be more effective. I've no idea how to do either of those in my current position in life. I try to only frequent game stores that look responsible, clean, and welcoming. I'll try now to be more aware of instances either locally or at large events where sexism or racism might occur and push someone away from Magic. I really like Magic and want a bigger, better community of people to play with. Maybe it starts with my own play group locally, they curse way too much around kids and I'll speak up next time. As for more extreme sexist comments or abuse, I will try to be more alert.

[Stan]

I also find it hilarious that you can label someone an SJW and also say they'd fit in with the East German Secret Service.


Yes, where could I possibly get the idea that people who get a kick out of removing others from society for having the wrong thoughts would do well in a communist secret service which was so efficient because it relied on everybody ratting out their neighbours for something they said in private while having coffee?

[TsumiBand]

Yes, where could I possibly get the idea that people who get a kick out of removing others from society for having the wrong thoughts would do well in a communist secret service which was so efficient because it relied on everybody ratting out their neighbours for something they said in private while having coffee?

You're comparing women to laptops.

You're comparing a ban on a message board to the actions of the Gestapo.

You're legitimately out of touch with the core of the conversation.

cdr was totally correct to lay into you.

[Stan]

You're comparing women to laptops.

You're comparing a ban on a message board to the actions of the Gestapo.

You're legitimately out of touch with the core of the conversation.

cdr was totally correct to lay into you.

a)I'm comparing one preventable crime to another, the fact that one of them involves property and the other physical integrity is irrelevant, it bothers you for emotional reasons while you clearly miss the obvious similarity: in both cases a careful potential victim can lower their chances of becoming an actual victim. If you read an excuse for the behaviour of the perpetrator in that (THAT would be victim blaming), you need to improve your comprehensive reading skills.

b) Actually I'm comparing the call for somebody to be banned for expressing a different opinion with the stasi. Whoever owns this forum has the obvious right to exclude anybody from his or her property for any reason.

On top of that, if certain comparisons offend you, reread the very first post. You know, the one where idiot teenage boys who make stupid remarks to women are now terrorists.

[TsumiBand]

a)I'm comparing one preventable crime to another, the fact that one of them involves property and the other physical integrity is irrelevant, it bothers you for emotional reasons while you clearly miss the obvious similarity: in both cases a careful potential victim can lower their chances of becoming an actual victim. If you read an excuse for the behaviour of the perpetrator in that (THAT would be victim blaming), you need to improve your comprehensive reading skills.

b) Actually I'm comparing the call for somebody to be banned for expressing a different opinion with the stasi. Whoever owns this forum has the obvious right to exclude anybody from his or her property for any reason.

"Actually it's about ethics in game journalism"

[Megadeus]

Predators, the actual evil people that do these acts, benefit quite a bit from a society of individuals who spend more effort blaming vague groups of people than spending time taking precaution and cracking down on individual perpetrators.

It's why I don't care for these discussions, I have so little faith that anything will be changed. I'm all for perpetrators to be caught, and for police to be more effective. I've no idea how to do either of those in my current position in life. I try to only frequent game stores that look responsible, clean, and welcoming. I'll try now to be more aware of instances either locally or at large events where sexism or racism might occur and push someone away from Magic. I really like Magic and want a bigger, better community of people to play with. Maybe it starts with my own play group locally, they curse way too much around kids and I'll speak up next time. As for more extreme sexist comments or abuse, I will try to be more alert.

This post is basically my thoughts. Aside from cursing (which I have separate thoughts on censorship), I agree basically.

Everyone who is disagreeing with Stan is basically saying that rapists shouldn't rape or thieves shouldn't steal. Which is true. But if you have the ability to lower your chances of something bad happening to you, you should probably do it.

[Julian23]

Everyone who is disagreeing with Stan is basically saying that rapists shouldn't rape or thieves shouldn't steal. Which is true. But if you have the ability to lower your chances of something bad happening to you, you should probably do it.

It's statements like this that will derail discussions. You stated two things ("Thieves shouldn't steal" + "At least somewhat protect yourself from bad things") which everyone agrees with, but paint it as if the other side didn't.

Because everyone agrees on those basic statements, they aren't even part of the discussion. Yet people always go back to these basic statements that aren't even really related to the discussion. I mean it's obvious you wanna make the connection between the "protect yourself" part and women being discriminated or even raped, but you're not gonna get away with such an outrageous claim.

[TsumiBand]

I mean most countries charge their criminals on a sliding scale, precisely because "you did a bad thing" doesn't quite xover it, right? That's everything from shoplifting to mass murder, and we don't treat them with the same punishment so why would you expect a blanket statement like "don't do bad things but protect yourself against bad things too obviously" to be universally applicable?

Even if that were a fair statement to make, doesn't it strike anyone as fucked up that "dont go to an LGS" is a thing womdn have to do to not be treated like meat? Is there nothing that compels one to try and affect change?

[Stan]

I mean most countries charge their criminals on a sliding scale, precisely because "you did a bad thing" doesn't quite xover it, right? That's everything from shoplifting to mass murder, and we don't treat them with the same punishment so why would you expect a blanket statement like "don't do bad things but protect yourself against bad things too obviously" to be universally applicable?

Even if that were a fair statement to make, doesn't it strike anyone as fucked up that "dont go to an LGS" is a thing womdn have to do to not be treated like meat? Is there nothing that compels one to try and affect change?

The 'don't go to a game store' line was mentioned as a claimed quote in the original post, nobody who replied has used it, or implied it. If you have very good reasons to avoid a specific lgs, then maybe it'd be wise to do that. I stopped attending weekly playsessions of a playgroup after having cards of mine stolen there. I assume I'm not the only forum member who ever had that problem. Scum exists in every society, always has and always will. If you have a splendid idea on how to get them to clean up their act (whatever that act is, be it shoplifting or mass murder to use your examples), then please do it. You wouldn't be the first to try and you won't be the last, but I honestly hope your idea will work. In the mean time, don't blame those people who prefer the very realistic goal of protecting themselves over the utopian alternative of trying to change society.

[Esper3k]

This post is basically my thoughts. Aside from cursing (which I have separate thoughts on censorship), I agree basically.

Everyone who is disagreeing with Stan is basically saying that rapists shouldn't rape or thieves shouldn't steal. Which is true. But if you have the ability to lower your chances of something bad happening to you, you should probably do it.

Yeah but it's all about balance between the two isn't it? While it's reasonable to expect someone to try and lock their car door, it's not reasonable to expect someone to never buy a laptop for fear of it being stolen.

Regardless, even if someone left their car door unlocked, they still didn't deserve to have their stuff stolen.

[Zilla]

Stan, just out of curiosity, if you drank too much at a friend's party and passed out only to wake up in a groggy haze to find a guy you didn't know working his dick inside you, would the first thing you think to yourself be, "man, why did I let this happen to me?" Whatever answer you give, I'm guessing the real answer is fuck no.

And if your argument is, "well, guys don't tend to get raped by guys at parties so they don't have a reasonable expectation that drinking to the point of blacking out is a bad idea, that's the whole fucking point.

The fact that it's such a societal norm for guys to rape unconscious women that it should just be expected is utterly preposterous and a giant fucking problem. And the correct response to this problem is NOT "hey, it's a dangerous world out there, just stay home" or "sorry, it's just hardwired into our DNA, you should expect it" or some other disingenuous bullshit copout answer.

It's to publicly shout down people that think the status quo is okay or a foregone conclusion. It's to recognize that by taking that stance you enable it to continue. It's about recognizing that just because a fucked up thing has been a fucked up thing for our whole lives doesn't mean it can't change. If that were true we'd still be buying and selling black people.

[Fox]

Is there nothing that compels one to try and affect change?
The blog opens on an inflammatory note and turns into a parade of "trigger" experiences. The blog isn't about effecting change except here: "The owner refuses to expel the creep and fires me instead. Three years later I win a precedent-setting human rights case against him."

Everything else should be scrapped, and the entire blog should be about the resolution process. Highlighting the point at which legal recourse becomes viable is useful to the aggrieved and those who own/operate an LGS. Expand from here on ideas for individual gamers to avoid letting it get to that point - what should they look for, what are some ideas on how to affect change in a way that recognizes the reality of the economics of an LGS. If you want to use the example of the girl buying dice vs the warhammer crowd, you might confine the suggestion to something like: if you are one of the warhammer players, let the others know that you're more than happy to excuse yourself from that, and future, sessions on the principle of [insert personal reason]. The blog as written would have us decent human being gamers run off potentially hundreds in LGS revenue [warhammer players] for some random customer buying some dice - not going to happen, it ends with a closed LGS.

After sharing some personal experiences and how another gamer could have hypothetically acted to affect positive outcomes, drive the point home - deliver your sexual assault/rape experience (I would use the word 'story' here but it would be incorrectly taken to imply fiction). Make the reader remember, poignantly, that their passivity and inaction perpetuates a cycle that only ends one way.

Something as simple as refusing to sit across from bigotry [at least the overt type] makes a difference. No matter how terrible of a person a gamer is, they're still a gamer - they'll eventually choose gaming over bigotry when the two are shown to be incompatible. Social change is never fast, inciting a crusade is counter-productive.

[jrsthethird]

When it comes to teenage girls, I am reminded (obvious personal anecdote, but this thread is full of them) of a petting zoo I visited with my kid two years ago. Some idiot had put a single doe together with ten rams, and they all charged it with the obvious intention to mount it, with the doe constantly on the run. I was glad my kid was too young to ask me what they were doing. Anyway, the same behaviour will happen when a teenage girl enters a circlejerkoff session of some gaming chatsession. Teenage boys, hormonally driven into obnoxiousness, act very unpleasant around the isolated female because they think it will somehow score them social points. That's life, it's hardwritten in the DNA of our very flawed species. Teenagers act stupid because they are stupid.

But unlike deer, we have formed a society with social standards of what's acceptable and what's not. We have the power to educate our sons that unwanted sexual advances are unacceptable, and a crime at that. We're doing a disservice to our children if we don't teach them social responsibility (and sexuality) at a young age.

"Boys will be boys" is a frequent epithet used by victim blamers/rape sympathizers in response to teenage sex crimes.


Not that I'm pro-groping as I do feel it's quite the vile offense, but as a guy who frequently finds himself the minority in groups of women in a casual and even semi-professional environment, I can tell you that I get my ass grabbed and smacked quite frequently and that there is no shortage of lewd comments and other acts, and I occasionally find myself being emasculated by some for not reciprocating. Difference being that "as a guy", I don't mind.

I genuinely think that a lot of it comes down to men being bigger and therefore potentially meaner. I know that if a woman ever grabs my ass and I'm not ok with it, that I can tell her to go to hell and non-violently muscle my way out of it (slender though I may be). The same cannot be said for a woman. It's a terrible feeling when you don't actually have control over your own person.

I can relate to this post. I've been in groups of predominantly gay men and been groped before. I usually don't mind it, but when I do, it's not pleasant. I've also spent plenty of time as the only man in a group of women, and they can be just as perverse as men. But just like the guys who joke around in private calling each other ****, it's completely different when you get outside your bubble and have to interact with every demographic, not just a few trusted friends.


I actually find it encouraging that non-North American posters are trying to wrap their heads around this like 'wait, you mean they ACTUALLY serve drinks with plastic on because your men can't figure out how not to rape people?' The shit answer to this is, yes, it is that bad.

I'm just surprised because I don't go out anymore to see it happen.


Yes, priest and teacher fondlings, sadly universal.

I was a lawyer long ago, and one of the clients I was ordered to represent by the system (you can't refuse clients like that while you're in training) was a sexual predator who not only abused the mentally retarded 14 year old female ward of the state placed under his care, but who also pimped her out on the internet, and took photographs of it all for shits and giggles. Those photographs were all added to the court documents of his case, so I am one of those people who were forced by circumstances to witness child pornography. never before or after that has any single person disgusted me like that guy did. That guy was the worst, but not my only rapist client. I've seen enough to never ridicule any form of rape, ever. I've also seen what damage false accusations can do, they'll brand anybody for life. Serious accusations require serious proof in my book.

First off, that is a terrible story and I'm sorry you had to help (or try to, at least) that man, but don't poo-poo the anecdotes in the blog because you've seen worse. It's probable that those stories are the worst experiences of those women's lives and "it could be worse" doesn't help. Second, people will take you more seriously if you don't use the word "retarded". I haven't seen much recourse for it on this forum, but you could get an infraction at an event for using it, so tread carefully.


The 'don't go to a game store' line was mentioned as a claimed quote in the original post, nobody who replied has used it, or implied it. If you have very good reasons to avoid a specific lgs, then maybe it'd be wise to do that. I stopped attending weekly playsessions of a playgroup after having cards of mine stolen there. I assume I'm not the only forum member who ever had that problem. Scum exists in every society, always has and always will. If you have a splendid idea on how to get them to clean up their act (whatever that act is, be it shoplifting or mass murder to use your examples), then please do it. You wouldn't be the first to try and you won't be the last, but I honestly hope your idea will work. In the mean time, don't blame those people who prefer the very realistic goal of protecting themselves over the utopian alternative of trying to change society.

If it happens at your LGS, and you ignore it, you're helping the behavior continue. Someone new will come in, earn a bit of trust, get their cards stolen, and never come back, and repeat. If you point out to the store owner that this is happening, you did your part in trying to thwart the behavior. Maybe they'll side with the regulars, but when someone else makes the same complaint, I think that would raise a flag. Same thing with sexist behavior.

[dte]

Stan, I believe you should see what "victim-blaming" means. It means considering the victim as partially responsible for the harm that befell them.
What you are basically saying is that you consider that in some cases it is right to do so. You can do that, and some (such as myself) would disagree.

To go again with your drunk open car-girl, I sometimes like to be really drunk. And I feel safe doing so (I'm a man). I hate to think that at least one half of the population cannot do it without either i) putting oneself at risk and ii) being consider as irresponsible and having rape-inducing behavior.
And if any individual is abused while being dead-drunk, I do not believe that it is its fault at all.


The 'don't go to a game store' line was mentioned as a claimed quote in the original post, nobody who replied has used it, or implied it. If you have very good reasons to avoid a specific lgs, then maybe it'd be wise to do that.


Here, I'll tell you a story: I used to work at an LGS that had a fairly large (by Magic standards) female community. One day, one of the women - who had been quite active in the Commander circles up to this point - just stopped showing up. I thought she'd moved away until a few months later one of the other women mentioned in passing to me that one of our male customers had started stalking her to and from the LGS. She had left because she hadn't felt safe around him and was now playing at an LGS further away from where she lived than we were because the dude didn't have a car and thus couldn't follow her on public transit. We knew who the guy was, too, but the store owner wouldn't take any action about it or let us do anything, so the dude just continued to show up and play in events like nothing had happened.


Here is a sad story, and unfortunately a quite classic one.
I've read some posts here of people being concerned, and wondering what can be done. I personally believe that having the topic, and that it is read is already something good. Because one of the main problems is that it is ignore/unseen. Misconduct against women starts with things which are seemingly socially accepted. In some groups, it can be sexist jokes, talking about their ass, in some other it can even be groping it. It should be clear that sexist jokes or comments on physical appearance are not welcome at any event.

Some posters seems to have been genuinely surprised by what they read. Then it is good that they read it, and I hope but doubt that next time they read the same kind of things they will be less surprised.

[jrsthethird]

And if your argument is, "well, guys don't tend to get raped by guys at parties so they don't have a reasonable expectation that drinking to the point of blacking out is a bad idea, that's the whole fucking point.

Guys don't get raped at parties. They wake up with a dick drawn on their face, not inside of it. It's easy to say "don't drink too much" at a party because when it happens to you, the only thing you have to do to fix it is scrub your face and untag yourself on Facebook. A girl gets raped at a party and she's traumatized for life.

[ESG]

Real people, real experiences. More good reading for anyone.

Haley Gentile:
"What should you do when you hear someone else use this language?
Speak up! Be polite but firm. In most instances I have personally experienced, it suffices to say something along the lines of, “Hey, could you please not use that word?” Rarely have I encountered negative responses to that request, at least in person. As for online play, I have no suggestions that have proven efficacious. Once in an online MTG interface, I asked nicely and at least four of the draft members proceeded to independently message me grotesque and detailed rape threats."
http://brainstormbrewery.com/the-status-of-women-in-magic-lets-talk-about-rape/
(Good article from last year)


Jackie Lee:
After 15 grueling one-on-one matches, Lee’s hard work paid off and she found herself playing in the semifinals. This match would be livestreamed around the globe and commented on by a pair of sportscasters, like a high-stakes poker game.
It was here that Lee’s luck began to change. Cloaked in the anonymity of the stream’s live chat, hundreds of viewers began to berate Lee for what they considered her largest offense: playing cards while female. “From ‘get back to the kitchen’ to comments about how fat or bangable I am, to openly stating one's intention to masturbate, it was pretty much as bad as you could imagine,” Lee told the Daily Dot. “They grew more and more desperate for me to lose, and when I finally lost my semifinal match, they exploded in delight.”
http://www.dailydot.com/society/magic-the-gathering-sexism-misogyny-jackie-lee/


Leigh Fryling:
This example comes from my friend Trevor: “I am thinking of a guy who used to use derogatory terms for women and gay people on a regular basis. One time, when I played Thragtusk and he responded by saying 'Thragtusk, fagtusk,' all I needed to say was 'that’s not cool.'”
http://www.mtgdiversity.org/
(Great advice on how to be inclusive and deal with offensive comments)


Random MTG guy:
Melissa Detora
What did she do to deserve coverage by WotC? Did she win a 20 man PTQ in Alaska or something? Is she the one that tried to game the PWP system to get on the PT at the beginning?
edit: IN MY OPINION, She isn't even that attractive. But coverage teams of all sports and television shows in general like to showcase attractive females for whatever reason. IE jumbotron at sports events, cheerleaders, etc. They're on the screen because they're easy on the eyes. IMO Melissa DeTora isn't, and I find it that most would be hard pressed to argue that she is, therefore proving that unless she is good at magic, she shouldn't be showcased in coverage, much less on the main page of the mothership.
http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/magic-fundamentals/magic-general/327843-melissa-detora

[Dice_Box]

I actually find it encouraging that non-North American posters are trying to wrap their heads around this like 'wait, you mean they ACTUALLY serve drinks with plastic on because your men can't figure out how not to rape people?' The shit answer to this is, yes, it is that bad.
Sad thing is, I am an Australian...


Real people, real experiences. More good reading for anyone.

Haley Gentile:
"What should you do when you hear someone else use this language?
Speak up! Be polite but firm. In most instances I have personally experienced, it suffices to say something along the lines of, “Hey, could you please not use that word?” Rarely have I encountered negative responses to that request, at least in person. As for online play, I have no suggestions that have proven efficacious. Once in an online MTG interface, I asked nicely and at least four of the draft members proceeded to independently message me grotesque and detailed rape threats."
http://brainstormbrewery.com/the-status-of-women-in-magic-lets-talk-about-rape/
(Good article from last year)


Jackie Lee:
After 15 grueling one-on-one matches, Lee’s hard work paid off and she found herself playing in the semifinals. This match would be livestreamed around the globe and commented on by a pair of sportscasters, like a high-stakes poker game.
It was here that Lee’s luck began to change. Cloaked in the anonymity of the stream’s live chat, hundreds of viewers began to berate Lee for what they considered her largest offense: playing cards while female. “From ‘get back to the kitchen’ to comments about how fat or bangable I am, to openly stating one's intention to masturbate, it was pretty much as bad as you could imagine,” Lee told the Daily Dot. “They grew more and more desperate for me to lose, and when I finally lost my semifinal match, they exploded in delight.”
http://www.dailydot.com/society/magic-the-gathering-sexism-misogyny-jackie-lee/


Leigh Fryling:
This example comes from my friend Trevor: “I am thinking of a guy who used to use derogatory terms for women and gay people on a regular basis. One time, when I played Thragtusk and he responded by saying 'Thragtusk, fagtusk,' all I needed to say was 'that’s not cool.'”
http://www.mtgdiversity.org/
(Great advice on how to be inclusive and deal with offensive comments)


Random MTG guy:
Melissa Detora
What did she do to deserve coverage by WotC? Did she win a 20 man PTQ in Alaska or something? Is she the one that tried to game the PWP system to get on the PT at the beginning?
edit: IN MY OPINION, She isn't even that attractive. But coverage teams of all sports and television shows in general like to showcase attractive females for whatever reason. IE jumbotron at sports events, cheerleaders, etc. They're on the screen because they're easy on the eyes. IMO Melissa DeTora isn't, and I find it that most would be hard pressed to argue that she is, therefore proving that unless she is good at magic, she shouldn't be showcased in coverage, much less on the main page of the mothership.
http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/magic-fundamentals/magic-general/327843-melissa-detora
Thank you. You found the article I was looking for yesterday. This is a top post.

[Megadeus]

To those that are saying that we should do something rather than accept that you need to avoid situations you may be uncomfortable/in danger. I don't think anyone disagrees. We all agree that people shouldn't rape others. The unfortunate fact is that people do rape others. Nothing this article or any posters on this thread do will change that fact. So you can either accept that this is the way the world is and try to protect yourself as much as possible, or you can keep yelling at us about how people shouldn't be shitty. If you know that what you're about to do (whether it be go get blackout at a party with strangers or walk around a bad area) has had past negative experiences, you should do something to try to prevent that from happening.

Tldr, the world isn't a utopia and people do shitty things, watch your back

[Zilla]

To those that are saying that we should do something rather than accept that you need to avoid situations you may be uncomfortable/in danger. I don't think anyone disagrees. We all agree that people shouldn't rape others. The unfortunate fact is that people do rape others. Nothing this article or any posters on this thread do will change that fact.
Of course everyone here agrees rape is bad. The core disagreement is that it's just the way things are and nothing can be done about it. I say bullshit. Each and every one of us can work extra hard to help create gaming groups that are open and welcoming to female players. We can make an extra effort to notice when people are being treated poorly. We can tell people in our game stores to knock it the fuck off if we see them mistreating someone.

But probably most importantly, if you have kids one day, you can teach them that rape is NOT just the normal way of things, that they should go out of their way to treat everyone as they themselves want to be treated, even if it might make them seem uncool at the moment, and that instead of being an aggressor or a passive observer they can be a protector and a friend. Too many young men are hopelessly confused about how to interact with the opposite sex, and it can go terribly awry. You have the power to affect that fundamentally.

It's really super simple. Teach your sons to treat girls like they would treat anyone else.

[Megadeus]

I don't think that this article nor the past 12 pages of this were necessary to teach us to tell our sons and daughters to treat others how we want to be treated and to not rape others. Simply put, currently if you're a woman you should take precautions if you're going somewhere where you can be taken advantage of. The world isn't changing overnight.

[Zilla]

I don't think that this article nor the past 12 pages of this were necessary to teach us to tell our sons and daughters to treat others how we want to be treated and to not rape others.Depends who's reading it, I guess. If teaching your kids these things were a foregone conclusion, this problem wouldn't be nearly as prolific as it is in our society.

[Stan]

Stan, just out of curiosity, if you drank too much at a friend's party and passed out only to wake up in a groggy haze to find a guy you didn't know working his dick inside you, would the first thing you think to yourself be, "man, why did I let this happen to me?" Whatever answer you give, I'm guessing the real answer is fuck no.

And if your argument is, "well, guys don't tend to get raped by guys at parties so they don't have a reasonable expectation that drinking to the point of blacking out is a bad idea, that's the whole fucking point.

The fact that it's such a societal norm for guys to rape unconscious women that it should just be expected is utterly preposterous and a giant fucking problem. And the correct response to this problem is NOT "hey, it's a dangerous world out there, just stay home" or "sorry, it's just hardwired into our DNA, you should expect it" or some other disingenuous bullshit copout answer.

It's to publicly shout down people that think the status quo is okay or a foregone conclusion. It's to recognize that by taking that stance you enable it to continue. It's about recognizing that just because a fucked up thing has been a fucked up thing for our whole lives doesn't mean it can't change. If that were true we'd still be buying and selling black people.

This is the biggest strawman I've encountered so far. I have already answered this question earlier in this thread (in general, but it applies just as well to homosexual rape), but if you insist, here we go again.

To blame any crime on anybody else but the perpetrator is wrong. The only person who chooses to engage a rape is the rapist. That being said, if I'd have drunk myself into unconsciousness, I'd have made myself an easier target. The very specific reason that this shitbag would have selected me instead of any other person present would be that I'd be incapable of defending myself. If the unconsciousness would be the effect of being drugged, my defenselessness would not be due to any mistake I made. In both cases, that wouldn't make the creep any less guilty, but in the former, I'd be an idiot to allow myself to become weak beyond any defense or escape. I really don't know how to say this any clearer.

If anybody is shouting down anybody, it's the entire herd who immediately goes into a frenzy of outrage when people point out the obvious fact that you can diminish (but not eliminate) the individual risk of being targeted as the victim of the day by any criminal you encounter.

[Stan]

But unlike deer, we have formed a society with social standards of what's acceptable and what's not. We have the power to educate our sons that unwanted sexual advances are unacceptable, and a crime at that. We're doing a disservice to our children if we don't teach them social responsibility (and sexuality) at a young age.

"Boys will be boys" is a frequent epithet used by victim blamers/rape sympathizers in response to teenage sex crimes.



I can relate to this post. I've been in groups of predominantly gay men and been groped before. I usually don't mind it, but when I do, it's not pleasant. I've also spent plenty of time as the only man in a group of women, and they can be just as perverse as men. But just like the guys who joke around in private calling each other ****, it's completely different when you get outside your bubble and have to interact with every demographic, not just a few trusted friends.



I'm just surprised because I don't go out anymore to see it happen.



First off, that is a terrible story and I'm sorry you had to help (or try to, at least) that man, but don't poo-poo the anecdotes in the blog because you've seen worse. It's probable that those stories are the worst experiences of those women's lives and "it could be worse" doesn't help. Second, people will take you more seriously if you don't use the word "retarded". I haven't seen much recourse for it on this forum, but you could get an infraction at an event for using it, so tread carefully.



If it happens at your LGS, and you ignore it, you're helping the behavior continue. Someone new will come in, earn a bit of trust, get their cards stolen, and never come back, and repeat. If you point out to the store owner that this is happening, you did your part in trying to thwart the behavior. Maybe they'll side with the regulars, but when someone else makes the same complaint, I think that would raise a flag. Same thing with sexist behavior.

1. Boys will be boys: If I ever witness my son doing crap like that, or learn about it afterwards, I'll smack him harder than any person should be smacked, and he'll grow up to thank me for it. We are not an innately civilized species, and need to learn to control our impulses during our lives. That comes earlier to most than to some others. Me doing anything possible to make sure my son learns at a young age how to behave himself is really all I can do, I can tell individuals outside of my family to not act like an animal in heat, but ultimately it's up to them to learn for themselves why they shouldn't.

2. No intention at all to berate that victim mentioned. The girl was 'slow', like they say, and had the intellect of a 7 year old. Add to that a family from hell, and that's why she was placed with the guy. Who turned out to be even worse.

3. Irrelevant detail, but this group didn't play in a shop. We met in the backroom of a bar to play.

[Dice_Box]

Ok, what about for example someone who is too young to defend themselves, someone who is mentally disabled or someone whom is otherwise unable by nature or birth unable to stop another? Where do you stop staying "Well she was the fool who asked for it" and start going "Well she was not ever able to ask for it"?

[Stan]

Ok, what about for example someone who is too young to defend themselves, someone who is mentally disabled or someone whom is otherwise unable by nature or birth unable to stop another? Where do you stop staying "Well she was the fool who asked for it" and start going "Well she was not ever able to ask for it"?

Basic common sense. When you can't do anything to lessen the chance of being a victim of a crime, you essentially did all you could. In the examples you just gave, nature itself made the person defenseless.

[Stan]

It's really super simple. Teach your sons to treat girls like they would treat anyone else.

You don't think that until you're 100% sure that every other father on the planet does that, you can't go wrong with teaching your daughters also to be careful?

[Dice_Box]

And if someone is drunk, they are also just as defenceless. Why does a girl abused by her father get a free pass and a college student raped in her dorm not get one in your mind? After all, one of them made herself the target right? Made herself available, put on something sexy and asked for it?

In my mind it's the same thing. Neither one asked for it, you do not get to say "Well you drank too much so you're to blame". Be it a 9 year old girl and her twisted father or a 19 year old woman and her dorm roommates boyfriend, neither asked for it and both have the same right to expect to be safe regardless of their actions if those actions are lawful.

[Hopo]

If anybody is shouting down anybody, it's the entire herd who immediately goes into a frenzy of outrage when people point out the obvious fact that you can diminish (but not eliminate) the individual risk of being targeted as the victim of the day by any criminal you encounter.

I guess the issue here is that you seem to think of rape as just another crime, like theft, when in fact it's one of the most cruel and crushing thing one can do to another individual. It doesn't seem correct to put it on the same line as robbery/whatever. Rape leaves scars forever, deeper than a non-sexual assault, even. According to your logic (or what I made out of it), women should really, really pay attention to every one of their actions because men might find a weakness, abuse it and then there is already dick entering a vagina because of the woman not doing everything in her power to not actively get raped all the time. That is not how society should work. The issue is absolutely not about women being reckless. It's guys raping girls and other guys suggesting that the responsibility is not 100% on the guy. Sure, there are cases where it's practically impossible for an outsider to say if it was actually a rape. Usually alcohol is involved. In order to solve the problem, that shouldn't be the default setting in anyone's mind, though. That is crooked and very male-centric view of how the world turns.

Someone mentioned that one should leave feelings out of discussion. What a formal way of expressing lack of human empathy.

[Stan]

And if someone is drunk, they are also just as defenceless. Why does a girl abused by her father get a free pass and a college student raped in her dorm not get one in your mind? After all, one of them made herself the target right? Made herself available, put on something sexy and asked for it?

In my mind it's the same thing. Neither one asked for it, you do not get to say "Well you drank too much so you're to blame". Be it a 9 year old girl and her twisted father or a 19 year old woman and her dorm roommates boyfriend, neither asked for it and both have the same right to expect to be safe regardless of their actions if those actions are lawful.

I already said at least five times that the blame of any crime lies with the perpetrator. Are you trying to troll me, or did you miss that clearly stated information every time it was posted?

[Stan]

I guess the issue here is that you seem to think of rape as just another crime, like theft, when in fact it's one of the most cruel and crushing thing one can do to another individual. It doesn't seem correct to put it on the same line as robbery/whatever. Rape leaves scars forever, deeper than a non-sexual assault, even. According to your logic (or what I made out of it), women should really, really pay attention to every one of their actions because men might find a weakness, abuse it and then there is already dick entering a vagina because of the woman not doing everything in her power to not actively get raped all the time. That is not how society should work. The issue is absolutely not about women being reckless. It's guys raping girls and other guys suggesting that the responsibility is not 100% on the guy. Sure, there are cases where it's practically impossible for an outsider to say if it was actually a rape. Usually alcohol is involved. In order to solve the problem, that shouldn't be the default setting in anyone's mind, though. That is crooked and very male-centric view of how the world turns.

Someone mentioned that one should leave feelings out of discussion. What a formal way of expressing lack of human empathy.

I can list a dozen other crimes which also scar a person for life, your point being? Of course some crimes do more damage than others, that's why society punishes them harsher. But that doesn't change the obvious fact that you can lessen but not completely avoid the chance of being the victim of most crimes, be they petty or crushing.

Also, do you suggest that in cases of doubt, an accusation of rape should be believed until proof of innocence is provided? Do I really have to point out how this conflicts with basically every human rights treaty and civilized constitution that's currently in force anywhere on the planet?

[Dice_Box]

I am not trying to troll you, I did not mean to appear as though I was. I am just very uncomfortable with your views that a woman need shoulder any blame because she happened to drink too much. Your comment of locking a car with a laptop in it and comparing it to a woman who get herself drunk is... It does not sit right with me.

I am bowing out here. I think I can only do more harm than good if I post in here again. If I need to Mod I will post for that but otherwise I do not like this thread. It's a fucking dark place for us to visit and the worst part is, it's not totally unreasonable to ask us to reflect on these questions and seek out within ourselves our own answers. Fuck this world is a horrible place at times.

[Stan]

Allow me to very sincerely add that I have to agree 100% with that last sentence.

[Hopo]

I can list a dozen other crimes which also scar a person for life, your point being? Of course some crimes do more damage than others, that's why society punishes them harsher. But that doesn't change the obvious fact that you can lessen but not completely avoid the chance of being the victim of most crimes, be they petty or crushing.
My point being that what you wrote doesn't reflect that. I question the existing paradigm where the victim's responsibility most of the time comes up when there is a rape involved. When someone gets mugged or something like that, questioning the behaviour of the victim is hardly the first thing to do usually.

What you are saying about one lessening the chance of getting raped, it's all adding up to the fact that many (guys) think that it takes two to rape. Of course that is not literally your statement but it can easily be interpreted like that. It most certainly leads to that in the minds of the lesser thinkers.


Also, do you suggest that in cases of doubt, an accusation of rape should be believed until proof of innocence is provided? Do I really have to point out how this conflicts with basically every human rights treaty and civilized constitution that's currently in force anywhere on the planet?
I was writing about rapes, not false rape accusations. I think false accusations should be penalized the same way as rapes. I left that sentence out of my post because it didn't feel relevant. It's not a light accusation and naturally shouldn't be taken for granted. But according to your (former) profession you might be aware of the fact that there are numerous cases where the first thing the police does is question the rape. That is not how the law and justice system should work either. You question it if there's a reason to believe so, not by default. It would make more sense if every other type of suspected crime would get the same treatment but apparently they're not. And in that case, there would be even more thing wrong with the system if the initial response from law enforcement officers is always skeptical.

Maybe it's just the way you express yourself which doesn't reflect your true intentions but you sound really determined to actually put some responsibility on the rape victims. I get it that it's a thing in more narrow cases but my stance is that it shouldn't be THE thing here. It should be like the tiniest fraction of the discussion. Your stance seems to suggest that it will never be better that and we probaly can't do anything about it. I'm fine with the possibility of that being just ill communication. To draw parallels, nowadays in the US you should probably avoid going to campuses to protect yourself from getting mass murdered. To me that sounsd unbelievebly unreasonable but it's what you are basically stating. And it's technically correct but not something one should actually do.

yEverybody has the right to pass out from alcohol or wear clothes that scream "rape me" all overwithout getting raped. That's like the most common sense there is. With the help of some exaggeration, Your opinion as written in this thread can be reduced to the fact that someone wearing a shirt with a picture of crosshair is asking to get shot and shouldn't be completely vindicated of responsibility when a shooting occurs. It only works on an incredibly shallow and inhumane level. I mean, a robot could make such statements.

[Stan]

My point being that what you wrote doesn't reflect that. I question the existing paradigm where the victim's responsibility most of the time comes up when there is a rape involved. When someone gets mugged or something like that, questioning the behaviour of the victim is hardly the first thing to do usually.

What you are saying about one lessening the chance of getting raped, it's all adding up to the fact that many (guys) think that it takes two to rape. Of course that is not literally your statement but it can easily be interpreted like that. It most certainly leads to that in the minds of the lesser thinkers.


I was writing about rapes, not false rape accusations. I think false accusations should be penalized the same way as rapes. I left that sentence out of my post because it didn't feel relevant. It's not a light accusation and naturally shouldn't be taken for granted. But according to your (former) profession you might be aware of the fact that there are numerous cases where the first thing the police does is question the rape. That is not how the law and justice system should work either. You question it if there's a reason to believe so, not by default. It would make more sense if every other type of suspected crime would get the same treatment but apparently they're not. And in that case, there would be even more thing wrong with the system if the initial response from law enforcement officers is always skeptical.

Maybe it's just the way you express yourself which doesn't reflect your true intentions but you sound really determined to actually put some responsibility on the rape victims. I get it that it's a thing in more narrow cases but my stance is that it shouldn't be THE thing here. It should be like the tiniest fraction of the discussion. Your stance seems to suggest that it will never be better that and we probaly can't do anything about it. I'm fine with the possibility of that being just ill communication. To draw parallels, nowadays in the US you should probably avoid going to campuses to protect yourself from getting mass murdered. To me that sounsd unbelievebly unreasonable but it's what you are basically stating. And it's technically correct but not something one should actually do.

yEverybody has the right to pass out from alcohol or wear clothes that scream "rape me" all overwithout getting raped. That's like the most common sense there is. With the help of some exaggeration, Your opinion as written in this thread can be reduced to the fact that someone wearing a shirt with a picture of crosshair is asking to get shot and shouldn't be completely vindicated of responsibility when a shooting occurs. It only works on an incredibly shallow and inhumane level. I mean, a robot could make such statements.

Hopo:

1. I know this is not what you mean, but when you say in the first part that 'lesser thinkiers can interpret my post as blaming the victim', you do realize that you just insulted most participants of this thread, not? The only people anybody is responsible of are oneself and your minor children. Not others. That's as true for victims of crimes as it is for posters on a messageboard whose clear messages are misinterpreted.

2. I see where you are going with your analogy between mass shootings in campuses in the USA, and the avoidance of certain dangerous places in the rape argument. That analogy has its flaws. For starters, history has proven that such shootings can take place almost anywhere (guys have shot up their place of work too, or have done it on the streets), so it is much more difficult to develop a sensible pattern of avoidance for that one specific crime. On top of that, even if you restrict it to campuses, avoiding a place of education isn't the same as avoiding a shady gaming hall or lowlife bar. You need an education in life, gaming on the other hand is an optional hobby. Again, I'm not saying that a state of affairs where one avoids frequenting certain places is desirable, just that it will diminish your chances of becoming a victim.

3. Pity if you are emotionally unsettled by this exchange. You choose to be that though. More relevant: do you deny that avoiding observably dangerous situations can diminish your chance of being victimized on a personal level?

[warfordium]

i thought i was gonna come back to this thread after work and find insights. instead all i got was Stan.

thank god for the ignore list. and all continue to hail Richard Cheese.

[Hopo]

Hopo:

1. I know this is not what you mean, but when you say in the first part that 'lesser thinkiers can interpret my post as blaming the victim', you do realize that you just insulted most participants of this thread, not? The only people anybody is responsible of are oneself and your minor children. Not others. That's as true for victims of crimes as it is for posters on a messageboard whose clear messages are misinterpreted.
I didn't mean this conversation but the whole topic in general. I could have been more precise. Note, that I didn't refer to your "post" but thoughts.


2. I see where you are going with your analogy between mass shootings in campuses in the USA, and the avoidance of certain dangerous places in the rape argument. That analogy has its flaws. For starters, history has proven that such shootings can take place almost anywhere (guys have shot up their place of work too, or have done it on the streets), so it is much more difficult to develop a sensible pattern of avoidance for that one specific crime. On top of that, even if you restrict it to campuses, avoiding a place of education isn't the same as avoiding a shady gaming hall or lowlife bar. You need an education in life, gaming on the other hand is an optional hobby. Again, I'm not saying that a state of affairs where one avoids frequenting certain places is desirable, just that it will diminish your chances of becoming a victim. Rape and harrassment can take place literally anywhere as well. To me, something is very wrong if we need to take into account that we might get in the middle of a massacre or rape while living our daily lives. I don't like that I feel you want us to just accept that.


3. Pity if you are emotionally unsettled by this exchange. You choose to be that though. More relevant: do you deny that avoiding observably dangerous situations can diminish your chance of being victimized on a personal level?
I don't understand your pity-comment.
What I do deny is the notion that women should pretty much all the time live in the fear of being raped, which is pretty much where your stance is leading to. Don't get me wrong, but you are basically suggesting that women should just stay way from men because men are the reason rapes exist. Not some shady corridor or tight pants or red lipstick or even a tipsy night at local bar. Just men. Men are pretty much the only thing in common with these rapes.

[Stan]

Of course one should accept that all manner of bad stuff could happen to you, that's life. Just don't get paralyzed by fear. It's nonsensical to say that you cannot get hit by a car, stabbed by a doped up maniac, or (more likely) just suddenly drop dead because of a heart attack at any given moment. The answer to all that isn't to avoid living at all, it lies in doing what you want but avoiding the obvious situations that increase your chance of bad stuff, when doing so is humanely possible.

wrt staying away from men: not humanely possible, and quite nonsensical. The chance of rape (if we must focus specifically on this crime) is quite low at any given moment. But certain situations with certain men involved are more dangerous than others.

[UseLess]

It is a bit of a shame to see people arguing on different tracks, because of what seems to me misunderstanding/misinterpretations of what others (mainly Stan) write. I don't think people are denying that these events happen or have happened before. Nobody in this thread said it is acceptable. The discussion seems to have reached a point though, which is on one hand the point of view "we should change this" and on the other hand "I/we cannot change this". Some people here seem to be offended/aggitated when others write that these things happen in life and that there is not much one can do about that to change this. Sure, through raising awareness, proper education, social pressure and solid law enforcement a change might happen over time. However, it will not change by tomorrow, nor next year. With that in mind, is it in any way wrong or unrealistic to make women/men/whomever aware that the probability of rape exists and therefore it would be wise to minimize the chances? I believe all Stan is saying is that because we cannot change society in any foreseeable timeframe, it would be wise for potential victims to limit their chances of falling victim to a crime. It has nothing to do with victim shaming, just with being realistic and aware of the threats out there in the world. Is this fair or just? No. Should it be this way? No. Can something be done to change it? Perhaps, over time.

For me personally, it has been good to be made aware of this issue. I haven't encountered anything before but I might be more alert now. Will I do something when I see it? Perhaps, I hope I will but it is hard to say for sure when you have never been in a specific situation. Will I go out of my way to try and solve the issue? No, I will not. I'm not going to visit stores in the hope to find any wrong-doers so I can correct their behavior and save a damsel (or whatever) in distress. Does that make me a bad person? Maybe according to some. And I believe this is the main point of the discussion. Some will see this as an issue that should be changed and would like that the community actively helps in the change. Others might not be affected by it and/or are not encountering the issue and therefore may not be inclined to act as of now. I hope I will never encounter these issues and if I do that I will try to aid the victim. So until society changes definitively for the better, I think one cannot do much more besides being aware and alert.

[Megadeus]

It is a bit of a shame to see people arguing on different tracks, because of what seems to me misunderstanding/misinterpretations of what others (mainly Stan) write. I don't think people are denying that these events happen or have happened before. Nobody in this thread said it is acceptable. The discussion seems to have reached a point though, which is on one hand the point of view "we should change this" and on the other hand "I/we cannot change this". Some people here seem to be offended/aggitated when others write that these things happen in life and that there is not much one can do about that to change this. Sure, through raising awareness, proper education, social pressure and solid law enforcement a change might happen over time. However, it will not change by tomorrow, nor next year. With that in mind, is it in any way wrong or unrealistic to make women/men/whomever aware that the probability of rape exists and therefore it would be wise to minimize the chances? I believe all Stan is saying is that because we cannot change society in any foreseeable timeframe, it would be wise for potential victims to limit their chances of falling victim to a crime. It has nothing to do with victim shaming, just with being realistic and aware of the threats out there in the world. Is this fair or just? No. Should it be this way? No. Can something be done to change it? Perhaps, over time.

For me personally, it has been good to be made aware of this issue. I haven't encountered anything before but I might be more alert now. Will I do something when I see it? Perhaps, I hope I will but it is hard to say for sure when you have never been in a specific situation. Will I go out of my way to try and solve the issue? No, I will not. I'm not going to visit stores in the hope to find any wrong-doers so I can correct their behavior and save a damsel (or whatever) in distress. Does that make me a bad person? Maybe according to some. And I believe this is the main point of the discussion. Some will see this as an issue that should be changed and would like that the community actively helps in the change. Others might not be affected by it and/or are not encountering the issue and therefore may not be inclined to act as of now. I hope I will never encounter these issues and if I do that I will try to aid the victim. So until society changes definitively for the better, I think one cannot do much more besides being aware and alert.

This 100%.

[barcode]

Stan I'm going to let you in on a little secret: Every day women around the world take steps to prevent rape. We go to washrooms in groups, we watch each others' drinks and we tell each other who the dangerous men are. We go use public transit with friends and we avoid sketchy looking men on the street. We are constantly on high alert for the rape threat men pose.

The plan isn't bulletproof, of course, because women are still raped at a terrifying rate, and worse, the people we confide in largely don't believe us.

We don't need people like you posting bullshit how it's up to us to protect ourselves because we are. Tell your friends not to rape. Teach your sons not to rape. Believe that "no" means no. Believe that you are not entitled to a god damn thing from a woman just for being "nice."

This thread has very little to do with rape because as rational human beings we all agree that it's a horrible crime (some of us find it more horrible than others, it seems). This thread has to do with teaching people at the card stores and tournament halls to shut the fuck up around women. We're not going to tournaments as our dating scene.

[TsumiBand]

Stan I'm going to let you in on a little secret: Every day women around the world take steps to prevent rape. We go to washrooms in groups, we watch each others' drinks and we tell each other who the dangerous men are. We go use public transit with friends and we avoid sketchy looking men on the street. We are constantly on high alert for the rape threat men pose.

The plan isn't bulletproof, of course, because women are still raped at a terrifying rate, and worse, the people we confide in largely don't believe us.

We don't need people like you posting bullshit how it's up to us to protect ourselves because we are. Tell your friends not to rape. Teach your sons not to rape. Believe that "no" means no. Believe that you are not entitled to a god damn thing from a woman just for being "nice."

This thread has very little to do with rape because as rational human beings we all agree that it's a horrible crime (some of us find it more horrible than others, it seems). This thread has to do with teaching people at the card stores and tournament halls to shut the fuck up around women. We're not going to tournaments as our dating scene.

+1. The steps to "minimize the risk" are being taken at every occasion and any statement that reads as "it's totally the perp's fault, but... " is obviated at best and just shameful at its mean.

After reading page after page of Stan's reply, I think he means well but doesn't fully understand the implications of his speech.

[Ace/Homebrew]

Stan, I heard Belgium has an issue with terrorism. So if someone knows this and still chooses to live there, aren't they being an idiot?
I think we all agree terrorism is awful and isn't 100% preventable, but can't the children there be taught not to be terrorized? Don't they increase their chance of being in an attack by using public transportation and visiting areas with lots of people? If the people of Belgium don't constantly consider that they could be blown up by a terrorist, aren't they playing some roll in being attacked? It's too bad the world is a place with terrible people in it, until that changes everyone should just consider they could be killed by a terrorist at any second.

In the above example, the terrorists are the car, the people of Belgium are the laptop, and you are causing interesting conversation.

Dice.

[H]

But certain situations with certain men involved are more dangerous than others.

And that's the whole point. Going to a gaming stone to play a children's game of magical cards shouldn't be one of them. Of course you can say, "but it is!" and others will say "but it shouldn't be!" and that is the crux of this whole "argument." Why should women have to avoid things, while men get to act with antisocial behavior and we just toss up our hands and say, "well, nothing we can do about this." Again, why should anyone accept that a damn gaming shop is a dangerous place?


With that in mind, is it in any way wrong or unrealistic to make women/men/whomever aware that the probability of rape exists and therefore it would be wise to minimize the chances? I believe all Stan is saying is that because we cannot change society in any foreseeable timeframe, it would be wise for potential victims to limit their chances of falling victim to a crime. It has nothing to do with victim shaming, just with being realistic and aware of the threats out there in the world. Is this fair or just? No. Should it be this way? No. Can something be done to change it? Perhaps, over time.

And again, this idea, that minimization of being a victim is an onus on the potential victim, does essentially boil down to victim blaming. At the very heart of the matter, it's tacit acceptance that one, men just are sexual predators and there is nothing we can really do about it, two, that places where men are are thus naturally dangerous to women, and three, that women should simply cloister themselves in order to not be targeted. Why do men have more liberty than women here? Why should be simply accept that antisocial behavior should dictate what an entire gender is allowed to do?

A "boys will be boys" attitude is what has gotten us, culturally, to this point. It's not something that should realistically be accepted. There will always be defectives in our society. That doesn't mean that 51% of the world population should be deprived of liberty because we feel that's just how the world works. It starts now. It always starts right now. The future is born right now, with us. We can write it off as an immutable fact, or we can start to change the culture. Accepting it though, saying that victims of discrimination should just avoid situations where they might be discriminated against isn't an agent of change, it's a tacit acceptance of the status quo.

[UseLess]

I really fail to see how whatever I wrote could be interpreted as victim shaming. Either I have a wrong definition of the term, or my comment was interpreted wrong. If we assume that this issue was less known before this blog, and is now more known, why would it be wrong to say to people "be careful, the community may not be as friendly/open/safe as what it may appear to be"? And when you, as a vulnerable person are aware of the risks, would not want to minimize those as much as realistically possible? I would describe the above as concern for a potential victim rather than victim shaming. To me victim shaming would be saying: "you went into a shop that turned out to be a shady rape paradise, so it is your own fault you got raped!", which is complete bullshit. Also, this concern is in no way saying people should avoid risky situations because of the probability of illegal actions happening. There is nothing wrong with being aware of it though.

About the status quo, accepting that there is a problem is the first step to change it. But like I said, I do not perceive a problem in my local environment. Nobody is being raped at our weekly legacy tournaments as far as I know. I really do not understand how being realistic about the way the world is, is equal to accepting it and allowing all actions in it because whatever. That is not what I wrote, nor what anybody else in this thread wrote. I cannot fix what is not broken and my local environment is just fine. You can blame me for not trying to save the world, but that is just not part of my personal ambitions. Nevertheless, being realistic is not the same as thinking everything is fine the way it is. Please don't try to make me sound like that.

[Megadeus]

I don't see how being realistic about the world and understanding that equals victim blaming.

[dte]

I don't see how being realistic about the world and understanding that equals victim blaming.

Because it is quite close to the very definition of victim blaming if you equate "being realistic about the world" and "considering that some behaviors induces more risks".

Victim blaming is not a rare action that few old-fashioned bad people do, it is a very classic reaction. In most countries, when talking about rape, it is the default reaction. Repeating that the only guilty one is the rapist does not mean it is not victim blaming.
if you say:
"The victim has been traumatized and is only victim of this rapist, whom is convicted and should be condemned. (S)he is not to be pointed out, but only to be comforted. However kids, it would not have happen if (s)he hadn't passed out after being dead drunk."
This is victim blaming.