Worst matchup for each deck

[Barook]

I'm doing some research on the MTGO meta and I wonder which are THE WORST matchups for each deck, like nigh unwinnable bad. Be specific enough, not just like "Deck X loses to counters."

Feel free to contribute match-ups and/or other decks to the list:

RUG Delver

BUG Delver

UWR Delver

Goblins

Shardless BUG

Jund

Maverick

D&T - Elves

Miracles

Esperblade

Deathblade

4x Lands/Loam Control

12 Post

Burn

Belcher

Oops! All Spells!

Painter

Elves

Storm

Reanimator

Sneak & Show - D&T

Omnitell

[lordofthepit]

RUG Delver - Pox
BUG Delver - Merfolk or Burn?
UWR Delver - Lands
Goblins - Zoo
Shardless BUG - Elves or Merfolk
Jund - Burn or Omni/Sneak Attack (with Leyline)
Maverick - Belcher or Miracles
D&T - Belcher or Elves
Miracles - 12-Post
Esperblade - 12-Post
Deathblade - Jund?
4x Lands/Loam Control - High Tide
12-Post - Pox
Burn - Reanimator or any Show and Tell strategy with Leylines
Belcher - Reanimator
Oops! All Spells! - Reanimator
Painter - Burn or Goblins
Elves - Reanimator
Storm - Team America or Dragon Stompy
Reanimator - Miracles
Sneak & Show - Death and Taxes
Omnitell - UWR Delver (Edit: changed to Reanimator, after noticing someone else's response)
Dredge - B/W Helm Combo

The Delver strategies pretty much don't have an "unwinnable matchup" because the combination of tempo counters, mana denial, and a blistering fast clock will ensure you're at least in every game.

[Worldslayer]

Reanimator's worst matchup is probably BUG / Deathblade. Deathrite Shaman, counter magic, Thoughtseize and often Lilly main let them interact with you in every zone, and can lock you out from ever really being "in it" fairly often. Post board, many of them also have access to either Scavenging Ooze, Surgical Extraction, or both. Miracles probably was the deck's worst matchup, but then they cut their best card in RIP from the main for some reason and went down to like, two on the board. In the past year, Miracles has gotten much easier for reanimator pilots that know the matchup, so BUGx gets my vote for current nemesis, with Maverick close behind.

[Barook]

Yeah, I forgot about Belcher for D&T. That's an abyssal match-up for D&T as well.

Doesn't Shardless really struggle against Painter with all those moon effects, too?

[Lejay]

RUG Delver -> Pox ?
BUG Delver -> Elves !
UWR Delver -> ?
Goblins -> Oops all spells - If good combo/gravehate sideboard then it's probably a Pfire deck.
Shardless BUG -> Burn !
Jund -> ?
Maverick -> ?
D&T -> Elves
Miracles -> Cloudpost !
Esperblade -> Cloudpost !
Deathblade -> ?
4x Lands/Loam Control -> Omnitell
12-Post -> Pox ?
Burn -> Reanimator
Belcher -> Reanimator
Oops! All Spells! -> BUG Delver or reanimator
Painter -> Omnitell !
Elves -> Reanimator or some Pfire control
Storm -> MUD
Reanimator -> BUG Tempo ?
Sneak & Show -> Death and taxes !
Omnitell -> Reanimator !
Dredge -> Miracles helm ?

[Barook]

Reanimator's worst matchup is probably BUG / Deathblade. Deathrite Shaman, counter magic, Thoughtseize and often Lilly main let them interact with you in every zone, and can lock you out from ever really being "in it" fairly often. Post board, many of them also have access to either Scavenging Ooze, Surgical Extraction, or both. Miracles probably was the deck's worst matchup, but then they cut their best card in RIP from the main for some reason and went down to like, two on the board. In the past year, Miracles has gotten much easier for reanimator pilots that know the matchup, so BUGx gets my vote for current nemesis, with Maverick close behind.
Maveric due to DRS/Ooze? I don't know, they normally switch to the S&T plan post-board. D&T also has decent game against Reanimator.

Is it the Monogreen or the UG variant that does well versus various control decks like Miracles or doesn't it really matter that much?

[TheArchitect]

RUG Delver - Dredge, Nic Fit, 4c Loam, maybe pox? With the "typical" SB, Id vote Dredge.

BUG Delver - Burn

UWR Delver - ???

Goblins - Deathblade, Zoo, Reanimtor, Belcher/Allspells. They are all terrible.

Shardless BUG - Painter or Burn or S&T. Probably Burn being the worse.

Jund - Burn, Painter or S&T. S&T probably the worst.

Maverick - Miracles or Belcher

D&T - Elves or Jund

Miracles - 12 Post, then Goblins

Esperblade - 12 Post

Deathblade - Burn. Then, Shardless BUG or Jund.

4x Lands/Loam Control - ??? High Tide makes a lot of sense to me. I also know this MU always feels super easy with Miracles.

12 Post - ??? Omnitell, or pox maybe? Depending on the build/SB, reanimtor or storm might be tough too

Burn - Belcher/All spells/Storm/Reanimator

Belcher - ??? Not sure what the actual WORST matchup is. Maybe Team America? Daze, discard, FoW, AND null rod/pneedle AND golgari charm.

Oops! All Spells! - Miracles or anything that runs leyline of the void

Painter - Burn???

Elves - Esperblade, Jund or Reanimator

Storm - MUD, Miracles, Team America

Reanimator - Miracles

Sneak & Show - D&T or Reanimator

Omnitell - ??? This always feels really easy with Miracles

High Tide - ??? Again, this always feels really easy with Miracles

Dredge - Miracles or Reanimator

Affinity - Nic Fit or DeedStill

Nic Fit - Show and Tell, 12 Post or MUD

Merfolk - Goblins

MUD - ???

[J-Funk]

12 Post hates playing against storm. More than half of the sideboard is designed to fight this matchup.

[KobeBryan]

I think BUG delver is definitely merfolk or elves

[btm10]

RUG Delver - Dredge or Pox, but I suspect that Pox is just too slow for it to be that bad

BUG Delver - Merfolk or Burn

UWR Delver - I've never played this deck, and only played against it with Shardless BUG and BUG Control. It sure feels lopsided from Shardless's perspective.

Goblins - Belcher or Oops! All Spells!

Shardless BUG - Without MD Deluge, Painter or D&T. With Deluge, Burn or Painter

Jund - Lands?

Maverick - Miracles or Glass Cannon combo (Belcher, Oops...)

D&T - Elves

Miracles - 12-Post

Esperblade - 12-Post

Deathblade - Probably Shardless BUG or Jund, though I can't imagine Pox or RUG Delver is particularly good.

4x Lands/Loam Control - High Tide or Miracles

12 Post - RUG Delver or Storm

Burn - Fast combo

Belcher - BUG Delver

Oops! All Spells! - BUG Delver

Painter - Burn? Enchantress has a pretty good matchup here, too.

Elves - Miracles

Storm - BUG Delver, MUD

Reanimator - Miracles

Sneak & Show - D&T

Omnitell - MUD, BUG Delver, Miracles

BUG Control - Loam Pox

Enchantress - Omnitell

[HSCK]

I think you play Deathblade to beat RUG Delver honestly. Isn't that the point of any blade deck?

[jamis]

MUD - ???
Some form of Delver. Probably BUG, but they're all pretty rough.

[lordofthepit]

MUD - ???

I think Maverick-style decks are rough for MUD. They have plenty of Qasali Pridemage effects, relevant hatebears, reasonable ramp, Wastelands, and can easily get under Ensnaring Bridge with something like Noble Hierarch.

[btm10]

I think you play Deathblade to beat RUG Delver honestly. Isn't that the point of any blade deck?

I could easily be wrong. I don't generally play either Blade or RUG, but attacking Deathblade's mana just seems so good.

[TheArchitect]

I think Maverick-style decks are rough for MUD. They have plenty of Qasali Pridemage effects, relevant hatebears, reasonable ramp, Wastelands, and can easily get under Ensnaring Bridge with something like Noble Hierarch.

I forgot about Maverick. Ya, that might be a tough one for MUD. Delver isn't so bad. Infact, MUD is probably even favored if it doesn't lose to its own draws. Basically ever card they cast is a must answer for delver and sticking a wurmcoil ends the game.

Deathblade is definitely favored over RUG. And a good elves player with a recent list vs a good miracles with a recent list, its almost 50/50. Miracles is probably still favored, but its very slight. Elves has adapted a lot lately to beat that deck. It has a much harder time with stuff cheap effective removal like stp and ZP followed up by Jitte and backed up with counters. I agree with your other statements though, btm.

[trollking21]

I could easily be wrong. I don't generally play either Blade or RUG, but attacking Deathblade's mana just seems so good.

I play a lot of RUG and if you play against the normal variant of death blade (with no basics) I would call the match up even. You sometimes waste stifle then bolt deathrite and win other times they go first and they play deathrite on turn 1 and win off the fact you never get to functionally deny mana.
If they play basics you almost can't win

[Zombie]

Elves -> Reanimator or some Pfire control

Reanimator is a good suggestion, but what do you mean by Pfire control? Miracles, Jund? Jund is fine.


Elves - Esperblade, Jund or Reanimator

Esperblade and Jund shouldn't be in there.


For my votes:

Elves - Reanimator, LED Dredge. Miracles, Storm, UWR Delver are all unfavourable but can be fought. Those two are just abysmal though, LED Dredge especially. Everything Elves does is just too slow and/or too small. Against reanimator stuff is just slow but at least your gravehate works.

Storm - Reanimator. Faster combo deck with Force = sad times.

[janluis1]

For Uwr delver the worst matchup is Pox and not Lands. Lands is still winnable with a very fast start

Reanimator worst matchup is not Miracles is UWR delver.

[Echelon]

Manaless Dredge - G2 & G3 vs. anything with a good SB

[Lejay]

Reanimator is a good suggestion, but what do you mean by Pfire control? Miracles, Jund? Jund is fine.

Pfire control doesn't mean a punishing fire deck OR a control deck. It means a control deck playing punishing fire. Not really established archetypes but I have seen several times grixis or rug pfire control decklists.
Nic fit decks with Pfire could also enter that category depending on the decklist.

[TheArchitect]

Zombie might have been referring to the fact that on rare occasion miracles lists run punishing fire. I don't think any have top'd anything big lately, but they do well at smaller events occasionally.

[btm10]

I forgot about Maverick. Ya, that might be a tough one for MUD. Delver isn't so bad. Infact, MUD is probably even favored if it doesn't lose to its own draws. Basically ever card they cast is a must answer for delver and sticking a wurmcoil ends the game.

Deathblade is definitely favored over RUG. And a good elves player with a recent list vs a good miracles with a recent list, its almost 50/50. Miracles is probably still favored, but its very slight. Elves has adapted a lot lately to beat that deck. It has a much harder time with stuff cheap effective removal like stp and ZP followed up by Jitte and backed up with counters. I agree with your other statements though, btm.

It's interesting to hear that Miracles/Elves isn't that lopsided - it makes sense when you put it this way. One thing I'm sort of surprised by is with so many people pointing out that MUD has a number of good matchups (basically everything aside from BUG variants and Elves seems fairly winnable) that the deck isn't played more. Its 12-post matchup is pretty bad (I think?) but there aren't many people going full 12-post.


I play a lot of RUG and if you play against the normal variant of death blade (with no basics) I would call the match up even. You sometimes waste stifle then bolt deathrite and win other times they go first and they play deathrite on turn 1 and win off the fact you never get to functionally deny mana.
If they play basics you almost can't win

That makes sense - I'm very inexperienced with RUG as I said before, and I'll admit to a somewhat irrational anti-Stoneforge bias so I probably underrate any deck running it matchups.

[Zombie]

Pfire control doesn't mean a punishing fire deck OR a control deck. It means a control deck playing punishing fire. Not really established archetypes but I have seen several times grixis or rug pfire control decklists.
Nic fit decks with Pfire could also enter that category depending on the decklist.

Do you have any example lists to show?

My typical experience with PFire is that it's too slow, but if it's in a heavy blue control shell it will be trouble. Depends heavily on the build, though - many recent Miracles/midrange adaptations should do good work in those matchups too.

[Worldslayer]

Maveric due to DRS/Ooze? I don't know, they normally switch to the S&T plan post-board. D&T also has decent game against Reanimator.


Maverick due to drs abs ooze attacking your graveyard, Thalia attacking your ability to dig and counter, wasteland constraining your mana, revoker turning off griselbrand's draw, teeg removing your force of wills, knight of the reliquary removing your ability to show and tell (since they just go find karakas), cavern removing your ability to really interact, pride made removing your ability to pithing needle, mind censor attacking your ability to entomb and fetch... The list goes on. Most builds of maverick are just awful for us. Thinks like massacre help, but at the end of the day it's KotR into Karakas and Maze that really just does it. Maverick seems like a bye on paper and a nightmare in practice.

DnT is kind of the reverse since the inception of Sire of Insanity (and more recently for me, Admonition Angel in the "non legendary answer to permanents" slot), since they A) have less actual "karakas" in their deck then Maverick since they dont have KotR and B) have generic beater guys that can't fight reanimator monsters where Maverick has "even more god damn hate bears". I actively consider DnT favorable anymore after testing with a local DnT player and running against it weekly at the LGS.

I'll stop hogging the thread now, but honestly guys, Miracles isn't the death match it was for us. Bugx, uwr, maverick are all much harder since miracles moved off of being a Rip combo /control deck (which I still don't understand at all).

[Julian23]

Do you have any example lists to show?

My typical experience with PFire is that it's too slow, but if it's in a heavy blue control shell it will be trouble. Depends heavily on the build, though - many recent Miracles/midrange adaptations should do good work in those matchups too.

I unfortunately played this exact kind of deck at the most recent Bazaar of Moxen. As you mentioned, the Punishing Fires engine is way too slow to keep up with Elves on its own. This guy however was running it in a Grixis shell with Toxic Deluge to control the early assault and then deny any futre advancements with PFire. It was a horrible deck to play against. I even discarded his Toxic Deluge but he Brainstormed right into the next one.

[Admiral_Arzar]

Lands - Imperial Painter, Burn, fast combo

While these matchups are theoretically winnable (and I have beaten Burn before) they are extremely bad. Painter is probably the worst matchup for Cloudpost as well. Some other matchups I've noticed are REALLY bad, through playing one side and/or the other:

BUG Delver - Elves, Lands

Miracles - Punishing Jund (I've only lost this matchup once in tournament play as Jund, and that was due to extremely bad play on my part)

Deathblade - Nic Fit

RUG Delver (or really any Delver deck) - Jund Depths/Pox

Although nobody plays it anymore, the Gate is also an awful matchup for Delver decks.

[Barook]

I'm probably updating the OP post when a consensus is found on certain match-ups.

From what I've gathered so far:

RUG Delver - Pox? Dredge?

BUG Delver - Merfolk? Burn? Elves?

UWR Delver - Lands?

Goblins - Zoo??? Oops, All Spells?

Shardless BUG - Burn

Jund - Burn, Omni/Sneak Attack (with Leyline)

Maverick - Belcher, Oops, then Miracles

D&T - Belcher, Oops, Elves

Miracles - 12-Post

Esperblade - 12-Post

Deathblade - Jund? Shardless BUG? Jund? Burn

4x Lands/Loam Control - High Tide? Miracles? Other fast, spell-based combo? Burn? Painter?

12-Post - Pox? RUG Delver?? Storm?

Burn - Reanimator or any Show and Tell strategy with Leylines

Belcher - Reanimator

Oops! All Spells! - Reanimator

Painter - Burn, Goblins? Omnitell? Cloudpost?

Elves - Reanimator

Storm - Team America, Dragon Stompy, MUD?

Reanimator - Miracles? Maverick (black splash)? D&T?

Sneak & Show - Death and Taxes

Omnitell - Reanimator

Dredge - anything with decent GY hate, maybe D&T due to Thalia blocking their spells?

Edit: Dredge removed from the Elves matchup

[Julian23]

I heavily oppose Dredge qualifying as one of the worst matchups for Elves. Honestly, it's pretty much 50:50, probably slightly in favour of Dredge if at all.

[Parcher]

I heavily oppose Dredge qualifying as one of the worst matchups for Elves. Honestly, it's pretty much 50:50, probably slightly in favour of Dredge if at all.

Agreed. Slight for Dredge, mitigated by Dredge's frequent mulligans makes it about even. I assume we're not including sideboards, or picking any match involving Dredge is pointless. Any deck has a solid shot. If we are, then Dredge running Firestorm becomes a strong favorite over Elves since they bring at most an Ooze from the SB.

Disregarding sideboards, Dredge's worst matchup is Reanimator. Its best is Pox. Since for some reason that is regarded as a deck for these purposes.

[Michael Keller]

Although nobody plays it anymore, the Gate is also an awful matchup for Delver decks.

I'm looking to unleash it once again in two weeks at the Eternal Extravaganza.

Delver.meta needs a wake up call, and you're right: it's a beautiful matchup.

[Zombie]

I heavily oppose Dredge qualifying as one of the worst matchups for Elves. Honestly, it's pretty much 50:50, probably slightly in favour of Dredge if at all.

Manaless, I can totally buy it. But LED Dredge I just can't make myself to. They're way faster and most of our hate is just bad unless Ooze can start a Cradle-fueled rampage.

[(nameless one)]

MUD's worst matchup is the mulligan.

Also, any Wasteland+Vial deck. B/G/x midrange decks can get annoying too. Once you get Lilliana going, the MUD player is done for. Chalice and 3sphere can't stop Lilliana and Abrupt Decay hits Chalice all day. The only saving grace MUD has are Wurmcoil Engines but that's about it. Blue splash can counter it and white splash can plow it.

[oarsman]

Miracles: 12 post, goblins?


Barook, you can go ahead and erase goblins and then lock that one in. Going further, I think Miracles vs 12 post is probably among the most lopsided of all the matchups you are listing.

[Bertrand Hustle]

Painter vs Enchantress is literally unwinnable for Painter.

[lordofthepit]

Painter vs Enchantress is literally unwinnable for Painter.

I must be missing something: why is this the case?

[Zombie]

I must be missing something: why is this the case?

Don't know jack about the matchup, but:
Not natively blue => 6-8 blanks maindeck
Emrakul => goodbye combo
Wild Growth/Utopia Sprawl => Goodbye Moon effects.
You're monored, forget about removing their stuff.

Basically, they just natively blank huge swaths of the deck so you're struggling to find action. This gives them all the time in the world to resolve things like Sigil of the Empty Throne, RIP-Helm and Words of War that you just can't do shit about.

[Phelix]

lands vs burn isnt that bad really. i think im like 10-2 in the matchup or something.

I guess new burn is better some. but when we can croprotate into chasm and play vs blood moon as the only dangerous card, its not that horrible.

Omnitell is the worst matchup.

[Barook]

Miracles: 12 post, goblins?


Barook, you can go ahead and erase goblins and then lock that one in. Going further, I think Miracles vs 12 post is probably among the most lopsided of all the matchups you are listing.
Done

Could you go a bit into detail why this match is so bad for Miracles? And I assume it's the UG version that gives it the most trouble. How does the MonoG variant perform vs Miracles?

[Sisyphos]

Could you go a bit into detail why this match is so bad for Miracles? And I assume it's the UG version that gives it the most trouble. How does the MonoG variant perform vs Miracles?

Miracles has basically no reasonable way to interact with the strategy of ramping up to 15 Mana + Karakas and hardcasting Emrakul. The only cards in a Miracle deck that 12Post cares about are Blood Moon and a fast Entreat, but both can be handled by 12Post. Even in my very limited experience with 12Post (I'm in no way claiming to be a good pilot of the deck), I don't think I ever lost a game to Miracles.

[btm10]

I must be missing something: why is this the case?

Zombie hit most of the main points, but as an Enchantress pilot, I'll add a few more. First is that Solitary Confinement and Leyline of Sanctity make their controller untargetable, so the Painter player can't combo you without removing them. I still run 2-3 copies of Sterling Grove and setting up double Grove is trivial when you're only facing down a few counters because the answer, even with Painter's Servant set to blue, becomes "run your enchantments into their countermagic, then blow them out with Replenish". While most builds don't run it anymore, but Words of War kills every creature in Painter (to be fair, WoW kills most creatures when put into Enchantress) pretty easily, and Enchantress doesn't care about Ensnaring Bridge or Blood Moon.

The Painter player on some kind of crazy nut draw can probably take a game by getting turn 1 Painter's Servant followed by REB/Pyroblast/Jaya Ballard-ing the Enchantress player's lands, but that's an extreme corner case.

[fetzonk]

I think the worst Matchup for UWR Delver is PAINTER.

Blood Moon effects are nearly a lockout.
Even without Painter the Elemental/Pyroblasts hit most of the deck

[cab0747]

I would add Belcher to one of Painters worst matchups. You have to hope you have a T2 combo and that they are on the EtW plan if they are on the play.

Blahhhhhhhhh

[Barsoom]

I can speak about the decks i own/play, MUD and OmniTell.

About MUD (the Post version that i play and the most popular build right now), the matchup i like more to face is Storm (ANT/TES); 4x Chalice of the Void, 4x Trinisphere, 4x Lodestone Golem main, 4x Phyrexian Revoker from the sideboard. This matchups are in my experience at least 70/30 in MUD favor. So Storm worst matchup imho is MUD.

MUD worst matchups in my experience are all kinds of Delver decks with Wasteland+Daze+fast pressure and i had bad experiences with Goblins too; it's not that you auto lose, it's that without Ancient Tomb -> Chalice of the Void at 1 on the play the games are hard to win. So i cannot name a deck in particular, imho MUD got no 70/30 or 60/40 matchups, when it loses most of the time it loses to itself.

About OmniTell, i think that all OmniTell players will agree that Reanimator is really really bad; again MUD is really bad too but with the fact that's an inconsistent deck you can still win at times; Reanimator is fast and consistent, probably a 70/30 matchup.

The best matchup for OmniTell imho, and again i think OmniTell players will agree, is Lands. 12 Post is really good too, but Lands is better.

I own a Manaless Dredge deck too but i don't have many games with the deck to be really sure of matchups so i'll pass on it.

[Richard Cheese]

One thing I'm sort of surprised by is with so many people pointing out that MUD has a number of good matchups (basically everything aside from BUG variants and Elves seems fairly winnable) that the deck isn't played more. Its 12-post matchup is pretty bad (I think?) but there aren't many people going full 12-post.

MUD's worst matchup is itself. It's a really good deck, but basically suffers from the Stax problem of inconsistent draws/bad mulligans. Also without an early Trinisphere or Chalice they can be really susceptible to spot removal + Wasteland.

[4thHorsemanOfSleaze]

Omnitell's worst match up is definitely reanimator. The only real saving grace is defense grid and hope/praying they don't have the Iona.

Delver can't beat control lands. And I mean it's a 98/2 match up in lands favor. The only reason they get the 2% is because some games lands will dredge half it's deck and still not find PFire.

Lands worst match up is easily OmniTell. Their only hope is to port you into oblivion. And that usually doesn't work

Miracles straight up can't beat 12 post.

12 post straight up can't beat OmniTell

Dredge doesn't lose to decks, it loses to cards. The best one being ravenous trap.

Storm has issues against any deck that backs up pressure with disruption

[Dosferra]

4-Color Loam - OmniTell and High Tide first and foremost. Burn and Painter are beatable but unfavored.

So it's about the same as it is for Lands, decks with loads of basics, few creatures and nonbasic land hate.

OmniTell and High Tide: What little interaction we have usually gets countered.
Burn: We have a pretty slow clock and, unlike Lands, can't Crop Rotate into Glacial Chasm. A early Chalice for 1 gives us a good chance though.
Painter: Blood Moon.

[(nameless one)]

I find that with MUD vs Delver.dec, it's a coinflip. As a MUD player, sometimes you resolve Chalice/Trinisphere and lock the Delver player out of the game. Sometimes, you resolve that early Wurmcoil and you can go to town with it. Sometime they open with a turn one Delver with permission backup.

[Bertrand Hustle]

I must be missing something: why is this the case?

In addition to what others have been mentioning, Stony Silence is not an uncommon SB tech, the deck generally runs Oblivion Ring as at least a one of MB, sometimes you see Seal of Cleansing or Seal of Primordium, which all hit pretty much every piece of the Painter combo. While it is rogue, Nevermore and Runed Halo also see play and do not make the match easy. Any nonbasic that newer Enchantress lists net them Red, which helps the Words of War, Banefire or other burn strategy that the deck would usually have to Utopia Sprawl. Taiga or Mountain for. Painter either helps Enchantress too much or buys straight into the gameplan. Also, note how Grindstone uses the wording target, which is very difficult to do against Enchantress seeing as there are multiple Solitary Confinement style effects as well as the oblig Leyline of Sanctity. Painter also has difficulty interacting with the core of the engine, Argothian Enchantress. Hope this helps.

[autonom]

Can someone explain why Esperblade has a hard time beating 12 post? I would think that a Batterskull can win before 12 post get their legendary creatures into play.

[ironclad8690]

Can someone explain why Esperblade has a hard time beating 12 post? I would think that a Batterskull can win before 12 post get their legendry creatures into play.

Batterskull attacks turn 4 at earliest. 12 post only really needs 6 turns to set up and kill, and it is extremely efficient at doing so. Delver gets to run daze as well which is huge.

[theBloody]

Not to mention how hard is to race Glimmerpost chains.

[LarsLeif]

Shardless BUG: Burn and Painter are terrible to face, they are just too fast and hard to interact with. T1 Moon is a thing.

[apple713]

i think this is a great idea and something i would have liked to collect data on. I think you should separate bad matchups from not winnable. The two are very different. Death and taxes may be the worst matchup for sneak and show but by no means is it not winnable. Sneak and show will lose to itself more than anything, meaning it durdles and loses to any kind of unanswered threat... this is probably true of most combo decks, but there should probably be a clear distinction of the two.

otherwise i wish you luck because there are lots of opinions posted that may or may not be accurate. it would be nice if the players who contribute most in each decks respective threads would post here on exactly what decks they specialize in to more easily get the data you want. You might accomplish this by sending a few PM's. Its unreasonable for 1 person to know all of the best/worst match ups for every deck in the meta.

[NilsH]

RUG Delver - Pox and The Gate
BUG Delver - Merfolk
Shardless BUG - Burn
D&T - Elves
Miracles - 12post/TurboEldrazi
4x Lands/Loam Control - All SnT variants
12 Post - Pox
Burn - Miracles (or something with Counterbalance)
Belcher - RUG Delver and BUG Delver
Painter - Zoo
Elves - Miracles
Storm - BUG Delver
Sneak & Show - D&T

[autonom]

I think this is an awesome thread.

Would you guys like to write one sentence per matchup explaining what about the decks makes the matchup great for one deck and terribad for the other? I think that would be this thread even more interesting and educational.

[Will_L]

Burn is one of the worst match ups for Imperial Painter.

Your moons do nothing, you are a creature based combo deck and they are generally a turn 4-5 combo deck that's all removal.

If the Burn pilot is at least OK they will always leave a bolt up to kill your Painter and so much of the deck is dead against Burn.

Plus, you have to play against, likely, 2-3 Smash to Smithereens g2/g3...

[Maagler]

12 post's worst matchup is probably BUG delver. It is hard to deal with hand disruption, land disruption, and counterspells that are backed by a fast clock.

Pox is actually a relatively easy match for the deck, despite the land destruction, their clock is slow and you can actually lock them out of the game with 2 needles, 1 on lilli and the other on factory. Also It is hard for them to deal with a resolved top, when you can float show and tell and primetime on top of the deck.

[apple713]

I think this is an awesome thread.

Would you guys like to write one sentence per matchup explaining what about the decks makes the matchup great for one deck and terribad for the other? I think that would be this thread even more interesting and educational.

I agree this would be helpful. Many people have given explanations but the OP needs to weigh them against each other and add them to the OP.


Also, I believe many of the answers you seek can be found in the respective decks OP about them. I know for the decks I follow like Sneak and show, the OP JPA has spent considerable amount of time outlining ALL relevant information.


S&T thread - with explanations

Death and Taxes 35:65 - followed by an explanation why.


Team america thread - with explanations

Elves Unfavored
EsperBlade Even or Unfavored
Death and Taxes Unfavored
Shardless BUG Unfavorable

Imperial Painter thread

Inherent bad matchups for iPainter include - with further analysis
Any Eldrazi deck
Zoo
Maverick
Jund
Aggro Loam
Burn
Charbelcher and other fast combo not vulnerable to Moon effects

Yeah i know its kind of a pain to sift through that information but if you do 1 thread a day you'll close in on it faster than you realize.


I'd like to hear from the following people on their decks as i know they play them extensively and have tested all the in's and outs.


Miracles - Dzra / Einherjer
12 Post - Sauce
Sneak & Show - JPA / Jaco (this info can be found on the thread)
Omnitell - Lejay
Rock - Sdematt
High Tide - Di / Feline

[lordofthepit]

Burn - Miracles (or something with Counterbalance)

Having played on both sides of the matchup and lost far too many win-and-ins to Burn on Miracles, I assure you that this is not Burn's worst matchup (that would be Reanimator or Omnitell, the latter of which runs Leylines in its 75). I'm not even convinced it's unfavorable.

[TheKingslayer]

Having played on both sides of the matchup and lost far too many win-and-ins to Burn on Miracles, I assure you that this is not Burn's worst matchup (that would be Reanimator or Omnitell, the latter of which runs Leylines in its 75). I'm not even convinced it's unfavorable.

NIC Fit is the absolute worst matchup for RUG. The matchup is probably 30/70. Cabal therapy for stifle, flashback, sacrifice explorer, get basics, abrupt decay delver, deed goose, proceed to play Standard circa 2012. Sad day.

[ahg113]

For the tired and down trodden-

Dega (W/B/R) vs. shardless BUG and now U/R sligh - both due to the ability to instantly restock hands and negate the grind effect of land & hand disruption. Either have removal for creatures, or can trade profitably, along with own hand disruption/counterspells. Not unwinnable match-ups, but not as close to 50/50 as would like.

[EpicLevelCommoner]

Nic Fit has a few axes on which matchups can be favorable or not: ability to trigger Veteran Explorer, ability to abuse its effect more, ability to ignore Deed, Decay, and other removal, etc.

Id say the worst fair matchup is probably Miracles and the worst unfair matchup is Reanimator or Sneak and Show.

[Nuke is Good]

From the decks I've played:

Jund- Burn, Reanimator, SnT, Storm
Reanimator- DnT to infinity
Burn- Reanimator
Stax-Almost every deck except Miracles

[poxy14]

i played RUG for years, i hate playing vs pox (though winnable), nicfit variants, dredge.. and of course i hate MUD!

[TheArchitect]

A lot of people are saying Miracles is elves worst matchup. As a miracles player, I do not think this could be the case. Unless your terrible with elves (which a lot of people are) or you are playing some outdated/budget version, the matchup is at best 55% in miracles favor. Reanimator, esper or UWR stoneblade are far tougher for elves in my experience.


NIC Fit is the absolute worst matchup for RUG. The matchup is probably 30/70. Cabal therapy for stifle, flashback, sacrifice explorer, get basics, abrupt decay delver, deed goose, proceed to play Standard circa 2012. Sad day.

I played Nic Fit for over a year back in the time of the holy trinity (Esper, Mav, RUG). Even with RUG being 10-20% of the meta, I don't think I lost to it once in a tournament setting. Stifle is basically the only card in their entire deck that does anything relevant in the matchup. The RUG player would have a better chance of winning the matchup with a sealed deck. I still think RUG is still a solid deck though, and underestimated these days.

[Parcher]

Looking through this thread, basically every deck has at least one player claiming that Reanimator is its worst matchup. Now, obviously this isn't accurate, as the deck's results don't prove this out. Is it because Reanimator's wins are such one-sided blowouts, where when they can't put anything together and lose, it's a completely forgettable game? Is it lack of proper pilots? Placement in the metagame? There has to be some reason eveyone claims it is their "worst", and yet it barely places.

[EpicLevelCommoner]

Double Post ... needs to be deleted when I am not on a phone.

[EpicLevelCommoner]

Looking through this thread, basically every deck has at least one player claiming that Reanimator is its worst matchup. Now, obviously this isn't accurate, as the deck's results don't prove this out. Is it because Reanimator's wins are such one-sided blowouts, where when they can't put anything together and lose, it's a completely forgettable game? Is it lack of proper pilots? Placement in the metagame? There has to be some reason eveyone claims it is their "worst", and yet it barely places.

The reason I suggest Nic Fit has trouble with Reanimator is mostly because of Nic Fit's lack of white removal (C.Judgment or StP) and dependence on Cabal Therapy for disruption any combo deck with big fatties as the primary wincon and nonpermanents as the main method to cheat those into play is hell for us. This includes Reanimator, Sneak and Show, Omnitell, Tin Fins, Hypergenesis, fringe Eureka decks, etc. Out of these, Reanimator deserves notoriety simply because not only do they bring in new reanimation targets, they also have the opportunity to transform into a partial Show and Tell deck, which means every Therapy call counts if we have any chance of surviving even g2.

Sneak and Show, on the other hand, is one of the few decks with both Emrakul and Griselbrand. Its also one of two that can give them both haste. Out of those two, Sneak and Show doesnt need to win when it swings, hence sneaky spaghetti monsters and bargainbrands can easily change the flow of the game if caught unprepared.

In a best vs best case scenario, hypergen or tin fins is certainly scarier. Problem is that both of those decks need to bide their time before they can go off consistently. Both Reanimator and Sneak and Show are more consistent and have the potential to be more versatile.

[Ace/Homebrew]

I'm doing some research on the MTGO meta and I wonder which are THE WORST matchups for each deck, like nigh unwinnable bad.
Barook, are you going to update your OP with all the feedback you received?

[Asthereal]

Looking through this thread, basically every deck has at least one player claiming that Reanimator is its worst matchup. Now, obviously this isn't accurate, as the deck's results don't prove this out. Is it because Reanimator's wins are such one-sided blowouts, where when they can't put anything together and lose, it's a completely forgettable game? Is it lack of proper pilots? Placement in the metagame? There has to be some reason eveyone claims it is their "worst", and yet it barely places.
Reanimator has serious issues beating two of the more popular decks in the meta: BUG Delver and Miracles. This keeps Reanimator out of most top-8's, I think. Who has another theory?

[iamajellydonut]

Reanimator has serious issues beating two of the more popular decks in the meta: BUG Delver and Miracles. This keeps Reanimator out of most top-8's, I think. Who has another theory?

His post was largely a rhetorical question.

[maharis]

For the tired and down trodden-

Dega (W/B/R) vs. shardless BUG and now U/R sligh - both due to the ability to instantly restock hands and negate the grind effect of land & hand disruption. Either have removal for creatures, or can trade profitably, along with own hand disruption/counterspells. Not unwinnable match-ups, but not as close to 50/50 as would like.

I don't think either of these are as bad as Miracles. You can win a race with either of those decks or waste Shardless out of the game. Countertop and Terminus are just miserable for the Dega player though. Your only real hope to beat miracles is that they can't get basics online and you can keep them off white with Wasteland.

In fact, I would add that while Dega vs. Miracles is hopelessly lopsided, the reverse is true when you replace red with green. Abrupt Decay, Sylvan Library, Gaddock Teeg, Krosan Grip all make life miserable for Miracles players. It's honestly weird for me when I play the matchup now that I've switched to Junk from Dega and they can't do anything they want. Before, it was just me watching them set up Countertop, counter all my spells for free and then Terminus my meager board and then Entreat for a dozen. I would definitely be comfortable saying Junk is quite favored against Miracles, but it might not be as bad as 12post or Goblins.

[ahg113]

Point- counterpoint. With a lot of discard, and very early threats, Miracles can be beaten. I'd much rather face the U/W durdle deck, rather than another grindy match-up that can restock, effectively nulling the efforts of attrition Dega plays. There's also enough shuffle effects, that a Terminus doesn't abandon your critters on the bottom. Plus there's hate for Top, Jace in Revoker, SotL for can-trips, and Mom for STP. So much of their game is the soft-lock, and that's easier to beat.

[Parcher]

His post was largely a rhetorical question.

Incorrect. I, for one, claimed Reanimator was probably Dredge's worst matchup. The reason for this is that Dredge has no countermagic to stop a turn 1-2 Elesh Norn, and virtually no way to beat Norn once in play. Dredge can't even consistantly rely on racing Reanimator due to their possibly not having access to Norn in those turns due to the combination of Force, Daze, and sometimes Thoughtseize.

However, I am equally certain that this is not the reason the majority of others claimed the same problem with the deck, and wanted to find what their problems were.

[iamajellydonut]

Incorrect.

Oh, I figured it was.

Anyway, the non-rhetorical answer is that they're either bad decks or ignorant players or ignorant players playing bad decks. And I don't mean that maliciously, I live for shitty pet decks, but it's the truth of the matter. We all have our pet decks that we'll run and love no matter how down they get, but we do go "holy shit" when Dredge places because it is gimmicky and fragile. Likewise, people are arguing which deck steamrolls Dega worse with the two strongest decks in Legacy being the top contenders. So, sure, they're going to have bad match-ups against random things like Reanimator. And, deck choice aside, there are people who just don't know how to play match-ups. They play the game one against Reanimator going "woah fuck", lose game two, and then come into this thread like it's the end of the world.

Decks that aren't bad and players that aren't ignorant don't have "worst match-ups". They have decks they'd rather not face and they have decks they're comfortable playing against, but there's never really anything that can't be fixed with sideboarding.

[Parcher]

Oh, I figured it was.

Anyway, the non-rhetorical answer is that they're either bad decks or ignorant players or ignorant players playing bad decks. And I don't mean that maliciously, I live for shitty pet decks, but it's the truth of the matter. We all have our pet decks that we'll run and love no matter how down they get, but we do go "holy shit" when Dredge places because it is gimmicky and fragile. Likewise, people are arguing which deck steamrolls Dega worse with the two strongest decks in Legacy being the top contenders. So, sure, they're going to have bad match-ups against random things like Reanimator. And, deck choice aside, there are people who just don't know how to play match-ups. They play the game one against Reanimator going "woah fuck", lose game two, and then come into this thread like it's the end of the world.

Decks that aren't bad and players that aren't ignorant don't have "worst match-ups". They have decks they'd rather not face and they have decks they're comfortable playing against, but there's never really anything that can't be fixed with sideboarding.

Yes. (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=73434) Dredge (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=67740) is (https://www.facebook.com/events/1496869887214624/?_fb_noscript=1) gimmicky (http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=13776&iddeck=101259) and (http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=14289&iddeck=105363) fragile. (http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=14556&iddeck=107567)

[iamajellydonut]

Yes. (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=73434) Dredge (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=67740) is (https://www.facebook.com/events/1496869887214624/?_fb_noscript=1) gimmicky (http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=13776&iddeck=101259) and (http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=14289&iddeck=105363) fragile. (http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=14556&iddeck=107567)

I'm not trying to insult you. I like Dredge. I think it's fun and and I cheer my friend on whenever he brings it out. And grats on your victory. Competent players can do well with pet decks, but a pet deck it remains.

[Parcher]

That's absurd. By pet deck, do you mean one that's easily hated out? One that has a lot of bad matchups? One that is powerful, but inconsistant?

The last, I think I've proven is not applicable. As for the first two, there isn't a single deck that in the wide breadth of Legacy doen't have at least 5 bad matchups. And my definition of this, is where one has strategic superiority over the other. My definition of strategic superiority is assuming equally skilled pilots, when both decks are fully funtioning at peak output, one will win more than 50% of the games than the other. And as far as hate, 90% of the decks in Legacy can hate out any other deck in the format if they should choose to devote enough slots towards doing so, without changing the primary function of their deck.

[Admiral_Arzar]

Both Dredge and ReAnimator's worst matchups are their opponent's sideboards.

[Dice_Box]

People take notice of Dredge winning for the same reason people take notice of Goblins, Maverick and Nic Fit winning. These are decks who's time in the sun has come and gone. Those that still hold onto them tend to do so more for emotional reasons than an honest belief that the deck is well placed in the meta. That is why it's a pet deck. Not because it can be hated out, but because the people that play them tend to do so for emotional reasons instead of meta ones.

Edit.
Haha. Now that's funny, someone sign that post above me.

[Parcher]

Both Dredge and ReAnimator's worst matchups are their opponent's sideboards.

No arguement here.


People take notice of Dredge winning for the same reason people take notice of Goblins, Maverick and Nic Fit winning. These are decks who's time in the sun has come and gone. Those that still hold onto them tend to do so more for emotional reasons than an honest belief that the deck is well placed in the meta. That is why it's a pet deck. Not because it can be hated out, but because the people that play them tend to do so for emotional reasons instead of meta ones.


I play with it becuase I like to win.

[Dice_Box]

I am not saying it can't win, I am saying there are better choices. That yes, you can win with Dredge, Goblins and Nic Fit but that your better service with another option and say what you like, your not showing up with Dredge because you think it's the best deck in the room. That goes for double now thanks to Delve.

There is a video of Feline being interviewed after she won an event. The question is asked "What made you think High tide was well placed for the meta" (not word for word) to which she answered to the effect of "I didn't, I wanted to play it so I did."

[Parcher]

I see. Let me amplify my reply, then.

I play Dredge because in my hands, I believe it is the best deck in the room. I believe it gives the best chance for me to win. Considering since GPDC last year, I'm running over 70% match win, and over 80% in the last few months, there not much that could convince me otherwise.

[thecrav]

Both Dredge and ReAnimator's worst matchups are their opponent's sideboards.

In my short time playing Reanimator, I quickly learned that part of the sideboarding strategy is basically "If it is possible for them to board in GY hate, I have to board in Show and Tell"

[Lysandros]

You can go ahead and put Burn on the board as Painter's worst matchup. It's awful. AWFUL.

OmniTell's worst isn't quite as definitive, but is probably Reanimator.

Death and Taxes worst matchup is Elves. I think that one is pretty set.

That's all I'm really qualified to offer an opinion on.

[Nuke is Good]

You can go ahead and put Burn on the board as Painter's worst matchup. It's awful. AWFUL.

OmniTell's worst isn't quite as definitive, but is probably Reanimator.

Death and Taxes worst matchup is Elves. I think that one is pretty set.

That's all I'm really qualified to offer an opinion on.

Which version of painter are we talking about? I'd imagine R/W has some outs against burn.

But it can't be as miserable as Jund's burn matchup I can't imagine anything worse than that.

[apple713]

any chance you have had time to compile the data into something like the format of the OP?

[dte]

A lot of people are saying Miracles is elves worst matchup. As a miracles player, I do not think this could be the case. Unless your terrible with elves (which a lot of people are) or you are playing some outdated/budget version, the matchup is at best 55% in miracles favor. Reanimator, esper or UWR stoneblade are far tougher for elves in my experience.


There are a lot of MUs which are harder than miracle for elves. TES, Tinfins, reanimator, OOPs all spells, drege, S&T, chalice+PFire+loam.deck and belcher for examples.
But if you ask me the worst MU for elves, it is miracle. Because we play often against it, while the aforementioned decks are, even together, very rare.
So miracle is a bad AND played MU, so that's the worst :) .

With the same idea, I will argue with anyone saying that any deck worst MU is reanimator (which have a very bad MU against very played decks such as D&T or BUG).

[EpicLevelCommoner]

There are a lot of MUs which are harder than miracle for elves. TES, Tinfins, reanimator, OOPs all spells, drege, S&T, chalice+PFire+loam.deck and belcher for examples.
But if you ask me the worst MU for elves, it is miracle. Because we play often against it, while the aforementioned decks are, even together, very rare.
So miracle is a bad AND played MU, so that's the worst :) .

With the same idea, I will argue with anyone saying that any deck worst MU is reanimator (which have a very bad MU against very played decks such as D&T or BUG).

You're thinking of a representative worst matchup as opposed to a regular worst matchup.

By that I mean take a look at the following links for Street Fighter 3: 3rd Strike

http://wiki.shoryuken.com/Street_Fighter_3:_3rd_Strike#Tier-list

http://wiki.shoryuken.com/Street_Fighter_3:_3rd_Strike#Representative_Tier-list

Having said that, then I can definitely conclude that Sneak and Show is the worst representative matchup for Nic Fit.

[Noctalor]

I would say that Dredge is the worst MU for almost 80% of legacy.

[iamajellydonut]

I would say that Dredge is the worst MU for almost 80% of legacy.

What about games two and three?

[Zombie]

What about games two and three?

There is such a thing as sideboard space, and more played matchups.

[btm10]

There is such a thing as sideboard space, and more played matchups.

Dredge hate is pretty versatile. It's not like Cage and Rest in Peace only interact with Dredge and not other graveyard strategies.

[Zombie]

Dredge hate is pretty versatile. It's not like Cage and Rest in Peace only interact with Dredge and not other graveyard strategies.

I'd need to splash a color and can't play Cage. I mean, I could just play a blue deck and get to play those I guess.

[iamajellydonut]

I'd need to splash a color and can't play Cage. I mean, I could just play a blue deck and get to play those I guess.

Your personal problems, though I can't imagine how you're having problems with Dredge as Elves and why a lack of Cage would be relevant, have no bearing on the general format's ability (or inability) to defeat Dredge. The boast was, effectively, that dredge had an 80% win rate. The fact is, ignoring that general strategies such as "beat with Delver" still work, that any given deck runs anywhere from three to five dedicated pieces of graveyard hate for reasons completely unrelated to Dredge, about 40% of the format runs Deathrite Shaman mainboard, and Dredge is unable to race or interact with a large swath of the meta.

[FoolofaTook]

Dredge was the worst matchup for 80% of the Legacy meta before Deathrite Shaman entered the scene. At this point with real main list GY hate present in the meta Dredge only wins game 1 two-thirds of the time and then they have dismal chances in games two and three.

That's the best argument for banning DRS. It squats on the GY heavily and invalidates almost all archetypes that want to abuse the GY. In so doing it restricts the meta to a much narrower space than it otherwise would occupy. You could make the same argument for Tarmogoyf and aggro weenie strategies, which have largely disappeared from the meta, Combo Elves being the exception and also being a combo list not an aggro weenie list.

[Noctalor]

What about games two and three?

They have a 2x able to interact.
They have to get it both games.
They have to get it without mull into oblivion.
You have to not win on turn one.
You have to not get solution.
You have to not get Cabal Theraphy.

So im ok about game 2 and 3 to be honest.

Uh, so many of the things you said about Dredge are actually untrue.
Elves does not have a nice MU against Dredge, they have a really hard time facing Firestorm and a way faster combo.
Not every deck runs much grave hate atm, most comboes trade it for anti hate cards, RiP decks most likely have only 1/2 rip (if not deathbalde obv)
You can win under deathrite shaman A LOT of times, pretty much always otp.
You win game 1 like 80 to 90% of the times vs meta decks.

Actually game 2 may be harsh, but you have the advantage in game 3.

PS: Ofc we are talking about LED Dredge, not about suboptimal lists.

[LOLWut]

Stop disseminating false information about DRS's strength against Dredge, and the other bad info in posts, too, FoolofaTook. The site is used as a Legacy Bible for many, and less informed statements presented as facts distract from that mission, especially as prophet posts are given no more forum weight than madman posts.

And Zombie, you play Elves, and you're complaining about times being rough for you and your deck?

[danyul]

Stop disseminating false information about DRS's strength against Dredge, and the other bad info in posts, too, FoolofaTook. The site is used as a Legacy Bible for many, and less informed statements presented as facts distract from that mission, especially as prophet posts are given no more forum weight than madman posts.

And Zombie, you play Elves, and you're complaining about times being rough for you and your deck?

Amen to this. Lately it's been difficult to tell which is which around here.


Dredge was the worst matchup for 80% of the Legacy meta before Deathrite Shaman entered the scene. At this point with real main list GY hate present in the meta Dredge only wins game 1 two-thirds of the time and then they have dismal chances in games two and three.

That's the best argument for banning DRS. It squats on the GY heavily and invalidates almost all archetypes that want to abuse the GY. In so doing it restricts the meta to a much narrower space than it otherwise would occupy. You could make the same argument for Tarmogoyf and aggro weenie strategies, which have largely disappeared from the meta, Combo Elves being the exception and also being a combo list not an aggro weenie list.

I think Terminus is actually to blame for that. And Batterskull/SFM to some degree.

[Zombie]

Elves does not have a nice MU against Dredge, they have a really hard time facing Firestorm and a way faster combo.
You can win under deathrite shaman A LOT of times, pretty much always otp.

This. DRS is evil vs. stuff like reanimator and Past in Flames which require key cards, or stuff that needs to recur for value. LED Dredge can just dump so many targets into the bin you can never remove them before T3 with DRS/Ooze*, and that's all that's needed. After that there's nothing you can do but race (they're faster by a turn or a turn and a half) or hope they're incompetent and screw up. T2 Ooze is literally just too slow OTD. On the play, maybe. But that's a pretty big maybe. I play against Flayer LED Dredge every damn week and it's not fun.

*Besides which DRS can't do shit vs. Bridges, which are the thing that kills you.

[FoolofaTook]

You guys are delusional if you think DRS doesn't really hurt Dredge.

Half the time you're on the play and even if you're not DRS lands turn 1 and if the explosive start is there for Dredge you can put it in your own GY to kill the bridges.

Against the Mana-less variant it is THE killer card because they always want to draw and 40% of the time you have DRS sitting there to just eat their plan alive.

Game 1 used to be an almost completely non-interactive romp for Dredge barring an occasional really fortunate sequence of counters that knocked it off the plan. Then game 2 and game 3 gave it chances depending on how hard the opponent had to mull to find some hate.

Now game 1 can turn into a bad run just off the opponent have a 1cc creature blind. Are there ways to get around it? Yeah, Street Wraith can give Dredge a draw in response to the activation and there are other ways also, however the old paradigm where Dredge won 80%+ of game 1's no longer applies and games 2 and 3 have gotten much tougher as well with RiP and Grafdigger's Cage in the mix alongside Relic of Progenitus and the old staples.

[Noctalor]

You guys are delusional if you think DRS doesn't really hurt Dredge.

Half the time you're on the play and even if you're not DRS lands turn 1 and if the explosive start is there for Dredge you can put it in your own GY to kill the bridges.

Against the Mana-less variant it is THE killer card because they always want to draw and 40% of the time you have DRS sitting there to just eat their plan alive.

I can't convince you.

I can just ensure you that im able to beat DRS deck pretty consistently, in my last big event i just beat elves twice, both times played by really good players and both times being otd, and elves IS the best DRS deck vs dredge, they can get it online really fast, they can fetch it, they can activate it multiple times, they run Ooze too and thay can combo on turn 3.

Btw, do you play Dredge at all?

[iamajellydonut]

I think Terminus is actually to blame for that. And Batterskull/SFM to some degree.

There are so many factors to why Dredge isn't a thing anymore. Terminus and Stoneforge Mystic and so on are the lot to blame, but not in the way that you mean or at least how you said it.

Dredge is fucking old. Future Sight, believe it or not, came out seven years ago and contained Dredge's last relevant batch of cards. Faithless Looting alone is not enough to resuscitate that cadaver. By sharp contrast, Death and Taxes is three years old since its last major patch. Miracles, Elves, and BUG are going on two years. Burn is less than a year old. UR Delver is less than a month old. That's how these things work. Decks that are seven or ten years old (hey, Goblins) and have faced more hate in the past four years than the sixteen years prior combined just aren't able to compete with decks that are still in in shape and up to date.

[Ace/Homebrew]

Btw, do you play Dredge at all?
I hope this gets answered... Based on the last 150 forum posts, it looks like he's a dedicated Team America pilot. There were 0 posts in any Dredge threads.

[Noctalor]

There are so many factors to why Dredge isn't a thing anymore. Terminus and Stoneforge Mystic and so on are the lot to blame, but not in the way that you mean or at least how you said it.

Dredge is fucking old. Future Sight, believe it or not, came out seven years ago and contained Dredge's last relevant batch of cards. Faithless Looting alone is not enough to resuscitate that cadaver. By sharp contrast, Death and Taxes is three years old since its last major patch. Miracles, Elves, and BUG are going on two years. Burn is less than a year old. UR Delver is less than a month old. That's how these things work. Decks that are seven or ten years old (hey, Goblins) and have faced more hate in the past four years than the sixteen years prior combined just aren't able to compete with decks that are still in in shape and up to date.

K (http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=14818&iddeck=109765)

[FoolofaTook]

I can't convince you.

I can just ensure you that im able to beat DRS deck pretty consistently, in my last big event i just beat elves twice, both times played by really good players and both times being otd, and elves IS the best DRS deck vs dredge, they can get it online really fast, they can fetch it, they can activate it multiple times, they run Ooze too and thay can combo on turn 3.

Btw, do you play Dredge at all?

No, I beat Dredge about 60/40 with BUG at this point. I used to beat Dredge about 45/55 with Tempo Threshold and felt very fortunate to get there, mainly because of Daze, Counterbalance and Stifle in the mix and then a ton of hate in the SB.

The difference between winning the first game 40% of the time and winning the first game 20% of the time is the difference between the two lists I have played extensively against Dredge. Without DRS I'd be back to blind losses game one except when Dredge fizzled on it's own and then having to win game 2 and 3 off of mulling to hate.

[FoolofaTook]

I hope this gets answered... Based on the last 150 forum posts, it looks like he's a dedicated Team America pilot. There were 0 posts in any Dredge threads.

The Rock (circa 2006), Tempo Threshold (with Werebear and company), Landstill, Dreadstill, Tempo Threshold (Goyf-version), Enchantress Shell, Jund, BUG in various forms. That's basically what I've played in my periodic returns to Legacy.

I've never played Dredge or Storm because I like interactive lists and neither of the archetypes provides much effective interaction with the opponent. I've generally feared Dredge because it is designed to play around any meaningful response from the opponent. That fear is long gone. I'm 4-1 in the last 5 matches against Dredge and the loss was a game 1 blowout which will happen and a mull to 4 in which I not only saw no hate but I didn't see 2 lands until I got to 4 cards. That will happen. I also won a game 3 against the Mana-less variant where I got a cage at 4 cards and locked him out. That same match a DRS locked him out game 1.

[danyul]

There are so many factors to why Dredge isn't a thing anymore. Terminus and Stoneforge Mystic and so on are the lot to blame, but not in the way that you mean or at least how you said it.

Dredge is fucking old. Future Sight, believe it or not, came out seven years ago and contained Dredge's last relevant batch of cards. Faithless Looting alone is not enough to resuscitate that cadaver. By sharp contrast, Death and Taxes is three years old since its last major patch. Miracles, Elves, and BUG are going on two years. Burn is less than a year old. UR Delver is less than a month old. That's how these things work. Decks that are seven or ten years old (hey, Goblins) and have faced more hate in the past four years than the sixteen years prior combined just aren't able to compete with decks that are still in in shape and up to date.

I think I was addressing his claim that DRS made Goyf/weenie decks go away. But I'm really bad at reading and also writing sometimes so who knows. Also I think the worst part about playing Dredge is that you don't really get to play it. It mostly plays you while you sit there hoping RNG is kind to you that day.

[Ace/Homebrew]

I think I was addressing his claim that DRS made Goyf/weenie decks go away. But I'm really bad at reading and also writing sometimes so who knows. Also I think the worst part about playing Dredge is that you don't really get to play it. It mostly plays you while you sit there hoping RNG is kind to you that day.

Hah!

In Soviet Russia, Dredge plays you! :tongue:

[Zombie]

I can't convince you.

I can just ensure you that im able to beat DRS deck pretty consistently, in my last big event i just beat elves twice, both times played by really good players and both times being otd, and elves IS the best DRS deck vs dredge, they can get it online really fast, they can fetch it, they can activate it multiple times, they run Ooze too and thay can combo on turn 3.

Btw, do you play Dredge at all?

The one place where I'd disagree with that is that we don't have removal or sac outlets (apart from NO) G1, so can't kill Bridges to slow Dredge down really.

[iamajellydonut]

But I'm really bad at reading and also writing sometimes so who knows.

I'm also really bad at reading and also writing sometimes, and looking back I think this one's my bad, so it's ok. If you want to start a club, I can make a mean grilled cheese for our potlucks.


Anyway, regardless of my interpretation of which part of the post you were addressing, my point still stands. Dredge is an antiquated deck that sorely needs an update in order to be anything close to what people in this thread are chalking it up to be.

[danyul]

Normally I would be upset at such an egregious offense to WORDZ. But I can't stay mad at you. Because I am overweight. And you are a jelly donut.

Edit - I also love potlucks. Because overweight.

[apple713]

This is the aggregate results for all of the previous responses. the % don't add to 100% because I've omitted decks that are 1% or less of meta... Meta data was taken as of 2014 from MTGtop 8

posted as an image to maintain formatting

http://i.imgur.com/pVz79Xkl.png (http://imgur.com/pVz79Xk)

[iamajellydonut]

But I can't stay mad at you. Because I am overweight. And you are a jelly donut.

Edit - I also love potlucks. Because overweight.

I dunno 'bout you, but I feel good about this club.

[theBloody]

This is the aggregate results for all of the previous responses. the % don't add to 100% because I've omitted decks that are 1% or less of meta... Meta data was taken as of 2014 from MTGtop 8

posted as an image to maintain formatting

<img>

Good job.

[Ace/Homebrew]

I can't stay mad at you. Because I am overweight. And you are a jelly donut.
I think you are being catfished...

[iamajellydonut]

Don't listen to him, Dan. Our love is real.

[danyul]

I'm beginning to think that my worst matchup is Food because I love catfish too...

[ahg113]

I'm beginning to think that my worst matchup is Food because I love catfish too...

Fried or broiled?

The only correct answer is fried.

[danyul]

Fried, of course.

And just to keep things from getting totally hijacked, nice table, Mister apple man. I was under the impression that Burn was a huge part of the MTGO metagame right now so that 3% figure is somewhat surprising.

[apple713]

Fried, of course.

And just to keep things from getting totally hijacked, nice table, Mister apple man. I was under the impression that Burn was a huge part of the MTGO metagame right now so that 3% figure is somewhat surprising.

that may be the case in an isolated setting but this was all 2014 from mtg top8 so most of legacy is not hindered by cost restrictions as i fear mtgo is.

[Miscanthus]

Sorry for the necro, but I was curious what people's thoughts are on best/worst matchups, given the new meta and the new decks we have now (such as Eldrazi, B/r Reanimator, etc.).
For example:
-Perhaps it could now be said that Eldrazi is ANT's worst matchup.
-Is 12post still the Miracles' greatest nemesis (I personally don't play Miracles that much, but have seen the versions running Monastery Mentor seem to have a decent game against it).
-To the B/r Reanimator players out there, what do you consider your worst/best matchup(s)?

Thoughts?

[ESG]

Miracles' greatest nemesis = the round clock.

[Quasim0ff]

miracles' greatest nemesis = a distaste for snoopy.
ftfy.

[Stevestamopz]

Goblins: anyone actually trying.

[LarsLeif]

Goblins: anyone actually trying.

:,(

[kinda]

Worst matchup for dredge, maña less dredge is The Mighty Quinn.

[Whitefaces]

Goblins: anyone actually trying.

You're still one of the worst matchups for Miracles though!

[Dice_Box]

Mentor really flipped that match. I would not play Goblins against Mentor Miracles and think I am that far ahead.

[CabalTherapy]

-Perhaps it could now be said that Eldrazi is ANT's worst matchup.


That is definitely not true. I rather play against this pile than UB Reanimator or BR Reanimator.

[Megadeus]

Worst matchup for dredge, maña less dredge is The Mighty Quinn.

Agreed. Rest in Peace is very difficult to beat. I think we need an in depth article out lining this match up and how dredge should warp its side board to ensure victory against this unbeatable pile.

[hymnyou]

Goblins: anyone actually trying.

We have a resident Goblins player that top 8ed our last SCG classic and won the SCG classic before that one. He top 8'ed our last quarterly for a mox, Goblins is respected around here.

[Ingo]

-To the B/r Reanimator players out there, what do you consider your worst/best matchup(s)?


Decks running counters, discard and DRS in the main combined with a fast clock, so basically Grixis Delver.

Best might be other combodecks, as we're faster, more disruptive and they tend to have much less gravehate than fair decks. As Show and Tell could easily backfire, I'd say Sneakshow.

[Xod]

We have a resident Goblins player that top 8ed our last SCG classic and won the SCG classic before that one. He top 8'ed our last quarterly for a mox, Goblins is respected around here.

I would gladly see the decklist he is playing. Of course, skill and luck is also involved.

[Miscanthus]

So to take a shot at this...

Miracles:
Worst- The Red Baron. Then Goblins or 12Post. Others?
Best- Everything else?

Storm:
Worst- Eldrazi or B/r Reanimator.
Best- Enchantress? Lands?

D&T:
Worst- Elves? Others?
Best- ? Lots of new toys for this deck lately. Have they flipped or changed any matchups?

Eldrazi:
Worst- Lands?
Best- Storm?

Reanimator:
Worst- Grixis Delver. BUG Delver also?
Best- Sneak and Show?

Elves:
Worst- Miracles? Storm?
Best- D&T?

Grixis Delver:
Worst- Lands?
Best- ?

BUG Delver:
Worst- Lands?
Best- ?

RUG Delver:
Worst- Lands?
Best- ?

U/R Delver:
Worst- ?
Best- Shardless BUG?

Burn:
Worst- Belcher-style combo decks? Reanimator?
Best- Shardless BUG?

Shardless BUG:
Worst- Burn?
Best- ?

Stoneblade:
Worst- Storm?
Best- ?

Sneak Show/OmniTell:
Worst- Reanimator? D&T?
Best- Lands?

Infect:
Worst- ?
Best- ?

Dredge:
Worst- The Mighty Quinn.
Best- anything unprepared/without graveyard hate?

Aggro Loam:
Worst- ?
Best- ?

Lands:
Worst- Storm? OmniTell?
Best- Eldrazi? Delver decks?

Goblins:
Worst- just about any combo deck?
Best- Miracles?


Others?

[Mackan]

Solidarity vs Spiral tide

[Dice_Box]

There is a simple rule to work out what's a bad matchup when your playing Lands: Are they playing Lotus Petal? If so your likely the dog in that matchup.

I have been playing MUD Stax a bit of late, best matches are combo and small creature decks without Decay. Worst match, Nic Fit. Decay, Pulse and Deed fuck me.

[Begle1]

There's a deck that preys on Miracles called "The Red Baron"?

I think I'm missing something.

[Lord_Mcdonalds]

I guess that would be Mono Red Sneak Attack?

Seriously, what the fuck is that?

[Barachai]

I guess that would be Mono Red Sneak Attack?

Seriously, what the fuck is that?

Snoopy reference maybe?

[Miscanthus]

Snoopy reference maybe?

For the younger readers here, The Red Baron is Snoopy the WWI Flying Ace's enemy in the original comic strip. Poor Snoopy never could beat him in a dogfight...

It refers to any deck that a competent Miracles pilot should normally crush (a modern Zoo deck, for instance), but which inexplicably beats the pants off the Miracles player in the match.
The (somewhat salty) Miracles pilot is then left wondering what happened, and in true Snoopy form says "Curse You Red Baron!"
This has been somewhat popular around my LGS (and others in the area) ever since Snoopy became the mascot of Miracles...

[btm10]

So to take a shot at this..

U/R Delver:
Worst- ?
Best- Shardless BUG?


The matchup isn't that bad from the Shardless side. I was something like 5-1 against Ur Delver over 2016, though I did catch a few lucky breaks, so my guess is that the matchup is close to even.






Shardless BUG:
Worst- Burn?
Best- Other blue midrange decks

Stoneblade:
Worst- Shardless BUG
Best- ?


From the Shardless side, that matchup has felt about as close to unloseabe as it gets. I've beaten ANT with Esper Stoneblade. I've never beaten Shardless, and I've never lost a sanctioned match to a Blue Stoneforge deck with Shardless.



Aggro Loam:
Worst- ?
Best- ?


Worst - probably Sneak and Show
Best - probably ANT, maybe Grixis Delver.

[Julian23]

For Elves, Sneak Show with OmniTell feels like far and away our worst matchup.

[nedleeds]

For any not blue deck, Sneak Show with OmniTell feels like far and away our worst matchup.

There are times this feels utterly unwinnable on the draw for any deck without pitch magic. When they say, Ponder off an Island ... and don't shuffle. Pass and your hand is like Creatures, Removal and Lands. Then sol land, derp and tell, omnichimp, derp. The hate cards that beat dropping Omni and having the Ape Demon or Emrakul in hand are pretty slim.

The gentleman's agreement keeps the format from being a complete shit show.

[(nameless one)]

Doesn't Death&Taxes shit on OmniDerp though? Mana Denial+Thalia, Karakas on the dudes.

[nedleeds]

Doesn't Death&Taxes shit on OmniDerp though? Mana Denial+Thalia, Karakas on the dudes.

Meet Omni Science. Emrakul and Griselbrand unfortunately are creatures.

There are sane solutions to just Show and Tell -> Dude. But when they have Omniape and 900 cantrips a good number of well designed hate cards just become textless (see: Containment Priest). Even if they just have Omniape and some cantrips, you are normally hosed. There's almost nothing that plays around Omniape because you won't get priority before they can put Emrakul on the stack. Banishing Light style effects do something, but not against Griselbrand. Omnirhesusmonkey makes it almost impossible to have a 'best' hate card, for a strategy that literally a fucking piece of field moss can assemble.

[CptHaddock]

Worst - probably Sneak and Show
Best - probably ANT, maybe Grixis Delver.

Agree with you on the worst, anything with show and tell + most decks that can power out a quick blood moon e.g. stompy/painter on most draws. As for best I don't know about ANT, I think loam does have some draws that completely shut down the deck but the deck is just too inconsistent to get those draws often.

[Varal]

Enchantress is probably Lands worse matchup, ton of basics, can't interact with creatures. Elephant Grass and Rest in Peace hose the deck hard.

[inori]

enchantress shits on every fair deck...

[Whitefaces]

Except the ones playing Leovold, which is a fair few.

[Crimhead]

Enchantress is probably Lands worse matchup, ton of basics, can't interact with creatures. Elephant Grass and Rest in Peace hose the deck hard.
Ghost Quarter is good against Enchantress, but the match is rough (especially if they bring in Blood Moon).

But Lands' worse match is far and away High Tide.

[Richard Cheese]

Omnirhesusmonkey makes it almost impossible to have a 'best' hate card, for a strategy that literally a fucking piece of field moss can assemble.

While this is true, the simplicity of the combo also seems to result in a bunch of people playing the deck that really don't know what they're doing with it, and completely over relying on Omniscience as a guaranteed win. I won two games against different opponents a couple weeks ago just by bouncing it in response to Intuition/Cunning Wish, and I basically suck at this game. Also, turns out having your own Grizzlebees is pretty good against SnT decks.

Also I just realized I replied to a comment that's 9 months old by a banned user, so apparently I suck at reading too.
10/10 good necro.

[Miscanthus]

For the new Miracles players out there, what do you think are the best and worst matchups for the deck post top ban?

[Pdingo]

For the new Miracles players out there, what do you think are the best and worst matchups for the deck post top ban?

If you play a good list with no greedy cards then probably

Best Match up: still Elves, dnt feels also good/better,

Worst: 12 Post Stompy

[koten]

If you play a good list with no greedy cards then probably

Best Match up: still Elves, dnt feels also good/better,

Worst: 12 Post Stompy

Which greedy cards are you referring to?

[Zombie]

Meet Omni Science. Emrakul and Griselbrand unfortunately are creatures.

There are sane solutions to just Show and Tell -> Dude. But when they have Omniape and 900 cantrips a good number of well designed hate cards just become textless (see: Containment Priest). Even if they just have Omniape and some cantrips, you are normally hosed. There's almost nothing that plays around Omniape because you won't get priority before they can put Emrakul on the stack. Banishing Light style effects do something, but not against Griselbrand. Omnirhesusmonkey makes it almost impossible to have a 'best' hate card, for a strategy that literally a fucking piece of field moss can assemble.

I miss nedleeds.

[Chatto]

I miss nedleeds.

It's ten months or so? Time flies. I wonder what he's up to...

[Richard Cheese]

It's ten months or so? Time flies. I wonder what he's up to...

Probably sayin' rude shit on the Internet.

[ChrisDissent]

Just wanted to know what are the worst match ups for Grixis Delver at the moment. Thx for the info.

[sea]

Just wanted to know what are the worst match ups for Grixis Delver at the moment. Thx for the info.

lands in my experience. burn and czech pile (and other similar bug midrange things) are also probably less than 50%.

[Raizen884]

Same as above, but also Elves and deathblade are favored against Grixis Delver, but I guess Lands is the only one which is like the worst, it is hard to out tempo a deck with so many ways to get a lot of lands every turn, playing sometimes multiple lands a turn with punishing fire, maze of ith, Tabernacle....

[Hanni]

Eldrazi Stompy can also be tough for Grixis Delver, depending on how the cards line up.

[Griselpuff]

I don't think anything is worse than 45%, my least favorite decks to face are decks like Eldrazi/Moon Stompy/Merfolk/Burn because there's generally not many ways to outplay my opponents. Elves, RUG Delver, Bant DeathBlade, Lands, Turbo Depths and Miracles aren't great, but I feel comfortable against most players because I'm prepared and have good sideboard plans. Other StoneBlade decks are generally favorable.

[Raizen884]

Yeah, and that feels weird, like THE deck to beat, when you look at the DTB is probably in number of decks, the one that has the most number of unfavorable matchups, but they are so close like 45/55, that a lot of good players are ok with that since you can navigate basically any MU even when they are unfavorable.

So its hard to actually put the worst, there are just a big number of slightly favored decks.

[hymnyou]

It's ten months or so? Time flies. I wonder what he's up to...

http://www.eternalcentral.com/the-curious-case-of-mishras-workshop/

http://www.eternalcentral.com/tusk-talk-podcast-episode-22-vintage-champs-and-mishras-last-stand/

These are from the last month. Otherwise he's riffle shuffling beta power/duals and living the good life.

Tusk up.

[emidln]

A Goldfish can be tough for Spanish Inquisition. Probably only 70-80% vs it tbh.

[apple713]

Kinda a necro but a good one because I wished we had finished the list and research that Barook started.

We can add depths to the list of established decks. The worst matchups would be Blood Moon Stompy / painter and death & taxes.

[Megadeus]

#FreeNedleeds #TuskUp