Sleeves: Dragon Shield vs KMC

[apple713]

Gotta buy a bunch of sleeves and haven't played with KMC but heard good things.

If you choose other post it in the topic

Please don't put ultra pro. The newer ultra pros tear like tissues. The older ultra pros however were awesome.

[Arsenal]

If you're going for KMC, I'd suggest getting the Matte instead of the Super Series. Matte gives you about 4-5 color options, while Super gives you 12+, but Supers have this weird film that can flake off after repeated use (I'm assuming this film is what gives it that glossy finish).

[Viridia]

I'm personally using Dragon Shields atm, as i have my 500card Cube in it and figured it'd be easy to swap out Legacy cards from my decks to the Cube and back.
However i used KMC before these, and they're definately better. DS sleeves seem to get dirty within a few hours of playing with them, aswel as there being lots of minor imperfections in them (mainly in the size, some are bigger then others, i even have 2 that are 3-5 mm bigger then the rest)

[Philipp2293]

Recently started using the KMC Metallic Red and Blue sleeves, so far they shuffle and look good, but no heavy use yet. DS get dirty ultra fast, that's for sure.

[LowBeyonder]

I've tried just about everything and settled almost exclusively on KMC Matte Brown. The other matte colors are generally fine but IME brown shows the least wear. The only complaint I have about them is that occasionally they'll pick up a corner crease during shuffling that can to marked very quickly. The non-matte KMCs are still probably better than anything else but I've had more issues with them tearing or marking easily.

Dragon Shields are probably the most resilient sleeves I've used (I've never had one rip, ever) but seem to pick up dirt and cruft very quickly. They also often have a pronounced curve to them that can warp cards, especially foils, and are a little inconsistent on whether they'll fit double-sleeved cards.

[Megadeus]

Im a fan of the KMC Mattes. They shuffle much better than Dragonshields and are almost as resilient

[Chikenbok]

I was a KMC user for a while a Dragon Shield user for a while a KMC user for a while a Dragon shield user for a while (see where this is going?). But I've finally settled back on Dragon shields. Yes, they do pick up spots of grime but if you play with clean hands and on a clean mat (I know that's a lot to ask for) they're generally fine. I've found the KMC Mattes, rather than picking up grime, somehow incorporate it into their essence and become harder to shuffle the longer you play with them...

[Koby]

Ultra Pro 2007 series.

I just wish I had cases of these sleeve left. By far the most consistent, fits double-sleeving, gets dirty less quickly than both KMC and DragonShields, light-weight.

[.dk]

Bought a case of KMC Black Matte's a while back - they've been pretty awesome, overall. They do tend to get dirty after a while though, which makes shuffling a bit difficult. Seems likely they are pretty easy to clean/scrape off. Haven't really tried.

I've yet to have any of them split on me though - they seem to be incredibly resilient with excellent welds.

[Dan Turner]

I have purchased KMC once and I am not sure if I got a bad batch or whatever but my perfect fits was so tight it trapped air in it and made the cards poof. Dragon sleeves are easier to acquire locally for me. Perfect fits fit in them and you can set books on them to press out the air with the KMC not even that worked for me. I purchase pink only and have always had almost perfect quality, every now and then I will get a box that is a hair off from the rest in terms of length but that is easy to work with.

Ultra pro's use to be awesome as heck around Ice Age, but have gone down hill since then. I have a couple old ones from decks I had back then and compared to a new one you can feel the difference. It is like picking up a real beta and a re-backed collectors edition card. Your not quit sure what is wrong they just feel different.

[apistat_commander]

Ultra Pro 2007 series...light-weight.

How long until we see the obsession with weight and the attendant carbon fiber trickle into Magic? To be honest, I wouldn't mind a sexy stack of carbon fiber weave sitting on my playmat but maybe I just exist at a perverse intersection between cycling and MTG.

At OP: I use Dragon Shields because they are durable but they do get dirty quickly. The "new" batch of Dragon Shields (after they went on hiatus for a while) seem to be shorter than the older ones so you have to go through and push your cards down frequently or they show on the top. This is not cool. However I have never split a Dragon Shield while I have split numerous KMC and Ultra Pro sleeves and I am pretty gentle with my cards.

[Dan Turner]

How long until we see the obsession with weight and the attendant carbon fiber trickle into Magic? To be honest, I wouldn't mind a sexy stack of carbon fiber weave sitting on my playmat but maybe I just exist at a perverse intersection between cycling and MTG.

If people re concerned about the weight of their sleeves, then maybe they need to put the deck down and go do some free weights. I would start with maybe a pencil and go from there.

[Koby]

I'm not talking about the weight per se. I'm talking about the profile. It's minimal material compared to Dragon Shields and KMC's. The deck, even double sleeved, is significantly more narrow than the alternatives.

[Dan Turner]

I'm not talking about the weight per se. I'm talking about the profile. It's minimal material compared to Dragon Shields and KMC's. The deck, even double sleeved, is significantly more narrow than the alternatives.

Carbon fiber is thicker then most card sleeves, maybe a fiber from carbon nanotubes or something but then the cost of the sleeves would be more then a full beta powered tier 1 Vintage deck.

[Technics]

KMC Metallic Rose Blue (Discontinued so a bitch to find) are awesome. Also swear by KMC Matte Blacks, seriously the best sleeve out there. I tried Dragon Shields once (gold) and they were just too bent for me. Never looked back from KMC.

[Technics]

I have purchased KMC once and I am not sure if I got a bad batch or whatever but my perfect fits was so tight it trapped air in it and made the cards poof.

That is quite normal, they are PERFECT fits. Normally I just press the whole deck down a little, and that sorts 90% of the problem out. Then just play a game or two with them, and the air slips out and your card is vacum-sealed inside. :-D

[GexxX]

That is quite normal, they are PERFECT fits. Normally I just press the whole deck down a little, and that sorts 90% of the problem out. Then just play a game or two with them, and the air slips out and your card is vacum-sealed inside. :-D

Had Matte Black when I first started playing Legacy about three years ago. Cards are expensive in the format, proper protection seems logical. My Deck looked like a 150card pile until i switched to Dragons. KMC split often, getting perfect size into them was quite hard. The only upside was a little less dirt on them, but apart from that I really HATED them. I personally like Dragon shields way better. They aren't as expensive and that's how I argue when it comes to collecting dirt - you need more sleeves per time, but the overall cost is about equal. Also you can vary with colors which is quite cool I think :>

Another big plus of DS is that for testing, goldfishing and proxies they are quite cool. Dirt does not matter for those purposes!

[Arianrhod]

I tend to bounce back and forth between the two. Vintage stays in Dragonshields, because I want the highest level of protection for my power, and if they don't look quite as gorgeous, oh well. I prefer KMC Mattes for legacy, but it's something of a lottery whether you open a set of sleeves that works with perfect fits or not. So usually I get KMCs for a few times, and am happy, then I get a set that refuses to accept perfect fits so I get frustrated and go back to dragons....then I realize that I can't tell my foils are foil anymore, so I get frustrated and go back to KMCs....and so on. It's a never ending cycle.

[Viridia]

then I realize that I can't tell my foils are foil anymore, so I get frustrated and go back to KMCs.

This is my biggest issue with DS atm, if you get new perfect fits in new DS, it looks beautiful, but after a few games, you can hardly see the foiling :(

[Richard Cheese]

KMC MAT all the way. Black seems to be the thinnest and easiest to shuffle, but the finish is the smoothest so they show wear more than the others so you need to shuffle your sideboard in with your deck quite a bit. Brown and Red are a lot thicker and seem to have more texture to the finish so wear is less noticeable, but they do get the corner bend problem LowBeyonder mentioned. I have heard the quality of DS has improved in recent years, but I'm still not a fan of that ultra high-gloss finish. Unless you're using a really bright color, the scuffing is super obvious, and no matter what color, they always seem to be sticking together.

[rancOr_]

DS is pretty crappy KMC+perfect fit inner is the way to go for sure;)

[Fossil4182]

I've never liked Dragon Shield. I purchased two boxes of Dragon Shield: in 2009 and in 2011. Both times, the sleeves I bought we're cut uniformly; the length varied in approximately 1 in 8 sleeves. Since then, I've tried the new Ultra Pro line and haven't been impressed with the quality.

I've been slowly upgrading my collection from MP/SP to NM over the last year. As a result, I've began using perfect fit sleeves and KMC seemed to be the best reviewed ones (better than Ultra Pro perfect fits at least). I've switched over to using KMC black sleeves last year and, in general, have been relatively happy with them. KMC perfect fits work quite while once you figure out a system putting the perfect fitted card into the larger sleeve. I tend to side shuffle 3-4 times, then pile shuffle, then side shuffle an addition 3-4 times and have yet to have an issue with the KMC sleeves ripping, snagging or sliding all over the place.

@Magic Fanatic: I actually like the poof that the perfect fits create. Its a good indication to me that the card would hold up much better if some liquid spilled on it. The air will slowly leak out overtime anyway since its not truly air tight, but the poof is proof of protection for me. That being said, it is rather annoying to try and find a deck box that will hold the cards.

As an aside, I bought 6 50 packs of Ultra Pro black sleeves around 2007 for $2 a pack! Without a doubt the best sleeves I've ever purchased. Sadly, they're all worn out now and they're only good for the "you can borrow this to play Legacy" decks (IE Burn and Affinity). I've been able to keep them in relatively good shape by wiping them down every once in a while - I can usually clean 75 to 100 sleeves in 20 minutes.

Just out of curiosity how many people perfect fit their cards?

[Dark Ritual]

I don't like dragonshields anymore because of the hackjob they do when cutting them. Some sleeves are taller than other sleeves/marked not to mention dragon shields bend like a bitch out of the box and I have had troubles with my deck falling over in a tournament because of how slippery they are when they are new.

I'd go for KMC Matte's. I shuffled with KMC Matte's just one time and was sold. Unfortunately I have over a thousand KMC Super Silver sleeves that most of my cards are in including my cube. Resleeving all those and buying a lot of sleeves costs way too much time and money for me right now.

But yeah KMC Matte's are probably the way to go. Ultra pro sleeves are AWFUL and whenever I see the silver circle in the sleeve in anyone's deck I cringe. When people say ultra pro is cheaper I just laugh and say "so you'd rather save a dollar in the short term because ultra pro's split like a bitch all the time if you do the mash shuffle technique. If you riffle shuffle you're just devaluing your cards instead when they get hairline creases in the middle and the cards become warped. Sweet deal."

[sdematt]

I like the KMC Mattes, but they get sticky for me after a tournament or two. Having to clean them off is a bit of a pain as well, and with the perfect fits, your deck ends up getting pretty tall. I opt for the Ultra Pro: Pro Mattes because they slide really nicely, and when they get old, I just buy a new set. They don't last as long and aren't as good but they shuffle much more smoothly.

-Matt

[Vidi]

I personally like Purple Dragon Shield and both Red and Blue Metallic from KMC, Ultra Pro is the worst.
I mean, how can you dislike Dragon Shield? I heard they're made of Dragons...

[dsck]

I opt for the Ultra Pro: Pro Mattes


Put KMC perfect fits in these babies and you have the perfect combination.

[RaNDoMxGeSTuReS]

Pink Dragonshields (for anything combo).

[Richard Cheese]

Put KMC perfect fits in these babies and you have the perfect combination.

Except that you can see through most of the lighter colors, and I had problems with the corners getting bent almost immediately.

[alphastryk]

DS is pretty crappy KMC+perfect fit inner is the way to go for sure;)

+1

[phazonmutant]

Shuffling Dragonshields feels like I'm shuffling razor blades. Their seams are sharp! Also feel like thin tissue paper next to KMC Mats.

I use KMC Supers for my Cube and KMC Matte for Legacy. Happy with both.

[ween]

I've always loved Dragonshields, but i picked up some KMC Matte Dark Blue for my BUG deck to see how they went.

Overall i like them, except that they seem to get greasy/dark finger prints on them very easily, of course it is summer here and things are a bit moist unfortunately, so it could be that.

I always kinda liked the Ultra Pro's with the holograph, but it tended to flake/peel off after repeated shuffles.

[Madmaniac21]

KMC black matte and not close for me

[Psyqo]

Picking up some KMC Matte sleeves. Do they change their style of sleeves often like Ultra Pro does? I've been burnt a couple times trying to buy the "same" Ultra Pro matte sleeves but there is always some noticeable difference. If I like these KMC sleeves I'd like to pick up a few more packs in like 6 months or so and I'm hoping they wouldn't be a different model (or whatever) than what I'm buying now.

[alphastryk]

Picking up some KMC Matte sleeves. Do they change their style of sleeves often like Ultra Pro does? I've been burnt a couple times trying to buy the "same" Ultra Pro matte sleeves but there is always some noticeable difference. If I like these KMC sleeves I'd like to pick up a few more packs in like 6 months or so and I'm hoping they wouldn't be a different model (or whatever) than what I'm buying now.

I've been buying KMC Matte blues for years and have not noticed a change.

[nedleeds]

Unsleeved on slate tablets.

[Zakman86]

Yanoman Gunmetals.

[Kich867]

Sticky sleeves has nothing to do with the brand, it's strictly a hands thing. Clean hands and a play mat are all you need to prevent that from happening: I've played with KMC Matte's and Ultra Pro's and in my like on and off 13 years of playing my decks have never come close to being stuck together. The KMC sleeves I bought in the beginning of February still have the issue of sliding around when I put my deck down if I don't push down with my palm a bit.

I keep good care of my cards, the only unfortunate thing is when you go to a tournament and some sweaty fat guy manhandles the pants off of your deck and smells like he hasn't showered in 12 days.

80% of my misplays come from being completely overwhelmed by the smell of either my opponent or a nearby player and/or the hyper-nerd tendencies of them..

Anyways, /endrant.

I really enjoy KMC's, but there's this weird hit-or-miss about them where either the corners bend like fucking crazy or they don't ever bend. I have maroon KMC Mattes that I bought about a year ago and aside from some frilly tops, are god damn perfect. They feel like I'm shuffling velvet wrapped cards. I have maroon KMC Mattes that I bought about 2 months later that are definitely made of some sort of thicker plastic or something, all the corners went to shit, it never felt right shuffling them, they were just weird.

The only colors I trust right now for KMC are blue and black. Brown has been good to me but the corners, again, are getting a little fucked.

I've never, ever encountered KMC's in which perfect fits wouldn't fit inside them.

[Oogway]

I've never, ever encountered KMC's in which perfect fits wouldn't fit inside them.

I don't think it's the normal sleeves that are the problem. I brought some perfect fits awhile ago and they would not go down properly. I found some double sleeved quite well while others it was virtually impossible. I did a bit of swapping around with different perfect fits, cards and kmc/ds and found it to be the 'perfect' fits being too big, as the one that felt more snug were more likely to sleeve properly. I did manage to get them all down luckily.
I myself prefer kmc. I have had the same main sleeves for over 2 years and they are still kicking. The side edges are beginning to flatten and split, but hey it's been 2 years and they have such a vintage look to them now. My first pack of recent ultra pros were terrible. Every shuffle a slip would split resulting in a scuffed card edge. Definitely stay away from these when your playing with cards worth hundreds each as a scuff takes the condition right down to mp from nm lol.

[kiblast]

I prefer KMC. Anyway I noticed my sleeves are collecting less dirt since I started washing my hands right before round 1, and once more every 2-3 rounds. I also started using a dark brown leather playmat (had it done by a professional leather craftsman) that I clean every once in a while with leather cleaning products. Collects less dirt than normal mats and it's easier to clean than normal mats.

[r3dd09]

I prefer KMC. Anyway I noticed my sleeves are collecting less dirt since I started washing my hands right before round 1, and once more every 2-3 rounds. I also started using a dark brown leather playmat (had it done by a professional leather craftsman) that I clean every once in a while with leather cleaning products. Collects less dirt than normal mats and it's easier to clean than normal mats.

Got a picture of the mat? I've been thinking of making a leather mat. How do you like it?

My 2cents on sleeves. If it's strictly for legacy/75 card decks. I go with KMC matte. I haven't tried the gunmetal sleeves yet, I plan to pick up a few soon.

If it's EDH, price wise I'd go with Dragonshield as you save some dough.

If you buy sleeves in bulk, check out this site: www.potomacdist.com I'm purchasing a case of mixed sleeves soon (don't know if it's KMC or DS yet) to sleeve all the proxy decks I'm making to jump start legacy in my area.

[Naminami]

I think that KMC sleeves are the best for double sleeving but... I recently bought a pack of KMC hyper mat sleeves. They are too short for double sleeving in competetive tournaments because inner sleeve pops out from regular sleeve making it a marked card. Ultra Pros feel quite nice as long as you are playing 1-2 tournaments. The problem with UP sleeves is that the trademark logo makes round mark in the back of the sleeve = marked card. They should just get rid of the logo in sleeves.

[Lord Seth]

I think that KMC sleeves are the best for double sleeving but... I recently bought a pack of KMC hyper mat sleeves. They are too short for double sleeving in competetive tournaments because inner sleeve pops out from regular sleeve making it a marked card. Ultra Pros feel quite nice as long as you are playing 1-2 tournaments. The problem with UP sleeves is that the trademark logo makes round mark in the back of the sleeve = marked card. They should just get rid of the logo in sleeves.Except the logo is in the same place for all sleeves, so it's not a marked card.

Personally I've always been puzzled why Ultra Pro is the only one to bother with a logo. That way you actually know who made it.

[sjmcc13]

I think that KMC sleeves are the best for double sleeving but... I recently bought a pack of KMC hyper mat sleeves. They are too short for double sleeving in competetive tournaments because inner sleeve pops out from regular sleeve making it a marked card. If the inner sleeve is all the same type/make, that should not be a problem as every card is the sleeved the same.

Though I use KMC perfect fit sleeves in my KMC Hyper Mat sleeves and do not have any of the sleeves hanging out of the 6 decks I have double sleeved ATM.

[Julian23]

I think that KMC sleeves are the best for double sleeving but... I recently bought a pack of KMC hyper mat sleeves. They are too short for double sleeving in competetive tournaments because inner sleeve pops out from regular sleeve making it a marked card. Ultra Pros feel quite nice as long as you are playing 1-2 tournaments. The problem with UP sleeves is that the trademark logo makes round mark in the back of the sleeve = marked card. They should just get rid of the logo in sleeves.

No offense, but you seem way too concerned about marked sleeves for someone who doesn't apparently know what marked sleeves are.

[nedleeds]

Why isn't Delver of Secrets a choice?

[Quasim0ff]

https://www.magiccardmarket.eu/Products/Sleeves/80+KMC+Hyper+mat+Sleeves+%28Black%29

These are by far and away the best ones since ultra pro changed how they manufacture sleeves.

[Julian23]

https://www.magiccardmarket.eu/Products/Sleeves/80+KMC+Hyper+mat+Sleeves+%28Black%29

These are by far and away the best ones since ultra pro changed how they manufacture sleeves.

To quote myself from the KMC Hyper mats suck thread (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?27499-KMC-Hyper-mats-suck) (yes, that exists):


KMC HYPER MATS SUCK!

Honestly, you probably don't see me these kind of statements a lot but this time I feel really cheated. Having been a big lover of the KMC Mat Blacks, I bought a pack of KMC Hyper Mats to try out for my Elves deck.

What happened? Out of 80 sleeves, FOUR of them split immediately upon inserting the card. And I'm no moron, I know how to handle sleeves and never ran into this issue while blowing through about 15 packs of KMC Black Mats over the last years. Yes, I play a lot and over the that time I maybe had alltogether 4 sleeves split.

Another issues is that the Hyper Mats are slightly shorter than the Mat Blacks, which gives less protection to the card inside and makes it stick out more easily. I hate that.

Honestly, there's no "maybe you got a bad pack" for me. If people open bad packs this often, chances are the product itself if flawed. I'm going back to Mat Blacks and will never look back.

[sjmcc13]

To quote myself from the KMC Hyper mats suck thread (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?27499-KMC-Hyper-mats-suck) (yes, that exists):

I have been using Hyper Mat's for about a year now, and have yet to split 1 sleeve out of 7-8 packs of black 3 blue and 3 red that I have used for decks...

[god_campbell]

I am a fan of the new Turquoise Dragon shields, they are perfect for double sleeving and I just love how they play, tho I miss my Ultrapro blacks.

[Lord Seth]

Why isn't Delver of Secrets a choice?Er, why would it?

[.Ix]

Anyone else having issues with White Dragon Shields being brittle or prone to damage?

I've used the Green ones for my Elves deck for a long while and haven't had any problems with them, but I use white for all my other decks and they seem to crack at the corners and split very frequently. I've been purchasing white for a couple of years now, and over time I've had over 70 pieces crack at the corners or edges, split, or otherwise mark itself with damage. I've purchased about 5 or 6 packs of 100 to date. The weird thing is, not even one of the green sleeves on my Elves deck has split, and I've had those for about two years longer than the whites. All the cards on all my decks are on KMC Perfect Fits as well, so the only difference is white vs green Dragon Shield sleeves. Are the white sleeves just worse?

[ShiftyKapree]

I use both kinds, lately I've been using dragon shield pink, but I use to use KMC Matte Blue all the time. I just wish KMC made them in 100 for edh decks.

[Dark Ritual]

At first I favored KMC mats. But then I started double sleeving. KMC perfect fits do not mesh well at all with KMC mats for some reason despite being the same company. Tried silver dragonshields with the KMC perfect fits. They fit like a glove and feel fantastic when shuffling and in my hand. So it really depends on whether you're double sleeving or not. With where prices have gone I was pretty much forced to perfect fit my cards to protect them as much as possible. When I first started in 2008 I don't remember seeing perfect fits anywhere because prices were actually reasonable but now? I wouldn't play an underground sea with just one sleeve regardless of set unless the sea was already beat to hell/it couldn't get much worse.

[CabalTherapy]

There aren't words in English which could help me to express how I hate KMC's HyperMat.
If you guys want good sleeves with a nice cut and sustainability, I recommend green Dragon Shields.

[sjmcc13]

But then I started double sleeving. KMC perfect fits do not mesh well at all with KMC mats for some reason despite being the same company. When I first tried double sleeving in black Hyper-Mats I had some issues, but I have had next to no problem fitting the perfect fits into the red and blue hyper mats I have. They also feel slightly different then my black sleeves...

[Quasim0ff]

To quote myself from the KMC Hyper mats suck thread (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?27499-KMC-Hyper-mats-suck) (yes, that exists):

Currently on my 12th pack of KMC's Hyper Matte. The ONLY time I've had to change sleeve is when my OCD claims they are too greasy. yet to rip a single one.

[.Ix]

There aren't words in English which could help me to express how I hate KMC's HyperMat.
If you guys want good sleeves with a nice cut and sustainability, I recommend green Dragon Shields.

Are they actually better than the other colors? It seems that the green sleeves I have are much better than the white sleeves, but I can't be sure as I'm the only one I know with white Dragon Shield sleeves.

[CabalTherapy]

Are they actually better than the other colors? It seems that the green sleeves I have are much better than the white sleeves, but I can't be sure as I'm the only one I know with white Dragon Shield sleeves.

Not sure about this one but I picked up two green boxes at random and both are fine. Maybe 95/100 playable.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

I was given KMC matt, a sleeves I disliked years ago. I played several EDH games and the first sleeve ripped open. I don't understand this, I don't have any kind of such troubles with Dragon Shields.

[HammerAndSickled]

For what it's worth, over 6-7 years of playing magic, sleeving first Ultra-Pro, then Dragon Shield, and now KMC, I personally have NEVER split or damaged a sleeve. Yet when I lend decks to people or let opponents shuffle my decks, I have occasionally had sleeves split from others handling them. This leads me to believe that the most important factor here is shuffling technique, not sleeve manufacture. Some people are just really rough on cards, smashing them together and riffling them like playing cards. I just do a simple overhand side shuffle, interlacing the cards, then cut somewhere in the middle, and repeat like 20 times. If your cards make an audible noise while shuffling, you're doing it too hard.

[Julian23]

It's not during the riffle or whatever other kind of rough shuffle technique, that my Hyper Mats split. It's during the sleeving process were I already lost like 4-5 of the entire batch.

Other than that, it's during that exact technique you describe, that I have the most sleeves splitting, because the translucent front part gets spliced from the black back by the other sleeve.

Doesn't happen to me with KMC Matt Black or Dragon Shields. Happens a LOT with KMC Hyper Matt.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

Yep, that's right. I noticed that the sleeve was ripped in the middle of the vertical edge, so it seems like it was cut by the card.

[Zombiesquisher]

For what it's worth, over 6-7 years of playing magic, sleeving first Ultra-Pro, then Dragon Shield, and now KMC, I personally have NEVER split or damaged a sleeve. Yet when I lend decks to people or let opponents shuffle my decks, I have occasionally had sleeves split from others handling them. This leads me to believe that the most important factor here is shuffling technique, not sleeve manufacture. Some people are just really rough on cards, smashing them together and riffling them like playing cards. I just do a simple overhand side shuffle, interlacing the cards, then cut somewhere in the middle, and repeat like 20 times. If your cards make an audible noise while shuffling, you're doing it too hard.

You are an advocate for everything I've been saying for 4 years to my friends.

[Dark Ritual]

I had the opportunity to shuffle KMC hyper mats this past weekend. I did one shuffle (literally.) Immediately hated them.

The only dragon shields that are different are the turquoise ones I think. All the other colors seem to be the same in all aspects except color.

[XdeckX]

I've always loved Dragon Shields. They are by far the best sleeves I've used. The only issue is the length of the sleeves. Even within the same pack the length of the sleeves are different. Once I got a warning for that at a GPT and switched to KMC (just not the matte ones) Thats about 2 years ago.

Have the Dragon Shields changed since then making them all the same length?? I would love to switch back.

[Quasim0ff]

I've always loved Dragon Shields. They are by far the best sleeves I've used. The only issue is the length of the sleeves. Even within the same pack the length of the sleeves are different. Once I got a warning for that at a GPT and switched to KMC (just not the matte ones) Thats about 2 years ago.

Have the Dragon Shields changed since then making them all the same length?? I would love to switch back.

They've gotten WORSE...

[Tea]

Has anyone noticed that Dragon shields bend the cards? I've bought a pack, but never used them because of this. My problem with KMC is that the opening seems to be relatively wide. As for doublesleeving, I think the sleeves are too tight. (Not the perfect-fit sleeves, but the regular ones you pull over them)

[H]

I figure it's better to dig up an old thread rather than make a new one of a simple question.

I've heard that some of the "older" color Dragon Shields are now being made with the "newer" process (flat, more consistent height), does anyone know if this is true? More specifically, the Gold colored ones. I have bought a pack of the Turquoise and Copper and I really like the new design, but I prefer the dark blue or gold colored ones.

Also, if the the Golds are available in the newer design, has anyone ordered from Potomic Distribution lately? Are they shipping the old colors with the new designs?

[Darkenslight]

I figure it's better to dig up an old thread rather than make a new one of a simple question.

I've heard that some of the "older" color Dragon Shields are now being made with the "newer" process (flat, more consistent height), does anyone know if this is true? More specifically, the Gold colored ones. I have bought a pack of the Turquoise and Copper and I really like the new design, but I prefer the dark blue or gold colored ones.

Also, if the the Golds are available in the newer design, has anyone ordered from Potomic Distribution lately? Are they shipping the old colors with the new designs?

I recently bought some Dark Blue ones, and they seem to be the newer design, and it's pretty good actually. Not like the patterned Ultra Pro ones...ugh. Falling apart after less than a week.

[caw_86]

Im a dragon shield user. I have never used kmc, never had a reason to switch. never split a sleeve with DS. fits double sleeved and are extremely durable. they seemed to have fixed the issue with uneven height, i havent got a box of them that had size issues in a few years now. I just have to deal with cleaning them every so often, they do need to be replaced more often if you like foils, but that is probably true of any sleeve

however, the new turquoise have noticeable changes that make them worse imo. they have sharper edges which makes them uncomfortable to shuffle over 9 rounds. they are flat as opposed to the classic DS curve, which i like for riffling the shit out of my decks, and i noticed a flaw in the seams, they dont split but i noticed that they just start coming apart, mostly on the bottom edge.

also never buy the yellow color DS, for some reason they do not like to shuffle period

[EpicLevelCommoner]

I prefer Hyper Matte KMC's, mostly because I like the texture compared to the Super KMC's or Dragon Shield's.

Also, as far as shuffling goes, never shotgun shuffle. Especially with a semi-competitive legacy deck. Had to yell at my friend who shotgunned an old Nic Fit list of mine with three Jace, the Mind Sculptor, four duals, eight fetches . . . yeah . . . don't ever do that.

[Richard Cheese]

I prefer Hyper Matte KMC's, mostly because I like the texture compared to the Super KMC's or Dragon Shield's.

Also, as far as shuffling goes, never shotgun shuffle. Especially with a semi-competitive legacy deck. Had to yell at my friend who shotgunned an old Nic Fit list of mine with three Jace, the Mind Sculptor, four duals, eight fetches . . . yeah . . . don't ever do that.

What's shotgun shuffling, other than a web comic I didn't know about?

[EpicLevelCommoner]

What's shotgun shuffling, other than a web comic I didn't know about?

Its what my friend calls the standard poker shuffling where you take the deck, split in two, then proceed to bend the backs of the cards with your thumb, then letting them fall on top of each other.

Basically, the bending part is what i dislike.

[Klazam]

Thats called a riffle.


Im dragonshield all the way. Goddamned indestructible things. Just dont use white- picks up dirt fast.

[thecrav]

[QUOTE=H;851783]I figure it's better to dig up an old thread rather than make a new one of a simple question.

I've heard that some of the "older" color Dragon Shields are now being made with the "newer" process (flat, more consistent height), does anyone know if this is true? More specifically, the Gold colored ones. I have bought a pack of the Turquoise and Copper and I really like the new design, but I prefer the dark blue or gold colored ones.
[QUOTE]

I've heard the same thing, also specifically regarding the turquoise ones so there's at least a +1 to that rumor.

[H]

I've heard the same thing, also specifically regarding the turquoise ones so there's at least a +1 to that rumor.

Well, the Turquoise ones are all "new" because that color didn't exist before the style change. I've bought them and they are flat and even for sure.

[Warr]

A friend of mine also reported the changes in the Dragon Shield Gold sleeves. He was working to gradually get his collection sleeved in the same sleeves and he was PISSED about the color changes, and rightfully so. This is also not the first time that the Gold has changed (they used to be thinner about 3-4 years ago, to the point where you couldn't legally use a double-faced card).

Luckily, I currently use Silver and have a stockpile saved up, but I am just as concerned. I love the durability and regularly promote Dragon Shields despite the incidents of poor quality control, but making a arbitrary change to the color would be a deal-breaker if it happened to me.

--Warr

[H]

So the color of the Gold ones are now different? As in lighter or darker?

[The_Dingo]

In my experience the KMC mattes last a long time, shuffle nicely, and are fairly wear resistant. The hyper mattes get hyper grubby hyper quickly.

[Warr]

So the color of the Gold ones are now different? As in lighter or darker?

I got that information second hand so let me verify.

[H]

I got that information second hand so let me verify.

Thanks, I would definitely like them flat and consistent heights, but I'm not sure I'd like them if they were a lighter color.

[Warr]

Still trying to a dig a little deeper on this one. So there are 2 versions of gold with different SKUs.

Gold: http://www.directdamage.net/catalog/dragon_shield/dragon_shield_box_of_100_in_gold/121193
"New Gold": http://www.directdamage.net/catalog/dragon_shield/dragon_shield_box_of_100_in_new_gold/121573

The New Gold are the only stock number offered on Arcane Tinmen's (manufacturer's) site.

Trying to figure out if the change from Gold to New Gold was recent (like as of this year) or it's the change in gold sleeves from a couple years ago. I remember Dragon Shield's gold sleeves used to be light enough you could see through them so they wouldn't be legal for double-sided cards.

[H]

Hmmm, I definitely bought the pack of Gold ones I have now within the last 2 years and they are quite dark and opaque, certainly not see through. I'm not sure when they would have made that change though.

It seems that the AT-100XX model numbers are all new but I don't know if that means they are all on that newer process like the Turquoise and Copper or not.

[Anarky87]

This is kind of unrelated to which sleeve is better. Is there a way to alleviate all the air that gets trapped in the Dragon Shields when you double sleeve? Every time I use DS my deck ends up looking like a commander deck and almost becomes impossible to shuffle.

Some people have said it goes away after a couple shuffles, but I've gone several tournaments and the air still remains.

[Quasim0ff]

This is kind of unrelated to which sleeve is better. Is there a way to alleviate all the air that gets trapped in the Dragon Shields when you double sleeve? Every time I use DS my deck ends up looking like a commander deck and almost becomes impossible to shuffle.

Some people have said it goes away after a couple shuffles, but I've gone several tournaments and the air still remains.
I usually just squeeze it, ie take 10 cards, place them in a pile and press down on them with the inside of my hand removing all the air.

[cab0747]

This is kind of unrelated to which sleeve is better. Is there a way to alleviate all the air that gets trapped in the Dragon Shields when you double sleeve? Every time I use DS my deck ends up looking like a commander deck and almost becomes impossible to shuffle.

Some people have said it goes away after a couple shuffles, but I've gone several tournaments and the air still remains.

I put mine in a deck box and then add some garbage commons. This squeezes the deck and in about 24 hours you won't be playing with a stack of balloons.

[Darkenslight]

This is kind of unrelated to which sleeve is better. Is there a way to alleviate all the air that gets trapped in the Dragon Shields when you double sleeve? Every time I use DS my deck ends up looking like a commander deck and almost becomes impossible to shuffle.

Some people have said it goes away after a couple shuffles, but I've gone several tournaments and the air still remains.

Are you using the Inverse method for the Perfect Fits (PF opening at the bottom fo the card, then sleeve) or the Converse (Both PF and DS opening at the same end)? I ask because when I switched to the Invers,e whilst the deck size was slightly larger, there was considerably less air trapped inside when I pushed down.

[Sloshthedark]

Are you using the Inverse method for the Perfect Fits (PF opening at the bottom fo the card, then sleeve) or the Converse (Both PF and DS opening at the same end)? I ask because when I switched to the Invers,e whilst the deck size was slightly larger, there was considerably less air trapped inside when I pushed down.

wtf would anyone use the "Converse"? you lose the protection this way .. // just press out the air it remains so after a game or two

[Anarky87]

I'll probably try a mix of the methods mentioned above. I noticed today when I was cleaning some sleeves that it must have pushed some air out with it; it seemed pretty manageable afterward.

That was the problem I kept having. I'd show someone my giant balloon deck, they'd say just play a few games and it'll all be gone. I'd play an entire tournaments worth of games (constantly compressing the deck before each game), and my deck would still be enormous and they'd just shrug and tell me they didn't know.

I'll give some of these tips a try. Thanks.

[Claymore1]

Just out of curiousity, since the discussion is KMC vs Dragonshields. Is Player's Choice and KMC the same thing? I was wondering because that's what the store owner told me.

[snorlaxcom]

This is kind of unrelated to which sleeve is better. Is there a way to alleviate all the air that gets trapped in the Dragon Shields when you double sleeve? Every time I use DS my deck ends up looking like a commander deck and almost becomes impossible to shuffle.

Some people have said it goes away after a couple shuffles, but I've gone several tournaments and the air still remains.

I had a similar issue with a new pack of kmc hyper mat. Fixed it after I pushed the pf card into the kmc sleeve but making sure to stop about 3mm from the bottom of the regular sleeve. I compressed the sleeve at this point to have the majority of air escape and then pushed the pf card to the bottom. I then compressed again and they have been fine since.

You may run into an issue with curling or already curled foils since there is space between the pf and foil curvature more often. On these cards I have to compress again or just say screw it and trade for flat foil, nonfoil, or play on.

[Avatar of Light]

It seems that the AT-100XX model numbers are all new but I don't know if that means they are all on that newer process like the Turquoise and Copper or not.

Bought a box of the "New Gold" about a month ago. Seems like it's still the old process since I ended up with uneven sleeves (ironically, 4 x 26, each batch at a different length).

[H]

Bought a box of the "New Gold" about a month ago. Seems like it's still the old process since I ended up with uneven sleeves (ironically, 4 x 26, each batch at a different length).

Thanks, that is what I was figuring. Have to decide now if I should get a case now or not.

[death]

http://youtu.be/3bu1h0gtu2U

The new Ultra Pros are crap compared to the older generation. I have since used KMC matt blacks and they are durable but lately the ones I received were narrower, not ideal if you double sleeve. The KMC metallics peel easily so don't get those. KMC Super or Dragon Shield are my next sleeves.

[thecrav]

Someone just started a thread on Reddit about this. (http://www.reddit.com/r/magicTCG/comments/2p1iby/is_there_any_truth_behind_the_different_colors_of/) There's not much there now, but you may get some useful information out of it later.

[death]

From what I've gathered KMC HYPER MAT and Dragon Shield FUSION are the latest to come out from both manufacturers. The newer KMC HYPER are less durable than the old MAT and the FUSION are narrower than normal. They are both cut shorter than regular which could be a problem, the top edge of the cards could stick out. Another thing to consider for those who double sleeve.

[H]

The new Ultra Pros are crap compared to the older generation. I have since used KMC matt blacks and they are durable but lately the ones I received were narrower, not ideal if you double sleeve. The KMC metallics peel easily so don't get those. KMC Super or Dragon Shield are my next sleeves.

Yeah, all my recent experiances with Ultra-Pros are that they are garbage. I have some really old Ultra-Pro sleeves and those were pretty much indestructible. The new ones, on the other hand, split if you look at them too hard.

I used to love the KMC sleeves. Once I started double sleeving though, I was really turned off by the fact that some colors were not consistant in fitting the perfect fits in them. I do have over 1,000 Super Orange sleeves that I got for a cube, but over time I have found that (for me) the KMCs get too sticky too quickly (could just be that I am a greasy SOB, or something maybe).


Someone just started a thread on Reddit about this. (http://www.reddit.com/r/magicTCG/comments/2p1iby/is_there_any_truth_behind_the_different_colors_of/) There's not much there now, but you may get some useful information out of it later.

Thanks, I saw another reddit post from a while back that discussed this too. There were talks that Dragon Shield wanted the flat and even cut of the new sleeves and the slightly higher durability of the old style and so they are probably experimenting.


From what I've gathered KMC HYPER MAT and Dragon Shield FUSION are the latest to come out from both manufacturers. The newer KMC HYPER are less durable than the old MAT and the FUSION are narrower than normal. They are both cut shorter than regular which could be a problem, the top edge of the cards could stick out. Another thing to consider for those who double sleeve.

I might try some HYPER MATs in the near future, I am pretty sure my order from Potomac will qualify for a free pack. I think I am going to just bite the bullet and order a case of the Gold Dragon Shields. The curl doesn't really bother me all that much, I just like the more consistent cut of the "newer style."

[MGB]

I honestly don't know why the answer just isn't "KMC Hyper Matte" for all of these questions about which sleeves to get. They've been FAR and AWAY the best sleeves for me since I started playing Magic. All of these issues with ripping and tearing have never occurred for me, and they consistently look and feel like the best out of all of the available sleeves.

[death]

I ordered Dragon Shield Coppers because the sleeves have clearance for KMC perfect fits, they lay flat and I heard the suffling experience is also great ;) I have no doubt they're more durable than kmc HYPER mats and ultra pros.


http://i.imgur.com/TFD2SZS.jpg
Copper (left) vs. Fusion (right)

[Tormod]

I ordered Dragon Shield Coppers because the sleeves have clearance for KMC perfect fits, they lay flat and I heard the suffling experience is also great ;) I have no doubt they're more durable than kmc HYPER mats and ultra pros.


http://i.imgur.com/TFD2SZS.jpg
Copper (left) vs. Fusion (right)

curious: Why do you have one stack face up and one stack face down?

Are the cuts different with different colors?

[cab0747]

After going with Hypermats on my decks recently, I have noticed that with heavy shuffling, the hypermats tend to split or break far more often than DS (My Modern Tron deck destroys Hypermats :( ).

I love how the hypermats feel. If I have any deck that doesn't involve a lot of shuffling, I will use them. Otherwise, I will stick with Dragon Shield. Damn shame, I like the hypermats feel better than the DS and they don't seem to attract as much gunk.

[Bobmans]

After going with Hypermats on my decks recently, I have noticed that with heavy shuffling, the hypermats tend to split or break far more often than DS (My Modern Tron deck destroys Hypermats :( ).

I love how the hypermats feel. If I have any deck that doesn't involve a lot of shuffling, I will use them. Otherwise, I will stick with Dragon Shield. Damn shame, I like the hypermats feel better than the DS and they don't seem to attract as much gunk.
I have the same experience with my hypermats. Splitting from the top on one side. They shuffle great and have a great feel.
Also i like the UltraPro ProMatte, but the matte look on the front side makes the cards look so dirty.
Then the other day i bought Dragon Shield orange. The problem with those is that they are soooo slippery that my deck slipped out of my hand all over the floor. Also they get dirty real fast and leaves spots on the backside.
Also non black sleeves are problematic for transform cards. You see them thru the sleeves and the flip mark cards are sooo damn ugly.
I like the looks of the UltraPro with images, because the are black on the frontside. But those are split fast, are too tight and have problems getting double sleeve in with KMC pro fit. UltraPro Fit are also tooo tight and slightly bend cards.
So all in all i am not fond with any of the sleeves on the market, but Black KMC HyperMats are still the better ones i have.

[H]

Apparently Dragon Shields are now made in Matte. No idea if these are made with a process similar to the "new" Turquoise or Copper, or more like the older colors.

Anyone seen these yet? I'd like to try them, but I doubt if my local store has gotten them yet.

[iamajellydonut]

Anyone seen these yet? I'd like to try them, but I doubt if my local store has gotten them yet.

I hadn't even heard of them, but I'd be willing to give them a shot.

[H]

I hadn't even heard of them, but I'd be willing to give them a shot.

Yeah, I was pretty surprised to see them on sale already, considering that I hadn't even heard they were making them. They aren't even listed in on their site yet.

There is a reddit thread (https://www.reddit.com/r/magicTCG/comments/33pp6g/dragon_shield_matte_sleeves/) however I hate that site and trying to read it makes me wish I was illiterate, but I think that no one there has tried them yet.

My main question is how consistent are they cut (especially height-wise)? Secondarily, how flat are they out of the box?

[iamajellydonut]

Also, it doesn't look like you can buy them in the states. Damned if I'll be hit with overseas shipping costs for sleeves.

[H]

Also, it doesn't look like you can buy them in the states. Damned if I'll be hit with overseas shipping costs for sleeves.

Not sure about other sites, but I found them here (http://www.potomacdist.com/detail.asp?itemid=dragshmtbb), you can follow that link back for the whole list with all the colors. I actually need to order some other stuff from that site, but I wanted to try a pack before I add them to what I need.

[ReAnimator]

My local store here in Toronto got these in, so some people in North America have them apparently.
I have no idea how flat they are our of the box or how even the cutting is as i haven't been in to check them out yet. If i find anything out about them i'll post here.

[H]

My local store here in Toronto got these in, so some people in North America have them apparently.
I have no idea how flat they are our of the box or how even the cutting is as i haven't been in to check them out yet. If i find anything out about them i'll post here.

Thanks, I'd appreciate it. I just want a general idea of what I am getting before I buy a case from Potomac (that I linked above).

I'm not sure if Potomac is actually a distributor, or if they got some from a North America distributor, but I feel like my local is usually a step behind on these things. I'll see tonight though, who knows, maybe I'm not giving them enough credit.

[ReAnimator]

If you search "Face to Face Games Toronto" on Facebook, their second most recent post has a pic and they answer some questions about them and have a pic of what they look like out of the box.
:)

[H]

If you search "Face to Face Games Toronto" on Facebook, their second most recent post has a pic and they answer some questions about them and have a pic of what they look like out of the box.
:)

Thanks. Those look very "new process" to me, which would make sense.

I'm going to see if I can find a pack local. If not, I'll probably just buy a case from Potomac next week, as long as I have the money.

[H]

I found they had packs at my local store, so I picked one up to try it last FNM.

Some images of the pack of DS Mattes I got:
http://i.imgur.com/DXjiOb3l.jpg (http://imgur.com/DXjiOb3)

Flat out of the pack and consistently cut.

http://i.imgur.com/zmzNzlAl.jpg (http://imgur.com/zmzNzlA)

I tried to get a picture to show the texture.

http://i.imgur.com/AzoJ28Ml.jpg (http://imgur.com/AzoJ28M)

Definitely less puff once sleeved up new, which was nice.

http://i.imgur.com/yw2G38dl.jpg (http://imgur.com/yw2G38d)

The height of the sleeve is pretty good, I like that they are decently taller than the cards themselves.

They definitely feel significantly different than the old DS sleeves. I think it will take a little time for me to get used to them, but so far I am pretty pleased with them. I wish the shade of blue was a bit different, but that's just a nit pick.

I only played 4 rounds with them, so we'll see how they fare going forward.

[Saboo]

So, I have a foil MM2 Tarmogoyf in my Jund deck and want the best quality of sleeves possible. Given what's currently on the market, would you suggest Dragonshield, KMC Hypermatte, or some other brand? A while back I had some Dragonshields for Legacy that did a fine job protecting my dual lands, but the batches I've used in the last 4 years seem to either dent and wear easily or accumulate little specks of dirt etc easily. I don't want to double sleeve my deck, by the way.

Also, the Fusion Dragonshields do seem to have a lower cut along the upper boarder, and the Copper Dragonshields feel thinner than some of the other color choices (I bought a box of each back in September 2014).

[Darkenslight]

So, I have a foil MM2 Tarmogoyf in my Jund deck and want the best quality of sleeves possible. Given what's currently on the market, would you suggest Dragonshield, KMC Hypermatte, or some other brand? A while back I had some Dragonshields for Legacy that did a fine job protecting my dual lands, but the batches I've used in the last 4 years seem to either dent and wear easily or accumulate little specks of dirt etc easily. I don't want to double sleeve my deck, by the way.

Also, the Fusion Dragonshields do seem to have a lower cut along the upper boarder, and the Copper Dragonshields feel thinner than some of the other color choices (I bought a box of each back in September 2014).

I'd have a look at Ultimate Guard's sleeves. The Supremes from Ultimate Guard, while pimp as all hell, flick easily on the sides and corners.

[Bobmans]

So, I have a foil MM2 Tarmogoyf in my Jund deck and want the best quality of sleeves possible. .... I don't want to double sleeve my deck, by the way.


Not double sleeving will get the top side of cards dirty. It will reduce them from being NM to Exc or worse. If you do not want to double sleeve your duals and goyfs then why bother with searching for the best quality sleeves at all. That said:

The best sleeves i have used where Ultra Pro, Pro Matte's. They Shuffle excellent and have had the best lifespan. Those sleeves do not get dirty fast. Downside is that those matte front sides are not the nicest look for cards, especcially foils show much less. Now the runner up for me has been regular Ultra Pro with one side matte and the front side glossy. About the same quality, but the glossy side gets dirty fast and corners seem to bent. There are also the Ultra Pro with artwork, those are to tight for double sleeve, the are a bit slippery and the split pretty fast. Those sleeves shuffle less nice.
Then i also used Dragonshield. Those are way to slippery and both glossy sides get dirty real fast. Specks on the backside may "mark" the cards aswell.
Last i played with KMC Hyper Mats. Awesome shuffle, but the cards tear in the corner real fast and the glossy side cards dirty really fast.

For coming event GP Lille i have bought KMC Hyper Mat's knowing i will throw them away after. They play really nice and have a nice material look but a very short lifespan.