Is an opponent response if they damage your cards?

[Valtrix]

This was something that I've always wondered, but am very unsure how it handled. I also imagine such a situation is pretty rare anyway, but I am still curious. Say while in a match your opponent accidentally damages one of your cards. Maybe they were shuffling your deck to randomize it and a card slipped out and got bent, or perhaps they played mind control on your creature and mishandled it in some way. Are they responsible in any way for damage done to their opponent's cards?

[Koby]

This was something that I've always wondered, but am very unsure how it handled. I also imagine such a situation is pretty rare anyway, but I am still curious. Say while in a match your opponent accidentally damages one of your cards. Maybe they were shuffling your deck to randomize it and a card slipped out and got bent, or perhaps they played mind control on your creature and mishandled it in some way. Are they responsible in any way for damage done to their opponent's cards?

Players should respect other players property as a given, and as a tournament rule. Blatant destruction of other players' property and tournament material is grounds for a DQ at best and a ban from the DCI at worst.

For accidental/incidental damage, the HJ can issue official tournament proxy to replace the card so that the tournament can continue. I don't think there is any requirement for the offending player to replace/repair/repay for the damage, but it's not out of bounds to expect good will in that respect.

If you're concerned about an opponent mishandling your cards, you can always call a judge over to act as a mediator.

MTG Tournament Rules:

1.10 Players
Players are responsible for:
• Behaving in a respectful manner toward tournament officials, other tournament participants, and
spectators and refraining from unsporting conduct at all times.
...
Players who do not fulfill their responsibilities may be subject to penalties and review by the DCI. Wizards of the
Coast and the DCI reserve the right to suspend or revoke a player's membership without prior notice for any
reason they deem necessary.

3.4 Proxy Cards
A proxy card is used during competition to represent an Authorized Game Card that has been accidentally
damaged or excessively worn in the current tournament (including damaged or misprinted Limited product) as
determined solely by the Head Judge. Proxies are not allowed as substitutes for cards damaged intentionally or
through negligence.

5.4 Unsporting Conduct
Unsporting conduct will not be tolerated at any time. Tournament participants must behave in a polite and
respectful manner. Unsporting conduct includes, but is not limited to:
• Using profanity
• Acting in a threatening manner
• Arguing with, acting belligerently toward, or harassing tournament officials, players or spectators
• Failure to follow the instructions of a tournament official
All incidents of unsporting conduct are subject to further DCI review.

[rxavage]

Damn right I'm holding the party who damaged my card/s responsible. If I were to damage someone else's property I would feel responsible and obligated to rectify the mistake, which is why I take great care and caution when handling other's belongings.

[John Cox]

If your worried that someone may damage your cards either intentionally or that they're just an idiot you can have a judge come over and shuffle your cards for the other player.

There's also no reason for the other player to touch your cards other than shuffling. Any time they would select a card from your hand you can ask them to say it. Any time they would touch a permanent, again, they can say the cards name.

The only time your opponent will have to touch your cards is shuffling/cutting and you can have a judge do that on the grounds that the other player seems suspicious.

[Sloshthedark]

In the only accident I have heard about judge issued a proxy and rest was up to players to settle.

[cdr]

The only time your opponent will have to touch your cards is shuffling/cutting and you can have a judge do that on the grounds that the other player seems suspicious.

You have to have a very good reason to have a judge shuffle instead of your opponent. "Seems suspicious" is generally not a very good reason by itself.

[TerribleTim68]

So I had this pop up at the last SCG Open I attended. This is why I'm NOT a fan of the "Your opponent may choose to shuffle your deck" rule. These cards are NOT cheap, they are NOT simply "a game piece". They represent a major investment for some us. But the reality is that ther is no law that says they are responsible. I'd be willing to bet that somewhere by signing up to play you released all liability for these kind of issues as well.

That being said, I just try to watch what is going on. I had one opponent who was clearly shuffling his deck the way a Vegas dealer would shuffle a stack of Poker cards, flexing them in the middle. Having noticed this, when he picked up my deck to shuffle it I quickly stopped him and said "Please do not bend them, that's all I ask." He did not bend them and proceeded to pile shuffle them instead. I also made sure to thank him when he was done shuffling my deck since he did what I asked. I think you'll find that most players are not out to wreck your cards, most players understand your concerns and most players are willing to cooperate as long as you enter the conversation in a non-combative manner. It surprises me how far a simple "please" and "thank you" can go and how many people forget that.

You have an honest concern, as does most every other player. I'll continue to hate that rule. But I'll also continue to be vigilant in watching out for the safety of my cards. It is what it is.

I have to wonder if you had a card wrecked in the manner you are asking about or if this is just something that worries you.

[Kich867]

You have to have a very good reason to have a judge shuffle instead of your opponent. "Seems suspicious" is generally not a very good reason by itself.

I went to an event once where the player permanently damaged most of my sleeves with his shuffling, just to sort of draw a line here--is that something I could have called a judge for?

A lot of the bottoms of the sleeves were blown out and most of the edges were bent, luckily I double sleeved all my cards so they were fine, but I had to buy new sleeves on the way out.

[cdr]

I went to an event once where the player permanently damaged most of my sleeves with his shuffling, just to sort of draw a line here--is that something I could have called a judge for?

A lot of the bottoms of the sleeves were blown out and most of the edges were bent, luckily I double sleeved all my cards so they were fine, but I had to buy new sleeves on the way out.

If your opponent is actually damaging something, sure. Start with politely asking them not to shuffle that way, though - that'll be enough 90% of the time.

I've run into prima donnas who don't want their opponent to do anything other than pile their cards - sorry, actual randomization is required at a tournament and cards can be shuffled in a number of ways without damaging them.

[sdematt]

I don't mind if my opponent shuffles my cards, but as soon as they start riffling the Beta duals, that's when the request to stop comes out. If they continue to do it, Judge!

-Matt

[nedleeds]

Well it's up to you to randomize your deck. A cut or couple of quick cuts should be sufficient from your opponent. If you feel your opponent isn't randomizing his deck you should call a judge. Right? If I have to riffle your deck I'm implying you aren't randomizing your deck or I'm trying to vamp tutor a land to the top of your stack.

[Tammit67]

Well it's up to you to randomize your deck. A cut or couple of quick cuts should be sufficient from your opponent. If you feel your opponent isn't randomizing his deck you should call a judge. Right? If I have to riffle your deck I'm implying you aren't randomizing your deck or I'm trying to vamp tutor a land to the top of your stack.

You should always properly randomize your opponents deck and your own. To say it is your responsibility for your deck alone is foolish: you have so much more to gain from a non-random deck, so why put you in charge of it?

If your opponent isn't sufficiently shuffling, you can either shuffle properly and/or call a judge.

[cdr]

Absolutely call a judge if your opponent doesn't shuffle sufficiently. You should still shuffle your opponent's deck - it's an important check on otherwise undetected deck stacking. I always pile my opponent's deck to count it and then give it a few shuffles.

[Asthereal]

... the reality is that there is no law that says they are responsible.
Are you kidding me? Of course there is. Not in MTG rulings, because national law overrides MTG rulings, and therefor the is no reason to add such an MTG ruling.

In the Netherlands, the law states: 'If one is to cause damage to other person's goods, one must compensate for that damage.' Whether the damage is caused interntionally or unintentionally is irrelevant. You cause someone else damage, so you compensate. Every decent country in the world has such a law. It may not always be formulated in the same way, but the meaning is always the same: if you cause damage, you have to compensate.

[door]

At the last BoM there was such an accident with a vintage player from Germany. His opponent was shuffling his deck and unintentionally damaged his japanese foil double signed Brainstorm. As far as I know the damage was enough for it to be no longer tournament legal. His opponent didn't compensate anything and the judge couldn't help. :frown:

[sdematt]

Wow, that sucks. So, if that happens, you just have to follow the advice of Sylvester Stallone:

"What's the plan?"

"Track 'em, find 'em, kill 'em."

-Matt

[TerribleTim68]

Are you kidding me? Of course there is. Not in MTG rulings, because national law overrides MTG rulings, and therefor the is no reason to add such an MTG ruling.

In the Netherlands, the law states: 'If one is to cause damage to other person's goods, one must compensate for that damage.' Whether the damage is caused interntionally or unintentionally is irrelevant. You cause someone else damage, so you compensate. Every decent country in the world has such a law. It may not always be formulated in the same way, but the meaning is always the same: if you cause damage, you have to compensate.

That sounds great, but good luck getting it to stand up in court. While you may win the case, you're still going to go through court hearings, lawyer fees, time off of work, etc, etc. What's all that worth to you? I'm just saying, if someone tried to make me pay for damaged cards due to shuffling at a tournament I would immediately be on the phone with my lawyer and I'm pretty sure the first place he's going to go is that entry form you signed when you registered for that tournament. Chances are it has some fine print that says something about releasing all liability. If that isn't enough to stop the case there, then it's off to litigation to argue over whether or not you knew the chances of something like this happening in the environment you subjected yourself and your property to. I get that there may be some random blanket law that says something like you posted. But if that actually held up then people wouldn't be getting away with all the crap they do these days.

Liek I said, I find it easier to just respect the other players, treat them the way you would want to be treated, ask nicely and most the time you'll find they will respect you. It'll keep you from ending up in that position to begin with.

[Damoxx]

I find it easier to just respect the other players, treat them the way you would want to be treated, ask nicely and most the time you'll find they will respect you. It'll keep you from ending up in that position to begin with.

Funny how this can solve so many things in this world, but that's a whole different can-o-worms.

[nedleeds]

You should always properly randomize your opponents deck and your own. To say it is your responsibility for your deck alone is the rule

You are responsible for randomizing your own deck. Not doing so is against the rules.


if your opponent isn't sufficiently shuffling, you can either shuffle properly and/or call a judge.

You should call a judge. Theres no need to riffle shuffle your opponents deck if he already randomized it.


Wow, that sucks. So, if that happens, you just have to follow the advice of Sylvester Stallone:

"What's the plan?"

"Track 'em, find 'em, kill 'em."

-Matt

Wow ... sly quotes could be its own thread. 'Live for nothing ... or die for something.'

[cdr]

Again, you should shuffle your opponent's deck because it's an important anti-cheating (and anti-laziness) measure. The rules allow and encourage you to shuffle your opponent's deck.

Cheating is rare, but much like not calling a judge for game rule violations encourages Bertoncini-style "sloppy" cheating, not shuffling encourages deck stacking cheats.

[nedleeds]

I guess what I am saying is pay attention to your opponent as he shuffles. If it looks like a patterned pile (i.e. double nickel, 3rd stack or any other well known cheat) you should consider calling a judge or request that your opponent riffle a few times or push shuffle 6-7 times.

What I don't like is when I riffle shuffle my own multi thousand dollar deck carefully 6-8 times, and randomize my deck. Only to have my opponent take it and begin push shuffling and border line looking at the bottom of my deck.

If I have randomized my deck you should be able to perform a simple cut or multi-cut.

If you feel I have not randomized you should call a judge and not take it upon yourself to shuffle my deck.

It should really be that simple, then the whole issue of opponents damaging your cards is moot. The issue of your opponent peeking is moot.

I understand also that people are doing what they can get away with, and that I can go home if I don't like the floor rules but I'm just saying I can't see how your opponent riffling or push shuffling is necessary if you have sufficiently randomized your deck. If your opponent vampiric tutored a card to the top a few cuts will stop that. But if you actually think that happened, you should call a judge.

[cdr]

Most players are not capable of detecting even simple deck cheats, and even if they are they aren't usually paying attention.

In the end, cards are made to be shuffled. A reasonably performed shuffle - riffle or otherwise - is not going to damage Magic cards. If you have mint beta duals or double-signed foil japanese Brainstorms that you can't stand to see bent even a little, maybe you should consider not playing them in competitive REL tournaments.

[TerribleTim68]

. . . The rules allow and encourage you to shuffle your opponent's deck. . .

Yup, it does. I still don't like that it encourages them to shuffle my deck because that's when things can go wrong and card values can be mutiliated. It's such a double edge sword. O nthe one hadn, it does help stop cheating, I get that. But on the other hand, this is a collector card game. The key there being "collector", which means collector values and prices. These aren't your average poker cards that you just go buy a new deck from Walgreens or something. These are collector items that we play with. I wish the rules erred more on the side of "Please don't let people touch my expensive cards".

But, it is what it is. So we deal with it, like I dealt with it at the last Open and like I'm sure I'll deal with it again at the next Open.

[AriLax]

MTR 3.9:

"Players may request to have a judge shuffle their cards rather than the opponent; this request will be honored only at a judge’s discretion"

I have had numerous opponents get upset over how I shuffle (often due to the fact their deck is all foil or triple sleeved, making many randomization methods harder to perform or much more likely to result in a looking at extra cards penalty due to things flipping mid shuffle). I merely tell them this is an option, and they usually take it.

[TerribleTim68]

And again, it's all in how you approach the conversation. You present your opponent, who may be worried, a better option to help take the stress out of the situation. I say props to you for being a gentleman right from the start. That's the way it should work. :cool:

[SpikeyMikey]

Yup, it does. I still don't like that it encourages them to shuffle my deck because that's when things can go wrong and card values can be mutiliated. It's such a double edge sword. O nthe one hadn, it does help stop cheating, I get that. But on the other hand, this is a collector card game. The key there being "collector", which means collector values and prices. These aren't your average poker cards that you just go buy a new deck from Walgreens or something. These are collector items that we play with. I wish the rules erred more on the side of "Please don't let people touch my expensive cards".

But, it is what it is. So we deal with it, like I dealt with it at the last Open and like I'm sure I'll deal with it again at the next Open.

I guess this is where the line between player and collector falls. I am more concerned with game integrity than I am with card values. I buy cards because I like the game, not because they're valuable. While I believe that you should be careful with your opponents stuff, I can't agree with saying that the rules should err on the side of price integrity over game integrity.

[TeenieBopper]

If you have mint beta duals or double-signed foil japanese Brainstorms that you can't stand to see bent even a little, maybe you should consider not playing them in competitive REL tournaments.

A million times this.