Zac Hill: "I'll be real with you. We messed up with Snapcaster Mage."

[RaNDoMxGeSTuReS]

Linky. (http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtg%2Fdaily%2Fld%2F191)

He talks about the effects of Snapcaster Mage in Standard and its interaction with Mana Leak, lightly touches on Legacy and talks more about Cavern of Souls.

Was Snapcaster Mage really a mistake?

Discuss.

[Shawn]

Alarm bells were going off in my head when the best creatures from INN were blue, cheaply costed, and some had hexproof: Delver, Snapcaster, Geist of Saint Traft, Invisible Stalker. Hexproof is such a horrible mechanic.

[death]

I'll be real with you. We messed up with Snapcaster Mage.

I'm not going to sit here and look you in the eye and tell you that Snapcaster Mage is a fair Magic card. Nor am I going to blame any of my colleagues for the problem: I worked with Tiago Chan to design it, and by the time we realized exactly how powerful it was in concert with the abundance of one-mana cantrips in Standard, the card was already out the door.

I hope they don't fucking ban the card in legacy especially now after I've acquired foil copies of it, not to mention spent $$$ building decks around it. I was the first one to call this card out during the ban Brainstorm fever. Months passed, nothing. I can't take any more of this shit, not fucking now DCI.

[Gheizen64]

Everyone that saw this card said at first that it was overpowered. Maybe test a bit the card before printing it? Maybe don't print it in blue that has the best instant? Dunno, R&D seems to be a bunch of inexperienced players sometimes.

[Tao]

Ok, so I read the article and learned something. I learned that MANA LEAK is the problem in Standard. I didn't knew that. All the time I thought that awfully designed cards like Moorland Haunt, Snapcaster Mage, Geist of Saint Traft and Invisible Stalker were the problem. And not Mana Leak which would probably make every "10 best designed cards of all time" and "10 most powerful but inherently fair cards of all time" list.

But seriously, WTF was article, I am raging!!!!!!!!!!!! Fuck that! The explanation is one-sided and only cares for covering up how incredibly badly they fucked up when they printed Snapcaster, Haunt, Geist and Stalker in the same Standard format. Yes, sure it fixes the percentages if UW can't counter a T5 Titan and they can't kill them until then but means not that it is a fun game, this means it is fucking solitaire.

[dontbiteitholmes]

Yay, another thread bitching about Blue cards based on an article not even about Legacy and similar to another thread on the board quoting the same article but bitching about a different card. Quick, someone punch me in the dick so I'll know I'm not dreaming.

[bruizar]

What a talentless fuck. Seriously...



One of the problems is that Mana Leak is simply a much more powerful card than we would be comfortable printing under modern development rules


Mana Leak is a relic of a bygone era.

YET REPRINT IT IN M12?


"You guys are power creeping so hard."

"Hmm. I don't think we are. After all, there are all kinds of spells that we would never print nowadays that ran rampant in old environments, such as Compulsive Research, Force Spike, Remand, 'Signets,' etc."
LOL, Comparing Signets to Snapcasters, or even Cavern of Souls. Nice one.



If I had to cut costs at Hasbro I'd sure as hell know which division to take out.

[Aggro_zombies]

YET REPRINT IT IN M12?
You know, once upon a time, Lightning Bolt was considered too powerful to reprint. Sometimes letting cards loose in Standard again can confirm whether or not they're still as powerful as they were. In this case, what he's saying is that they were on the fence about Mana Leak before, since it's been, you know, very, very good in basically every Standard environment it's been in, and now they've decided that maybe it's too good.

Whether that's because it's surrounded by a bunch of powerful blue creatures is another matter. They've clearly had their eyes on Mana Leak as a problem card for a while.

And really, even though Mana Leak is garbage in this format, that doesn't mean it isn't too powerful for what it is. There are these things called "smaller formats" where the power threshold is lower, and cards can be legitimately overpowered there. I mean, Force Spike would be ridiculously annoying in Standard right now, and it's garbage in Legacy (largely because Daze exists, okay, but still).


LOL, Comparing Signets to Snapcasters, or even Cavern of Souls. Nice one.
First: we don't know what Cavern's likely impact is going to be - you're presuming it's overpowered when it might not be. Second: all of those cards were very defining in the Standard formats they were in. Signets allowed both free and easy mana fixing and acceleration for control decks of that era, which made it easy for them to support second and third colors at little to no cost - sort of like what Reflecting Pool and the Vivid lands would do again a year or two later. Because of the Signets, control decks could realistically ramp into quality high-end threats while Wrathing, Researching, and Remanding along the way. It was pretty rough for aggro decks of that area to keep up with a control deck that was running well.

So yes, in that sense, Snapcaster is like Signets: it's a defining card for a set of very powerful archetypes that currently dominate Standard.


If I had to cut costs at Hasbro I'd sure as hell know which division to take out.
God, what's with all the vitriol for R&D these days? Would you prefer we go back to Urza block for every set? Just because Tom LaPille said some offensive and/or uninformed things about this format a couple times doesn't mean everyone who works at Wizards is a drooling idiot.

[phonics]

Not to join the bandwagon or anything, but what did they think would happen when they printed the best aggressively costed creatures in blue?

[Zombie]

The same when they printed a tribe all with flying and flash in blue in a format with Rune Snag and Cryptic Command? I mean, it won't be a problem surely?

[Tao]

The same when they printed a tribe all with flying and flash in blue in a format with Rune Snag and Cryptic Command? I mean, it won't be a problem surely?

But the problem with Faeries was not Rune Snag! The problem was Bitterblossom and that racing a deck with four Cryptic Command in Standard is not realistic.

And in the current Standard the problem is not Mana Leak, the problem is that Delver requires cheap spot removal while Snapcaster, Moorland Haunt and Geist laugh at cheap spot removal. Mana Leak has been and always will be a perfectly fair card.

[Hof]

So they are releasing a new land that they "expect to define almost every format in which it can be played", "that everyone could play", and that "will leave its mark on every format". And they are releasing this card at rarity RARE, knowing very well that this will make a playset cost in the neighborhood of 100$. So they know that anyone anywhere playing ANY format with "decks playing as few as four creatures, and as many as thirty" will have to invest 100$ or more to acquire a playset of this rare, format defining, five-color land. And this is just one new card. The reserved list clearly isn't the only major barrier to entry of Legacy, the influx of power creeping new rares and mythics is becoming a real problem now.

[KevinTrudeau]

His conjectures concerning Snapcaster Mage (not including Modern and Vintage, for I know not its power level in those formats) and Mana Leak in Standard are just completely wrong. Snapcaster is actually a pretty well-designed card (again, from a Legacy and Standard lens). Judging by Mr. Hill's inference, he lacks a certain (obviously necessary considering his position in the company) fundamental understanding of proper design of the game as did his predecessor, Mr. LaPille, though I'm certainly not putting Zac in the same boat as Tom as of yet.

[SpikeyMikey]

Actually, Aggro, this is more proof that everyone at Wizards IS retarded. Mana Leak is too powerful? Do I even need to explain what's wrong with that? I remember playing in a Standard format where you had Foil, Thwart, Daze, Counterspell, Absorb, Undermine and several off counters like Prohibit and Rethink. The best deck in the format? Fires of Yavimaya. There were several playable control decks, Counter-Rebel, U/W Millstone, Nether-Go, Saproling Opp, etc. But Fires was the undisputed best deck of the format. Mana Leak isn't good enough to lick Undermine's balls. You really think Mana Leak is the problem with the format? It's not the shit they're printing, it's the shit they're not printing. But they're too fucking retarded to understand that.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Uhhh.


You guys know he's talking about Standard, right?

I mean I don't play the format that much, but I play it enough to know that most of you all have no fucking idea what you're talking about right now.

[Aggro_zombies]

Actually, Aggro, this is more proof that everyone at Wizards IS retarded. Mana Leak is too powerful? Do I even need to explain what's wrong with that? I remember playing in a Standard format where you had Foil, Thwart, Daze, Counterspell, Absorb, Undermine and several off counters like Prohibit and Rethink. The best deck in the format? Fires of Yavimaya. There were several playable control decks, Counter-Rebel, U/W Millstone, Nether-Go, Saproling Opp, etc. But Fires was the undisputed best deck of the format. Mana Leak isn't good enough to lick Undermine's balls. You really think Mana Leak is the problem with the format? It's not the shit they're printing, it's the shit they're not printing. But they're too fucking retarded to understand that.
Read his article. R&D is operating under the assumption that creatures have historically been too weak while spells have historically been too strong. You, and others on this forum, are coming from the angle that the balance was perfect but is now out of whack because of overpowered creatures.

Under the paradigm Zac Hill proposed, yes, Mana Leak is a problem. The inability to answer the opponent's creatures because he keeps Mana Leaking your removal or blockers is kind of a problem. You, on the other hand, see the creatures as the issue because they seem too strong relative to the answers. You and Zac Hill are talking past each other, which is why you see him as retarded.

Whether or not the contention that spells are too strong and creatures are too weak is true depends quite a bit on how you want to interpret the game's history. I will only say that a quick comparison of Werebear - once the gold standard of Legacy-playable green creatures - and Tendrils of Agony seems pretty convincing to me.

Also, Mana Leak wasn't in the Standard format you were describing; Counterspell was, and at UU, it works quite differently - especially back then, when mana fixing wasn't very good.

[Awaclus]

The problem is the fact that they have reprinted old spells for Blue and kept printing more new creatures for Blue. If they had just reprinted Mana Leak and then kept designing creatures like they designed 15 years ago for Blue for a while, there would've been no problem. If they hadn't reprinted Mana Leak, but instead just kept designing good creatures for Blue, there would've been no problem. Snapcaster is one of the reasons for the problem, being an old spell and a new creature at the same time; but in a format without Mana Leak -like spells, Snapcaster wouldn't have been overpowered so Zac Hill is pretty much correct.

[dontbiteitholmes]

The problem is the fact that they have reprinted old spells for Blue and kept printing more new creatures for Blue. If they had just reprinted Mana Leak and then kept designing creatures like they designed 15 years ago for Blue for a while, there would've been no problem. If they hadn't reprinted Mana Leak, but instead just kept designing good creatures for Blue, there would've been no problem. Snapcaster is one of the reasons for the problem, being an old spell and a new creature at the same time; but in a format without Mana Leak -like spells, Snapcaster wouldn't have been overpowered so Zac Hill is pretty much correct.

The only deck anyone can reasonably argue is overpowered in Standard is UW Delver, and it's pretty clear that Equipment + hexproof is the real problem there. In every other deck no one complains about Snapcaster, Mana Leak, or Delver. Back when UW Delver ran illusions and no Equipment it was pretty much the same deck it is now except w/o the Hexproof + Equipment and no one complained. R&D misses the point again, what else is new?

[dahcmai]

The amusing thing is, you know that tons of people including myself plan on using that little land to make sure things like Geist and Snapcaster get punched through against the UB control decks furthering the game plan of UW even more.

Define Irony.

[RaNDoMxGeSTuReS]

Define Irony.

When a cobbler is kicked to death by his own shoes.

[rxavage]

When a cobbler is kicked to death by his own shoes.

Isn't that more coincidence than ironic?

Define rhetorical.

[alderon666]

Snapcaster Mage should've been a red card.

[trivial_matters]

Snapcaster Mage should've been a red card.

Snapcaster Mage should've been a purple card.

[Ignithas_]

Snapcaster Mage should've been a red card.
Either that or be UR or limited to U cards.

[joemauer]

Snapcaster Mage should have been an artifact, so everyone could play him and realize he is not the most powerful creature ever.

Kind of like that hot girl in high school that everyone wanted to date. However, the one guy who did date her ended up ditching her because she was as dumb as a bag of bricks. Same thing with snapcaster Mage. He is this all mighty creature that all the colors want, but Canadian Thresh already dumped him.

[Aggro_zombies]

Snapcaster Mage should have been an artifact, so everyone could play him and realize he is not the most powerful creature ever.

Kind of like that hot girl in high school that everyone wanted to date. However, the one guy who did date her ended up ditching her because she was as dumb as a bag of bricks. Same thing with snapcaster Mage. He is this all mighty creature that all the colors want, but Canadian Thresh already dumped him.
Canadian Thresh shouldn't have run him in the first place. For a deck that has all of, like, six to eight lands that produce colored mana, Snapcaster is just not that hot.

[Offler]

In the article its certain that author is taking care only of current Standard. No other formats. And thats the main problem.

If they want to print new cards and sell them, Standard (eg type2) is the way how to do it.

Now Snapcaster is being attacked for being too powerful. Its not, he is only bit underpriced in means of mana. But many other non blue cards are now underpriced as well. This trend is visible, when you compare mana costs from older editions.

But how in the hell they came to Mana leak?

[RaNDoMxGeSTuReS]

I think the issue with Snapcaster Mage is that it's on a 2/1 body and has the creature type wizard (Riptide Laboratory).

But I doubt anyone would play a blue spell that reads "1U, target sorcery or instant in your graveyard gains flashback until end of turn."

[xfxf]

Yes, that card wouldn't be as playable as the Mage. The problem is Wizards is trying to push the game towards a creature centric game and instead of printing good versatile spells they have been loading that functionality on to the creatures. That's also why Tarmogoyf is being sidewalked as a vanilla creature more and more. The spells are too narrow so we turn to creatures with abilities. It's even taking over Vintage as you can see from the top8 decklists.

[RaNDoMxGeSTuReS]

Yes, that card wouldn't be as playable as the Mage. The problem is Wizards is trying to push the game towards a creature centric game and instead of printing good versatile spells they have been loading that functionality on to the creatures. That's also why Tarmogoyf is being sidewalked as a vanilla creature more and more. The spells are too narrow so we turn to creatures with abilities. It's even taking over Vintage as you can see from the top8 decklists.

Snapcaster Control in Vintage is pretty wonky.

Just waiting for wizards to print a flying Tarmogoyf.

[Awaclus]

But I doubt anyone would play a blue spell that reads "1U, target sorcery or instant in your graveyard gains flashback until end of turn."
Recoup is pretty close. Okay, it isn't blue and it doesn't target instants, but it has flashback of its own. And nobody plays it, many people have even forgotten about the card (or maybe even never heard of it, if the player is new).

[Star|Scream]

He is saying that printing these types of creatures sells packs. People want these creatures, and this is the direction that Magic is headed. There are some people (namely Legacy & Vintage players) that don't like this trend, but apparently the majority of pack-openers *do*. Maybe we're just getting old?

But as for those upset about this new land. Really? Didn't blue just get JTMS, Delver, Snapcaster, and a situational time walk?

[nedleeds]

Snapcaster Control in Vintage is pretty wonky.

Just waiting for wizards to print a flying Tarmogoyf.

Delver? Oh ... he's actually cheaper and doesn't bite it to Spell Snare.

[nedleeds]

I think the issue with Snapcaster Mage is that it's on a 2/1 body and has the creature type wizard (Riptide Laboratory).

But I doubt anyone would play a blue spell that reads "1U, target sorcery or instant in your graveyard gains flashback until end of turn."

Much like Recoup ... I think SCM would have been fine as

1R ... maybe without the Flash. Or give it flash but only let it hit red spells. Or make it RR casting cost.

[RaNDoMxGeSTuReS]

I'd cast a 5/6 flyer for 2cc every time.

[Koby]

Recoup had seen play in vintage before. SCM should have been red. Delver should have been black. Dontbiteitholmes put it right - this new land will be used in blue decks against other blue decks. And that's probably going to be the most marvelous think about trying to perform surgery on Standard with a sledgehammer. R&D needs to be printing consistent blue hosers every set, starting with Choke and Scald, then moving to Boil and Tsunami. Fuck it, where my Stone Rain to deal with this land?

[socialite]

Forget its placement, who/what will run it in a 75; the thing that irks me about Cavern of Souls is the utter hypocrisy displayed by WotC via creature power creep and pushing the Red Zone.

Its obvious WotC has focused on the Red Zone as the area where they would like most interaction to occur during a typical game of Magic the Gathering. Yet the powers that be decided to neuter the majority of the interesting/knowledge and skill testing portion of the Red Zone by removing damage from the stack.

Lobotomizing the Red Zone while printing heinously over powered creatures that avoid, by nature, interaction in said zone (hexproof) and simultaneously pumping out cards that punish interaction on the stack makes no sense to me and quite frankly sends a mixed signal of what this game is supposed to be.

As a competitive player I feel as though WotC is trying to remove portions of the game I have grown to enjoy simply because a bunch of brain munching zombie casuals make up the majority of their dollar signs. This is excellent business sense when considering profit margins; super lame for the average Eternal fan.

This game is turning into Yugioh.

[Aggro_zombies]

Forget its placement, who/what will run it in a 75; the thing that irks me about Cavern of Souls is the utter hypocrisy displayed by WotC via creature power creep and pushing the Red Zone.

Its obvious WotC has focused on the Red Zone as the area where they would like most interaction to occur during a typical game of Magic the Gathering. Yet the powers that be decided to neuter the majority of the interesting/knowledge and skill testing portion of the Red Zone by removing damage from the stack.

Um.

Removing damage from the stack makes combat more skill-intensive. Or are you arguing that the corner cases wherein it was not correct to autopilot "stack damage, sacrifice my guy" are not the exceptions that proved that rule?

The only "skill" involved was whether or not you knew you could do that. When you were playing against someone who didn't, you got to pull all kinds of fast ones on them because damage stacking was counter-intuitive from a flavor perspective ("But your guy died! How is he still around to beat up my guy?!"). That's not so much skill as "lol n00b pwn3d."

I do agree that the move to hexproof over shroud seems bad. At 1U, Invisible Stalker would have been fairly costed as a 1/1 unblockable guy with shroud; once you throw in hexproof, things get a little too good. Shroud was a partial drawback, but hexproof is all upside, and needs to cost more to counteract that.

[socialite]

I understand your point about damage stacking and I believe that was the main if not only reason WotC choose to remove it. At the end of the day there was much more interaction in the Red Zone when it existed compared to now where combat is quite scripted.


the common thread is the presence of Mana Leak rendering it impossible to get ahead by casting a powerful, expensive spell.

This bothers me as well as traditionally the role of control has been to keep people from getting too fat and punish them for it. Besting control required using a thought process and adjusting your strategy. Now it just seems really derptastic.

[Aggro_zombies]

I understand your point about damage stacking and I believe that was the main if not only reason WotC choose to remove it. At the end of the day there was much more interaction in the Red Zone when it existed compared to now where combat is quite scripted.
As someone who plays Limited quite a bit I can tell you that combat is not nearly as scripted now as it used to be during, say Kamigawa or Mirrodin 1.0. Unlike Kami, wherein the correct play was pretty much always "Block with Sak-Tribe Elder, stack damage, sacrifice my guy," blocking with a Dawntreader Elk these days requires me to think about whether I really need the land or whether I want the other creature dead.

[Gheizen64]

If they really wanted the red zone to matter, they should have printed better pump and anti removal spells, along other things. A new fanatic or creature with dynamic abilities too. As of now, a lot of the best creatures are dumb and the game turn into a simple stall until someone put the bigger beater in play.

[socialite]

As someone who plays Limited quite a bit I can tell you that combat is not nearly as scripted now as it used to be during, say Kamigawa or Mirrodin 1.0. Unlike Kami, wherein the correct play was pretty much always "Block with Sak-Tribe Elder, stack damage, sacrifice my guy," blocking with a Dawntreader Elk these days requires me to think about whether I really need the land or whether I want the other creature dead.
I'd argue these are things relegated to certain scenarios and block mechanics; needs a wider scope. Perhaps this is all rather subjective.

[TsumiBand]

As someone who plays Limited quite a bit I can tell you that combat is not nearly as scripted now as it used to be during, say Kamigawa or Mirrodin 1.0. Unlike Kami, wherein the correct play was pretty much always "Block with Sak-Tribe Elder, stack damage, sacrifice my guy," blocking with a Dawntreader Elk these days requires me to think about whether I really need the land or whether I want the other creature dead.

Yeah, I've heard it argued that removing the ability to stack combat damage has ultimately made Limited combat math more interesting, but I'm not sure it's true.

For one, Affinity lost a ton of its primary means of generating CA (not Limited obviously, but it's the first deck I think of when I wish 'damage on the stack' was still a thing). Secondly, the ability to pump creatures with damage on the stack was a super-underrated card trick that forced difficult decisions in Limited; losing that is a bummer. Third, there's just as many "unintuitive" decisions regarding the m10 rules; why does the attacker determine blocking order? Why am I forced to throw away my 3/4 when attacking into a couple of 1/1 dorks, after I determine that blocking order and my opponent has Giant Growth? I used to be able to at least assign the damage to the smaller dude; now it's just a 1-for-1. Beh.

[SpikeyMikey]

Read his article. R&D is operating under the assumption that creatures have historically been too weak while spells have historically been too strong. You, and others on this forum, are coming from the angle that the balance was perfect but is now out of whack because of overpowered creatures.

Under the paradigm Zac Hill proposed, yes, Mana Leak is a problem. The inability to answer the opponent's creatures because he keeps Mana Leaking your removal or blockers is kind of a problem. You, on the other hand, see the creatures as the issue because they seem too strong relative to the answers. You and Zac Hill are talking past each other, which is why you see him as retarded.

Whether or not the contention that spells are too strong and creatures are too weak is true depends quite a bit on how you want to interpret the game's history. I will only say that a quick comparison of Werebear - once the gold standard of Legacy-playable green creatures - and Tendrils of Agony seems pretty convincing to me.

Also, Mana Leak wasn't in the Standard format you were describing; Counterspell was, and at UU, it works quite differently - especially back then, when mana fixing wasn't very good.

Compare having 3-4 counterspells in your deck and 3-4 Snapcasters to replay them vs. having 9-12 counterspells in your deck and a win condition like Goblin Trenches, which dodged 99% of maindecked removal at the time. And while Geist is faster than Trenches, I'm pretty sure I'd take Invasions era Trenches over contemporary Delver any day of the week.

Comparing Werebear and Tendrils in Legacy is a bit silly. Compare their respective impacts on Standard. It's a very rare card, creature or non-creature, that's good in both Standard and Legacy. The formats are different. While they've printed plenty of stuff lately that has been bad for Legacy (ohai Emrakul!), what they've done to this format is nothing compared to the good hard fucking they've given Standard.

The mana fixing back then was roughly the same as today. 10 M10 style duals vs 10 pain lands. 5 Scars duals vs 5 Invasions tap duals. Plus you had City of Brass and the lair lands (which understandably did not see much constructed play). The only thing that would've made the mana a little weaker at the time is Rishadan Port and frankly, that falls under the land destruction umbrella that they need to be printing more of. Standard would improve five-fold if they printed Port in M13.

[SpikeyMikey]

Um.

Removing damage from the stack makes combat more skill-intensive. Or are you arguing that the corner cases wherein it was not correct to autopilot "stack damage, sacrifice my guy" are not the exceptions that proved that rule?

The only "skill" involved was whether or not you knew you could do that. When you were playing against someone who didn't, you got to pull all kinds of fast ones on them because damage stacking was counter-intuitive from a flavor perspective ("But your guy died! How is he still around to beat up my guy?!"). That's not so much skill as "lol n00b pwn3d."

I do agree that the move to hexproof over shroud seems bad. At 1U, Invisible Stalker would have been fairly costed as a 1/1 unblockable guy with shroud; once you throw in hexproof, things get a little too good. Shroud was a partial drawback, but hexproof is all upside, and needs to cost more to counteract that.

Sorry for the double post, but I'd also like to voice my disagreement with this. While what you're saying about the rules change would be true if we were all still using the same creatures, what it actually accomplished wasn't to make you decide whether to use Fanatic or deal combat damage; it made you decide to cut Fanatic from the deck. It shifted the balance of playability from creatures with interesting abilities to vanilla creatures. Of course, there are plenty of CiP (EtB) creatures that see play, but next to none with sacrifice or tap abilities. Qasali Pridemage, of course and Mother of Runes. Outside of those two, you're talking just oddball corner cases. The occasional Weathered Wayfarer.

Lowering the power level of most creatures with activated abilities is a de facto increase in the power level of vanilla creatures. This does not lead to a more skill-intensive format.

[Aggro_zombies]

Sorry for the double post, but I'd also like to voice my disagreement with this. While what you're saying about the rules change would be true if we were all still using the same creatures, what it actually accomplished wasn't to make you decide whether to use Fanatic or deal combat damage; it made you decide to cut Fanatic from the deck. It shifted the balance of playability from creatures with interesting abilities to vanilla creatures. Of course, there are plenty of CiP (EtB) creatures that see play, but next to none with sacrifice or tap abilities. Qasali Pridemage, of course and Mother of Runes. Outside of those two, you're talking just oddball corner cases. The occasional Weathered Wayfarer.

Lowering the power level of most creatures with activated abilities is a de facto increase in the power level of vanilla creatures. This does not lead to a more skill-intensive format.
How many of those creatures would still see play even if damage stacked? Sakura-Tribe Elder, and...?

I was also addressing Limited with that post.

[Gheizen64]

How many of those creatures would still see play even if damage stacked? Sakura-Tribe Elder, and...?

I was also addressing Limited with that post.

I'd still be playing fanatic every day of the week honestly.

[ReAnimator]

The mana fixing back then was roughly the same as today. 10 M10 style duals vs 10 pain lands. 5 Scars duals vs 5 Invasions tap duals. Plus you had City of Brass and the lair lands (which understandably did not see much constructed play). The only thing that would've made the mana a little weaker at the time is Rishadan Port and frankly, that falls under the land destruction umbrella that they need to be printing more of. Standard would improve five-fold if they printed Port in M13.

What what what? There is so much wrong with this paragraph. First off M10 lands and Scars lands are both way way above painlands and tap duals as far as playability goes.
Second, Port was totally insane and overpowered the first time round in standard and was a huge mistake, so much so that they printed hosers for it specifically, which weren't good enough cause it was still way better to just play it. It got banned in block, how in good gravy would it improve standard? I can't even imagine how awful a format with all these aggro decks backed up by port would be. Delver and St.Traft backed up with Ports? geez that sounds super miserable.

[TsumiBand]

I'd still be playing fanatic every day of the week honestly.

Right?

The argument I hear a lot is that it was "always correct" to put damage on the stack, and so there was this illusion of "more choices" when in fact it was always strictly better to stack the damage. This simply cannot be the case; in a situation like Goblin Lackey, the line of play exists to either sac it with damage-on or sac it prior. Both can alter the outcome of an opponent's attack step in real and different ways.

I know I keep bringing up Affinity, but seriously, what a loss that deck went through after losing damage on the stack. My 4/4 Ravager can chump and kill an X/4 creature and throw the counters over to another guy and potentially save it from a 'bad' chump block. That was an excellent and entirely often line of play that just evaporated, and it was one of Affinity's ways of creating CA (or at least, making it fucking tough to do anything but 1-for-1 them in the red zone).

The point of fact is, most of the lines of play that exist now, also existed then, and by and large many of them are just not that interesting. I get that Giant Growth is more meaningful now, but that doesn't get it played outside of, like, Infect.dec (and even there, it's not Giant Growth, it's like Vines of Vastwood and shit). I do believe that simplicity breeds complexity, but that doesn't immediately translate into "less is more". The m10 rules just allow for less lines of play, end of sentence.

[Aggro_zombies]

Right?

The argument I hear a lot is that it was "always correct" to put damage on the stack, and so there was this illusion of "more choices" when in fact it was always strictly better to stack the damage. This simply cannot be the case; in a situation like Goblin Lackey, the line of play exists to either sac it with damage-on or sac it prior. Both can alter the outcome of an opponent's attack step in real and different ways.
But, see, these are the exceptions that prove the rule. If you don't have a guy that can toss damage around, you block, stack damage, and sacrifice every time. That Fanatic could shoot something prior to attacking or during the attack (or block) makes him more like a removal spell with an ass than a proper creature. Besides, the card now works the way it did when it was printed and the stack didn't exist.


I know I keep bringing up Affinity, but seriously, what a loss that deck went through after losing damage on the stack. My 4/4 Ravager can chump and kill an X/4 creature and throw the counters over to another guy and potentially save it from a 'bad' chump block. That was an excellent and entirely often line of play that just evaporated, and it was one of Affinity's ways of creating CA (or at least, making it fucking tough to do anything but 1-for-1 them in the red zone).

The point of fact is, most of the lines of play that exist now, also existed then, and by and large many of them are just not that interesting. I get that Giant Growth is more meaningful now, but that doesn't get it played outside of, like, Infect.dec (and even there, it's not Giant Growth, it's like Vines of Vastwood and shit). I do believe that simplicity breeds complexity, but that doesn't immediately translate into "less is more". The m10 rules just allow for less lines of play, end of sentence.
Well, sure, Affinity has fewer tricks now. You also can't Wish for Wishes or for other exiled cards, which is relevant to how some decks are constructed these days. But I think the change has been positive on the whole, especially for Limited.

[SpikeyMikey]

What what what? There is so much wrong with this paragraph. First off M10 lands and Scars lands are both way way above painlands and tap duals as far as playability goes.
Second, Port was totally insane and overpowered the first time round in standard and was a huge mistake, so much so that they printed hosers for it specifically, which weren't good enough cause it was still way better to just play it. It got banned in block, how in good gravy would it improve standard? I can't even imagine how awful a format with all these aggro decks backed up by port would be. Delver and St.Traft backed up with Ports? geez that sounds super miserable.

I don't necessarily agree. Scars duals are, of course, strictly superior to the Invasions tap duals. However, pain lands vs. M10 duals isn't exactly cut-and-dried. Pain lands place zero restrictions on the rest of your mana base. M10 duals might as well be tap duals if you're not running half of your mana base as basic lands. When you're talking about a tri-color deck, it gets very tricky to balance. A pain land always taps for two colors the turn it comes down. That makes it significantly better in the early game getting UU on turn 2 for Counterspell, which was Aggro's argument.

Port was ridiculous during Urza's/Masques, especially when combined with Tangle Wire. It was significantly less powerful in the Masques/Invasions environment. Take a look at the T8 from the 2001 Worlds. 14 copies of Rishadan Port in the T8. 4 copies of Teferi's Response and 0 copies of Tsabo's Web. Was Port strong? Sure. Busted? No. Compare to the most recent worlds T8 where Inkmoth Nexus put 20 copies in the T8.

I was playing Standard heavily back then. I even wrote an article for Brainburst on sideboarding techniques for R/G aggro decks in the Invasions/Odyssey Standard. Believe me, I know how the pieces fit. I played with and against Port for the entire time it was legal in Standard.

If you've got water on the floor under your sink, you can wipe up the puddle, or put a bucket there. You can take care of the obvious signs, but that doesn't actually fix the problem. Rather than say "Delver decks are too powerful in Standard because of hexproof creatures and Mana Leak", you can simply give the format the tools to handle the decks that are currently keeping strategies that would beat Delver decks from existing. Port would be one such tool. Counterspell would be another. Having 8 2 mana counters would allow Unburial Rites decks to slow down the early onslaught enough to bring the big guns out.

[Aggro_zombies]

Wouldn't Port be really good in Delver decks? The ability to stunt the opponent's development while beating him down with the fast clocks of Delver and Geist seems like it would fuck the format sideways. The incentive is certainly there to change the deck to take advantage of it.

[Koby]

Wouldn't Port be really good in Delver decks? The ability to stunt the opponent's development while beating him down with the fast clocks of Delver and Geist seems like it would fuck the format sideways. The incentive is certainly there to change the deck to take advantage of it.

Given the option to leave up :1::u: for Mana Leak or activate Port in the current Standard, which do you think is a better plan?

[dschalter]

I don't necessarily agree. Scars duals are, of course, strictly superior to the Invasions tap duals. However, pain lands vs. M10 duals isn't exactly cut-and-dried. Pain lands place zero restrictions on the rest of your mana base. M10 duals might as well be tap duals if you're not running half of your mana base as basic lands. When you're talking about a tri-color deck, it gets very tricky to balance. A pain land always taps for two colors the turn it comes down. That makes it significantly better in the early game getting UU on turn 2 for Counterspell, which was Aggro's argument.

Port was ridiculous during Urza's/Masques, especially when combined with Tangle Wire. It was significantly less powerful in the Masques/Invasions environment. Take a look at the T8 from the 2001 Worlds. 14 copies of Rishadan Port in the T8. 4 copies of Teferi's Response and 0 copies of Tsabo's Web. Was Port strong? Sure. Busted? No. Compare to the most recent worlds T8 where Inkmoth Nexus put 20 copies in the T8.

I was playing Standard heavily back then. I even wrote an article for Brainburst on sideboarding techniques for R/G aggro decks in the Invasions/Odyssey Standard. Believe me, I know how the pieces fit. I played with and against Port for the entire time it was legal in Standard.

If you've got water on the floor under your sink, you can wipe up the puddle, or put a bucket there. You can take care of the obvious signs, but that doesn't actually fix the problem. Rather than say "Delver decks are too powerful in Standard because of hexproof creatures and Mana Leak", you can simply give the format the tools to handle the decks that are currently keeping strategies that would beat Delver decks from existing. Port would be one such tool. Counterspell would be another. Having 8 2 mana counters would allow Unburial Rites decks to slow down the early onslaught enough to bring the big guns out.

It's posts like these that leave me a little baffled. People go on about how inept R&D is, how they haven't printed the proper cards... and then say that Counterspell would lead to the decline of Delver. First off, Counterspell would be incredible in the Delver decks; for a deck that runs almost all blue sources it's basically a strict upgrade and it would make it incredibly hard for other decks to come back once behind, as the plan of casting a spell with three mana up is no longer effective. It would make Snapcaster Mage even more unreal in the late game, as flashing back Counterspell on turn 15 is much more powerful than flashing back Mana Leak. As for the actual argument made, that of the shifting metagame, I can't say that it makes much sense. Delver is quite good against control decks because of the explosive potential of Delver, the hexproofness of Geist, and the flexibility of Snapcaster Mage and it would love a metagame with more slow control (decks that wouldn't even be able to use Counterspell even close to as effectively because they run quite a few non-blue lands).

[Malchar]

We all know that in the old days, they used to print broken stuff all the time without thinking, like black lotus, necropotence, and memory jar, but at least they don't do that very often anymore. Now, if they do make a card too strong, they tend to be spread out among all the colors, so at least things are balanced.

Oh wait, none of that is true:
"Oops we messed up with jace, the mind sculptor"
"Oops we messed up with mental misstep"
"Oops we messed up with snapcaster mage"
"Oops we (might have) messed up with temporal mastery"

[rufus]

It's posts like these that leave me a little baffled. People go on about how inept R&D is, how they haven't printed the proper cards... and then say that Counterspell would lead to the decline of Delver. ...

No doubt.

I find myself thinking something like Volcanic Fallout would be a much better answer. After all Cavern of Souls can just find its way into Delver decks instead - Snapcaster Mage,Delver of Secrets, Invisible Stalker, and Grim Lavamancer are all humans.

[SpikeyMikey]

It's posts like these that leave me a little baffled. People go on about how inept R&D is, how they haven't printed the proper cards... and then say that Counterspell would lead to the decline of Delver. First off, Counterspell would be incredible in the Delver decks; for a deck that runs almost all blue sources it's basically a strict upgrade and it would make it incredibly hard for other decks to come back once behind, as the plan of casting a spell with three mana up is no longer effective. It would make Snapcaster Mage even more unreal in the late game, as flashing back Counterspell on turn 15 is much more powerful than flashing back Mana Leak. As for the actual argument made, that of the shifting metagame, I can't say that it makes much sense. Delver is quite good against control decks because of the explosive potential of Delver, the hexproofness of Geist, and the flexibility of Snapcaster Mage and it would love a metagame with more slow control (decks that wouldn't even be able to use Counterspell even close to as effectively because they run quite a few non-blue lands).

Delver should beat control. For the same reason that aggro-control decks have historically beat control decks. In theory, control should be better against aggro control than ramp, however, since aggro control is excellent at winning matchups where only a few powerful threats are presented.

Look, think about Legacy for a moment, since everyone here is familiar with the format and it's easier to demonstrate the way the underlying strategies mesh. RUG Delver is an aggro control deck. It seeks to land a cheap threat and then ride that threat to victory by disrupting an opponent until that threat wins. The raw power level of the cards in the deck is rather low. That means that if a more solid deck survives the initial onslaught, makes their way through the tempo effects and can effectively set up their own game plan, RUG loses. RUG does not win games that go long. That's just the way it works. It's more or less the same with Standard Delver decks. Runechanter's Pike and Moorland Haunt give them some tools to go long, but it's not heavy on late game effects. Vapor Snag isn't a removal spell, it's a tempo spell.

So in order to beat a tempo deck consistently, you need a midrange deck or, in some cases, a fast aggro deck. But generally, you need something that is going to force them to interact in a manner outside of their disruption relatively early but has a higher raw power level than they do. A +1 deck. But midrange cannot exist in a format with ramp if it doesn't have some method for interacting with ramp. Because at their core, midrange decks are like counterless control decks. A midrange deck wants to generate card advantage through board interactions and you simply cannot interact meaningfully with a Primeval Titan deck. Once they get to their top-end threat, they generate too much advantage for you to realistically handle. You have to deal with the Titan, which is tricky since the removal that's going to shine in midrange vs. the format's premiere aggro control deck (Galvanic Blast, Dismember, Gut Shot, etc.) is not going to deal well with a Titan. Then you have to deal with the Kessig Wolf Run (devastating with Inkmoth, still scarier than Runechanter's with anything else) and Inkmoth. That's tough to do without some sort of playable LD, and the LD in the format is too slow to be of any use in slowing down Delver or mana screwing the 3 color decks like Frites or Flare.

So let's look at the cards I talked about. Would Delver gain benefit out of Port and Counterspell? Yes. As Dschalter says, Counterspell is basically a strict upgrade for the deck over Leak. But Delver gains less out of Cspell than other blue decks would. Mana Leak *is* Counterspell in the early game. For all intents and purposes, until turn 4 at least, Leak IS Counterspell with a less restrictive mana cost. And in practice, it's Counterspell up until somewhere around turn 6. How often are you casting a 1 mana spell on turn 4? Most of the spells you're going to use to try and interact with the board are going to be 2-3+. However, in the late game, Mana Leak becomes much weaker. On turn 7, your opponent can play Huntmaster and leave Leak mana open. Since Delver decks don't ever plan on hitting this point in the game, that's relatively irrelevant for them. But it's hugely relevant for a deck that wants to win with say, Consecrated Sphinx. You need those hard counters late game. Think back to Zen/Scars T2. The U/B Control mirrors were won by getting to 7 mana first to play Jace with mana to pay for Leak. If Leak is Counterspell, it changes that whole dynamic.

As for Rishadan Port, Ruckus made the most important point. Yes, they can use Port as a disruptive card. However, it'd be the only mana disruption they run. In Legacy, RUG Delver's disruption is primarily based on mana disruption. In Standard, it's under-costed board control like Dismember, Gut Shot and Vapor Snag. Things that can easily be used with little or no mana, because they need every bit of their mana to deploy threats. Name 1 Legacy deck in the last 5 years that has run Rishadan Port without concurrently running Aether Vial. You're left with 43 Land (which has since moved on to Ghost Quarter), a deck which doesn't fit in the normal paradigm anyway. The reason for this is that Port is incredibly mana intensive.it's good, but without other mana disruption to back it up, Delver won't be able to use it as effectively as part of their disruption package. If you were playing Team America but your discard package consisted solely of 4 Hymn's, that wouldn't really do much. It wouldn't be enough to play with their hand consistently and you'd end up cutting it for something else. Now the opportunity cost of Port is relatively low (although if you're playing Counterspell over Leak, it may become more important), but so is the effect you get out of it in Delver vs. in another deck. If you take the ramp decks out of the equation (which Port does relatively handily), the midrange decks that are left aren't going to care much about Port.

Port was good in Urza's/Masques when there was a lot of fast mana, but then again, so was Mishra's Helix. The ability to play spells AND use Port was amazing. In Masques/Invasions it was there more as a hedge against slow hands by allowing you to set your opponent's good hand back in tempo to match your own poorer opening. It was rare that you were dropping a threat and then Porting your opponent down to prevent them from dealing with it. If Delver decks had big spells they were stalling into, that'd be one thing. Tom Van DeLogt's Machine Head ran Port as a way to get to the slower spells out of a non-Ritual hand. Fires ran it for those hands where it didn't have the turn 1 Birds/Elves or when it didn't have a 3 mana drop on turn 2. Delver is more compact than that and wouldn't get as much mileage out of the card.

[Koby]

More to the point - Ponza ran Port to bridge turn 2->3 where it could start blowing shit up and continue to lock opponents in the 2-3 mana range. I miss Ponza and LD.

Reprint Avalanche Riders (with Cavern of Souls), and Standard will be revitalized. Blink angels ask very nicely.

[Aggro_zombies]

More to the point - Ponza ran Port to bridge turn 2->3 where it could start blowing shit up and continue to lock opponents in the 2-3 mana range. I miss Ponza and LD.

Reprint Avalanche Riders (with Cavern of Souls), and Standard will be revitalized. Blink angels ask very nicely.
Avalanche Riders is too powerful under their current design paradigm. Market research shows players are sad when they can't cast their big awesome spells, and counters are more important to metagame balance than land destruction is.

MaRo has talked about this a couple of times, IIRC.

[dontbiteitholmes]

We all know that in the old days, they used to print broken stuff all the time without thinking, like black lotus, necropotence, and memory jar, but at least they don't do that very often anymore. Now, if they do make a card too strong, they tend to be spread out among all the colors, so at least things are balanced.

Oh wait, none of that is true:
"Oops we messed up with jace, the mind sculptor"
"Oops we messed up with mental misstep"
"Oops we messed up with snapcaster mage"
"Oops we (might have) messed up with temporal mastery"

In all fairness you are cherry-picking. You forgot to mention Stoneforge, Valakut, Splinter-Twin, Bloodbraid Elf, and Bitterblossom, all of which I think R&D would consider mistakes made in the past 4 years they would not print again if they had a do over.

[Koby]

Avalanche Riders is too powerful under their current design paradigm. Market research shows players are sad when they can't cast their big awesome spells, and counters are more important to metagame balance than land destruction is.

MaRo has talked about this a couple of times, IIRC.

Sad and fun are relative terms. Said players are also sad when they can't resolve their bid awesome spells. With Cavern of Souls in the format to counter counters, Land Destruction is warranted to counter counter-counter lands. MaRo isn't a set developer - he's a designer. In the last few blocks he's more concerned about creating flavor than creating a dynamic Constructed format. Development too, mostly cares about Limited.

[Aggro_zombies]

Sad and fun are relative terms. With Cavern of Souls in the format, Land Destruction is warranted too.
Ghost Quarter exists to punish utility lands, as does the 3R "destroy target artifact or land" reprint in AVR.

EDIT: Ninja edits? Fair enough. But MaRo was talking about "R&D being down on LD," to paraphrase his expression. Basically, he says that R&D believes that powerful land destruction decks are unfun in the same way mono-blue counter-control decks are unfun. The latter decks don't exist anymore - indeed, the days of "1 Rainbow Efreet, 24 land, the rest counters" are long past, and you simply can't build that deck in Standard right now without having to use utter garbage cards. Similarly, you can't build Ponza anymore because R&D doesn't like that deck, but Acidic Slime and Ghost Quarter are there as tournament-playable ways to remove problem lands.

[dontbiteitholmes]

Ghost Quarter exists to punish utility lands, as does the 3R "destroy target artifact or land" reprint in AVR.

4 mana land destruction is too slow unless it comes with a perc such as Avalanche Riders or Goblin Ruinblaster.
Land destroying lands are too ass unless they 1 for 1.

IMO opinion they need to return real LD to the game, even if it ends up toned down.
Examples

Pebble Rain - 2R - Sorc - destroy target non-basic land.

Ghost HalfDollar - Land - T- Add one colorless mana. T- Sac ~this~ to destroy target non-basic land opponent controls. That opponent may search their library for a basic land and put it into play if they do you may search your library for a basic land and put it into play tapped.

or even

Red Rain - RRR - Sorc - Destroy target land.

Ramp decks have gotten so stupid. Just durdle into a titan and windmill slam it on the table. Now that counterspells aren't a real answer at least red should be able to slow them down a bit with some LD.

[RJM]

They should just reprint Wasteland in standard. Modern could use it too. That and Back to Basics. Both formats could use a healthy incentive for more basics.

[Koby]

Ghost Quarter exists to punish utility lands, as does the 3R "destroy target artifact or land" reprint in AVR.

EDIT: Ninja edits? Fair enough. But MaRo was talking about "R&D being down on LD," to paraphrase his expression. Basically, he says that R&D believes that powerful land destruction decks are unfun in the same way mono-blue counter-control decks are unfun. The latter decks don't exist anymore - indeed, the days of "1 Rainbow Efreet, 24 land, the rest counters" are long past, and you simply can't build that deck in Standard right now without having to use utter garbage cards. Similarly, you can't build Ponza anymore because R&D doesn't like that deck, but Acidic Slime and Ghost Quarter are there as tournament-playable ways to remove problem lands.

I know Ponza would be untenable in modern Standard; but the key elements from the deck would still be good in Standard. I proposed Avalanche Riders as a way to address several issues:

1) Kills Cavern of Souls (and along with Cavern of Souls not be countered)
2) 4 mana mark is very safe point for land destruction
3) Echo on Darwin is actually really balanced - do you pay :6::r::r: to keep it around? (rarely)
4) Returning Echo would make an interesting spin on Undying/Blink style cards.
5) Red is once again, King of Burn and nothing much else. Why does Red have to continually be a gimp?

Sample list:
//NAME: Wolf Run Ramp
4 Copperline Gorge
5 Forest
4 Inkmoth Nexus
2 Kessig Wolf Run
6 Mountain
4 Rootbound Crag
4 Huntmaster of the Fells
2 Inferno Titan - BURN
4 Primeval Titan
4 Solemn Simulacrum
2 Beast Within
4 Galvanic Blast - BURN
4 Rampant Growth
2 Red Sun's Zenith - BURN
4 Slagstorm - BURN
1 Batterskull
4 Sphere of the Suns
//Sideboard
SB: 2 Thrun, the Last Troll
SB: 2 Ancient Grudge
SB: 2 Autumn's Veil
SB: 1 Act of Aggression
SB: 2 Naturalize
SB: 2 Whipflare - BURN
SB: 2 Garruk, Primal Hunter
SB: 2 Karn Liberated

And another:
//NAME: RG Aggro
9 Forest
4 Mountain
4 Rootbound Crag
4 Copperline Gorge
2 Kessig Wolf Run
4 Llanowar Elves
4 Birds of Paradise
1 Avacyn's Pilgrim
4 Strangleroot Geist
4 Huntmaster of the Fells
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Sword of War and Peace
3 Phyrexian Metamorph
1 Daybreak Ranger
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Acidic Slime
1 Garruk Relentless
2 Arc Trail - BURN
3 Brimstone Volley - BURN
//Sideboard
SB: 1 Garruk Relentless
SB: 1 Acidic Slime
SB: 1 Increasing Savagery
SB: 1 Naturalize
SB: 1 Ancient Grudge
SB: 1 Batterskull
SB: 1 Tree of Redemption
SB: 1 Act of Aggression
SB: 1 Wrack With Madness - BURN
SB: 2 Thrun, the Last Troll
SB: 2 Sword of Feast And Famine
SB: 2 Manabarbs - BURN

[Aggro_zombies]

Ramp decks have gotten so stupid. Just durdle into a titan and windmill slam it on the table. Now that counterspells aren't a real answer at least red should be able to slow them down a bit with some LD.
IIRC both Forsythe and MaRo have admitted that, in hindsight, reprinting the Titans was a mistake. They're almost certainly not in M13.

[dontbiteitholmes]

I know Ponza would be untenable in modern Standard; but the key elements from the deck would still be good in Standard. I proposed Avalanche Riders as a way to address several issues:

1) Kills Cavern of Souls (and along with Cavern of Souls not be countered)
2) 4 mana mark is very safe point for land destruction
3) Echo on Darwin is actually really balanced - do you pay :6::r::r: to keep it around? (rarely)
4) Returning Echo would make an interesting spin on Undying/Blink style cards.
5) Red is once again, King of Burn and nothing much else. Why does Red have to continually be a gimp?

Completely agree. What I wouldn't give to have Ruinblasters and Tec Edge back. Ran them in M11+M12 standard to great effect. I was probably 70-80% against "Caw-Go" post bannings but the obvious downside of running 4x Tec Edges main and 4x Ruinblasters in the side was I had less game against other aggro decks like Vampires or mono-red Mirrors, which were probably around 35-40%. I don't see the big deal with LD, it almost never ends up getting played in Standard anyways because you need at least 7-8 effects for it to make a difference and LD is a terrible topdeck when you are behind or facing off against an aggro deck.

EDIT

IIRC both Forsythe and MaRo have admitted that, in hindsight, reprinting the Titans was a mistake. They're almost certainly not in M13.

Yes, add that to a list of non-blue cards that were probably mistakes. Ironically the blue one is probably the weakest overall.

[Aggro_zombies]

Yes, add that to a list of non-blue cards that were probably mistakes. Ironically the blue one is probably the weakest overall.
I think Prime Time is the worst offender by far. The others are interesting but not really overpowered - but Prime Time should have only searched out one land, or found basic lands, or something.

Either way, it will be interesting to see them gone. Ramp loses a lot of its Plan A when it can't also get a free 6/6 out of its tutor engine.

[Lord Seth]

We all know that in the old days, they used to print broken stuff all the time without thinking, like black lotus, necropotence, and memory jar, but at least they don't do that very often anymore. Now, if they do make a card too strong, they tend to be spread out among all the colors, so at least things are balanced.

Oh wait, none of that is true:
"Oops we messed up with jace, the mind sculptor"
"Oops we messed up with mental misstep"
"Oops we messed up with snapcaster mage"
"Oops we (might have) messed up with temporal mastery"This is cherry picking as has already been mentioned, but I am curious as to where Wizards said they "might have" messed up with Temporal Mastery.

[Aggro_zombies]

This is cherry picking as has already been mentioned, but I am curious as to where Wizards said they "might have" messed up with Temporal Mastery.
Didn't you hear? Temporal Mastery is going to break Legacy in half.

[Lord Seth]

Didn't you hear? Temporal Mastery is going to break Legacy in half.Well, I know some players have claimed that (I guess we'll see in the next month or so), but when did Wizards say such a thing?

[SpikeyMikey]

The problem with the whole "LD isn't fun and counterspells aren't fun" philosophy is that you're basing the high level decisions for a mind-bogglingly complex game on the opinions of mouthbreathers. Honestly, casual players don't know shit about game balance or design. They don't play at a high enough level. Getting rid of land destruction and counters as viable strategies because casual players want to run their 3 card combos in 4 colors is stupid. Those decks aren't viable with or without counterspells in the format. And whether they "feel" like their shit decks are more viable or not, those decks will never be competitive. Heartless Summoning will never be a real deck. It doesn't matter whether Counterspell is in the format or not.

Wizards *needs* to do a better job of building a format that IS fun, rather than one that incorporates what the unwashed masses SAYS will be fun. You would think the latter would lead to the former, but that's not the case.

[Aggro_zombies]

The problem with the whole "LD isn't fun and counterspells aren't fun" philosophy is that you're basing the high level decisions for a mind-bogglingly complex game on the opinions of mouthbreathers. Honestly, casual players don't know shit about game balance or design. They don't play at a high enough level. Getting rid of land destruction and counters as viable strategies because casual players want to run their 3 card combos in 4 colors is stupid. Those decks aren't viable with or without counterspells in the format. And whether they "feel" like their shit decks are more viable or not, those decks will never be competitive. Heartless Summoning will never be a real deck. It doesn't matter whether Counterspell is in the format or not.
You're missing the point here. If they're not having fun, they're not buying product, and if they're not buying product, MtG will go the way so many other TCGs have gone before it: StoppedProductionVille.

But I guess that doesn't matter if it's balanced and fun for you?

[Oiolosse]

But Wizards is really Hasbro and Hasbro just wants to make money, right? I mean, these are in fact, for:profit:businesses. I would expect them to prefer a script, they're easier to predict.

[DragoFireheart]

But Wizards is really Hasbro and Hasbro just wants to make money, right? I mean, these are in fact, for:profit:businesses. I would expect them to prefer a script, they're easier to predict.

Which is why we get stuff like Snappy: cool/powerful cards sell packs. Fuck balance. Make JTMS! SELL SELL SELL!

Too much whining? BAN BAN BAN!

[SpikeyMikey]

You're missing the point here. If they're not having fun, they're not buying product, and if they're not buying product, MtG will go the way so many other TCGs have gone before it: StoppedProductionVille.

But I guess that doesn't matter if it's balanced and fun for you?

I'm not even sure why I'm going to bother replying to this trolling, but in the interest of wasting some time:

Most people don't like cops. When I was in high school, I knew a number of people that said they'd be much happier if there just weren't any cops. Now you and I almost never agree on anything. But I'm going to take for granted that you would agree with me that a world without police officers would be a horrifying thing. My retarded anarchist friends who sat around and smoked too much pot were like the casual players. They thought that if there were no police officers(counters/LD), they'd be free to do all the drugs they wanted, skip school, drive drunk, etc. What would really happen is that the really vicious people, the ones with no capacity for sympathy or love, would quickly take charge of everything and our (mostly) peaceable anarchists would quickly be enslaved. Their situation would be monumentally worse than it was with police around. So while they bitched about the cops, if the powers that be ever actually listened to them, it would create a worse environment than the one they were bitching about.

This is what modern design has done. It has taken something that was balanced and fun and made it less balanced and less fun for everyone, stupid mouthbreathing casual players included. Do you think they LIKE getting run over by Valakut? By Caw Blade? People have a long history of proving they don't know what is good for themselves. Part of being in charge is recognizing those monkey paw desires and nipping them in the bud before they cause problems.

[Malchar]

In all fairness you are cherry-picking. You forgot to mention Stoneforge, Valakut, Splinter-Twin, Bloodbraid Elf, and Bitterblossom, all of which I think R&D would consider mistakes made in the past 4 years they would not print again if they had a do over.

Alright, to be fair I was considering things as mistakes in legacy. Of the ones you listed, stoneforge is the only one that even sees play, and it seems plenty fair compared to what blue gets.

Wizards hasn't said that temporal mastery was a mistake. It hasn't even been released yet. However, based on the community response, it probably will end up being a mistake (again, I'm talking about in legacy).

[lordofthepit]

Most people don't like cops. When I was in high school, I knew a number of people that said they'd be much happier if there just weren't any cops. Now you and I almost never agree on anything. But I'm going to take for granted that you would agree with me that a world without police officers would be a horrifying thing. My retarded anarchist friends who sat around and smoked too much pot were like the casual players. They thought that if there were no police officers(counters/LD), they'd be free to do all the drugs they wanted, skip school, drive drunk, etc. What would really happen is that the really vicious people, the ones with no capacity for sympathy or love, would quickly take charge of everything and our (mostly) peaceable anarchists would quickly be enslaved. Their situation would be monumentally worse than it was with police around. So while they bitched about the cops, if the powers that be ever actually listened to them, it would create a worse environment than the one they were bitching about.

This is what modern design has done. It has taken something that was balanced and fun and made it less balanced and less fun for everyone, stupid mouthbreathing casual players included. Do you think they LIKE getting run over by Valakut? By Caw Blade? People have a long history of proving they don't know what is good for themselves. Part of being in charge is recognizing those monkey paw desires and nipping them in the bud before they cause problems.

:laugh::laugh::laugh:

[phonics]

IIRC both Forsythe and MaRo have admitted that, in hindsight, reprinting the Titans was a mistake. They're almost certainly not in M13.

I don't get it, if the titans and mana leak (according to them) were mistakes, why did they reprint them again?

[Aggro_zombies]

This is what modern design has done. It has taken something that was balanced and fun and made it less balanced and less fun for everyone, stupid mouthbreathing casual players included. Do you think they LIKE getting run over by Valakut? By Caw Blade? People have a long history of proving they don't know what is good for themselves. Part of being in charge is recognizing those monkey paw desires and nipping them in the bud before they cause problems.
Man, I would love to see all the market research data that lends such certainty to your conclusions.

How often does "the casual player who buys a couple of packs when a set comes out and then plays at his kitchen table a lot" get run over by Valakut? What you're describing sounds a lot more like "entry level competitive players" than "the guy who only plays EDH" or "the guy who only drafts" or "the guy who only plays in the school cafeteria with cards from ten years ago his brother gave him." What about these players? Are they all too mouth-breathingly retarded to have an opinion (unlike you, oh enlightened game-designing god)?

Which leads me to another point: who are you to know better, Mr. Rishadan-Port-In-Standard? By what qualifications are you entitled to say that you can lead the mewling masses to funtastic nirvana? All those games you designed? Or just an intuition based on extrapolating from what you find fun and reading some articles on the internet? Because I can do that too and you're quantifiably wrong.

I mean, aside from snide superiority, iron-clad generalizations, and an apparently wounded sense of nostalgia, what point are you trying to make? Just send letters to R&D telling them to all get off your lawn and call it a day.

[dontbiteitholmes]

Man, I would love to see all the market research data that lends such certainty to your conclusions.

How often does "the casual player who buys a couple of packs when a set comes out and then plays at his kitchen table a lot" get run over by Valakut? What you're describing sounds a lot more like "entry level competitive players" than "the guy who only plays EDH" or "the guy who only drafts" or "the guy who only plays in the school cafeteria with cards from ten years ago his brother gave him." What about these players? Are they all too mouth-breathingly retarded to have an opinion (unlike you, oh enlightened game-designing god)?

Which leads me to another point: who are you to know better, Mr. Rishadan-Port-In-Standard? By what qualifications are you entitled to say that you can lead the mewling masses to funtastic nirvana? All those games you designed? Or just an intuition based on extrapolating from what you find fun and reading some articles on the internet? Because I can do that too and you're quantifiably wrong.

I mean, aside from snide superiority, iron-clad generalizations, and an apparently wounded sense of nostalgia, what point are you trying to make? Just send letters to R&D telling them to all get off your lawn and call it a day.

Have you ever been to an FNM? How about a pre-release? His point is valid, even at my FNM which is by far the most competitive in the area, over 2/3 of the players are speed bumps. As many packs as the competitive players buy drafting 3 days a week for some, they still can't keep up with the casuals. He's right though, those kids have no idea what's going on and about 5-6 players out of 32ish average end up taking 1st, 2nd, and 3rd about 80-90% of the time. You can't let armchair quarterbacks run the league. LD was rarely played in Standard except when it was actually too good, so give us more fair LD like last rotation, not practically no LD. Counterspells aren't the problem now, it's hexproof and Swords, which sucks double for casual players because 1 Sword + 2 Geists = the cost of their whole deck. No one is complaining about Mana Leak in Standard, even with Snapper, except for when it's backing up a bunch of Hexproof threats, or scrubs.

[Lord Seth]

Wizards hasn't said that temporal mastery was a mistake. It hasn't even been released yet.Well, your phrasing indicated that they had stated such a thing.
However, based on the community response, it probably will end up being a mistake (again, I'm talking about in legacy)."Community response"--at least for unreleased cards--often seems to be an unreliable indicator for actual play value. Quite a few format staples were overlooked at first, and cards that people before release insisted would break the format turned out to be no-shows in actual tournaments. Not to say the community's always wrong, they can be right just as often, but it's rarely that cards can be truly evaluated until after their release.

And, heck, a fair amount of that "community response" is people saying the card's overrated and won't be as overpowered as people think it will be.

[LOurs]

Ok, so I read the article and learned something. I learned that MANA LEAK is the problem in Standard. I didn't knew that. All the time I thought that awfully designed cards like Moorland Haunt, Snapcaster Mage, Geist of Saint Traft and Invisible Stalker were the problem. And not Mana Leak which would probably make every "10 best designed cards of all time" and "10 most powerful but inherently fair cards of all time" list.

But seriously, WTF was article, I am raging!!!!!!!!!!!! Fuck that! The explanation is one-sided and only cares for covering up how incredibly badly they fucked up when they printed Snapcaster, Haunt, Geist and Stalker in the same Standard format. Yes, sure it fixes the percentages if UW can't counter a T5 Titan and they can't kill them until then but means not that it is a fun game, this means it is fucking solitaire.

[…]

And in the current Standard the problem is not Mana Leak, the problem is that Delver requires cheap spot removal while Snapcaster, Moorland Haunt and Geist laugh at cheap spot removal. Mana Leak has been and always will be a perfectly fair card.





This.

I just fully disagree with the article and the reasons Tao mentioned reflect very well my opinion. The article smells more the frustation than any other relevant point for some reasons I dont really understand.
A format without control is just a terrible format, even if control isnt dominating because it involves game situations where lucky draws dominates, which is me to at the opposite of what a fun & technical game is. And mana leak contributes to keep a nice level of control, precisely because the design of the card is very good. To deal with a ton of totaly linear decks (i.e. ramp/primeval/emrakul) is just a mental suicide and so far from what I enjoy so much in mtg… I'm probably exagerating a bit, but still looks like to what I personaly feel. The real anomaly is the creatures design and their attribution in the bad part of the color pie for reasons I really dont manage to even begin to understand : seriously, a flying nacatl in blue is probably the first misstake that comes to mind, such as to provide best hexproof creatures to these colors or to provide degenerated sword (read ddegenrated in that particular format) with unblockable/hexproof creature … whinning on mana leak sounds so absurd that it seems even now to be a joke ... my 2 cents

[Darkenslight]

I don't get it, if the titans and mana leak (according to them) were mistakes, why did they reprint them again?

Because TItans=packs. And Mana Leak is there just to piss off nonblue players. :p

[edgewalker]

I strictly play standard right now, and after reading this article I feel more so than ever wizards (hasbro) is just out of touch. Mana leak was never and issue...snapcaster into mana leak/vapor snag/ponder? Maybe. Caverns of souls also doesn't help either since delver is really just B/w humans, it also makes WRR so much better since the decks that kept it in check, U/b control, can't do so as well as it could. Personally from what I've seen is Titans are the only problem, because one of the best strategies in standard right now is slamming a titan. I remember after the pro tour when U/b (and grixis) where good Reid Duke and others where saying that most times just slamming a Grave Titan was the best answer. That can't be healthy can it?

[Awaclus]

Which leads me to another point: who are you to know better, Mr. Rishadan-Port-In-Standard? By what qualifications are you entitled to say that you can lead the mewling masses to funtastic nirvana? All those games you designed? Or just an intuition based on extrapolating from what you find fun and reading some articles on the internet? Because I can do that too and you're quantifiably wrong.
I actually have designed games.

From the game's point of view, the problem with removal of all kinds isn't the removal itself, the problem is that there are too powerful targets for it - removal is always equal to its target in terms of card quality. If a deck builder feels like removal is too strong against him, he can either make his opponent's removal less powerful by running less powerful cards that cost less resources or run removal that removes the opponent's removal. So there really is no problem, except for players building their decks wrong.

From the player's point of view, losing is never fun and winning is always fun. Games can be fun even though you lose them and they can't be boring even though you win them, but the one who wins the game is almost always at least a little bit happier than the other player afterwards. No matter what cards were used against the losing player, he will feel bad about them and if he doesn't understand the game's point of view, he will probably complain about them. However, losing when you couldn't "do anything" is much worse than losing when both players had lots of stuff on the battlefield, and people often forget that their opponents have to spend resources on the removal spells and only remember their creature or land getting removed. Removal would be more fun, if it gave something as a reward for the player whose stuff got removed - such as PtE or StoP.

So, Rishadan Port would definitely make Standard slightly less fun for players who don't understand the game's point of view. However, it wouldn't break the format in half or anything - after all, it is kind of removal and as such, it can't be more powerful than the cards it is removing.

I don't know if it should be reprinted or not, though.

After writing this message, it looks like I didn't manage to say what I was originally going to say, but I will post it anyways because I spent quite a lot of time writing it.

[Julian23]

While I like your analytical approach, there's still one thing that bothers me about comparing Port to, say, Terror. A creature removal spell will blank a single card of your opponent. Port however, will blank several cards of your opponent assuming you're on a tempo oriented strategy.

[Aggro_zombies]

Because TItans=packs. And Mana Leak is there just to piss off nonblue players. :p
IIRC they said at the time that they reprinted Titans because they wanted continuity in Standard; because the Titans specifically cost a lot of money, they were worried there would be a community outcry if their expensive mythics disappeared after a year. Wizards figured it would be okay because they reprinted Baneslayer to no great fanfare, but there was a backlash pretty much as soon as the complete Titan cycle was spoiled.

So much for that one.

EDIT: @dontebiteitholmes: yes, I have played in both FNM and prereleases, for years in fact. But "the people who play in FNM" is, again, still just one part of "the people who play Magic." It's easy to forget that when you're a competitive player, but not everyone who plays Magic is such, and many of them object to Stone Rains and see a Geist with a Sword once in a very blue moon.

[SpikeyMikey]

http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/standard/23984_Im_Afraid_Of_The_Monsters.html

[ReAnimator]

I've just got to echo Aggro Zombies here a little bit in regards to your posts SpikeyMikey, it's pretty hard to take your opinions seriously when you are wanting Port and Counterspell to be reprinted cause you think that will make Delver less dominant. That just doesn't make any sense what so ever and i'm pretty sure that idea is patently absurd and most players from the mouth breathers to WotC R&D would agree. I've read your reasoning, and i don't come to any of the same conclusions regarding those cards, i was playing T2 back when port was around too.

[dontbiteitholmes]

IIRC they said at the time that they reprinted Titans because they wanted continuity in Standard; because the Titans specifically cost a lot of money, they were worried there would be a community outcry if their expensive mythics disappeared after a year. Wizards figured it would be okay because they reprinted Baneslayer to no great fanfare, but there was a backlash pretty much as soon as the complete Titan cycle was spoiled.

So much for that one.

EDIT: @dontebiteitholmes: yes, I have played in both FNM and prereleases, for years in fact. But "the people who play in FNM" is, again, still just one part of "the people who play Magic." It's easy to forget that when you're a competitive player, but not everyone who plays Magic is such, and many of them object to Stone Rains and see a Geist with a Sword once in a very blue moon.

I was under the impression that SpikeyMikes point was that the majority of players are scrubs and are less than qualified to sculpt the future of the game. FNM is not what I would consider competitive Magic. It's ground level Standard. If people are complaining because Stone Rain in Standard means their friends play Stone Rain against them at the kitchen table, then what's to stop their friends from playing Stone Rain anyways since kitchen table games between randoms are usually played casual without tournament rules? If people aren't playing in events why should it matter to them what's T2 legal? It's just easier to say, home rules "No LD" which many people do in casual even for defined formats, example EDH. Stone Rain is probably too good for Standard anyways, but LD should exist. If it only targets non-basics it should be a noob's dream anyways since no scrub is going to run a non-basic only Stone Rain at the kitchen table and in low tier events like FNM it's likely to be a completely dead card against them as well as reduce the likelyhood they will get their shit pushed back by a Prime Titan or Gideon round 2.

[Koby]

Valid points on LD. Nix Avalanche Riders. Give me this one:

http://magiccards.info/scans/en/ex/97.jpg

:trollface:

[Zirath]

Man, I would love to see all the market research data that lends such certainty to your conclusions.

How often does "the casual player who buys a couple of packs when a set comes out and then plays at his kitchen table a lot" get run over by Valakut? What you're describing sounds a lot more like "entry level competitive players" than "the guy who only plays EDH" or "the guy who only drafts" or "the guy who only plays in the school cafeteria with cards from ten years ago his brother gave him." What about these players? Are they all too mouth-breathingly retarded to have an opinion (unlike you, oh enlightened game-designing god)?

There are plenty of kitchen table kids or similar who want to play their deck at FNM, not the tiered deck. There are even kitchen table games where one of the players learns about a tiered deck and builds it and everyone else struggles to figure out how to beat it. If I was just starting to play magic and one of my friends brought Delver sans a few mythics to our kitchen table, I'm pretty sure I would be crushed by it repeatedly. Based on the cards in Innistrad and Scars block, I think it would take a while for me to make the amazing realization that playing red deck could potentially make me win because I can just burn him out without resorting to the internet.

A good number of these kids end up going to a LGS with the belief that their deck is very good. Same with SCGs. Hell, I've even seen people at decent sized Legacy events like the NELC playing a total pile (UR Illusions) because they built the deck themselves. In an environment where the players resist things like netdecking so they can preserve the uniqueness of their deck, some of the elements that Wizards has removed from the game, such as mana denial, are not desired by these players. How am I going to cast my titan if you get rid of my lands? Sure, it's more difficult to remove it from a format like Legacy or Modern, where a new player is excepted to avoid, but they can make Standard more appealing to these new players by making the format friendly on paper, with no further research.

Wizards doesn't design their game for balance; they design it to sell product. Balance is not a readily perceivable parameter of a game until the game has been played by a large enough group. We know the FFL does not do this well. This is just one of the pitfalls of a game that can only be changed by adding content or removing it. It's pretty hard to completely change what a card does while it's still being printed.

EDIT: A further point; a lot of young kids have been showing up to my FNM, which runs Legacy because it is the preferred format among players. Most of these kids just have whatever deck they bring to the kitchen table. Even if they have some sort of more competitive brew, they like to call us serious players 'cheaters' or 'mean' when we play FoW, Wasteland/Port, Chalice of the Void, Cabal Therapy or just about any combo deck and beat them. New players don't like the qualities of the game that competitive players do, because they involve stopping your opponent from doing things. Mana Leak is simply a bone they threw to competitive players who "like" blue.

[dontbiteitholmes]

There are plenty of kitchen table kids or similar who want to play their deck at FNM, not the tiered deck. There are even kitchen table games where one of the players learns about a tiered deck and builds it and everyone else struggles to figure out how to beat it. If I was just starting to play magic and one of my friends brought Delver sans a few mythics to our kitchen table, I'm pretty sure I would be crushed by it repeatedly. Based on the cards in Innistrad and Scars block, I think it would take a while for me to make the amazing realization that playing red deck could potentially make me win because I can just burn him out without resorting to the internet.

A good number of these kids end up going to a LGS with the belief that their deck is very good. Same with SCGs. Hell, I've even seen people at decent sized Legacy events like the NELC playing a total pile (UR Illusions) because they built the deck themselves. In an environment where the players resist things like netdecking so they can preserve the uniqueness of their deck, some of the elements that Wizards has removed from the game, such as mana denial, are not desired by these players. How am I going to cast my titan if you get rid of my lands? Sure, it's more difficult to remove it from a format like Legacy or Modern, where a new player is excepted to avoid, but they can make Standard more appealing to these new players by making the format friendly on paper, with no further research.

Wizards doesn't design their game for balance; they design it to sell product. Balance is not a readily perceivable parameter of a game until the game has been played by a large enough group. We know the FFL does not do this well. This is just one of the pitfalls of a game that can only be changed by adding content or removing it. It's pretty hard to completely change what a card does while it's still being printed.

EDIT: A further point; a lot of young kids have been showing up to my FNM, which runs Legacy because it is the preferred format among players. Most of these kids just have whatever deck they bring to the kitchen table. Even if they have some sort of more competitive brew, they like to call us serious players 'cheaters' or 'mean' when we play FoW, Wasteland/Port, Chalice of the Void, Cabal Therapy or just about any combo deck and beat them. New players don't like the qualities of the game that competitive players do, because they involve stopping your opponent from doing things. Mana Leak is simply a bone they threw to competitive players who "like" blue.

Plenty of the "lesser tier" players at my local FNM play Mana Leak. In the end people are just going to complain. No matter what the format or meta scrubs will be scrubs and they are going to hate losing to whatever they lose to. If that happens to be Mana Leak it's probably because 2/3 of their threats are garbage. So they aren't going to feel any better in the end when they lose to a turn 4 Titan or Hero of Bladehold or whatever. They are just going to switch to complaining about that. Right now it's easy for scrubs to complain about Mana Leak I guess because it counters their one bomb, but if it wasn't for Mana Leak they would just be losing to someone else's bomb Titan or Birthing Pod because their deck is still ass to the core. So in the end hopefully now that WotC has begun to neuter Standard they will realize people will complain about anything. Miracles + Caverns + no more Mana Leak post M12 feels like it's just handing the reigns over to scrubs who can randomly topdeck out of bad positions because they run cards that are conditionally bomby, but it can't be like this every rotation. Hopefully Ravnica 2.0 will be as good as the first time and fix everything they seem to be destroying currently.

[Artowis]

I wish people would stop saying Titans when what they really mean is Primeval Titan. Additionally the Titan cycle was an attempt to make a six-mana creature cycle that would be tournament playable. Titans stayed around for too long and perhaps Prime-Time should have been weakened slightly. Of course it can go the other way as well and had some of the lands not been there like Valakut or Wolf Run, Prime-Time would have been perfectly fine in Standard like the rest of the Titans.

Additionally Delver is like the 4th best card in Standard Delver, arguably 5th or 6th depending on how you rate Geist, Vapor Snag and Lingering Souls.

[KevinTrudeau]

You're missing the point here. If they're not having fun, they're not buying product, and if they're not buying product, MtG will go the way so many other TCGs have gone before it: StoppedProductionVille.

But I guess that doesn't matter if it's balanced and fun for you?

Was Ravnica not the highest selling set of all-time for its time (I suppose I don't know for sure, but it certainly was incredibly popular; same goes for Invasion)? Is it not within the realm of possibility to try to achieve both goals— continue to break fiscal records while also maintaining strategic depth? This is not to say Standard isn't a good format right now in terms of strategic depth, as it actually is, but SOM-INN and SOM-DKA have been the exceptions to the post-Alara rule (aside from the three month window when both M10 and M11 were legal, and it wasn't even that good then, just passable). Shouldn't the designers be expected to attain such a feat?

Your second post in this thread was very nice. I shall respond to it after I take a nap/the Twins game is over, because I am very tired right now.

Also, Mike, Rishadan Port was a bad example to use to make your point. Your conjecture for the most part is correct in the abstract, but the choice to utilize Rishadan Port as your concrete example has led to slightly frivolous, tangential discussion to your actual point.

[matunos]

I wish people would stop saying Titans when what they really mean is Giants.

Fixed that for you. Wouldn't want to get a game warning when you play your Cavern of Souls. :wink:

[Aggro_zombies]

Fixed that for you. Wouldn't want to get a game warning when you play your Cavern of Souls. :wink:
What he meant was "people using the entire cycle as a shorthand for discussion of Primeval Titan." On the whole, the rest of the Titans have been fine, it's just Prime Time who's egregiously powerful.

[Lord Seth]

Was Ravnica not the highest selling set of all-time for its time (I suppose I don't know for sure, but it certainly was incredibly popular; same goes for Invasion)?Mark Rosewater said a few years ago in an article that Mirrodin was the best selling set of all time.

[KevinTrudeau]

Mark Rosewater said a few years ago in an article that Mirrodin was the best selling set of all time.

Quite ironic considering the post you quoted contained a section on frivolous, tangential discussion. My point was that sets have been both well-designed and have sold well in the past, and that designers should strive to continue that trend; to quote and respond to a section that included a kicker I'd written specifically to attempt to dodge a response such as yours that doesn't actually address the point of my post whatsoever is honestly infuriating. It would have been one thing to include that factoid (a fact you likely didn't know offhand and just now searched up just to add to the discussion) as part of a longer post, but to make that the entirety of your contribution to the discussion isn't, I don't know, good.

Don't take that personally. I'm just heated that the Twins left like 12 guys on base in their 7-6 loss to Boston just now. Arcanis was one of my favorites back in the day.

[Lord Seth]

Quite ironic considering the post you quoted contained a section on frivolous, tangential discussion.Well you asked whether it was or not. I thought I should answer your question. I apologize if you meant it to be rhetorical.
(a fact you likely didn't know offhand and just now searched up just to add to the discussion)Actually, I did remember that offhand.

[Jeff Kruchkow]

I wish people would stop saying Titans when what they really mean is Primeval Titan. Additionally the Titan cycle was an attempt to make a six-mana creature cycle that would be tournament playable. Titans stayed around for too long and perhaps Prime-Time should have been weakened slightly. Of course it can go the other way as well and had some of the lands not been there like Valakut or Wolf Run, Prime-Time would have been perfectly fine in Standard like the rest of the Titans.

Additionally Delver is like the 4th best card in Standard Delver, arguably 5th or 6th depending on how you rate Geist, Vapor Snag and Lingering Souls.

The problem is, they don't just mean PrimeTime. Every titan except Frost is huge games if it resolves most of the time. Even if an aggressive deck immediately removes the titan, Inferno probably 2 for 1'd them, Grave leaves behind 2/2's, Sun Probably got something back, and Prime was obviously huge.

I play about 50/50 standard and legacy, and from what I can tell, the problem was never Mana Leak. In fact, no single card was "the problem". The problem right now is that wizards put a ton of cards that work very well in a tempo strategy in a set with no real way to fight tempo. Cavern helps because it means the ramp decks can go bigger and not get out countered. However, even a turn 4 titan can easily be raced by a turn one Delver. I've played exclusively control and Delver in this current standard and even when I build decks specifically to beat delver, I'll still drop games randomly to the deck out tempo'ing me. Sometimes its Geist+Sword. Others Delver+Leak. And others are Haunt+Pike. But the fact remains that banning or just never printing anyone of these cards doesn't really do a whole lot.

tl;dr: Wizards is trying to push the fact that they don't test well enough on one card being too good.

[Artowis]

The problem is, they don't just mean PrimeTime. Every titan except Frost is huge games if it resolves most of the time. Even if an aggressive deck immediately removes the titan, Inferno probably 2 for 1'd them, Grave leaves behind 2/2's, Sun Probably got something back, and Prime was obviously huge.

I play about 50/50 standard and legacy, and from what I can tell, the problem was never Mana Leak. In fact, no single card was "the problem". The problem right now is that wizards put a ton of cards that work very well in a tempo strategy in a set with no real way to fight tempo. Cavern helps because it means the ramp decks can go bigger and not get out countered. However, even a turn 4 titan can easily be raced by a turn one Delver. I've played exclusively control and Delver in this current standard and even when I build decks specifically to beat delver, I'll still drop games randomly to the deck out tempo'ing me. Sometimes its Geist+Sword. Others Delver+Leak. And others are Haunt+Pike. But the fact remains that banning or just never printing anyone of these cards doesn't really do a whole lot.

tl;dr: Wizards is trying to push the fact that they don't test well enough on one card being too good.

Dude it's a six-mana spell, it SHOULD do something. The Titan cycle is essentially a decent to good spell attached to a large body.

[Darkenslight]

Dude it's a six-mana spell, it SHOULD do something. The Titan cycle is essentially a decent to good spell attached to a large body.

To be fair, when one of those spells is double Crop Rotation without the sacrifice, and the rest are:

one-sided Unearth for permanents
Twiddle with the slow-untap
Arc Lightning
and Black Grizzly Fate

There seems to be a teensy bit of an imbalance.

I suspect that stronger LD is probably needed, but not so much as to recreate Ponza. From the looks of things, there are currently two major complaints (merited or otherwise): that Blue is too strong in Standard, and that Delver and Tiago are too good for Blue creatures.

[edgewalker]

EDIT: Scratch all that, wizards just doesn't know dick about testing cards before release. All the cards we're talking about would be fine by themselves or with different card. Wolf Run without Titan seems fair and vice versa, (replace wolf run with any broken land) snapcaster and mana leak/unsummon, hexproof and swords, etc.

[DragoFireheart]

SUPER EDIT: Wizards just doesn't know dick about cards.

Fix'd.

[dontbiteitholmes]

I suspect that stronger LD is probably needed, but not so much as to recreate Ponza. From the looks of things, there are currently two major complaints (merited or otherwise): that Blue is too strong in Standard, and that Delver and Tiago are too good for Blue creatures.

That's the worst part though. Delver and Snapcaster aren't even OP. They are really good for sure, but the OP part is that your plan B is to drop an untargetable creature and slap a sword on it so it effectively becomes a 2/3 turn clock. The only real problem now, pre-AVR in Standard, is that there are too few answers to Hex-proof guys and equipment.

Post AVR I'm worried that Caverns will push control completely out of the meta and it will just be Humans vs. Zombies vs. Ramp vs. RG Aggro which would be crucially boring.

[Aggro_zombies]

http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/standard/23984_Im_Afraid_Of_The_Monsters.html
I can't read that, but here's a free article: http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/standard/23994_Counters_Fatties_And_Interactivity.html

[DragoFireheart]

Here's the fundamental problem with magic that I have seen for a long time.

People play magic. They play dudes, swing, kill each others dudes, and someone wins. At some point, someone finds X combo, which utterly kills any other deck that is either:

A- Too slow.

B- Can't stop the combo.

So what happens? People play controlling decks so they can still play dudes and turn them sideways (or go full control). To beat those decks with counters, you play your deck wit lots of threats. Combo, Control, Aggro. There are variations of these basic arch-types, like mid-range and prison and aggro-control and what have you, but that is how many decks balance out. The multi-threat decks keep the controlling decks in check while the controlling decks keep the powerful combo decks in check. The powerful combo decks keep the multi-threat decks in check.

For whatever reason, this method of balance is not enough for some people.


The Titans very much care about the text box of your opponent's cards and the structure of your own deck; Mana Leak cares about resolving against something more expensive than itself. Mana Leak encourages people to not care about text boxes; the Titans encourage the opposite.

The issue with argument is that it assumes the player with Mana Leak knew about the Titan in the first place. What if the other player was baiting some other powerful card? Do I counter it? Or do I save it for his Titan? Can I kill this other threat without the counter? In this regard, Mana Leak DOES care not only about cards already on the board, but ones that aren't.

The problem is that both cards, Mana Leak and Primeval Titan, are counterbalancing each other. If I don't counter the Titan, I will likely lose, but if I do, I may win. Take out one of the cards, and you risk the other simply overwhelming the meta.

I think that when the card pool of cards is narrow, it becomes easier for a single deck to overwhelm a meta. Consider previous eras of Stanard. Jund and Caw Blade are examples of decks that overwhelmed their respective metas.

[DragoFireheart]

Maverick isn't exactly a very controlling deck and most combo players I've spoken to seem to hate the matchup. Thalia and Teeg are kind of gameplan-breaking for them while being incredibly tedious to remove.

Oh and I agree. I wasn't trying to say that Maverick is a aggro deck. It's probably more of a aggro-control deck due to all of the hate bears they run.

[matunos]

Oh and I agree. I wasn't trying to say that Maverick is a aggro deck. It's probably more of a aggro-control deck due to all of the hate bears they run.

Maverick is generally considered a midrange deck.

But your comments about the balance between archetypes is spot on. You can currently see the clock in working order in Legacy. I don't know about Standard.