Yes, this is an evolved version of what I used to think of as UGB Thresh. I've chosen to create a new thread, however, because the other thread was cluttered with different possible directions in which to take the deck, and so it lacked focus. From those suggested directions, a few proved particularly attractive, and this is the result: a deck that's part Threshold, part Tog, and a whole lot of WTF?!
First, a decklist:
1 Island
1 Swamp
2 Forest
3 Windswept Heath
3 Polluted Delta
4 Underground Sea
1 Bayou
3 Tropical Island
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Nimble Mongoose
3 Wild Mongrel
2 Genesis
2 Psychatog
1 Tombstalker
1 Wonder
2 Darkblast
3 Life from the Loam
3 Ghastly Demise
3 Daze
4 Force of Will
2 Pernicious Deed
3 Serum Visions
2 Brainstorm
3 Mental Note
SB:
4 Leyline of the Void
3 Stifle
3 Engineered Plague
2 Tombstalker
3 Engineered Explosives
Why play this over other Threshold or ‘Tog variants? As always, I’ll be honest about my biases, but I believe that this deck is more resilient than typical Threshold or ‘Tog builds, and the reason for this lies in the combination of strategies. TarmoTog begins the game aggressively, much like Threshold (except perhaps a little more aggressive—you want those extra points of damage). It has more (and bigger) creatures, however, and thanks to Genesis it can recur them when it needs to (thus effectively negating most removal). When the aggro strategy starts to wind down, you can easily switch into ‘Tog mode and swing for a bazillion with a flying Psychatog (or just cinch the deal with Tombstalker). The dependence on the graveyard is significantly less than in most Threshold decks for two reasons:
1.) By and large, your creatures don’t suck without a graveyard (at least, not as much).
2.) Because you have both a cantrip engine and a dredge engine, recovering from temporary graveyard hate is much easier (you’ve also got Deed and Explosives for Leylines and Planar Void, although obviously it would be better not to depend on these).
As far as more traditional Psychatog builds are concerned, my problem with them has usually been that they aren’t quite aggressive enough (at least, not for my taste—I don’t feel comfortable running 6-8 creatures in a format rife with removal); what I like even less is the reliance on a single massive swing (eggs, basket, etc.). Granted, I’m an aggro kind of guy--on the other hand, StP (which any Legacy deck with at least a white splash—and there are a lot--is bound to run) really sucks when you only runs two or three Psychatogs. Even better, Pithing Needle is largely irrelevant as a hate card, since the deck does not depend on Psychatog and can even side it out in favour of Tombstalker.
Sure, Psychatog decks have a scary number of counterspells—but these cards are reactive, and leave the deck largely defenceless if or when something punches through. While TarmoTog retains a minimum of counter-power, it relies more on Deed to clear the way for lethal attacks/whatever. It’s also obviously much more aggressive (especially initially) than ‘Tog decks are, and therein, I think, lies its strength: TarmoTog’s creatures can all win the game on their own. You don’t need Psychatog or Mystic Enforcer (in this case, Tombstalker) to win the game—you can punch through with Mongrels/Goyfs/Mongeese. Indeed, I’ve found that a number of games are resolved without a finisher (‘Tog or ‘Stalker) ever touching the table.
So… yes, I’m biased toward my creation. On the other hand, I think that it embodies the best of both worlds (Threshold and Tog), and I feel that the result is well worth noting. The deck’s composition gives it strong options in role assignment, and indeed allows it to switch roles at pretty much any point in a game—you can be aggro when you need to be, and you can be more controlling when that’s what’s required, but the best thing (in my opinion) about the deck is its ability to apply tremendous early pressure and then simply sit back and turtle through the opponent’s riposte until a kill can be set up.
How it works. Well, this part is pretty straightforward, especially for people who are familiar with Psychatog and Terra-Geddon. Open with a cantrip, follow up with a creature (hopefully Mongrel or Tarmogoyf), and continue to cantrip/cast creatures at your leisure while you beat face. Once your creatures start having a harder time getting through, switch into your control elements; that is, dig for Genesis/Wonder/Deed/Tombstalker and counter what you can’t answer. Your hardest matchups are against combo, but you can fight through. Don’t hesitate to shift gears (from aggro to control, or whatever) to keep your opponent off-balance long enough to kill him.
The deck’s initial games are mostly favourable, since few decks run hate in the main deck (although, at present, Leyline is hanging around for Hulk). The biggest problem the deck faces is splash hate, since graveyard hate and Pithing Needle all work against it. I’ve tried to minimize this kind of hate’s effect on the deck (by giving it a quick graveyard recovery system and a certain independence from the grave, as well as by giving it alternative finishers), and these measures are certainly successful—nonetheless, the problem remains. That means that your second and third games will be harder, but I think that the deck has enough initial resilience that clever sideboarding (and in-game gear-shifting) will prove to be enough of a defense. In testing, this has certainly been the case.
Single Card Discussion:
Genesis - Single-handedly negates most removal, thus allowing you to make aggressive openings (trading with whatever your removal can’t touch, etc.).
Wonder - As in traditional Psychatog builds, Wonder is here to prevent stalemates and to allow for lethal attacks. Perhaps it would be worth having a second one around, somehow.
Tombstalker - Often questioned. Usually, the complaint is that he eats the graveyard. What most of his detractors fail to realise, however, is that TarmoTog’s graveyard is a resource, unlike Threshold, where it’s a necessity (even a crutch). Nimble Mongoose suffers under Tombstalker, and Ghastly Demise can too (you should have used most by the time you cast the ‘stalker—or, if it’s early, you shouldn’t need them), but that’s it. Tarmogoyf doesn’t much care because he feeds off of your opponent’s graveyard as well. Your dredge engines are there just to enable you to feed Tombstalker and Psychatog, so that doesn’t matter either (plus, you should try to keep at least a single dredger in there if you can)—besides which, you can recover your grave quickly enough. As a one-of, he’s a healthy alternative finisher (rather than Psychatog), since he flies without Wonder. Also, if you can pull off a turn 2-3 ‘Stalker (especially after boarding, when Needles target Psychatog and Mongrel), then you’re really set. Ultimately, when you play Tombstalker, you’re playing him to win—at that point, what’s in the grave is less relevant (either because there’s more than enough in there, or because you just need a fattie with evasion). If I’ve already whittled you down to 5 or so life prior to casting Tombstalker, I’m not really going to care if my Mongoose goes back down to 1.
Tarmogoyf - Better than Werebear in every way, reduces dependence on my own graveyard.
Nimble Mongoose - A quality one-drop that can’t be targeted. Easy to recur with Genesis.
Psychatog - A secondary of even tertiary strategy option. If the smaller ones can’t quite punch through, use Psychatog to crush the defences.
Darkblast - One-drop answer to Lackey that feeds Tarmogoyf, Mongoose, Ghastly Demise, Psychatog, Genesis, Wonder, etc.
Ghastly Demise - The weakest slot in the deck, since it can’t target black creatures and is also dependent on your graveyard. Vendetta is the only other real in-colour option, but I dislike the life loss (since Demise is best used against fatties).
Life from the Loam – Helps you skirt LD strategies, feeds the grave, and pumps Mongrel and Psychatog
Pernicious Deed - Too important not to play. Deed is both a wrath-effect and more pinpointed removal, and clearing the board is always good—especially since you can just use Genesis to put the fat back on the table. Deed is the bane of Legacy’s lower tiers, and that alone is a great reason to run it. Destroying hate is awesome.
Sideboard:
Leyline of the Void – Preliminary Hulk-Flash hate. It also works well in the mirror, versus IggyPop/TES, Reanimator, Ichorid, etc. We’ll see what happens to HulkFlash before changing the slot.
Engineered Explosives – More sweeping destruction. Always a friend. Takes out tokens and Chalices and so on.
Tombstalker - Sometimes, a more independent finisher is better than Psychatog or whatever other creature. Also works to negate Needles effect on you.
Suggested (but dismissed):
Intuition: There’s no real room for a tutor like this. Indeed, it’s more useful (and more important) in traditional Tog than here, since this deck doesn’t need anything specific to beat face.
Berserk: Just a win-more card. It’s more useful in typical Tog lists, which tend to be creature-light. Sure, using it on Mongrel/Tog/Goyf is attractive, but it’s unnecessary since you’ll be applying pressure from the very start. It will help you win a turn earlier, but that’s not really enough to justify it’s inclusion over something else. Besides, it’s expensive.
Brainstorm: Usually, people want more Brainstorm. In many cases, I would agree. In this case, however, I disagree (and of course I may be wrong) because I believe that Brainstorm is less effective in this deck. That is to say:
1.) Tarmogoyf needs to be fed, and in a deck that needs so many instants, we must pass to sorceries as much as possible: that means Serum Visions. You can count on your opponent to give Tarmogoyf a land, creature, and an instant--sorceries, however, are much rarer. In this case, I've given Serum Visions precedence over Brainstorm to reflect that reality.
2.) Mental Note is far more integral to your initial (!) strategy--in many respects, Mental Note is the best cantrip in and for the deck. Again, however, I hesitate to run four due to balance: there are already too many instants in the deck, and it seems clear that Brainstorm's library stacking ability is necessary in some degree. It also has to be said that Mental Note doesn't always get what you need, and that it increases graveyard dependence by forcing you to put something good in the grave (that is, it structures your playstyle for the next few turns).
Nevertheless, it's true that Brainstorm is amazing, and I'm certainly not averse to running more. The question, however, is one of balance, and that will definitely necessitate further testing; I'm also open to all suggestions, of course. Just bear in mind that there’s a pretty fine balance that needs to be maintained.
Some matchups:
Goblins: Even or better, pre-board. You have a much better intial matchup than either Threshold or Tog due to your increased fat and sweepers. Start by beating face for a couple turns, and then you should arrive at a stalemate. Attack (and block) carefully while you wait for Genesis, Wonder, Tombstalker, Psychatog, or Deed to give you an advantage. Darkblast is re-usable, so use it. Post-board, you gain Plague and Engineered Explosives to complement your Deeds, which ultimately really turn the matchup in your favour. I also like to replace Psychatog with the Tombstalkers, which don’t need to wait to fly. Bringing in Stifle for Daze can also be a good move.
Hulk Flash: Initially, not an easy matchup. You obviously need to be countering Flash, but really, you don’t have enough time to set up for a win. Post-board, Engineered Explosives buys you the time you need (blow up mana sources), as do Leyline and Stifle.
The EPIC Storm: Another ugly matchup. With Deed, you might be able to force your opponent into a Tendrils-win if you can stall long enough with Fow/Daze, but it will only get you so far. I expect to lose game one. For subsequent games, Engineered Explosives, Leyline of the Void, and Stifle should come in.
IggyPop: Easier to deal with than other storm-combo decks, since your counters are actually useful (countering either Ill-Gotten Gains or the tutor reaching for it, etc.). Still, game one could be ugly. Afterwards, you gain Stifle and Leyline, which should even things out for you.
Solidarity: Without Stifle, don’t expect to win this one. Even then, victory is less than certain.
Faerie Stompy: Usually a pretty exciting match. The amount of removal that you run will pose problems for Faerie Stompy, but FS can easily break out Chalice and Pithing Needle to slow you down. Needle is especially unfortunate since Mongrel is the real all-star in this matchup (Psychatog too, but Mongrel comes out faster). Counter Chalice, however, and you should be OK. If you don’t, expect a hard time initially, while you’re busy trying to set up a dredge engine (by the way, a Chalice set at two is DOOM!). For subsequent games, you want Engineered Explosives—and you don’t really want Darkblast.
Reanimator: Big, flying pro-black (and black) things are NOT good. Deed, Daze, and FoW, however, ARE. Expect a fight, game one. For subsequent games, Stifle, Leyline, and Tombstalker should make things more favourable for you.
Ichorid: See Reanimator (except with EE instead of Stifle).
CRET Belcher: Win some, lose some. You need to counter Belcher to win. In fact, you’ll probably lose game one. For subsequent games, you gain Stifle and Engineered Explosives, and these should help immensely. Even then, however, this is no bye.
More/more details to follow as I get around to typing them up. :)
looks interesting to say the least... why run loam without cyclers though... it would have a triple purpose as an engine, hand filler (for your discard suite), and a manabase defender.. I would suggest 5-7 cyclers (perhapes instead of your draw).. overall looks interesting though.
That's a very interesting thought, but cutting too many cantrips might necessitate cutting blue altogether (less stuff to pitch to FoW = uncool), which I hesitate to do given the upsurge in combo decks of late. I also hesitate because doing so might just be tantamount to making a worse TerraGeddon. What (in the cantrips) would you suggest cutting for them? I would say Serum Visions, myself, but once again, I hesitate to lower the sorcery count. On the other hand, it may be possible to dig for Loam... cutting more than 3 cantrips would present too great a danger to the deck's integrity, I think. EVen then, going down to 14 blue cards (counting 4 FoW) is icky for FoW...Originally Posted by thefreakaccident
Well, I'll pretend that the Serum Visions are Tranquil Thickets/Lonely Sandbars/Barren Moors long enough to test a few games. Perhaps I'll still be able to dig for Loam reliably enough to feed Tarmogoyf.
Besides cards to pitch to the Tog/Mongrel, Loam isn't particularly useful.
You need a lot more draw/dig. One of which should be Portent, probably. See Gro's cantrip base for inspiration.
Also your counter base is bad enough to lose to combo. You run exactly 7 cards that are relevant to any combo deck, and almost half of those can be played around. Aggro-control does not want to lose to combo.
TEAM DRAGONFORCIA-
Ghost ridin' the whip like we invented that shit.
TEAM UNICORN
We're going for number four!
I agree. Your use of loam is subpar at best. You really should be running some land cyclers.
Tombstalker is...iffy. You say that you use it as a finisher but won't wonder (a card your already using) work the same way if not better with 'Tog?
Darkblast is meh. Too situational and a dead card against a lot of decks. Goblins is being hated out anyway by the presence of combo. I'd take those out for more Ghastly demise/countermagic.
Agreed on Darkblast, it doesn't do all that much.
Anyway, I've been messing around with my version of this deck (U/B/G is my favorite color combo and the Goyf is just too cool not to build a deck around).
Tarmo-Gro
May 11, 2007
4 Brainstorm
4 Mental Note
4 Serum Visions
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
3 Duress
2 Counterspell
3 Pernicious Deed
3 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Engineered Explosives
4 Dark Confidant
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Tombstalker
4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
4 Underground Sea
3 Tropical Island
2 Island
1 Swamp
// Sideboard
SB: 4 Engineered Plague
SB: 4 Leyline of the Void
SB: 3 Pithing Needle
SB: 2 Krosan Grip
SB: 2 Loaming Shaman
Mental Note allows for the turn-2 4/5 Goyf and helps accelerate your Tomb Stalkers. The rest is just a standard Gro/Thresh shell.
It's a little rough around the edges, but makes for good times.
The list looks good overall bardo... I have to question deed n this kind of list though (the only permanent that looks like it'll stick is tombstalker)... the goyf/confidant/jitte are all 2 cc, which can be troublesome with deed. I would actually try to put top in the deck (makes confidant basically free draw + doesn't die to deed, as well as fixing your draws for the rest of the game)... I can see it doing well, but that's just me.
I wasn't going to post until after we find out what happens with Hulk Flash, but I can't keep it in any more, so I'm posting now, prematurely.
1 Island
1 Swamp
1 Forest
4 Underground Sea
3 Tropical Island
2 Bayou
3 Windswept Heath
3 Polluted Delta
3 Serum Visions
3 Mental Note
2 Brainstorm
3 Daze
4 Force of Will
3 Life from the Loam
3 Ghastly Demise
2 Pernicious Deed
2 Umezawa's Jitte
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Wild Mongrel
2 Genesis
2 Psychatog
2 Stinkweed Imp
2 Brain Gorgers / Used to--and could still--be Duress
1 Wonder
1 Tombstalker
Sideboard:
3 Stifle
3 Engineered Explosives
2 Duress
2 Cabal Therapy
3 Naturalize
2 Tombstalker
So, what changes have I made?
Umezawa's Jitte - Basically, my removal replacement for Darkblast. Obviously, the Jitte is superior, since it spells "Game Over" once it resolves--especially with recurring creatures. Stole the idea from Bardo (well, from everyone, myself included, but seeing it in his list made me realize that there's a really good place for it in here).
Stinkweed Imp - Well, I was having a few problems: lack of removal, lack of a significant Dredge engine, and the notable absence of independent fliers. Stinkweed Imp helps to solve each and every one of those problems, although the Dredge is clearly the most significant of the three.
Brain Gorgers - I expect some raised eyebrows here. Originally, I had Duress in that slot. Then, a person I played against on MWS (Uncle Istavan) made the suggestion that I try to fit in Brain Gorgers, and so that's just what I'm trying to do. The reasons for doing so? Since I run both Mongrel and Tog, discarding the Gorgers is a fairly easy task, which in turn makes playing it for its madness cost very feasible. The best part, however, is that Brain Gorgers is a fattie (albeit fragile, but with Genesis, who cares?) that I can play at instant speed! Either that, or it instantly removes one of my opponent's worst creatures (which won't necessarily be a bad critter to get rid of). At the cost of two mana and pumping a Mongrel/Tog, I'll do it any day! What's also good is that it increases my independence from the graveyard, something that's been steadily decreasing of late and which is becoming increasingly relevant in the face of Leyline splash-hate.It may just be a cute trick and little more, but right now it's totally worth testing out--and so, I am. I suppose it also brings up the question of Circular Logic (perhaps in place of Daze), but I dislike that it increases my dependence on the graveyard, and it requires Mongrel or Tog to remain in play in order to be particularly effective.
Nimble Mongoose - Great card (especially with Genesis), cut because it depends on Threshold for its greatness. While not a problem in and of itself, what came in for it (the new cards) have made the cut more than worthwhile.
Pretty much the entire sideboard - Although I can easily goldfish on turns 4-5, it's obvious that I've sacrificed my combo matchups for improved matchups elsewhere. Consequently, my sideboard needs to be largely dedicated to combo--which it obviously is. It's not the greatest (I'd like to fit Needle for Belcher and various other things, for example), but it'S good enough at the moment. The biggest problem for me right now is Hulk Flash, because its prevalence means that altogether too many Leylines of the Void are running around unattended. And while you can play around just a Leyline (or three, which has happened), things get uglier when it's backed up by something else that's nasty. Accordingly, the sideboard will really depend on what the meta is like in the months to come. I've currently got Naturalize to help things, and Brain Gorgers is especially useful when Leyline is out. Indeed, the overall graveyard dependence is greatly reduced by the fact that everything does something on its own. Still, as I said, the SB is really a think in flux given the prospective meta changes to come; nevertheless, I think that the core of the SB should be Tombstalker, Engineered Explosives, and Stifle.
Some Issues:
Not enough draw - This has been brought up a few times, but I beg to differ. The cantrips are not there to draw (that function is merely incidental): they are there to fill your graveyard. Plus, you need to count Dredge as a card advantage engine, because it gives you resources that you can use (to grow things, cast Tombstalker, reuse to pump Mongrel, make Demise relevant, and even to cast creatures outright. That makes for a 13-card engine, which is more than acceptable.
Including cycle-lands is a good idea, but I suspect it's a dangerously cool thing to do, and I don't think that the deck, cluttered as it is with strategies and ideas, can do it justice. Besides, TerraGeddon would always do it better anyway.
I'm not really abusing LftL in a big way - It's true, and I'll readily admit it. The best way to use it is as TerraGeddon and Lands do. On the other hand, while my use may not be optimal (due largely to a lack of cycle lands), it's more than enough. The sheer advantage that it generates is more than enough to warrant its inclusion. Not only does it Dredge, it also counts as a sorcery--plus, it makes Mongrel deal 2 extra damage a turn, and it makes Tog deal 4-5 extra. That alone is enough to warrant its inclusion. Without LftL, the deck would not do nearly as well as it does. Not to mention that it protects an otherwise vulnerable manabase. Hell, just the other day I went 2-3 against a dedicated land destruction deck (it was, in fact, very good--I thoroughly enjoyed the build) thanks solely to Loam. Honestly, I think that it does more than its share of work in the deck as it is.
That's it for my huge update--for now. I've got revised matchups incoming in the next little while. The deck is a blast, and has proven to have amazing aggressivity and staying power.
Now, I want to Mongrel out some Brain Gorgers.
Last edited by Goaswerfraiejen; 05-26-2007 at 04:37 PM.
With the inclusion of Stinkweed Imp (and the other changes I recently made), Intuition looks a LOT better than it did before. Hanni was kind enough to help me effectuate the changes necessary to support a pretty scary Intuition:
-1 Stinkweed Imp
-1 Genesis
-2 Life from the Loam
+4 Intuition
In addition to that, we changed the following:
-1 Tropical Island
-2 Underground Sea
+1 Wasteland
+2 Lonely Sandbar
I suspect that the mana base could still be tweaked, but it's certainly set for a much more effective Intuition, which itself has, I confess, proven quite stellar in my recent testing. As far as the Sandbars go, the jury's still out on them. I'm not convinced that I'd not rather have basics or duals in their place, but for now, it works.
Brain Gorgers? Well, I still like the added aggro/removal. People's creatures in Legacy tend to matter (except Goblins, sigh), and recurring the Gorgers with Genesis can get ridiculous. On the other hand, Cabal Therapy (or Duress, but I prefer Therapy MD in my meta) is probably a good contendor for that slot. Until I'm flamed to death, I'll keep seeing how the Gorgers work out, and whether when I cast/draw them I'd rather have a Therapy.
Last comment: the renewed presence of Leyline of the Void SUCKS. Tormod's Crypt could be ignored, but Leyline makes things more difficult. I've actually come out of most encounters quite well so far, either destroying it with Naturalize/Deed or just beating around it (Braingorgers!). Still, it's a headache. Playing around it usually means boarding out Loam, Genesis, and Wonder in favour of Cabal Therapy and... well, whatever needs to come in (Duress, EE, 'Stalker for hardcasting). If the creatures are black, Demise needs to come out too. Overall, however, the deck has been doing great, and I think it's well worth playing--especially if Flash is banned.
For reference, the current monstrosity of a list:
1 Island
1 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Wasteland
2 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
2 Bayou
2 Lonely Sandbar
3 Windswept Heath
3 Polluted Delta
4 Intuition
3 Serum Visions
3 Mental Note
2 Brainstorm
3 Daze
4 Force of Will
3 Life from the Loam
3 Ghastly Demise
2 Pernicious Deed
2 Umezawa's Jitte
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Wild Mongrel
2 Psychatog
2 Brain Gorgers
1 Genesis
1 Wonder
1 Stinkweed Imp
1 Tombstalker
Sideboard:
3 Stifle
3 Engineered Explosives
2 Duress
2 Cabal Therapy
3 Naturalize
2 Tombstalker
First of all I woule like to say: Great deck! Really nice idea, and it looks very interesting to say at least. I think your doing pretty well, developing the deck, but i have a few concerns about some choices I (and a couple of others I suppose) would like a deeper explanation about.
1)
2 Pernicious Deed
2 Umezawa's Jitte
Why only two? You can't tutor them up with intuition, and you can't retrieve them from the grave with something like Eternal Witness/Regrowth so you won't be getting them that way. And with only 2 of each, you can't rely on drawing them (at least thats my experience, that 2-ofs works bad without tutor/dredge+witness combo). Don't get me wrong! I really like those two cards, especially Deed (which I see as the strongest mass removal in format atm), but I just can't accept to see them as 2-ofs, mostly because they are awesome cards but also because it's an odd number. Also a smaller concern would be that, you run jitte with, what 10ish creatures?
Oh btw, both deed and jitte is card types that are unique in the deck, so playing more of them would feed Goyf easier. Goyf ftw.
2)
2 Brain Gorgers
Im still like "WTF?!" about these. I can see that they are somehow techy that they with discard outlet is a diabolic edict or 4/2 beater forbut they just seem so janky. Also, at least my experience tells me, that playing cards which allows your opponent to choose is kinda bad, cause its most of the time is unpredictable. I dunno maybe I just need to wake up and accept new janky cards, but they do seem weird to me.
3)
1 Tombstalker
Me so puzzled. It's a great card but WHY is it a 1-of? Again, no tutor, no eternal witness/regrowth, so I can't figure out why you play it like this. I really like that the deck is able to play 3 of them post SB, but pre SB it just look like a random topdeck card IMO.
Thats all I got to say for now. I really would like to help develop the deck.
- Mordenkain <3 Tarmogoyf
This is debatable depending on how big my boobs feel in the morning.
Oh, one thing before I start: I suspect that Cabal Therapy is a better SB choice than Duress. Since I'll know what my opponent is playing, I feel it's better to have essentially 8 Cabal Therapies in the board (through creature recursion). The fact that they can even hit creatures is a bonus, if it's ever necessary.
You're right, and it's something I've been struggling with. I think that both are necessary, but the question is how to fit the extra two in. The obvious slot would be Brain Gorgers, but I've got some concerns there as well, which I'll explain later. I've had to be careful with my dredging in games that draw out, for fear of killing a Deed or Jitte that would win me the game. I also agree that Intuition is probably part of the solution. One drawback, of course, is that going up to three increases the likelihood of dredging one away, which then makes Intuition useless for it anyway. Still, I think that you're right, and it's worth it. Right now, I've got one spare slot to give these: I've given it to Jitte since I can always use it reactively (destroy opposing Jitte) or proactively (equip, wreak havoK with a "K") but that's by no means set in stone.
As of the list you're referring to, 15 (two of which like the graveyard, but can still be hardcast fairly easily). That's more than enough for Jitte, which isn't Vial. Also relevant here is Genesis recursion. When Leyline of the Void is brought in against me later, Jitte becomes much, much more relevant than in the first game, in which it's usually expendable.Also a smaller concern would be that, you run jitte with, what 10ish creatures?
I've given these a great deal of consideration and testing, and I've concluded that I had the right idea but the wrong application. What I wanted was some sort of increased and non-graveyard-dependent removal (even if only for weenies) to balance out the absence of anything stellar. Part of the solution was Stinkweed Imp, and part was Brain Gorgers. I also wanted to capitalize on Mongrel/Tog's discard abilities (especially in conjunction with Genesis) to cast something fairly large and scary to beat face with--again, especially after something like Leyline hit the table.2)
2 Brain Gorgers
Im still like "WTF?!" about these. I can see that they are somehow techy that they with discard outlet is a diabolic edict or 4/2 beater for
So: removal, fattie.
Since then, I think I've found a better way to occupy those slots:
Independent Removal: Big Game Hunter
Independent Fattie: Arrogant Wurm
Both have Madness, and both fulfill the roles that I needed the Brain Gorgers to, with none of the disadvantages.
Big Game Hunter: Targeted removal that isn't colour-specific or graveyard dependent. The fact that it can't hit weenies is far from a problem: anything with power less than four is going to have a hard time competing against the stuff in this deck. Fatties, however, are problematic when graveyard access is cut off--and, well, they're generally scary regardless, so... The most important thing here is that it can hit black and doesn't need a million things in the graveyard to be effective.
Arrogant Wurm: Strong beatstick, graveyard-independent, cheap Madness.
How they'll work as one-ofs remains to be seen, but I suspect that it's well worth it. Since they're creatures, using Intuition to get them is still fairly effective (yay Genesis!).
I'm quite happy with these discoveries thus far (I have yet to play them/need them in testing, but I've only been testing with the change for about an hour or so), since they reduce my dependence on the graveyard, are decent topdecks, and increase the deck's aggressivity (well, the Wurm does, at least).
Mostly, the Delve cost. Maindeck, I think of it as Psychatog number 3--except that it has Flying without Wonder. Which, basically, it is--since those 7 cards = +3/+3 for Tog, making it 4/5. Except that it keeps the pumpage, which is HAWT! More than one in the main deck, however, might cause problems with Wonder, Genesis, and the real Togs. Oh, while we're on the subject (for anyone who might be wondering)--I've found that it's best to remove instants first, since you can't recur them and your opponent usually plays a few to pump Tarmogoyf. After that, extaneous artifacts/enchantments, then lands. Creatures last.3)
1 Tombstalker
Me so puzzled. It's a great card but WHY is it a 1-of? Again, no tutor, no eternal witness/regrowth, so I can't figure out why you play it like this. I really like that the deck is able to play 3 of them post SB, but pre SB it just look like a random topdeck card IMO.
In any case, I've now relegated the Tombstalkers to the SB only, as replacements for Psychatog when necessary (when facing Needle, Leyline of the Void, etc.). I'm not sure if it's better to have Arrogant Wurm/Big Game Hunter MD over at least one Tombstalker, but that's how I plan to test it next. The extra slot has gone to Jitte, as I said earlier.
Thanks for the help thus far. As for developing the deck--knock yourself out. I'm not a particularly good player (just avid), so I can use all the help anyone's willing to offer.Thats all I got to say for now. I really would like to help develop the deck.
- Mordenkain <3 Tarmogoyf
Current Decklist:
Island
1 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Wasteland
2 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
2 Bayou
2 Lonely Sandbar
3 Windswept Heath
3 Polluted Delta
4 Intuition
3 Serum Visions
3 Mental Note
2 Brainstorm
3 Daze
4 Force of Will
3 Ghastly Demise
3 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Pernicious Deed
1 Life from the Loam
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Wild Mongrel
2 Psychatog
1 Genesis
1 Wonder
1 Stinkweed Imp
1 Big Game Hunter
1 Arrogant Wurm
Sideboard:
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Stifle
3 Engineered Explosives
3 Naturalize
2 Tombstalker
Last edited by Goaswerfraiejen; 06-03-2007 at 01:20 AM. Reason: Errors in the list.
Good to see that youve read my post and considered it. I must say I like the look of the new list much better than the old one, although, a few more concerns/thoughts that ive done in the meantime:
1)
Im still not happy with these. Ive played burn with Browbeat and played some semi-serious G/R agro ***** with Book Burning and the "choose" effect of the opponent is really really bad. In all cases (unless your opponent is a tard, which is a battle you should win anyway) you will get the least wanted choice. Always. Playing a 4/2 for2 Brain Gorgers
I think Big Game Hunter is a suitable change from Gorgers, but still im not all that sure. Its inability to remove Meddling Mages, Bears, Gooses, Lackeys, etc. is not good. Also it can't remove important critters that arent made for attacking, like said Meddling Mage or creatures like Goblin Welder.
I think you should find a replacement for the gorgers. Really.
2)
One half of me like this principle. 8 cards, essentially serving the same purpose, different sides of the same coin.3 Serum Visions
3 Mental Note
2 Brainstorm
The other half of me are about to stab my own eyes out because of this. Only playing 2 Brainstorms is really not something I would do. Really. I understand the inclusion of them all:
Brainstorm: Sheer awesomeness.
Serum Visions: Good dig, better than brainstorm in this deck. Normally i wouldnt put Serum Visions up on Brainstorm level becuase of sorcery speed, but being a sorcery in this deck is good, becuase it feeds Goyf.
Mental Note: Instant draw with grave fill effect.
I think that with the intuition+loam engine, gettings cards in the yard is easy enough with note. If I were you I would cut the notes and play 4/4 storm/visions for increased card quality and better sorcery/instant ratio.
3)
This more a loose though/idea than a concern. First of all, I would like to increase the decks consistency, which means less reliance on silver bullets and more 4-ofs and 3-ofs.4 Intuition
1 Stinkweed Imp
1 Big Game Hunter
1 Arrogant Wurm
The second thought would be more differnt. Instead of using a intuition engine (which imo is a bit slow), how about something else? Im thinking Living Wish or perhaps Infernal Tutor (hellbent is easy with mongrels and togs, although its counterintuative to the control strategy)?
What im trying to say is that I think that there must be something better than intuition for this deck out there.
Thats all I can think of for now. Im pundering the deck when I have some free time, so ill let you know when I have some more interesting thoughts to share.
Oh, and btw:
I really want to the 3rd deed in there somewhere. Please.2 Pernicious Deed
- Mordenkain
This is debatable depending on how big my boobs feel in the morning.
Uh, just for reference, that was a transcription error. They are no longer in the deck at all, and were replaced with a Big Game Hunter and an Arrogant Wurm. Otherwise, I'd be playing 62 cards.
1) 2 Brain Gorgers
Im still not happy with these. Ive played burn with Browbeat and played some semi-serious G/R agro ***** with Book Burning and the "choose" effect of the opponent is really really bad. In all cases (unless your opponent is a tard, which is a battle you should win anyway) you will get the least wanted choice. Always. Playing a 4/2 for
I think Big Game Hunter is a suitable change from Gorgers, but still im not all that sure. Its inability to remove Meddling Mages, Bears, Gooses, Lackeys, etc. is not good. Also it can't remove important critters that arent made for attacking, like said Meddling Mage or creatures like Goblin Welder.
I think you should find a replacement for the gorgers. Really.
As far as smaller creatures are concerned, I think that the Big Game Hunter gives us more room to breathe--small non-attackers like Meddling Mage and company can all be dealt with with Ghastly Demise or Pernicious Deed, which no longer need to be held back for win conditions. Jitte too takes care of these. The slightly larger creatures that attack face some scary blockers that will eventually fly in for the win. I'm pretty sure that some kind of utility creature needs to be in that slot, and I think that, of these, Big Game Hunter is best since he helps to cover a much-needed weak area (removing black creatures).
Hi to everyone!
First of all, this being my first post here, I would like to briefly introduce myself. I'm an italian student, but currently living in the cold Scandinavian city of Stockholm; here I've found quite a fertile soil for Magic, and I'm currently enjoying many legacy games (well, except the ones played against flash of course).
I had played Threshold (UGr) for a long time, and with FS I was striken by Tarmogoyf and Tombstalker; I'm trying to find a deck where these two boys can be used together.
One build is B/G, while the other one resemble the BUG threshold that you're discussing now; for the moment I just wanted to say that I don't like too much the direction in which the deck is moving.
Apart from the inclusion of 1x creatures, that I don't like at all (but I guess it's just personal taste) I was trying to exploit the power of Tarmogoyf and Tombstalker more than some trick like intuition/genesis; then, some creatures like the mongrel or the wurm just tend to be less powerful compared to the Stalker, and by playing some more early disruption you can maximize the speed and the efficiency of the FS creature.
I'm not even sure of the Atog; at this point why not use some zombie infestation to be feed with the LftL engine, since this last card is really not so useful by itself?
Anyway, I would try a list that contains at least 3 Tombstalker, but no more than 12 threats; I really don't want to cut on the number of permission/disruption that black and blue have to offer. I will try to post a list when I have some more time; until then good luck to everyone trying to build a BUG deck!
Witness the man who raves at the wall
Making the shape of his questions to Heaven.
Whether the sun will fall in the evening
Will he remember the lesson of giving?
Set the controls for the heart of the sun..
[big]NOTE: Before I start, my last list had a significant error: there should only be one LftL, not three. [/big]
NOTE #2: Tarmogoyf is overpowered.
Just a reminder that my last post addressed this: they're gone, I just forgot to remove them from the list; it's since been edited.
At first, I was unconvinced. I've been testing your suggestion for the better part of a week now, however, and I'll confess that I'm sold: we won't get a gigantiferic 'Goyf on turn two, but he'll be big enough by the time he can swing. We're also no longer throwing away two more cards from the library, which can be a big deal in games that go long.2)
One half of me like this principle. 8 cards, essentially serving the same purpose, different sides of the same coin.
The other half of me are about to stab my own eyes out because of this. Only playing 2 Brainstorms is really not something I would do. Really. I understand the inclusion of them all:
Brainstorm: Sheer awesomeness.
Serum Visions: Good dig, better than brainstorm in this deck. Normally i wouldnt put Serum Visions up on Brainstorm level becuase of sorcery speed, but being a sorcery in this deck is good, becuase it feeds Goyf.
Mental Note: Instant draw with grave fill effect.
I think that with the intuition+loam engine, gettings cards in the yard is easy enough with note. If I were you I would cut the notes and play 4/4 storm/visions for increased card quality and better sorcery/instant ratio.
-3 Mental Note
+2 Brainstorm
+1 Serum Visions
+1 I don't remember what I added for this slot (I know, you want a third deed
It's an idea, although I'm having a hard time envisioning those. Living Wish has the added disadvantage of hitting the RFG pile immediately, and I can't really see running it as much of an advantage, since it won't really free up SB slots. Infernal Tutor is a good idea, but I find myself very reticent to dump my hand unless it's for the win. Playing a minimum of lands has also often turned out to be a key strategy (holding them back for discard-pump, of course), and so I've found myself with a fairly substantial hand most of the time. It's an idea perhaps worth pursuing, but I suspect that Intuition ultimately works out better (unfortunately, since it has a higher price tag--and the deck already isn't all that cheap).3)
This more a loose though/idea than a concern. First of all, I would like to increase the decks consistency, which means less reliance on silver bullets and more 4-ofs and 3-ofs.
The second thought would be more differnt. Instead of using a intuition engine (which imo is a bit slow), how about something else? Im thinking Living Wish or perhaps Infernal Tutor (hellbent is easy with mongrels and togs, although its counterintuative to the control strategy)?
What im trying to say is that I think that there must be something better than intuition for this deck out there.
Intuition is good because it puts key cards into your graveyard, setting you up for Wasteland/Loam lockdown, Sandbar/Loam draw, or creature shenanigans. While it'skind of crappy when you really need something in your hand NOW (like with a regular tutor), you can still shape your opponent's choice (myself, I usually use Jitte for this). Usually, it's basically a tutor that nets you three cards--in rare circumstances (like Leyline lockdown), however, it's much less effective. I haven't really found it too slow, since it shines in the longer games, where what it fetches becomes much more relevant. My early game tends to be shaped by Tarmogoyf beatdown.
OK: now for the updated (and 100% accurate--I double-checked) list:
1 Island
1 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Wasteland
2 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
2 Bayou
2 Lonely Sandbar
3 Windswept Heath
3 Polluted Delta
4 Intuition
4 Serum Visions
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
3 Daze
3 Ghastly Demise
3 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Pernicious Deed
1 Life from the Loam
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Wild Mongrel
2 Psychatog
1 Genesis
1 Wonder
1 Stinkweed Imp
1 Big Game Hunter
1 Arrogant Wurm
Sideboard:
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Stifle
3 Engineered Explosives
3 Naturalize
2 Tombstalker
OK, so two issues need to be resolved:
#1 - Deed. Is a third one necessary? I've been drawing them consistently, but that could just be the program, since I have yet to assemble it all IRL. I'm certainly sure that a third one won't hurt, but how to fit it in? Should it replace one card in the draw suite (including Intuition)? Should I run an EE in the main deck to make a pseudo-third?
#2 - Arrogant Wurm. Great card, and I think that it fits that slot's needs very well. Unfortunately, I haven't had much use for him yet--hardcasting him is often difficult because those games in which he's necessary (like against black-based Fish), mana has been in somewhat shorter supply than usual (normally, you'll flood big time if a game drags on). Anyway, I've also found it difficult to discard him into play--of course, that's just a function of the matchups in which I wanted him, but it's got me worried--he seems a bit like a last pick (certainly, Intuition usually has better stuff to grab), and yet I still think that he fills a necessary role in promoting graveyard independence. What do you guys (especially those who've tested the deck) think? Would basking Rootwalla be better? Muck Drub, of all things (I doubt it, since the cost is essentially the same--but the ability could be useful)? I dunno. I'll keep on going with him for now, but I'm open to suggestions. Perhaps the third Deed would be better here--I'm not sure about that, though. Perhaps.
I plan on posting the deck in the "open" forum in the (relatively) near future, when I've compiled detailed matchup analyses.
My original post on this deck (located here--there's also this thread in the "Open Discussion" forum) was a more direct transposition of Threshold from UGW to UGB. I had a few problems, however: the transition gains better aggro matchups (thanks to stuff like Deed, Engineered Plague, etc.), but it loses some significant tools--most notably, Meddling Mage (and the fact that Enforcer has protection from black isn't insignificant, either). I wasn't sure how to fix that void--keeping Werebear on top of Tarmogoyf is one option, I guess--certainly, it makes for a very aggressive deck. Also, the loss of Swords to Plowshares is very significant, since your best equivalents are Vendetta and Ghastly Demise (I guess that Jitte is probably even better, really). Lastly, you lose Worship--although that's not such a big deal. It's quite the challenge, certainly, and I wish you luck in your endeavour.
Have you tested Dark Confidant at all in this kind of deck? I am currently fiddling around with some Ugbw ******** build and Dark Confidant is nothing short of amazing in there (allthough I have Top which makes him even better) and could/should be here too... Bardo seems to have had some sucess with him too...
Not having tested this exact list but some derivation of it, my points may not be that valid, but just to give you some food for thought, you may think about:
-1 Intuition (I don't get it why you want 4 of this rather slowish card in a tempo deck)
-1 Big Game Hunter (You should have enough not so situational Removal allready)
-1 Arrogant Wurm (aside from Mongrel and Tog you don't seem to have enough discard outlets to make him cost 2G... and he's rather bad synergy with Confidant)
-1 Stinkweed Imp (the additional card draw from the Condidant should give you engough (buisness) spells to make the dredge rather irrelevant to obtain a significant amount of cards in your graveyard)
+4 Dark Confidant
Also I think that it would be rather nice to be able to fit in that 4th Daze (since it's not even dead lategame as it can always feed a Mongrel or Tog) and that 4th Ghastly Demise (or Vendetta) but I don't really know what to cut (maybe another Intuition and a Jitte?)... You could also try to fit in the Counterbalance/Sensei's Divinig Top Engine somewhere between main and side (maybe a Top main, 2 and 3 Balances Side?) to help your combo matchup...
Anyways, my points may not be that valid because they come form experience with an other (similar) deck but it could be some good to your deck too...
Keep up the work on the deck!
I did try him in earlier incarnations, but with MD Tombstalker, he was suicidal at best. Things haven't really changed, since I still run 6 5-cost spells MD, and a veritable host of 3-mana spells. I also have to admit that I found him rather too weak--he delayed the deck. I'd rather cast all of my other two-drops first. Confidant is at his best when you're in topdeck mode, it's true, but with dredge-based recursion, it's seldom necessary. Granted, dredge and Serum Visions/Brainstorm lesssen Confidant's impact--nevertheless, I found it unreliable at best.
An interesting idea would be a transformational sideboard approach that would use Confidant to replace much of the dredge-dependence, but I don't think that's a good idea, since it leaves a fairly huge weakness (in the sideboard) against combo.
I also toyed with Top/Balance briefly, but it quickly became apparent that I was mashing together too many ideas.
Don't worry, I haven't forgotten about this--I'm almost done typing a new post for the Open forum.
Unfortunately, I've had a few more ideas that mean that I sort of need to delay that post until the list is a little more final (so as to match forum criteria)--but they're ideas well worth discussing a little, I think. The first have to do with some significant changes to the sideboard:
New Sideboard?
Sideboard:
4 Stifle
3 Sandstorm
3 Elvish Lyrist
2 Pithing Needle
2 Tombstalker
1 Pernicious Deed
Stifle - It's pretty much impossible not to play this if you expect combo. =/
Sandstorm - Replaces Engineered Explosives. I was mostly using the Explosives to destroy goblins from EtW, but the Explosives often come online a little too slow to make the difference they need to make. Yes, they're versatile, but I already have Deed to sweep the board, and too often EE has become a replacement for targeted removal--in other words, not so great. So, I've replaced it with Sandstorm to increase the chances of beating EtW-based combo, and also because Sandstorm is much more effective than EE against Goblins (hell, at worst, it kills a first-turn Lackey). Besides, nobody expects it. ;)
Elvish Lyrist - Included to kill Leyline of the Void/Planar Void. I can still rely on Needle and FoW to get rid of a 'Belcher (And Jitte kills Jittes!)--besides which, Viridian Zealot won't hit an early 'Belcher. The second advantage of running a creature-based solution as opposed to Naturalize or Seal of Primordium (which beats Naturalize, since it pumps Tarmogoyf) is that I can recur it with Genesis--especially if it gets dredged away.
Pithing Needle - I've only got two in the sideboard because I only really need it to hit an early 'Belcher: FoW, Daze, Stifle, or Pernicious Deed can help to take care of the rest. Jitte also takes care of opposing Jittes.
Pernicious Deed - The third Deed! It had to come in somewhere.
My second set of considerations:
1.) Maindecking Tombstalker. I've seen so little Pithing Needle hate in testing that I'm not sure it's worth subbing out Psychatog. Indeed, Psychatog helps as a discard outlet. Consequently, wouldn't it be better just to up the pressure? If so, what to include it over? I think I'd like to move Big Game Hunter to the SB for at least one Tombstalker (two MD might be pushing it, since they've grave-hungry and StP turns that into MAJOR card disadvantage--plus, given my second point, I dunno how to fit in a second).
2.) Arrogant Wurm. It's not working out as well as I'd like. It's a cute move, but... too mana intensive. I'd like to try Gigapede in its stead. Other options: Grotesque Hybrid, Crashing Centaur (I think that the Gigapede is the best, since I can recur it and use it as a discard outlet).
The version I'd like to test before posting in the Open forum looks like this:
1 Island
1 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Wasteland
2 Lonely Sandbar
2 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
2 Bayou
3 Windswept Heath
3 Polluted Delta
4 Intuition
4 Serum Visions
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
3 Daze
3 Ghastly Demise
3 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Pernicious Deed
1 Life from the Loam
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Wild Mongrel
2 Psychatog
1 Genesis
1 Wonder
1 Stinkweed Imp
1 Tombstalker
1 Gigapede
Sideboard:
4 Stifle
3 Sandstorm
3 Viridian Zealot
2 Pithing Needle
1 Big Game Hunter
1 Tombstalker
1 Pernicious Deed
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