Well, seeing that normal Vial Goblins focuses on the long game and doesn't really try to abuse its crazy 1-drops, I decided to try and see how blue/red Goblins dropping Ringleader for FoW+12 other blue cards would come together. It's actually worked surprisingly well in random testing (beating 1-land Belcher, Faerie Stompy and Mono-R Vial Goblins among others, although I think some of playskill has influenced most of them) and I'm trying to actually make a real list out of it. Soo, here's where I'm at now:
// Lands
3 [ON] Bloodstained Mire
3 [ON] Wooded Foothills
4 [U] Volcanic Island
4 [MM] Rishadan Port
4 [TE] Wasteland
4 [MI] Mountain (1)
// Creatures
4 [P2] Goblin Matron
2 [ON] Goblin Piledriver
4 [US] Goblin Lackey
3 [LE] Gempalm Incinerator
3 [SC] Siege-Gang Commander
3 [SC] Goblin Warchief
// Spells
4 [NE] Daze
3 [AL] Force of Will
4 [5E] Brainstorm
4 [SC] Stifle
4 [DS] AEther Vial
What really jumped to me was how Goblin Warchief is (yea, I know this is all obvious to you, but I'm not that bright) almost useless. I mean sure, he can power out those early wins, and some midgame ones and make SGCs cheaper, but usually the opponent just can't do anything, or SGC comes and wrecks the house (or I just lay down enough Goblins). I'm thinking, here's a list to start working from:
// Lands
4 [ON] Bloodstained Mire
3 [ON] Wooded Foothills
4 [U] Volcanic Island
4 [MM] Rishadan Port
4 [TE] Wasteland
3 [MI] Mountain (1)
// Creatures
4 [P2] Goblin Matron
4 [ON] Goblin Piledriver
4 [US] Goblin Lackey
3 [LE] Gempalm Incinerator
4 [SC] Siege-Gang Commander
// Spells
4 [NE] Daze
3 [AL] Force of Will
4 [5E] Brainstorm
4 [SC] Stifle
4 [DS] AEther Vial
Now, I couldn't make it work with any less than 22 lands so I can't fit more FoWs, but this package looks rather compact. It still has Piledriver for damage and Matron and SGC for cardvantage. I was thinking, since the deck has cut its Ringleader-bonds, maybe there ought to be an attempt to use some non-Goblins like Mogg Catcher (I think Mogg Catcher would fit into the Vial-curve well and dropping out a bunch of SGCs is rather potent) or Clickslither, but I'll still consider all that. Anyway, this base has been working rather well, so something to work from. Anyone has any ideas besides the obvious 'this is crap'-line?
Oh, and obviously the SB would contain the 4th FoW, Pyrokinesis, some Tinkerers, Incinerators and few more random Goblins along with some blue/red business (Anarchy to deal with all the stupid enchantments? Patron to deal with all the stupid Plagues? Brains to make the deck good? What have you?)
Anyway, just in case you can't tell from the list, most of the deck's wins come through mana denial and just making Lackey hit, or chaining SGCs. Stifle+Rishadan Port+Wasteland (+Brainstorm) makes for a frightening mana denial base and Daze capitalizes on that, along with FoW which just happens to be a rather good card. But yea, fire away.
EDIT: And yes, I'm aware this's been tried in Vintage and that Time Walk and Ancestral aren't legal in Legacy, but I think the idea still hold some promise as long as I can put it together correctly.
I like the idea of Razorfin Hunter in here. Possibly in Conjunction with Sharpshooters.
Originally Posted by majikal
At first glance heavy reliance on volcanic islands may warrent the addition of an island or two to the mana base. Crucible + wasteland will wreck you. If the other goblin deck gets a better land drops then you you will lose. I think you need to work that situation out first before anyone believes this is better then regular goblins.
The Firebrothers
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i think Kiki-Jiki and Goblin Flectomancer are really good in a deck like this. They allow for a multitude of uncounterable trickery such as copying a matron, finding flecto and pitching it to FoW or vialing it in to misdirect something. Goblin Wizard also allows for some funky plays (and swords protection!)
The difference between Vintage and Legacy though, is that in vintage you can drop a lackey turn 1 and your almost guaranteed that it'll hit. Lackey rarely hits in legacy, and if it does hit, your not going to win unless you drop a seige gang or something - in vintage you can go all the way on the back of null rod, FoW, lackey and piledriver.
i guess its certain worth trying as combo seems to be on the rise and combo is what this deck seems to shine against.
Yea, but on the other hand, in Legacy you generally only need to deal with one threat early on so you can focus your free counters on making Lackey connect, unlike in Vintage, which is the basis of the whole idea in the first place.
I'll definitely consider Kiki-Jiki, he might actually be worth playing here as a 1-of, and maybe even Flectomancer since he's blue (although the coloured costs mean I'll never hardcast it), so it allows me to actually cut blue cards (although I don't know which ones I'd like to cut for it, since it isn't amazing). Mostly I just want to balance the blue vs. the Goblins and optimize the Goblin-base with the present room, as well as optimize the landcount.
Firebrothers: What deck worth caring about runs Crucible/Waste? I tried it, but 14 Mountains is the absolute minimum so I couldn't fit a basic Island there. But it has never been a problem thus far, especially with Stifle and Brainstorm (seriously, 22 lands in a deck with Stifle, Brainstorm and Vial is an awful lot).
Tacosnape: I dunno if it's that good an idea without Warchief or anything to grant haste with, nor any ways to benefit of pinging (like Curiosity). I'll still consider it though.
although I pretty much never recommend this for creature decks, what about standstill? You have 8 ways to cheat creatures into play instead of just 4 and it seems like the card advantage could be pretty nuts.
I used to play it, but it's still too sitiuational in an aggro-deck, especially when I have no manlands. That means I always need a threat and preferably a strong one to be in play. And frankly, if I have a Lackey that can connect, I don't really need Standstill to win. So, while awesome in theory, I found it lacking in practice. Replaced it with Stifles and ooh boy, is it awesome!
well seeing as you have turned this from a straight aggro deck into an aggro control deck, perhapes you could drop rishidan port (I know it looks aweful, but here me out)... rishidan port was meant to gain a serious tempo boost in the old deck, but with stifles + dazes you could still tempo rape several hands of several decks; I would suggest overall that you could go
-4 port
+ 3 mishra's factory
+ 1 island
and perhapes some of your mountains could turn into the type 2 dual... I think it is called steam vents.
and perhapes since you aren't running the 30 goblins in this build, you could drop the incinerator for something you will put on the field... or fire/ice
that is pretty good against the 'mirror', if you could call it that. It goes to the dome if you need to force through that last bit of damage, you could even draw cards while tapping something, there are a lot of good plays there... epecially with all of the pro red dudes ready to block out your gobies for eternity, you could just tap them out and swing for the win... just a thought though.
Another stupid idea by Tacosnape:
Thought about Serum Powder?
It'll get you that turn one Lackey that this deck's starved for. It'll also let you hardcast that horde of Siege-Gang Commanders one turn earlier than you would otherwise, acting much like a bad Warchief 5-8 in that regard.
I like the idea of splashing blue for cards like stifle out of the sb to improve the combo match up but i'm not sold on cutting staples like Warchief and ringleader out of the md to make way for daze and brainstorm. It looks like your trying to take the goblin shell and fit it into an agro-control deck and i'm not sure that was meant to happen.
I was hoping for someone to come with the idea of splashing blue in Goblins, and that sounds really interesting. However, IMO, it seems that this build need some more card advantage.
What is really impressive about the common Goblins deck, it's the ability to recover and turn the table really, really fast. After a Wrath, the guy thinks he's on the wat to the victory, but then you drop ringleader and you are on the game again.
Let's suppose you are on the late game and don't have any counters in your hand. Then, your opponent wraths your table. You don't have a ringleader to bring you back to life, just a brainstorm. By that time he drops a Exalted Angel, Masticore or something that bad. What do you do?
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@Eldariel - Have you considered Fire/Ice? It can make Goblin Lackey more likely to connect by either tapping or burning a creature in response to your attack phase. I would preferably tap the critter, so you can cantrip, maybe into a much needed SGC, then drop it after damage from the lackey resolves. It seems like a sweet fit in the deck's overall theme.
The basic problem with this list is that it's attempting to put aggro-control component's into a Goblins shell instead of attempting to put Goblin components into an aggro-control shell; reverse the premise, and I think it's going to be easier to construct the deck.
I imagine that in order for this to be even considered viable, it is going to have to splash Green for Tin-Street Hooligan and use Umezawa's Jitte as its trump against a "real" Goblins deck.
I can't even fathom how Landstill could be bad in this deck, Aether Vial, Goblin Lackey, Mogg Fanatic, Gempalm Incinerator, Sparksmith etc should be insane with it.
I imagine there are old threads from Goblin Sligh around, look at their curve and it should be the same curve and creatures this deck needs, tho' I'd cut a ton of lands with Aether Vial, he'll I'd go down to just 15 with it, screw LD.
In some admittedly limited testing with Eldariel, me piloting the Rg Vial Goblins build, him piloting Goblin Fish, the matchup was clearly in Goblin Fish's favor, surprisingly. Stifle screws up your attempts to use wasteland. Daze and force mess up the early curve and let Lackey hit, and frankly, once Lackey hits it's over.
While I didn't have the best draws, it was pretty apparent that if Goblin Fish messes with Vial Goblins early game enough to get Lackey through, the game's over already. Jitte might be a good sideboard option, but it doesn't seem to be necessary in game one considering the matchup appears to be Fish's favor.
At any rate, going below the current land number, even with Aether Vial, is suicide. There's a reason current Vial Goblins lists run as many lands as they do, this is a deck that needs to be able to function if Lackey doesn't connect, and running 15 lands practically ensures that A. If you can't establish a Lackey your game will be way too slow, B. If you get hit with LD you won't recover fast enough, and C. It puts undue pressure on Aether Vial to alleviate the mana concerns of the deck.
Even Threshold, with all of its cantrips and extremely low curve, runs 17 lands. This deck has 8 Cantrips (counting Incinerator) and Vial to help with a mana curve that stretches up to 5 at the top end for SCG. While these do help, you need actual lands to make it so that hardcasting SCG is still possible. Suggesting an entirely different decktype, which I assume is what you're doing Breathweapon, really should be done after actually testing the current list, which is actually surprisingly solid and resilient.
So we should all drop Goblins for Goblin Fish because it dominate the mirror and doesn't scoop to combo?
That statement seems way, way too good to be true.
I like it. I'm pretty sure the thresh matchup is going to get worse though, as you'll no longer have ringleaders to stock up your hand. That's the matchup I'd be testing if I was really interested in playing this, anyway.
The loss of Ringleader also hurts Landstill/Rifter/?control matchups.
Not scooping to combo=good. You could even run 4x chalice in the side to make things brutal.
BtW, for all you gobbo players out there, Chalice>most other combo hate if you know what you're doing. I have never lost a game to pillar playing combo, but I have lost a bit to chalice, as your ability to work around it is random. You simply can't play around chalice if your cards don't let you, but Pillar can be played around by a skilled combo player (that is, if you get a turn two to even cast the thing.)
Goblins actually has a Rifter matchup that is not 90-10?The loss of Ringleader also hurts Landstill/Rifter/?control matchups.
Furthermore, does it really matter? Who plays Rifter anyway, and you could side Ringleaders in for those Control matchups anyway.
The deck mostly tries to make up for the lack of Ringleaders with the 4 SGCs. It works nicely in the mirror, good luck winning when opponent drops two SGCs on consecutive turns. I'm not sure how good the mirror is (whatever 'testing' we did was only ~7 games or so), but it certainly isn't a blowout against us, which is already something to be glad about.
Also, while losing Ringleader does hurt control-MUs, gaining Stifle and Daze to fuck up their manabase even more, and Brainstorm to find Wastes/Ports, should have the opposite effect (oh yeah, then there's the whole 'Stifle your Deed' and 'Daze/FoW your Lightning Rift' thingy). But yea, I'm not saying the deck is somehow superior to traditional Vial Goblins presently. I haven't done enough testing to know yet, and I'm not sure if I'm running the optimal configuration. I'd really like Goblin Tinkerers there somewhere and maybe even a Sharpshooter.
I'm not sure how the Thresh-MU is gonna turn out yet. On the other hand, it looks horribly brutal on the play with stuff like 'turn 1 Lackey, Daze your whatever removal-spell/Mongoose/FoW, SGC you heart' (and yea, the SGC thing happens a lot when the deck plays 4), on the other hand, the deck really doesn't play as many lategame bombs as normal Vial Gobs, only 4 Matrons and SGCs as opposed to 4 Matrons, 4 Ringleaders and 2 SGCs.
The deck can't cut any lands as it stands, you absolutely need 14 coloured sources and the deck really runs off the 8 Waste/Port effects. Stifle in addition to that=hell for decks that play lands. But I'm really thinking if I should fit a single Sharpshooter into the main, it looks like it could be good here against EtW, Gobs mirror (it's still almost decent there thanks to Stifle being actually able to protect it), Survival and all that.
Ok... I have been really iterested in this deck as of late.
I recently constructed (with volcanics as proxies cuz my friend has them) the deck, I was going to run this:
lands// 20
4 wooded foothills
3 wasteland
3 rishidan port
4 volcanic island
3 mountain
3 steam vents
creatures// 18
1 kiki jiki, mirror breaker (acts as the fifth piledriver/siege gange/matron)
3 seige gange commander (brings out rediculous amounts of tokens with jiki, and is good on his own)
4 goblin lackey (pops out my dudes quick and below still)
4 goblin piledriver (major kill con of deck)
1 gempalm incinerator (you can tutor them and they only work in certain situations, might want more though)
1 goblin king (there is a lot of red in my meta + if I face other gobbies, he can be da bomb!!)
4 goblin matron (tutor)
spells// 23
4 Aether vial (uncounterable creatures that are instant speed + also plays around still)
4 standstill (we can play around it and most cannot + is an awesome draw card)
3 force of will (Occ counter)
4 daze (the dazes and fows are probably going to get switched around)
4 stifle (allows broken ground tactics with your dudes)
4 fire/ice (utility + it is either burn or a drwa spell)
I'm going to run this in my local tourney this up comming week, and I was wondering what I should use in the side board?
I was actually thinking something along the lines of:
4 pyrostatic pillar
4 REB
4 jitte
3 probably BEB (I might switch the blasts around)
could someone help me with the list... decks have a tendency to do well for me in playtesting but not in tournaments and vis versa.
any and all ideas would be appreciated!!
if you are runnign less then 24(19 -- 3 of whom are gemplams and another 4 in SGC) creatures in any deck, consider cutting vial
possible for your 4th FoW and then 3 threats( my first choice was standstill but not we are cutting 50% of the reason to run it) prob. fanatic, a tutror set for matron ( sharpshoot/king/kikijiki) possibly tin street/tinkerer + cut the mounitan/port for a tiaga(s) for tinstreet
and for TFA list it would be for 2 gemplans, the 4th force and your 21st land
with out vial, you probably cut port for some moxes as you cant cheat your curve and i think people will find themselves tapping the port for 1 colorless then for tapping down lands. i think 21 land with atleast 15 colored sources
7 fetches
4 tropicals
2 tiaga ( for tin-street)
1 mountain
4 wasteland
3 moxen, prob chrome. or +1 fetch, mountain and island
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