So this is my build of belcher, it lacks control aspects of goblin welder and focuses more on speed, i picked it up because i felt like playing it over iggy when i wanted something new at a tourney, a went 2-0 goblins, 2-0 friggorid, 2-1 solidarity, and i lost the match that should been an autowin, 1-2 angel stompy, shit draws, i got second, it goes turn two most the time, almost consistently, and pulls a turn one on good occasion. heres the list
lands//
1xBayou
1xTaiga
Creatures//
4xElvish Spirit Guide
4x Tinder Wall
4xSimian Spirit Guide
4xBirds of Paradise
Instants//
4xSeething Song
4xDark Ritual
4xCabal Ritual
4xSpoils of the Vault
2xPlunge into Darkness -2 plunge
Sorcery//
4xLand Grant
4xRite of Flame
4xInfernal Tutor
+2 Empty the Warrens
Artifacts//
4xGoblin Charbelcher
4xLion's Eye Diamond
4xLotus Petal
Side Board//
3xOxidize -3
4xXantid Swarm
4xDuress
4xRed Elemental Blast
+3 Shattering Spree
So, the sideboard is meant to deal with control and needles, thats all this deck has had any problems with, it just plain outspeeds anything else...any thoughts?
Last edited by JohnnyCage; 04-13-2007 at 02:59 AM.
Theres already a belcher thread with lists more developed than this. Your version isnt any different to warrent a new thread.
Congrats with your finish tho. Look into Chrome Mox since they make the spirit guides permanent sources of mana and Empty the Warrens to work around Force and Meddling Mage.
Now playing real formats.
Teah, this is quite similar to the Spirit Guide Belcher lists floating around these days. I did some testing with it and came to the determination that Empty the Warrens was an extremely solid alternate win condition, particularly because it lets you play around Pithing Needle, which a lot of decks pack in the main, and totally shit you down game 1.
You're probably also going to want mroe outs to Chalice of the Void in the board. Oxidize is great, but it doesn't answer a Chalice set to 1. Shattering Spree may be the better choice.
I strongly recommend testing ETW as an alternate win. I ran a 3/3 split in my build and it worked out quite nicely. On the hands where I was one mana short of a Belcher + activation, I could often get an 8+ token Warrens resolved on first turn instead, which is gg against a lot of decks in the format.
Overall, the maindeck looks good... I'd suggest trying the following changes to see how you like them:
-1 Belcher, -2 Plunge
+3 Empty the Warrens
i did, ive tested the hell out of this deck, i personally dont like the chrome mox as much b/c it nets a minus two card loss for permanent mana, this is focused on outspeeding everything, if they dont have force, its gg, sb in xantid swarms duress and red elemental blast just for anti force, the net -1 loss of cards in hand hurts this deck too much, i think this deck alone can warrent a thread, playtest it, you'll see the funOriginally Posted by bane_of_the_living
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Last edited by Zilla; 04-07-2007 at 07:29 AM.
ya i tryied that, its hot, ive consistently emptied the warrens for 10, thats nice, thanks to that, it does have more answers to needle, i like it
What about the Summoner's Pact from Future Sight?
0
Sorcery
Summoner's Pact is a green card.
Search your library for a green Creature Card and put it in your hand. At the beginning of your next upkeep, pay 2GG or you lose the game.
Couldn't this be used to find ESP or tinder Wall when needed?! I dunno, i'm not to familar with the deck
Its possibly usefull to turn G into RR with Tinder Wall. That gives you +2 to your storm and +1 to your mana, granted the storm part isnt important unless your casting ETW and then you need to pay the Future cost of the spell.
Now playing real formats.
Seems like far too big a risk. Its greatest asset is that it builds storm count by fetching a Tinder Wall, and yet the only time Storm count matters is when you're building up a large ETW, which absolutely won't be winning you the game the following turn. You won't be able to pay Pact's 2GG cost and you will lose.
When building towards a Belcher win it might add a bit of consistency (wlthough it only effectively nets you one mana), but it makes opposing disruption like Stifle, Force of Will, and even Daze far more effective against you. When you "fizzle" with this deck, it's still possible to regain moment and win after a few more turns. With Pact, it's do or die. I suspect the "die" will happen more often than the "do".
Belcher pwned the Quebec metagame over the weekend at the Montreal GPT!
4 people played the deck and two of them met in the finals. Here is the list that all 4 of them ran:
CRET Belcher
4 Desperate Ritual
4 Rite of Flame
4 Seething Song
4 Elvish Spirit guide
4 Simian spirit guide
4 Dark Ritual
4 Land Grant
4 Chrome Mox
4 Lotus Petal
4 Lions Eye Diamond
4 Wild Cantor
3 Tinder Wall
1 Bayou
1 Taiga
4 Goblin Charbelcher
4 Burning Wish
3 Empty the Warrens
Sideboard:
4 Shattering Spree
4 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Cave-In
1 Infernal Tutor
1 Duress
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Pyroclasm
1 Simplify
Remove Dark Ritual for Living Wish, Wild Cantor for 3 Goblin Welder, add the 4th Tinder Wall and change the Bayou to another Taiga and that's the list I've been playing for about a month.
I don't see the justification for Dark Ritual, the deck has more than enough mana and storm, the same case for Wild Cantor. Living Wish and Goblin Welder at least give the deck more outs against disruption and hate, and Living Wish for Minion of the Wastes is the third win condition no one is prepared for.
Cave-In, and that Pyroclasm card that has the same mechanic, are solid tech tho'.
I would have paid to see some one manage to Burning Wish->Inernal Tutor with LED on the stack for Goblin Charblecher, that's fucking balls right there. Mite as well add the Diminishing Returns to the SB at that rate, at least it's a justifiable come back from behind card.
so basically, you've designed for yourself a combo deck that scoops the second that you see either a discard spell, or even the slightest hint of a counterspell. This sounds terrific!!!
OMG why doesn't everyone play this so I can get first at my local tourney every week!!! that would be wonderful.......
the sideboard needs help, maybe if you took out all of the one shots then maybe you'll actually win a game against a control deck... but no promises... it also depends on if the deck has a competant pilot just like every other deck in the format.
I agree with you Freak Accident. I play B/U/W Fish and I have played against Belcher like 50 times and never lost once. It truely is the most fragile deck in the format. It is like the grass tha breaks against a hurricane. Or the infantille baby that I kick against the wall. It is that weak.
My sideboard runs 4x Xantid swarm, 4x Duress, 4x Red Elemental blast, if you have a good pilot they float an extra red, because control never counters the mana, only the belcher, then the red elemental blast. Thats also why warrens is there, as an alternate win. If the pilot is good, the deck will not auto lose to control. I played it in a tourney, with the list at the top of the post, and went 4-0 i beat solidarity, a food chain combo, THRESH, and then beat an iggy. The deck does not roll over to control and forces an opponent to aggressively mulligan for force, blue card. This gives card advantage and with any cards in from sideboard in hand it will do just fine.
I'm glad someone agrees with me, as a control player this is by far one of the easier of matchups, especially for blue based control... I boast at the fact that I have never lost to this deck... you should really consider runing protection mainboard, and if you are having success with the alternate wincon in ETW then you should quickly switch that into the main kill con... storm based combo decks are a lot less likely to die out to control like belcher is.
As for the win against thresh, that was a fluk.. trust me, unless he was asleep, there is no way that you could have won that MU.. In my build I run 3 main deck needles, 4 meddling mages, and 11 countermagic cards; all of which are adequate enough to defeat your precious belcher. And in my SB I run krosan grip, which you have no answers to, so yes you do loose without a doubt to threshold; don't boast about wins that you should not have gotten.
Now if you were playing with solidarity then that would be a different story.
And you cannot boast about winning against other combo decks, that simply means that you had better hands... and luck does not count for anything when it comes to skill or deck quality.
My sideboard runs 4x Xantid swarm, 4x Duress, 4x Red Elemental blast, if you have a good pilot they float an extra red, because control never counters the mana, only the belcher, then the red elemental blast. Thats also why warrens is there, as an alternate win. If the pilot is good, the deck will not auto lose to control. I played it in a tourney, with the list at the top of the post, and went 4-0 i beat solidarity, a food chain combo, THRESH, and then beat an iggy. The deck does not roll over to control and forces an opponent to aggressively mulligan for force, blue card. This gives card advantage and with any cards in from sideboard in hand it will do just fine.
The ETW is meant to be an alternate win, not a main one, the point is that game one your opponent will not know what you are playing if word of mouth has not spread and will not mulligan agressively for FOW. The ETW is there for control but is too slow and reliant on two turns later to win against other matchups. The point is belcher outspeeds most and uses alt kill as win vs control g1 and g2, g3, it uses sideboard plus win of choice.
Belcher on average gets a first turn win about 15% of the time, I tested it myself (as a control player I like to know exactly what I am up against in the current meta), belcher is a horrible combo deck compared to those that have already prooven themselves in the midst of battle; TES, Iggy, and Solidarity are good exaples of superior combo decks, you may be able to beat them; but they do not die out in the current meta like belcher does. This deck relies on the first two turns to win in an explosive and surprising fashion, without that surprise factor (like the player knows what is coming) the deck looses.
I have played many, many games against belcher & every other combo deck for that matter; guess which one give the least resistance? That's right, belcher. Unless you are willing to realize that this deck needs to change in order to win outside of flukes and surprise, you will eventually find yourself with players that have 'caught on', and your 4-0 record will flip and it will look like this 0-4.
Im not new to the game, before i started playing belcher i was playing iggy. The sideboard is all the deck needs to play control, and i dont think you tested the belcher posted at the top because i know, from experience of owning and playing it, im sure more times then you, that it combos 1st turn way more then 15%. I like your statistic, you know 80% of statistical facts are made up on the spot.
JohnnyCage, are you referring to outright kills or to combo-outs that either win or leave you with a good board position (more than 10 goblins or Belcher on the table with mana to use it next turn, that kind of thing)?
Because if it's the former, I haven't even been able to get the 15% he cited without taking disproportionate risks. If you include the latter, however, that percentage jumps from just over 10 to around 50 from my experience.
If you were talking about the single kill condition Belcher list, then I agree with your comment.so basically, you've designed for yourself a combo deck that scoops the second that you see either a discard spell, or even the slightest hint of a counterspell. This sounds terrific!!!
If you are talking about Cret Belcher you are sadly mistaken. Test the deck (this build), learn to play it well, then rant all you want. Or better, play your control deck against a competent player piloting Cret Belcher. It is definitly not an autowin for control (and obviously not an autowin for Belcher either). The guy who finished first, with Belcher, at GPT Montreal won match-ups against 2 x Deadguy (so discard is not an autolose), 1 x UGr-Thresh, 1x UW Fish (packing 4 Fow, 4 Daze, 4 Stifle, 3 Needles MD). Please don't come up with the ever original "his opponents were asleep/noobs", "he got lucky all day long", etc and try to understand why/how the deck works. Stating that you tested without giving any conclusions or explanations amounts to void. Your tests may also be biased by the fact that you (or your testing partner) may not be the best Belcher player(s) (for example, not knowing how to appropriatly mulligan will greatly affect the outcome of a game). I don't mean to be arrogant by saying this, it's just that I arrived at conclusions similar to yours by testing against Belcher and realized after playing against a competent Belcher player that my previous testing results (i.e. Belcher Scoops to control) were not that conclusive.
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