Since the splitting of the Gro/Threshold threads, there hasn't been a place to discuss what Mr.Nightmare and I have been working on. Four color Gro, we don't mean U/G/r/w. No, we mean U/G/b/x, the 4th color is different for the both of us. Some people prefer red some people prefer white, but none the less the deck's shell is what makes this version of Gro one of the greatest in my opinion.
General History
Back in the earlier days of gro, you would see cards such as Gush and Winter orb in the maindeck. The deck played almost completely differently also, trying to boost it's Quirion Dryad as fast as possible. Sometimes forgetting about it's controlish elements. This version of the deck slowly evolved into Geddon-Gro, This evolution of the deck wasn't around for very long but it was still around long enough to change the metagame. The deck cut WinterOrb and went for the fastest win possible, it's aim was to play as many men as possible then cast Armageddon. Giving your Werebears threshold. The deck slowly died after this because you could no longer play Gush for insane card advantage, and snyergy.
Then a deck called GAT came around Gro-a-Tog, this deck focused around controlish element's as well as it's beatdown elements. Late-game Psychatog, and early game Dryad simple enough? I think not. The deck lacked focus and tapped out to often leaving it's controlish elements useless.
Then back a few years ago "The Virginians" started working on an already existing Arch-type of "Super-Gro" The deck still aimed to make a giant Dryad and gain alot of card advantage. Cards like WinterOrb didn't seem so popular at this point. But cards like Nimble Mongoose had come into play around this time, but mostly seen in sideboards. Big Arse 2 came around and a different version of Gro won it. This version opted to cut Dryad for Meddling Mage, so that it had more control elements than aggro. Soon many versions opted to cut Quirion Dryad for other creatures such as Fledling Dragon and Mystic Enforcer. The deck soon developed into Not Quite Gro, which is our current DTB. Notice a few things about the evolution of Gro/Threshold not many things stay within the MD. The only thing that stayed in the deck was Werebear. The deck was always changing and is always changing and I believe the version In this thread is going to be the next evolution.
Decklists
13th Place at Kadilak's Dual Land Draft 2
Adam Barnello(Mr. Nightmare) UGbw Gro, 4-2
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Serum Visions
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Portent
2 Predict
3 Daze
2 Counterspell
4 Meddling Mage
4 Werebear
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Dark Confidant
1 Mystic Enforcer
3 Tundra
3 Tropical Island
3 Underground Sea
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
1 Island
SB:
2 Pithing Needle
2 Naturalize
2 Worship
2 Tividar's Crusade
2 Blue Elemental Blast
2 Hydroblast
1 Mystic Enforcer
2 Armageddon
16th Place at Kadilak's Dual Land Draft 2
Bryant Cook(Wastedlife) UGrb Gro, 4-2
4 Volcanic Island
3 Tropical Island
2 Underground Sea
3 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
2 Island
1 Fledgling Dragon
4 Werebear
4 Nimble Mongoose
3 Dark Confidant
4 Serum Visions
4 Brainstorm
4 Predict
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Magma Jet
2 Ghastly Demise
3 Counterspell
4 Force of Will
3 Daze
SB:
4 Pyroclasm
3 Pithing Needle
2 Withered Wretch
2 Phyrexian Furnace
2 Naturalize
2 Winter Orb
UPDATED LIST
8/23/06
"The Darkside of The Force"
4 Volcanic Island
3 Tropical Island
3 Flooded Strand
3 Underground Sea
3 Polluted Delta
1 Island
1 Fledgling Dragon
4 Werebear
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Dark Confidant
4 Predict
4 Serum Visions
4 Brainstorm
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Magma Jet
4 Force of Will
3 Daze
2 Counterspell
2 Ghastly Demise
How This Came To Be
Mr.Nightmare ran a 4c version at a tournament basically as a joke. Afterward's I realized how dumb Dark Confidant is in the deck with more scry elements. Which in my opinion black Gro/Threshold lacks. I can't speak upon Nightmares half on this so I'll give you my thoughts. I was testing with -3 Fire/ice + 3 Dark confidant in my basic U/G/r list, I wasn't happy the deck still lacked a way of killing fatties. So I considered Vendetta tested it, I gave it a meh, if I can't find something better. So I dug through the U/G/b Gro thread and noticed they were All playing Ghastly Demise, I tested it loved it's slot. The only downside was that it can't target Black creatures. But then again the format doesn't have many fat black men that my burn is out of range from. I debated what to cut I finally decided 2 Ghastly Demise over 1 Fledling Dragon and the last Fire/ice. I often think about cutting the final Fledling Dragon for a third Ghastly Demise then side against it because a fattie is important to threshold.
Deck Breakdown
ManaBase
The mana base is generally decided by the rest of the deck. Basics are nessesary, I'd myself recommend atleast 2 basic islands. Fetchlands are very useful but too many mess-up Predict. Although they are very good with Brainstorm. Many list run anywhere between 5-8. Lists vary in how many lands are played due to the amount of 1cc cantrips and such. The accepted amount of lands is anywhere between 16-19, most people run 17-18.
The Draw Engine
Brainstorm- This card has snyergy with much of the deck, infact it has snyergy with the format. Being 1.5's Ancestral Recall, with Fetchlands, Scry effect's, and Predict. You can often choose not to draw what you put back, which is a nice thing about the draw engine of Gro. This card dig's the lowest of all the canrip's in gro but it's too good not to consider/run.
Serum Visions This card digs 4 cards into your library while trying to find a land/answer which can be very benefical. It also set's up Predict, gives you better card selection, as well as a quick cantrip to fill your yard for Threshold.
Portent- I'm honestly not a fan of portent, but Mr. Nightmare likes it. The card dig's 5 cards deep into your library finding answers/threats/ or land. It's cantrip effect happens at the beginning of the next upkeep which is always you're oppenents unless you magically cast Time Walk.
Predict- The deck's best cantrip if you ask me. It almost always draws you 2 cards at INSTANT speed. Not to mention half the cards in the deck are built around it. With Brainstorm, Serum Visions, Portent, Magma jet why not run it? People opt to play Mental Note in this slot I highly reccomend against it, it does the same thing as Mental Note except without cute combat tricks of 4 card's it gives you 3 then 4 if you can cast the second card you draw. Cards in hand > cards in yard.
Dark Confidant- Since he is a creature he is with the creature section although he is apart of the draw engine.
The Counterspells
Force of Will- This card requires atleast 16 blue cards to run. It's a free counterspell which means you are free to tap out/cast creatures ect. I mean it's Force of Will a staple to our format.
Daze- Another free counterspell; this card hurts your tempo a tiny bit, but is worth the inclusion. Often giving you the edge you need to finish off a player or a second turn counterspell. Also deals with turn 1 Goblin Lackey.
Counterspell-This card requires UU, which can be annoying. But it's a hard counter, which means no card disadvantage/tempo lost which is worth the inclusion into the deck.
Creatures
Werebear- This is a 1G, Tap-> Add a Green for a 1/1. But with this cool ability called Threshold (7 or more cards in graveyard) He becomes a 1G for a 4/4, that hardly ever taps for a G. He's an undercosted fattie who happens to be bigger than the format.
Nimble Mongoose- An untargetable 3/3 for a G that needs Threshold, I guess... 'Nough said.
Meddling Mage- Target spell can't be played. With a body is fairly good last time I heard. It would be the reason to run white.
Fledgling Dragon/Mystic Enforcer- One gets the job done. Unlike other Threshold builds if you cast this guy who you have to be willing to protect him. Because there's not another you can mize later. A fattie is nessesary, because evasion often decides who will win/lose games alot of the time. Evasion with a 6/6 or 5/5 firebreather will often race the 2/1 shadow.
Dark Confidant- This man is crazy good, if he stays on the table the card advantage he causes will often leave you massacre'ing you're opponent. The great thing is he often saves games, he's not a winmore card. Creating card advantage off a permanent seems unnatural, a large portion of you're opponents will keep him alive, thinking he's more harm than help. With the large amount of Scry effects and Brainstorm/Portent this guy hardly ever deals you damage. Also with the deck's mana curve being so low be might as well be a beating Phrexian arena.
Removal
Swords to Plowshares- Best creature removal card in the game.
Lightning Bolt- Deals 3 damage for a R at instant speed. Can be thrown at the dome. Makes a quicker clock on you're opponent when assuming the aggro role.
Ghastly Demise- Blacks Swords to Plowshares minus the life gain. Only problem with this card is that it says "non-black", But when backed with Lightning bolt and Magma jet, possibly swords. It's a powerhouse.
Magma Jet- 2 damage is a meh, for 1R. But it's "Scry" effect is why it's very worthy of it's conclusion over fire/ice. It's another set-up card with predict which is huge, while killing a man. Like Lightning Bolt it goes to the dome when assuming the aggro role.
The Sideboard
Pyroclasm- Very good against goblins, 1R Wrath of God target opponent. It reads against them, this would be the main reason to play red. It's also very good against the randomness that legacy has, a very versatile card.
Tividar's Crusade- Good against goblins. Not versatile at all.
Pithing Needle- Great against the format, hits evertything from equipment, graveyard hate cards, Survival, Vial, and Lands of all sorts.
Phyrexian Furnace- My choice of graveyard hate, keeps threshold down to size while being good against Survival variants.
Winter Orb/Armageddon- Keeping other control decks down on land while you smash them, they can also be boarded in against solidarity for dead cards.
Worship- A lock with Nimble Mongoose out. Stops alot of aggro decks cold.
Naturalize- Need I say more?
Blue Elemental Blast/Hydroblast- Deals with Goblin Lackey, also deals with randomness, another versatile card.
Mystic Enforcer- Not very sure on this slot in the SB, but I can't blame him for wanting the second fattie.
Withered Wretch- Retardedly good graveyard hate, it's a re-useable Tormod's crypt.
Match-ups
I will be speaking in terms of generalizations because the differance between builds and deck differences.
Goblins- Very favorable. The key to winning this match-up is keeping board dominance. Making sure that lackey doesn't hit and ringleader doesn't go off. Your creatures are bigger knowing when to swing, when to stay back can make all the differance. If you can deal with warchief, he becomes rather annoying after awhile. After SB, your match-up gets about 10x better with Pyroclasm and Tividar's Crusade. After this if you open Pyroclasm/Crusade with lands, you have to decide how big you're balls are. Letting lackey hit can be gamebreaking if you're just going to wrath them. I often let lackey hit me since 1R is alot easyier to cast than 1ww.
Solidarity-Favorable. The key to this match-up is putting a clock on them. Then back you're clock up by saving up counterspells. Let Tide resolve depending on the situation and hand. Then use your counterspells. Repeat game 2.
DeadGuy/Red Death-About even, maybe in our favor. Nimble Mongoose is huge in this match-up. It's hard describing how to play this match-up but try and be the control player. Keep dominace while playing threats, which makes them waste answers. Sb gets better with pithing needle.
Rifter- About even. Don't let humilty hit and play one man at a time. Use your counterspells very carefully not everything they cast is game breaking remember that. Outdrawing them is also a very good idea, because it leads to you having more creatures and counters than they have removal. Sb in pithing needle, naturalize, and I would cut 2x Magma jet for 2 Pyroclasm.
Last edited by Bryant Cook; 08-23-2006 at 01:01 PM.
I suppose if we're going to discuss it, I can throw my side of things into the ring.
Originally, I was looking at different options to run with Gro, because (and I'll be completely honest here) I sent my foil Predicts out in the mail to get signed. I ran Mental Note again for a few days, and hated it. I know a lot of people love how fast it reaches Threshold, but it does nothing for you in terms of library manipulation and card selection. Too often I've seen it dump cards into the yard that later become a unavailable when you want them. My list with Predict ran a full suite of 12 cantrips aside from Predict, including Portent. Because of all this manipulation, I realized I could virtually always know the top card of my library.
Counterbalance was spoiled. This immediately got me thinking. I was ready to find a place for the card in this deck, but soon decided I wanted SDT, and with it, Dark Confidant. Turns out Top sucks in a deck like Gro where every mana you have is a precious commodity, and you really can't afford to use it in response to every spell your opponent plays. The library manipulation did, however suit the needs for Bob quite well. I knew there was potential here, as one of our meta's Gro players, Brushwagg, is an outspoken proponent of the black splash in Gro. I tried him out, straight up replacing Predict with him. It was a machine. I outdrew evryone in the mirror, and Bob quickly became the deck's hero. I found with the additional draw, it wasn't necessary for me to have Thresh on turn 3, since I had a much easier time controlling the game until I did reach thresh. I wanted a little more assurance, so I went to a 2/2 split on Portent and Predict for the D4D. Running 4 colors ended up leaving a big target on my manabase, but I guessed I wouldn't see many Wastelands on the opposing side, and I guessed correct. In a meta with more hate for nonbasics, leave the 4th color at home.
I'm actually fairly unhappy with the way my build turned out, particularly the sideboard, I didn't put a whole lot of thought into it. Tividar's Crusade was a mistake, and should have been Engineered Plague. I would consider cutting Predict for the additional removal of 2x Ghastly Demise, although that seems debateable, since as of now you have the ability to use USea as a Lotus Petal when necessary without issue. I want to cut one land from the manabase, as well, since I found myself flooded on more than one occasion throughout the day. The Blue Blasts and Worship ended up being fairly weak for me throughout the day as well, which I attribute to me not seeing a single Goblin on the other side all day. Bryant forgot to mention it, but I ran Trygon Predator as a 2 of in the board as well, and it was unimpressive at best. Rebuilding the deck from the ground up, here's what I see as the better build for an open meta:
Witch-Maw Threshold
As suggested by Adam Barnello(Mr. Nightmare)
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Serum Visions
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Portent
2 Ghastly Demise
2 Pithing Needle
3 Daze
2 Counterspell
3 Meddling Mage
4 Werebear
4 Nimble Mongoose
3 Dark Confidant
1 Mystic Enforcer
3 Tundra
3 Tropical Island
3 Underground Sea
3 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
1 Island
SB:
1 Pithing Needle
2 Naturalize
2 Engineered Plague
2 Blue Elemental Blast
2 Hydroblast
1 Mystic Enforcer
3 Armageddon
2 Tormod's Crypt
After August 20th, Counterbalance could be re-examined as a potential replacement for Counterspell in the deck. I also believe that Jotun Grunt should become a staple in the sideboard for the mirror match as well as other yard intensive matchups such as IGG, Sal-game and Survival.
Last edited by Nightmare; 08-17-2006 at 11:04 AM.
Damnit, I came up with this like 2 months ago but you guys beat mne to the punch.
I like the lists a lot.
I would also like to mention this is the reason why this deck will have a strong Late-Game. I will strongly support the evolution to this deck, as I believe Confidant is the
ICBE - We're totally the coolest Anti-Thesis ever.
"The Citrus-God just had a Citrus-Supernova... in your mouth."
Find out on the next exciting installment of ANTI-AMERICAN4621 RADIO THEATER.Originally Posted by Anti~American4621
The real truth is they hated losing to me. LOL!!!! ;) It took them long enough to really see why I like the Black splash so much, lots and lots of card drawing.
I too have been looking at the 4th color, but I'm not sold on it. I've put a few list together and it almost always comes down too me adding Magma Jet or Bolt to Black Gro. I really can't stand Predict, so many times it's dead. That's pretty much why I run Night's Whisper with Mental Note.
@Mr. Nightmare:Your list is looking really scary now. Altered or whatevertheyarecallingthemselvesthisweek, need to get the gaming area back up so I can see this thing in action.
Quote Scrumdogg @ Amrod's:
"Didn't you know that Mike Glow invented this format?? We are all just renting it."
The EPIC Syndicate - Grindermen
Team Disquailified Poster Duey Cheatem & Howe.
If you noticed, I savagely stole the name from you. I'm aware this isn't the first list ever.
Any thought to running Vindicate in the version that splashes white? At the very least it's a more versitile Disenchant in the board.
Also, I always thought Night's Whisper was the shit in black gro. Any reason why you're not running it?
My list currently runs 17 land, and very, very rarely can afford to use 3 mana of the 2 off-colors, particularly for removal. I have not personally tested it, but I'm not really sold on the idea.
Because with Confidant, Portent is better. You only have room for 12 cantrips, really, and although Whisper is +1 card, that's all it is. I really require a bit more from the draw spells, which is why I've opted for additional manipulation over raw drawing power.Also, I always thought Night's Whisper was the shit in black gro. Any reason why you're not running it?
So you guys are using confidants, which is real cool if he stays out. He also makes any spot creature removal they have useful, regardless of what it is as opposed to:
Nimble Mongoose: Spot removal just doesn't work.
Werebear: StP and all the black spot removal works except Darkblast, -1/-1 etc. (once threshold is attainted), but it takes 2 pieces of burn or a blocker/attacker and a burn spell to take him down once threshold is attainted.
Fledgling Dragon:StP and all the black spot removal works except Darkblast, -1/-1 etc. (once threshold is attainted), but it takes 2 pieces of burn or a blocker/attacker and a burn spell to take him down once threshold is attainted.
Is he really worth it?
Yes. See every other deck that has Confidant in it for reasons why. I'm not going to get into a long discussion here about virtual/actual card advantage. Your other creatures are good at swinging. If they waste removal on Bob, they don't use it on Werebear.
I find alot of people fear Bob, and they should. He's a "permacantrip". Bob is singlehandly the reason I won some games that I shouldn't have, just beacuse he got me the extra cards.
So is Bob worth it?? HELL YA!! Extra cards >>>>>>>>>>> then a little life loss. I do find though more and more people removing Bob from play before he becomes a problem. When I first started playing him most people left him alone thinking I was going to kill myself and got beat down.
@Night's Whisper:I really do like this card over Predict. It's one of the reasons, that when I write down a 4 color list it looks like I just added Magma Jet to Black Gro.
Quote Scrumdogg @ Amrod's:
"Didn't you know that Mike Glow invented this format?? We are all just renting it."
The EPIC Syndicate - Grindermen
Team Disquailified Poster Duey Cheatem & Howe.
That seems to be the only thing they wanna S2P instead of a Bear. And against Combo, you will never run of out of fuel.
ICBE - We're totally the coolest Anti-Thesis ever.
"The Citrus-God just had a Citrus-Supernova... in your mouth."
Is there a reason people in Syracuse run 61 card decks?
We were joking when we said that was Anti-Solidarity tech.
Is there a reason not to? It allows you to fit that extra card you don't want to cut anything for. It does't hurt anything and it bothers people. Why not? Last time I checked Gro beat Solidarity unless you're name is Michael Herbig.
61 card decks were discussed here
It only bothers people because it is a mistake. To suggest decklists with an obvious mistake in them is silly as generally the first response is drop down to 60 cards and make your deck better. Just because you don't want to cut a card or don't know what card to cut doesn't mean you should in fact not make that cut.
Think of your deck as your dog. That 61st card is a turd that is caught in the dog's fur. It doesn't truly hurt the dog but it certainly makes it less attractive. Be a responsible owner and remove the turd before your dog smears it all over the carpet or worse, eats it out of its fur and then vomits it back up.
SO, in short, decks with more than 60 cards are dogs vomiting up their feces.
just wondering, are you gonna be brainstorming on your upkeep to keep bob from topping a force or does the lava axe to the dome not matter?
cause I've had people tell me I'm a tard for having force and bob in the same deck
The average casting cost of cards in the deck is about 1.267, which is plenty low enough to play Bob. The fact that Force (or an Enforcer) will come up every once in a while is balanced out by how cheap everything else in the deck is.
Of course, using the manipulation spells to keep Bob's pain to a minimum is usually a good idea, at least against opponents that are likely to put pressure on your life total. However, with such a low average cc, Bob would be perfectly fine in this deck even if there were no deck stacking effects.
The objectively "worst" card in my build is the 4th Meddling Mage. I didn't realize my list was back up to 61, I thought I had cut the last card. List updated accordingly.
@ Lanfeng - There are 11 spells in the deck that read "Set up your next 2 draws in the order you want them." If you see a Force inside that, put it on the bottom so Confidant doesn't smash you.
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