Yeah, Team Nijmegen is absolutely pr0n and everything, right...
Well, you admit yourself that you looked aroung and saw the lists with Enlightened Tutor (and Clemens was the first to play Tutor in the deck, owning the monthly Hassloch event with it).
Thus it is quite outrageous not to give credits. However, you are right about the swarm-aggro problem. But we already have 3 possible solutions:
Engineered Explosives
Dueling Grounds
Rhox War Monk
We tested those cards and Rhox War Monk turned out to be quite decent, having Brushhopper stats and Lifelink which make him very potent as a blocker and as a attacker as his lifelink ability improves the odds to win the damage race before the opponent.
The Red Splash for Pyroclasm seems to be out.dated for me, though Stefan (spiritofthewretch) hyped the red splash again and again, but not because of Pyroclasm, but because of REBs and Price of Progress.
Pyroclasm is not relevant at the moment as Goblins has somehow lost it's status as DTB and is not played frequently anymore.
I still think that UGw does not need a splash which makes the manabase inconsistent (the fetchland-constellation sucks).
The solid manabase is one of UGw's main strenght, altogether with the best removal.
Team SPOD
<Der_imaginäre_Freund> props:
Adan for being the NQG God (drawer)
Would REB's be enough v. Merfolk, or would that warrant a pyroclasm or two?
If you splash red, you really should play Pyroclasm. Massremoval is just something this deck is lacking. If your Metagoyf doesn't differ completly from ours you will be pleased to have them.
Sneaky Pirates of Doom - Not really a Legacy Team anymore.
Well. True. You got me right there. I forgot about your list. You list is still strange, but you are right, though.Originally Posted by Shugyosha
Team SPOD
<Der_imaginäre_Freund> props:
Adan for being the NQG God (drawer)
This is the internet, remember?Yes indeed!
Also, two individuals reaching a similar conclusion does in no way imply one's knowledge of the other's work.
Plus, don't be offended by anything Adan says - he's horribly conservative and will not say that you're correct even if he knows that you are.
I tried to keep the following as on-topic as possible, however, I have to get onto a slight tangent here though:
Yes, we did play Enlightened Tutor for some time.
...and have again stopped to do so again. That's called testing, I think. Or development.
Additionally, we may have originally dismissed some cards and have come back on our statement later on, however, this is most of the time due to other developments of the archetype having taken place in the meantime. You might have played a card at a time, and we might have dismissed it at that time. It's likely that, at this time, our dismissal was in full accordance with our best knowledge (i.e. we thought the card sucked at the time) but that, over time, other changes have been made to the deck making an otherwise 'bad' card playable.
I originally included Enlightened Tutor in order to be able to make better use of Back to Basics* (which was included around 3 months after you mentioning Enlightened Tutor). As Back to Basics is somewhat narrow, you don't want to play an excessive amount of it in the maindeck, however, at the time, you did not want to give up on the power it added to the deck. Enlightened Tutor fixed this problem by allowing you to minimize the number of Back to Basics you have to play in the main.
However, as the metagame has become faster, and as people have finally learned the lesson that good manabases are good (seriously, Legacy folks are slow to learn... it took them years of Goblin-domination, various Blood Moon and Back to Basics decks as well as the more recent Stifle hype in order to understand this!), we have cut Back to Basics again from the maindeck... and with it went Enlightened Tutor: I still don't think that NQG can afford the card disadvantage it brings to the deck if you don't have something extremely powerful but narrow (i.e. of which you don't want to play many copies to preserve your flexibility, just like Back to Basics) to tutor up. Spending two cards on a Pithing Needle, Hoofprints of the Stag or Engineered Explosives is just not worth it. Counterbalance can occasionally be worth it, however, you still really don't want to go into a counter/resource-war one card down, especially if you have absolutely no (real) way to recuperate from said card disadvantage.
Now you could say that Enlightened Tutor allows you to save space in your sideboard, however, in the matchups where you want access to your tutor-targets (e.g. Back to Basics against Control), you also want to maximize on the hard copies of said card: absolutely don't want to loose your potential to hose the opponent to a single counter/removal.
*: Team SPOD must have ripped that tech too, as it was A. Kimpel playing it to some first good finishes! Same for Rhox War Monk who was spoiled by you on your blog prior to our top8 with it!
Just to set the record straight, I'll have to mention that Back to Basics was something Lazo 'Valdez' Vujinovic and I discussed and tested prior to Kimpel's finishes (which were inspired by this creative co-op, as far as I know). As far as the Rhox is concerned, Marius Laber (a member of our team) played Rhox War Monk in his last self-built pile (and jeesh, that guy hasn't played in ages - his build must have originated around the end of last year [i.e. Oct.-Nov.]), and was impressed by it, which, along, once again, a change in the metagame, was the original inspiration for my adoption of it.
This is a prime example for what I meant earlier: your metagame has gone through a development, so has ours. We both searched solutions to said development and found the same conclusion. Did you know of Marius's pile of 2-2-1? I doubt it.
Jotun Grunt maindeck was also no more than a test - he turned out to be nothing but a solid board-in - he's terrific against Aggro Loam - however, he's just too slow in other matchups (it takes him 2+ turns to shrink Tarmogoyf which is necessary in order for him to be of any board presence) and too terrible in the earlygame (which is already lacking) to be worth the trouble of maindecking him.
Hence, again, we couldn't have ripped your tech (which, in fact, should be attributed to Linus Neitzke, if to any German), because we, first of all, didn't adopt it, and secondly, adopted earlier due to metagame considerations (2006! event, 2007 event, plenty of 2008 events already mentioned - and it's not like other people didn't play Jotun Grunt in the sideboard all the time).
'Nough attempts to not get your E-Peen bitten off.
I concur. I started testing this some time ago, mainly in order to attempt to make one of my last derivatives less clunky (Krosan Grip's instant speed is scarily relevant/better than Oblivion Ring's versatility if your build has a higher curve than your current Landstill list) and liked it, especially since it also frees up space in the sideboard (which you are kind of craving for after cutting the Pithing Needles, Back to Basics and Jotun Grunts [in any combination] from the maindeck). I don't know if I fully like it yet, however, it is something to look into, especially since Counterbalance sees more and more play (at least in S.W. Germany, you can see a crystal-clear trend toward a Counterbalance-dominated metagame).
Team SPOD - ...land of the brave...
Im playing 2 oblivion ring and 1 krosan grip as MD "instant" answers to CB (mainly). I dont know if the 2/1 split is best. Oring being a "mini" vindicate is probably what is them in the MD.
It is one of the cards i like most. Two might be better, but i still fear drawing too many of them. In certain matchups, they can be dead cards. Oring is never dead, except against combo. I also like the split between oring and krosan grip. Sometimes, you got a basic land (forest or plain) and opponent plays a bloodmoon. You can still survive :)
my current list
Lands 18
3 island
1 plain
1 forest
8 fetchland
3 tropical island
2 tundra
creature 11
3 nimble mongoose
4 tarmogoyf
2 knight of the reliquary
2 trygon predator
removal 7
4 stp
2 oblivion ring
1 krosan grip
draw 11
4 brainstorm
4 ponder
3 sensei's divining top
counter 13
4 force of will
4 daze
1 counterspell
4 counterbalance
My list is permanent heavy (38), which is why i only have 3 nimble mongoose and no mystic (im missing them, sometimes.)
Robert
Backstabber...
I have to mention something about Jotun Grunt as well. I actually agreed with Clemens to run 1 or 2 Jotun Grunts in addition to the usual creature base as this was something I still had in mind from pre-Counterbalance ages.
You might find it funny, but there was indeed a period of time where Counterbalance has not reached Threshold players yet.
Instead, the more aggressive UGw variants (i.e. the variants running Mental Notes) included Jotun Grunt as a proxy for the 5th Werebear (I guess it was Tim Kahlmeyer which supported that idea. He's retired I believe.). This concept worked out fine, thus I thought it's not bad, neglecting the fact that we are running Goyf and Counterbalance which make us extensively independant from the need to reach Threshold and at the same time make it hard for us to reach Threshold since the amount of permanents that won't land in our graveyard has increased dramatically.
The only logical consequence is therefore to dismiss all the cards that seem out-dated and try new things such as Rhox War Monk.
I still believe that Clemens played Rhox War Monk because every Frenchmen are playing Rhox War Monk (seriously, every Frenchmen at Extended PTQ Kruft were playing that guy).
So actually we did not stole you Jotun Grunt idea. It's like very old.
And if someone should get credits for maindeck Grunts, it should be Linus Neitzke. This is also the point where I have to admit that his list isn't that random as I always thought. During the testing with proto-type list which looked similar to his list (maybe a difference of 7 cards or something) I was convinced that it can work out very well.
Team SPOD
<Der_imaginäre_Freund> props:
Adan for being the NQG God (drawer)
@ Adan. Instead of flaming other teams without having further information about them and flaming other decks without having them tested thorough, it's probably better to start having "better" arguments when you dislike a new card/more cards of one kind.
Instead of argueing about who is the inventor of the deck, shall we just continue discussing the deck? It just seems unnecessary to me.
I'm still not sure why:
4 Flooded Strand
2 Windswept Heath
1 Wooded Foothills
3 Tropical Island
2 Tundra
2 Volcanic Island
2 Island
1 Forest
1 Plains
Although it has like a weird fetchbase, it still plays 4 basic's. Enough for playing B2B's. I know that the fetch's are weird. However you do need the Wooded Foothills to fetch to the Volcanic Island and forest and you do need Windswept Heath to go to Tundra and plains (and forest).
Playing 3 Windswept heath might be better looking at the list the first time, however the plains is not necessary for creatures if a blood moon or B2B its the table (Mystic Enforcer is pretty hard to get). So to conclude: I think this manabase can't be better :D. Or do you have tips?
I think that Rhox War Monk is not enough against all the tribal decks, since its only 1 creature that cannot stop more creatures. Pyroclasm is a very strong card, splashing red for Pyroblast's only would not be a great idea (I agree on that). Splashing for both cards is pretty strong for a deck that has a lot of bad matchup's (50/50's).
Team Nijmegen
Robbert Slavenburg
DCI: 2069307189
@SPOD: Thanks for your lenghty and very mature replies. I was actually referring to Linus' Lists with my remarks about Jotun Grunt. There was some discussion back in the thread and I forgot to link it. As you already mentioned (DIF) I was offended by the way of Adans post because he accused a poster to steal "your teams" idea. Now there is not really your or my idea that can be stolen. Thats the reason to discuss here to share ideas. Many people posted lists similar to mine a while ago (MB Threads, etc.) and I tried to discuss with them not accuse them of stealing something. I also not accuse you of stealing BtB or War Monk Tech from somebody (I know Lazo and Kimpel btw). As you said (DIF) we both tested and found solutions like War Monk for example. I also played Grunt in white Thresh before CB (read it somewhere) and found it terrible. Linus was the first one to make it really work in his maindeck I think.
Whether we read it somewhere or came up independently doesn't matter, as long as nobody steps over the line and tries to boast his deckconstruction skills like mad. I hated O. Ring for example but gave it another try after you played it again and again. Now I'm among the staunch defenders of this card but I never said that its my tech.
I felt (my personal view) Adan stepped over this line and that was the point of the whole thing. He responded to my post in a more mature way than I (honestly) expected from him and well, thanks for that.
And to stay on topic ;-)
My problems with Threshold at the moment (whether Tempo or Balanced) is that everybody seems to be well prepared for your few creatures with 7-8 removal and occasionally for your Balance (via curve or Vindicate). That people keep trying to kill of my balance lock is Ok, I can deal with it but it recently became a pain to play with ~10 creatures against removalheavy decks and creatures that trump your Geese on a reliable basis.
I have figured out two routes: More creatures with staying power or play more removal too. Aggro or Control shift basically.
The control shift is quite obvious with Path to Exile now playable but I still can't figure out the right creature base for an aggro shift. Has anyone tested Dryads in the Geese slots? They would solve some problems with the current creature base has but they are damn fragile at first:
4 Goyf
3 Grunt
3 Dryad
3 Predator
At least this base doesn't really care about having a permanent heavy deck. But it opens up for some serious E. Explosive desasters...
Knight hasn't been bad for me too but is more or less finisher material as people stated with potential to abuse some land goodies. I found a 1 Waste/1 Crucible/1 E. Tutor package rather devastating against control decks or in long games.
1 A. Ruins/1 EE/1 E. Tutor was another nice package but you basically have to cut Balance for it to really abuse it which leads to very strange deck lists.
TS Crew
I... Well, I will simply refer to the Top8s of Team SPOD and try to debilitate that "You have not tested the deck thoroughly".
We have played that kind of build for a period of time and UGw's main advantage IS the solid manabase. There have been several attempts to build a 4-colored Manabase which does not suck, but there is no constellation of fetchlands which seems to make sense.
The most solid multicolored manabase so far was the 5color Manabase of 5color Threshold. The drawback, however, was the fact that you will scoop to Back to Basics and Blood Moon as soon as they resolve.
Another point why I dislike the manabase is that you impair it with unnecessary duals for which you have absolutely no need for preboard. In exchange, impotant fetchlands were cut which should ensure the persistence of your manabase together with the basiclands etc.
Additionally, it requires you to play 18 lands. For a regular build without a mass of CC3 spells, 17 are enough as the manabase is maintained by the cantrips as well.
Our manabase looks as follows:
4 Flooded Strand
4 Windswept Heath
2 Tropical Island
2 Tundra
2 Island
1 Forest
1 Plains
-> 16 Lands. This was before Rhox War Monk and Trygon got included. The new one has got +1 Island.
We have:
4 Fetches for a Island (+2 additional Islands)
8 Fetches for the Plains
4 Fetches for the Forest
All the fetches can Fetch any dual you want.
Lets assume you cut 1 Tropical for a Wooded Foothills, you will have:4 Flooded Strand
2 Windswept Heath
1 Wooded Foothills
3 Tropical Island
2 Tundra
2 Volcanic Island
2 Island
1 Forest
1 Plains
4 Fetches for a Island (+1 additional Island)
4 Fetches for the Forest.
6 Fetches for the Plains.
The difference is: All of the fetchlands can fetch Tropical Island BUT
Windswept Heath can't fetch Volcanic Island
Wooded Foothills can't fetch Tundra
So, dependant on you draw, some fetchlands may end up being dead or they simply can't fullfill the desired effect for the current gamestate.
Another thing to consider is the fact that a lot of Tribal decks (Elves, Merfolk and the likes) can efford to play Wastelands which can easily disrupt your manabase.
And I actually don't want such a loss of consistency especially against matchups liek tribal decks in which you need to have a solid manabase to play all your business spells and solutions consequently.
Cut Red.So to conclude: I think this manabase can't be better :D. Or do you have tips?
Rhox War Monk does enough when played in addition to Tarmogoyf and the other beatsticks, especially because he has got Lifelink.I think that Rhox War Monk is not enough against all the tribal decks, since its only 1 creature that cannot stop more creatures. Pyroclasm is a very strong card, splashing red for Pyroblast's only would not be a great idea (I agree on that). Splashing for both cards is pretty strong for a deck that has a lot of bad matchup's (50/50's).
The argument of Splashing Red Elemental Blast and Pyroclasm is also a thing I can't chum up with. You will NEVER board in both REB and Clasm against one and the same deck.
Red Elemental Blast is supposed to help against the mirrormatch and Landstill for example. But against the mirrormatch we already have better alternatives like flexible removal which is hard to reach for Counterbalance (i.e. Krosan Grip and Oblivion Ring as well as Trygon Predator). All of them have in common that they handle Counterbalance quite efficiently which is also the reason why we board in REB at all (aside from the counterwars).
The counterwars lose relevance since we have possibilities to handle Counterbalance without losing threat density!
Against Landstill, Gaddock Teeg as proven himself as a mighty tool, as well as against combo.
The most useful tool against Swarmaggro and Tribal are still Engineered Explosives and against Goblins the Blue Blasts as they stop Ringleader and Siege Gang Commanger shenanigans.
Pyroclasm are also not efficient enough against Tribal decks as Elves (Imperious Perfect, Elvish Champion), Merfolk (Lord of Atlantis, Merow Reejerey) and even Goblins (Mad Auntie) can obsolete Pyroclasm easily.
Team SPOD
<Der_imaginäre_Freund> props:
Adan for being the NQG God (drawer)
Merfolk
"Good, bad, I'm the guy with the gun." --Ash
I only find this to be a problem when I'm not seeing a Counterbalance. For me, the deck has basically turned into Counterbalance.Control.Deck which eventually just drops something and goes on to kill the opponent. This is mainly due to the fact you stated: when playing 'fair', you just don't win a lot - you just lack true power (Intuition, Survival, Dark Confidant, Loam Engines, true lategame bombs etc.)
Basic solution: focus more on the CounterTop plan (e.g. by including more cmc3 cards in order to be able to hit them consistently which is worth gold against control and/or counterbalance-dodge cards).
Not really satisfying, but the only thing I can offer at this date.
After Stefan included Dryad into NQG/r (and finding out that they're awesome), I tried them too, in a build with maindeck Rhox War Monks and no Nimble Mongooses. However, au contrary to the red-splashed build, I found them rather disappointing: besides cantrips you don't have any spells that you can/want to play early or on a neutral to favourable board making Dryad's growth slowish if you don't have the Cantrip Flooded Draw (TM) - however, if you do have that draw, you normally don't need Dryad in order to win either as being able to chain cantrips like a madman puts you ahead in quite some matchups already. For sure you'll grow them to 3/3 after untaping with them on the board, and eventually will grow it to disproportionate dimensions (if they live that long) - however, they aren't reliably big and force you to overextend to a certain degree (which is not what you want to do, especially not against control - one of the matchups where you want Dryad most). Also, just like Nimble Mongoose or Jotun Grunt, they need time to be of any relevance to the board - time you don't have.
Since freakish777 posted a Canadian-Style White-Splashed Threshold list on the Adept Boards some time ago, I actually had the possibility to test Knight of the Reliquary myself. In that particular build, I never found him terrific: he was always a worse Terravore since you never really had the time to get the Wasteland-tutoring going... and Terravore already isn't exactly what you'd call the best option for Threshold.
In a control-shell, I can't see him pleasing me either as he's expensive (another drain on the curve), slowish, and does not offer built-in protection or evasion, unlike alternatives like Mystic Enforcer about whom people came to the consensus that he's semi-outdated too (I have recently grown to like him as a 1off again, though). He also doesn't really help bad matchups (unlike Rhox War Monk).
I therefore came to the conclusion that Knight of the Reliquary is something like 'Danger of New Things', as, if my testing hasn't totally deceived me, he's a mediocre merge of two sub-par finishers, with an interesting but not terribly good ability. The only thing that makes me smile about the new 'Vore is the ability to pull out some Tabernacles and Maze of Ith post-board against Aggro.
Team SPOD - ...land of the brave...
Thats true and its also a reason I run 1-off Tutor to get the "lock" even faster. My meta is really aggro oriented (hence War Monk) and still has different answers like the aforementioned Vindicate and stuff like Vexing Shusher (main). I just don't want to be rely on Counterbalance. Before CB was printed Threshold seemed to run fine and controllish without it. Balance/Top adds strength and consistency but also dependency.
I played Spirits red build and found Dryads quite good. If you look at both lists R / W you will see basically the same structure. Bolts are Swords and you even have more non-exclusivecards than in red with Rings. The problem I just figured out is the inclusion of Relic. They make Dryad the king on the board just long enough. White has Grunts for that but he's far too slow.
I found the full Wasteland package to be bad as well but this has been quite interesting:
1 A. Ruins
1 Wasteland
3 Knight
1 Crucible
1 EE
1 Enlightened Tutor
The package eats up a lot of space but all cards have benefits even if you are missing some parts. If they come together however they can be quite devastating. EE blows up CB true, but its often enough to use it on 1 or 3 or you have spare CB's already.
Still haven't tested enough though.
Last edited by Shugyosha; 02-10-2009 at 12:40 PM.
TS Crew
Hi guys, I'm quite new on the forums, but have been playing all kinds of Thres ranging from the older RUg to the Four-color style.
I'm really hyped on the new possibility you bring to the table: Rhox War Monk (RWM). Is this guy really the maindeck? I mean, I'm quite sure that they should be paired with it's best friend - Trygon Predator - and it also adds some 3cc to the CB in order to counter Deed's os so on. Is this guy good enought against Gobos, RDW or Merfolk? Do you have a testing report on him?
The real problem is if with this kind of build, rising up to 3cc and perhaps 1x4cc, could the deck survive to it's 17 land engine?. Now that we got rid of the mongoose (I really think we should move on this guy, with all of those relics running around, and because the deck is more permanent dependant), do you think it's ok to run the 8 cantrip engine? Wouldn't be nicer to move up to 19 - 20 lands (that's my testing point..as far as goes it's quite well).
I saw on the blog you mention before (German blog) the guy running a pair of Bant Charm...isn't this too much wasteland dependant? Is this card worth to make the cut?
I want to provide a list, currently running the 8 cantrip, for you to consider. Please feel free to argument it.
4 Flooded Strand
4 Windwept Heath
2 Tropical
2 Tundra
3 Island
1 Plains
1 Forest
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Counterbalance
3 Top
4 Swords to Plowsares
2 O'Ring
4 FoW
3 Daze
2 Counterspell
1 Pithing Needle
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 E . Tutor
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Trygon Predator
2 Rox War Monk
1 Sower of Temptation
I know there are some slots really strange, as the jitte on the md and so on, but I'm really worried on all the Gobos and Merfolk MU. Also it gets sinergy with E. Tutor, wich I really see as a nicer card to have at hand. People on the thread disagree on E. Tutor, but when you need anything on the toolbox, or to counter that critical 3cc, or even to o'ring that dreadnought, the card disadvantage is really worth it.
On the other hand, I believe that the real card advantage on the deck is Counterbalance itself. Heck, even the trygon predator can be considered as card advantage, (try it vs a landdstill, or threshold mirror, and you will know what I mean).
With this build you run:
17 x 1cc
14 x 2cc
6 x 3cc
1 x 4cc
I really wanted to have 1xSower just as trump in case, but could be swapped by M.Enforcer or anything else. I aggree with Adan that the best thing this deck has to offer, is it's strong manabase, so I wont go the red route that other memebers are suggesting. Also I would like to point out that pyroclasm does nothing against merfolk or Gobos. They simply rebuild or get a lord and you get -1 virtual card advantage. I really think that in order to beat Gobos, you have to be proactive with cards like StP or the new monk, wich gives some brand-new-shine on the deck. Also I won't run the SB with no less than 4 BeB against burn or Gobos (by the way, monk and jitte shine so well on the MU).
Cheers all.
I've just started to test a similar build but with a couple differences.
First off,
-2 O. Ring
-2 Counterspell
+4 Nimble Mongoose
Mongoose is still quite formidable, especially against Control, Fishesque, and decks with low threat counts. Besides, It might be a matter of semantics, but if you drop Mongoose, at least in my opinion, you are no longer playing Thresh, but UGx Fish.
-1 E.Tutor
-1 Pithing Needle
-1 EE
-1 Jitte
+1 Daze
+1 Rhox
I play a single E.Tutor in the standard build, as well, but with more slots devoted to creatures, and a slightly more aggro feel, I did not have room, nor did I want a tutor package. Plus Rhox is good, I like him.
Sower for Enforcer, as you mentioned.
+2 Jitte or PtE, haven't been too sure yet. Both could be very good.
The land count hasn't been a problem for me, though.
In some aggro matchup, i found Rhox war monk to be extremely difficult to play. Wasteland/Rishadan port can be problematic
Edit :I think that at a major tournament, i will be playing Dueling ground. These combined with 2-3 PTE SB should do the job against aggro
Plus, Dueling ground can be useful against dredge
Robert
Do not.
Do not play Dueling Ground, they suck horribly. By the time you gonna cast them , ETW or Ichorid smash your face. Rather use Propaganda, if you need such a card. Even though it does not help with Goblins (where Dueling Grounds shines, as it cripples their attack AND defense), in both AnT and Icho mu you will be very happy with it less intensive casting cost and possibility to pitch it to force.
I have tested the card, althoug NOT MUCH, so I can be wrong, but for me the card have noit done anything. Never ever.
Was this even a real Skeggi's hero?Lol. You're my hero.
The card is bad. The lists in the blog are only testing lists and Bant Charm was cut for better spells. I initially added it before I knew about Path to Exile. The problem with Charm is mostly the three mana for just a creature removal. You usually don't need the other two modes.
17-18 Lands are enough I think, even with a curve that features 5-6 cmcslots.
@Rhox: Yeah he is insane against Goyfsligh and Goblins. With 7-8 Fetches and 3 basics there are rarely problems to get. You won't play him turn three all the time but he is always a house. If you under severe manadenial you can always pitch him to FOW to save your cantrips for digging.
Whether you play him main or SB or cut him depends on your meta. In a meta with loads of Balanced aggro control Trygon main makes more sense obviously.
TS Crew
in a meta with full of dreadstill, Trygon is also the bomb. Unanswered and Dreadstill pretty much lost the game. Oh wait, UR variant that play 0 removal loses to a single resolved Trygon :D
Against Stompy deck, trygon is wonderful too.
But against aggro, its mediocre to bad. But im still not convinced with Rhox. More testing will bring better conclusions
Against TA, -1 krosan grip, -2 trygon +2-3 PTE. Are pithing needle needed in that MU? (Stop wasteland, and maybe ee/deed post SB)
Robert
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