The deck is an evolution of my work on Suicide Black. At the last Duel for Duals I placed 9th with Suicide Black. The discussion for that deck can be found here in the New and Developmental Forum. Feeling that the deck didn’t perform as well as I hoped I moved on in the months following the event in February to try other decks, but I kept this deck in the back of my mind. I knew that there were at least two problems with the deck, as it existed in February one it lacked reach meaning that if your creatures were stalled that you would just lose and two that the deck often times had too many dead cards specifically Vendetta, Diabolic Edict, and sometimes Duress. I searched for answers in Black because I really felt that splashing a color would not only wreck the consistency of the mana base but would also turn a strength of the deck into a weakness. Without too much success in Black I opened my options up to different colors. Red seemed the most natural fit because it allowed me to play removal without it being dead against decks without creatures. I worried about Duress being dead against aggro, but decided to keep it because of its incredible power against combo and control. I do want to thank Powergamer1003 and ObfuscateFreely for both encouragement on the original deck and for always offering good ideas. Evil Roopey also suggested adding Red to the deck when he was working on a similar deck.
Red Death
//Disruption
4 Duress
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Sinkhole
//Creatures
4 Phyrexian Negator
4 Nantuko Shade
4 Hypnotic Specter
3 Rotting Giant
1 Wretched Anurid
//Removal and Reach
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Chain Lightning
//Mana and Lands
7 Swamp
3 Badlands
4 Bloodstained Mire
3 Polluted Delta
4 Wasteland
4 Dark Ritual
//Sideboard
4 Infest
4 Dystopia
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Meltdown
Most of these card choices are explained in the older Suicide Black thread so I won’t restate them, but I will go over most of the changes and how some of them impact the way this deck plays. The main difference ofcourse is the inclusion of different removal spells.
Lightning Bolt – This card represents pretty much everything I want in a removal spell. It costs 1 and kills almost every turn 1 play in the format except Nimble Mongoose. It also doubles as reach against all decks especially control decks.
Chain Lightning – This was a much tougher choice mainly because it is sorcery. The fact isn’t an instant is a big deal, because you aren’t able to take down something like Goblin Warchief immediately or even catch a control player who has tapped out to play a spell. I looked at something like Magma Jet, but I decided that playing something that again costs only 1 mana for 3 damage was too good of a ratio to turn down. Since there were only 7 spots for removal in the orginial deck and so this one is only run as a 3 of since it is worse than Lightning Bolt.
Rotting Giant – I was never quite happy with my 4th creature. I jumped back and forth between Wretched Anurid and Flesh Reaver. I was never satisfied with either but with the addition of both fetchlands to support Red and the additional burn in the new version Rotting Giant became a great alternative to either Anurid or Flesh Reaver. There are only 3 in the deck to prevent drawing too many of them at the same time and thus the 1 Anurid is included to round out the creatures. Playing only 3 was Powergamer1003’s idea. My original list had 4. I remember asking ObfuscateFreely if he thought I could run Rotting Giant in Suicide Black, but he told me I would need to run fetchlands. Looks like he was right.
The sideboard can obviously vary based on a metagame, but I did decide to run Meltdown as a way to answer artifacts as well as a way to beat Affinity if necessary. After watching Powergamer1003 play Rise/Fall against Solidarity and finding that it seemed less than stellar I decided to look for a replacement. I was going to run Distress but was unable to find any and instead opted for Cabal Therapy and it turned out really well against combo.
I finalized this list only a few days before the Duel for Duals so we did not have time to test it. We also realized that while it was untested it could definitely be a big surprise. Though its similarity to my Suicide Black list made me feel pretty comfortable.
The name for this deck is inspired by the short story “The Masque of the Red Death” by Edgar Allan Poe. That could be the name for the deck (and if you want to call it that I like that as well), but I know that long names rarely ever catch on. Red Death is succinct enough while still being descriptive.
I will post a brief tournament report as well later. But I did want to kick off discussion of this deck and hope to see everyone’s input.
Last edited by AnwarA101; 07-11-2006 at 04:48 PM.
I was going to suggest calling the deck Bloody Murder, but I can't really say no to Poe references.
I like how the burn spells make up for Sui's historic lack of good turn 1 plays sans Ritual. That in mind, was Grim Lavamancer tested any? It seems to fit in the deck's strategies really well.
For my confessions, they burned me with fire/
And found I was for endurance made
Congrats on the success and thanks for the explanation. The build makes a lot more sense when you compare it to standard Sui Black.
I was curious.
How has negator been. It seems like a bad idea in a format dominated by creatures and burn, but your much success both at last D4D and this one suggests otherwise.
Have you considered Grim Lavamancer. You may have to cut Rotting Giant but Lavamancer is one of the best creatures ever printed esp in a format filled with creatures like this one.
Any reason you didn't run Dark Confidant. He does so much.
What did you do when an opponent cast a Jitte or SOFI. This deck doesn't seem to have any options against them.
What about Sedge Troll. In a format full of creatures, this seems like a great choice. Possibly to replace Negator.
Also before opting for the red splaash, did you consider something like Jitte instead. It can fulfill a lot of the same functions that red serves.
Decklist deleted. Please suggest specific card choices without posting entire decklists. It clutters up the thread and creates confusion about which list is being discussed. -Zilla
I would ask about Magma Jet too but it clearly doesn't fit the curve.
Last edited by Zilla; 07-11-2006 at 04:04 PM.
I'd suggest Grim Lavamancer. My only worry would be the correct boarding options against you of engineered plague for wizard at that point.
-Steve
Originally Posted by Pinder
How come it needs to be a holiday to bang noobslayer's sister?
With Lavamancer as the only Wizard?
For my confessions, they burned me with fire/
And found I was for endurance made
Confidant is a Wizard too, if you play it... But would you really board in Plagues against 8 creatures of your opponents?
What were your match-ups in the D4D? It looks really solid...
This is kind of ironic because there is an entire museum in Richmond dedicated to Edgar Allan Poe that my parents visited that weekend.
I think that making Hypnotic Specter anything less than a 4-of isn't a good idea especially since it's one of the better cards in the deck. I do like the idea of adding Jitte though. It can act as removal, and is just an all around awesome card.
The unicorns were the most recognizable magic the fairies possessed, and they sent them to those worlds where belief in the magic was in danger of failing altogether. After all, there has to be some belief in magic--however small--for any world to survive. --Terry Brooks--(The Black Unicorn)
Team Unicorn: Majestic bringers of doom and destruction. Need proof? Ask and you shall receive....
Some of us were actually betting on how long it would take for someone to suggest running dark confidant. Whoever said that someone would post the idea before the deck was even posted just out of principle was actually the closest.
Here are the posts I could find that best clarify the reasons that dark confidant shouldn't be in this deck:
one
two
three
Be my pupil on mybrute. It's fun. I swear.
a. You're running 4 Negators. So it's clear that you aren't worried about blockers and plan to burn them. If that's the case, the fact that Confidant doesn't have evasion shouldn't be a big factor. If you can support Negator, you can support Confidant.
b. I'm not saying to run Dark Confidant in Hippie's slot. I'm saying run it in Rotting Giant's slot. So statements as to why Hippie is better aren't relevent. I fully support running a full playset of Hippies.
c. Confidant is actually a lot stronger in this than in standard Sui. This is because it will often get you an extra burn spell or two per game and thus helps you kill your opponent faster. It also lets you get extra duress etc which can really help with disruption.
I hate to quote myself but this is the reaon not to play Confidant in Sui
Yes I've played Bw Confidant. In that deck he really shines. But this deck is quite different than Sui-black. Bw Confidant is a control deck, this is aggro, with some control elements. This deck plays more creatures and less disruption. Your late game is bad, whether you have Confidant or not.
All land and hand disruption loose there power overtime. The disruption looses his power after turn 5. As I said before, a sinkhole doesn't hurt when your opponent has 4 lands in play. Hymn to Tourach is bad when you're opponent played his entire hand. Diabolic Edict is not that powerfull if you're opponent has 2 or more creatures. Vendetta will become worse, when you're opponent plays more expensive threaths. So you need to kill as fast as possible, before you're creatures and disruption loose their strength. So Confidant will draw into disruption that becomes weaker and weaker, while the other creatures have a faster clock, or denies you're opponent from cards.
Bw-Confidant plays Engineered Plague, Cursed Scroll, Swords to Plowshare and Vindicate. The first two are reasonably late game and the last two are just great.
Wow Scott that was fast. Was that a whole 13 minutes before someone suggested confidant.
The Reason one can compare him to negator is that we ARE still worried about blockers. The plan is not to burn the out and swing with negator, but for negator to plow right through them. The deck can take the loss of lands. I often times let negator plow right through lackey's and warchiefs.
The real problem with confidant is the loss of tempo. Out side of getting burn, confidant really does not help this deck's late game plan. Rotting giant does things like fight with anything an live, which is very helpful in the goblins matchup. I found when playing this deck that you need to put goblins on the defensive to win, which is what makes the matchup favorable. In addition, while he does get your cards faster, they are really dead in the late game. Remeber, this deck comes out of the flood gates, but many of its cards are not as strong in the late game.
To see my tournament report you can view it here: http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3786
How has Duress been? I would think a one drop a la Sarcomancy might be better. Confidant shouldn't be run, I definately agree with that. What about Sedge Troll, a personal favorite? Magma Jet also deserves testing.
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Setting Confidant aside (you can run Wretched Anurid or Sedge Troll in it's place)
What about Lavamancer?
If it gets burned or StPed, atleast thats a burn spell it directed away from something Hypnotic Spectar or Negator, which is often worse.
It does 2 damage for each red mana you put into it. It actually does a lot more damage than Lightning Bolt in just 2-3 turns. And any game with this deck will last atleast 5 turns if not more.
It's actually golden against goblins since Goblins hardly runs any removal, and it will kill off a differnt goblin each turn, for just one mana.
But I'm not saying to replace Chain Lightning with. I was wondering why it can't supplement the burn as it does in the list I posted above.
Chill out, man.
Anyway, I'm glad the deck placed well, Anwar. The list is looking pretty solid, though I hope that when we discuss card choices we won't have to run into another Confidant debate. And, as always, I'm delighted at the inclusion of Phyrexian Negator (not just a personal favorite, but also a very underused card, in my opinion. I loved sacrificing copies of Sarcomancy to this guy... and useless lands).
But the question I wanted to ask was: how's the sideboard been working out for you? Were there times where you wished there were different cards in the slots?
Last edited by Shysh; 07-11-2006 at 04:45 PM.
I'm skeptical about Grim Lavamancer mainly because he probably will not be active as soon as turn 2. He is also very brittle and dies to every removal spell. The biggest problem I have with him is having to keep a red open when I want to use up all my mana on all the early turns. So I won't be burning my opponent until like turn 4 when I have extra mana to use. In the mean time he is only swinging for 1 and that doesn't seem like enough pressure to put your opponent on the defensive. I disagree that Grim Lavamancer would be good against Goblins. Mogg Fanatic kills him on the spot and Gempalm does a really good job too.
I believe the issue of Dark Confidant has been discussed earlier and I agree with most of the posts that offer reasons for his exclusion.
Last edited by Zilla; 07-12-2006 at 07:09 PM.
I know I said this already, was Sedge Troll and or Magma Jet tested? I agree with Roop running Carnophage/sarcomancy over some of the disruption, although cutting all of the disruption is a bad idea(something I found out at Kadi's DLD).
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Someone please shut me up if I'm just not getting something, but I could never see the usefulness of Sedge Troll. A Trained Armodon that can regenerate? This is just my two cents, but this is how I see it: The deck has good 3/3s already. They're cheap and get the job done. Regeneration implies there's something of equal size or bigger on the table, which is a problem in itself for this deck (if it's out of the burn's reach). On top of that, you can't ritual it out, meaning it'll always be attacking on the fourth turn, if at all.
To sum things up, it's my opinion that Sedge Troll is just to slow for a deck like Red Death, and doesn't have the substance to compensate for its speed in a deck that is all about laying the shit storm quick.
I see your point about troll, but it is huge against things that play big creatures(Thresh, Affinity) because it can regenerate and is undercosted. Against Thresh, you are actually slower then they are without Ritual. Troll allows you to hold off/trade with Geese and Bears, while you build up creatures and disrupt them as much as possilbe, then alpha strike
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Anwar, Regarding Grim Lavamancer as I advocate on the third post.
As far as removal like Magma Jet. Let's put it this way, would you rather that Jet was used to take out Lavamancer, or to take out the Hippie which you invested 3 mana to cast?
Mogg Fanatic is about the only removal where Lavamancer hurts more than running something else. Even then, if that Fanatic didn't sac itself early to take out Lavamancer, it would have dealt 2 damage to Negator costing you 2 lands, 2 lands you would rather be saccing to some 2 power blocker instead.
Nantuko Shade is just as easy to burn out early on, and it takes a 2 mana investment with it. Lavamancer atleast deals 2 damage to blockers and such each turn that it's around.
Yes, this deck aims for the head, but I've played it a bit in the past day and it does have a spare mana or two even early on (that's why you ran Shade I'm assuming). Lavamancer is not bad early like Shade often is, and I find it helps out in a lot of situations that you can't even anticipate.
Nantuko Shade has great synergy with extra Dark Rituals. Shade can do immense amount of damage starting as early as turn 3. He can swing for 5. Lavamancer only does 2 a turn though he can kill creatures. But I think the Goblin matchup is one of the main reasons to not run Lavamancer because he is so easily killed in that matchup. You need threats in this deck that can win the game all by themselves. Grim Lavamancer seems hardly like to do that when any and all removal beats him. Any Legacy deck that can't answer 1/1 is probably bound to lose to you anyway.
What creature configuration would you run? I'm skeptical about Sedge Troll as well because you can't Ritual into him. That seems to make him a bit slow. Making ritual less explosive seems poor.
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