[Deck] Aggro ITF aka Intuion Loam MoxD Aggro-Control

[rockSTAR]

Hi Folks,

there is some kind of hybrid doing T8 every month in germany right now. It looks and plays like a mix of the classic Baseruption by aYb (with chrome Mox, Finkel etc.) and ITF.

First some T8 Decklists:

http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=24965
http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=24136
http://trader-online.de/turniere/Decks/2009-02-T15.html

The way the decks plays: Agressively. One word. It wants the 1st turn CC2 Spell (CB, Confi, Goyf) or at least a top. The deck tries to start more aggresively as decks like threshold, plus getting a stronger lategame with the intuition-engine.

The Problems I see:

- The landcount varies between 20 and 22. I think 22 is the way to go because of the fact, that you run 4 MoxD.
- The manacurve sucks... nearly half of the deck is cc0 and you tend to play about 10 cc1 spells.

What do you guys think about the lists?
There must be something about it, since that aren't the only t8 results of the deck.

Peace
Tim

[emidln]

This reminds me of the Intuitive Thresh list that I could never convince rsaunder or white_ghost to play at a real tournament. Intuition is a huge powerhouse in Threshold-style decks providing a real late game through recursion that Threshold usually lacks. If you make your Intuition targets varied copies of things you'd already play (say EE + Shriekmaw instead of 2 Path to Exile) you end up with Intuition targets that are okay to draw themselves but still provide game-breaking piles.

[Anusien]

Stifle is on a downward slide in Counterbalance decks meaning your Engineered Explosives are safer, but it's a high possibility that you become able to resolve Intuition under Counterbalance and still not be able to remove it. That was always the problem when I worked on Intuition decks (and part of why I added Demigods); you build around Loam so much that you end up terribly constrained under Counterbalance.

[Elf_Ascetic]

Stifle is on a downward slide in Counterbalance decks meaning your Engineered Explosives are safer, but it's a high possibility that you become able to resolve Intuition under Counterbalance and still not be able to remove it. That was always the problem when I worked on Intuition decks (and part of why I added Demigods); you build around Loam so much that you end up terribly constrained under Counterbalance.

I haven't seen one (winning) list that countained both 4 CB/3 Top AND 4 Stifle. Ever. I think 2 EE and 2 Vindicate form a very safe way to get rid of CB.

I never liked the idea of moxen in Threshold (or Baseruption, NQG, Whatever you call it), but a faster Intuition is a good reason to run it.

Last point: 2 Mishra's Factory? Really? Those lands are dreadfull when you want your T2 Counterbalance, you're already packing 3 other colorless lands.

[jeanbathez]

@rockstar : perfect, finally someone started a thread about this deck, i also recognized the results of the deck but until yet ! no discussion about this deck.

I also see the same problems as you did, but haven't found a good solution until yet.
One of the strengths is has, is to start the game with a 2 drop, is perfect.
A turn 1 bob or cb is really a strong start

[morgan_coke]

That deck would be a lot better -3 Mishra's Factory and +1 Volrath's Stronghold +2 Island. (or a 1/1 Island/Wasteland split if you really wanted to push it.)

Having a decent number of basics in your deck isn't a bad thing. Its actually, like, totally the opposite.

[Adan]

That deck would be a lot better -3 Mishra's Factory and +1 Volrath's Stronghold +2 Island. (or a 1/1 Island/Wasteland split if you really wanted to push it.)

Having a decent number of basics in your deck isn't a bad thing. Its actually, like, totally the opposite.

And totally senseless. You already have 2 Basic Islands and 4 Mox Diamonds which already make you resilent against Manadenial.

Fabian Moyschewitz piloted it to a Place 3 in March and won yesterdays Hassloch event with it (he and Patrick Richter built that deck together, Fabian also went 6-1-1 in Utrecht, 9th Place).

Here's the list with less "cute" stuff:

http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=24765

Volrath's Stronghold also doesn't make much sense as you don't have a recursion engine with Eternal Witness or Etched Oracle. The cardadvantage comes from Dark Confidant and Life from the Loam. Also notice that Kim Kluck played the Stronghold at the Grand Prix Hanover Sideevent but then cut it at the next event.

[jazzykat]

I've tested Kim Kluck's list of Team CAB fame, and found it to be nuts when it worked but was quite disappointed if I didn't see diamond in my opening hand. With a Diamond opening it was VERY good, without it was prone to color screw.

[Unknown2]

4 Dark Confidant
4 Tarmogoyf
1 Vednillion Clique

4 Brainstorm
3 Daze
4 Force of Will
2 Intuition
3 Swords to Plowshares
1 Life from the Loam
2 Vindicate
3 Counterbalance
2 Engineered Explosives
4 Mox Diamond
3 Sensei's Divining Top

1 Academy Ruins
3 Flooded Strand
2 Island
2 Mishra's Factory
4 Polluted Delta
3 Tropical Island
2 Tundra
2 Underground Sea
1 Wasteland
----

This is what I've been playing with lately and having decent success. I don't believe counterbalance works all that well with this deck, however. I mean, it's good, but I really don't think this deck supports it like other decks do.

[jeanbathez]

I've found a list from Kim Kluck playing 22 lands with Cephalid Coliseum. Sometimes i had the feeling that 20 lands with moxes is a bit low, forceing me into taking more mulligans.

Here is the list :
link : http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=25239

4 Dark Confidant
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Brainstorm
3 Daze
4 Force of Will
2 Intuition
3 Swords to Plowshares
1 Life from the Loam
2 Vindicate
3 Counterbalance
2 Engineered Explosives
4 Mox Diamond
3 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Academy Ruins
1 Cephalid Coliseum
3 Flooded Strand
2 Island
3 Mishra's Factory
4 Polluted Delta
2 Tropical Island
2 Tundra
3 Underground Sea
1 Wasteland

# 61

Sideboard:

2 Kitchen Finks
1 Sower of Temptation
3 Blue Elemental Blast
2 Krosan Grip
1 Swords to Plowshares
2 Engineered Plague
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Jötun Grunt

# 15

Interesting Point : 61 cards!!!

@jazzykat : I also found it sometimes diapointing without mox in my opening hand, also drawing a mox without loam online wasn't that good.

@all : What do you think about the vindicates, are they really needed, or are there alternatives ? I know vindicates are never bad, but perhaps cutting them for f.e. 3ed Intuition or adding a witness with stronghold for recursion or other things ???

[Heresy]

This reminds me of the Intuitive Thresh list that I could never convince rsaunder or white_ghost to play at a real tournament.

Do you mind sharing a list?

[Blitzbold]

And totally senseless. You already have 2 Basic Islands and 4 Mox Diamonds which already make you resilent against Manadenial.

The deck works fine on the number of basics it already contains.

Volrath's Stronghold also doesn't make much sense as you don't have a recursion engine with Eternal Witness or Etched Oracle. The cardadvantage comes from Dark Confidant and Life from the Loam. Also notice that Kim Kluck played the Stronghold at the Grand Prix Hanover Sideevent but then cut it at the next event.

I really like the deck and am working on it from time to time, often in collaboration with Kim. There are some issues which are bothering me, mainly the number of blue cards being only 16. This is the reason why I suggested Vendilion Clique at the GP Sideevent where Kim and I played the exact same 75. At this event we also tried Stronghold (in place of a factory I think), but we found it underwhelming. Vendilion Clique on the other hand was fine for both of us, adding some disruption as well as providing flying beats.

Another recent idea was the addition of Lorescale Coatl replacing 1 Goyf + x and thus upping the number of blue cards in the deck. Cephalid Coliseum would then be on double-duty, both providing CA in conjunction with loam and pumping Coatl. The problem with this is that the deck doesn't need additional (dumb) beaters as it's clock is fine right now.

EDIT
Note that there is still work in progress on variations as can be seen here:
http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=27011

[Goaswerfraiejen]

@all : What do you think about the vindicates, are they really needed, or are there alternatives ? I know vindicates are never bad, but perhaps cutting them for f.e. 3ed Intuition or adding a witness with stronghold for recursion or other things ???

You can cut white altogether and go to black for your removal, which gives you Snuff Out and Maelstrom Pulse, as well as Deed if you want it. At that point, however, I don't think that you will want to run Confidant any more. You've already got 16 non-Confidant sources of significant damage (3+ cc spells, fetchlands, etc.). Going up to Snuff Out and keeping Confidant would be suicidal. The good news is that you can cut Confidant for a real threat and still maintain good sources of card advantage. It's up to you, really. 'Course, going that route brings you significantly closer to Intuition-Thresh.


The reason that Stronghold isn't working out so well is twofold, I think:

1.) You really don't have much to recur with it. Adding a Witness won't really change that, since that's mana-intensive, and EE doesn't combo well with Diamond, your main source of acceleration. The problem here is the lack of significant threat redundancy: you can recur Tarmogoyf, but that's pretty much it, and it's very vulnerable. Witness can be part of the solution here, but on its own it won't be the whole solution.

2.) Stronghold eats up a draw, and sets you up for damage from Confidant. That makes it significantly less enticing in most games.

I have three(ish) questions for those who have played this deck extensively: 1.) How effective is Counterbalance in the deck? 2.) How do games without a first-turn Diamond play out, and would you be better served by some other form of acceleration? 3.) With five colourless lands and three that lock you into blue only (for a total of 8/22, depending on lists of course), and with a deck that runs four colours and can't afford to be cut off from one, how resilient is your manabase? Are the tradeoffs all worth it?

[jeanbathez]

@Goaswerfraiejen : Thanks for yor answer, hadn't found it until yet ;-)
Intuition-Thres is a interesting option, i watch the thread from time time, but i must admit cutting swords and without confidant .

1.) CB in the deck, depends on matchups, but its not as good as in ITF f.e., the 3 CC isn't good, but in a lot of games i used the ET for the needed CC.
2.) The games with a mox start are fantastic, Bob first turn..amazing, or just sometimes only top + looking at top 3 was so good, other form of accelation, i can`t think of any that would be good, and that would be another deck...
3.) I never had problems with manabase, it was fantastic and very safe at most games...