Using Krosan Grip

[Forbiddian]

Not sure where to put this question, but this came up in a conversation, and I think it has to due with rulings as much as it has to do with playing the game.


Anyway, the situation goes something like this: Your opponent casts a saccable enchantment or artifact, like Pernicious Deed or Engineered Explosives. You have a Kgrip in hand and stuff you'd like to protect. The next time you get priority, you're going to blow it up.

Your opponent doesn't want to pop it right now (would rather wait until the end of your turn or just leave it in play to discourage playing further cards), but would gladly destroy it if he knew it was about to get gripped.

After resolving the Deed, your opponent makes another play in the same mainphase. In the scenario, it's a play that makes it far more critical to Kgrip the Deed immediately (like they cast Sterling Grove, for instance).

If you say, "Ok" it's understood that your opponent passed you priority and you passed back, resolving the Sterling Grove. That sucks. According to the rules as I understand it, you can't say, "Ok" to "trick" someone into passing you priority (for the same reason that you can't cast Cabal Therapy and say "Tarmogoyf" and then change the name to Force of Will when they pass back). So you couldn't go like, "Ok" and then when they reach to put the Grove into play, you go, "Wait, before it resolves Kgrip the Deed."

If you say something like, "Do you pass priority?" It's now obvious that you're holding a Kgrip and he should immediately pop the Deed.

The only thing I can think of is pretending to think. But if you're playing a deck without countermagia for the Sterling Grove, it should be obvious to any player used to seeing Kgrip that you're probably holding a Kgrip.


Or another situation: Your opponent has 20 mana open. You have trickbind open and they have a Sacred Mesa and it's during your combat step. This actually happened in a game. If they go like, "Make 4 tokens." It's ambiguous like did they make one, try to resolve it, make one more, try to resolve it, or did they go all out.

If you ask, "Are you doing those one at a time?" Any idiot could see the trickbind (or Kgrip) broadcast and go, "Uhm, no, and instead of 4 tokens, I'm making 10 tokens all on the stack, then I pass priority."

Enchantress is a deck that probably should have just done that at the end of its turn to play around Trickbind, but it's quite reasonable that people only make the tokens they need to block, then make the rest at endstep (due to training that you're supposed to do everything endstep to avoid giving people info, even though Enchantress has no instants anyway).

What do you do in those situations? Basically how do you make sure that your opponent actually passed you priority without broadcasting that you have a split second card.


My friend's suggestion was just to ask if your opponent passes priority on a regular basis. I think this is very boring, and I don't see anybody else doing it. But at the same time, if I'm running Kgrip in any deck, I want to be able to cast it without revealing its presence beforehand, because that could lose games (even if not in as fantastic a fashion as the two scenarios above).

I dunno, when Wizards ruined the game by making Split Second, did they happen to unruin it by at least making a rule so that the person with the split second card isn't broadcasting it everywhere?

[Sanguine Voyeur]

I don't understand the problem in the first scenario. When he goes to play Grove, he will either respond or pass priority. This can usually be indicated by him immediately following is up with something for the former or a pause for the latter.

[jjjoness']

What do you do in those situations? Basically how do you make sure that your opponent actually passed you priority without broadcasting that you have a split second card.

I think it should be like this:
Let's take your example: If your opponents asks, just like you ask "ok?" on MWS, if you would like to respond to his Sterling Grove, he actually says that he already passed priority.
As passing priority always is an active thing, and you have to say that you do so, I really think players should tell their opponents when they get priority.

[Elficidium]

Both of these are explained in detail in at least 1 of the topics on this page of the rules board. First is pretty simple, you pass priority when playing a spell when not explicitly stating that you retain it.
Second is a shortcut, he adds multiple objects, you can stop him anywhere in between those.

But since it's 11pm here and english isn't my native language I'm going to let akki explain it properly with the correct rules references.

[frogboy]

I'll let cdr answer the rest of the post, but as for this:

According to the rules as I understand it, you can't say, "Ok" to "trick" someone into passing you priority

I'm not sure what you're trying to get at, but if you ask for priority, you have to actually do something with it.

[Nihil Credo]

A good way to avoid your opponent even trying to backtrack when you want to stop him in the middle of a short-cut is to, first thing, repeat to him what he just said, verbatim. For example: "Wait! You said 'Make fourteen Mesa tokens', without saying that you retained priority. So, in response to the first one, I'll Trickbind your Mesa." Even if he still calls a judge, having his words clear for both will make the call a lot quicker.

[Jaiminho]

According to the rules as I understand it, you can't say, "Ok" to "trick" someone into passing you priority

Both "Ok?" and "Ok." mean you are passing priority. In order to pass priority, you must already have it, obviously.

[Adan]

Interesting discussion.

That's why I always say during some matches of Highlander "I put Yawgmoth's Bargain's ability 7 times onto the stack.", because then they can KGrip it, but I'd still draw 7 cards. A friend of mine always fucks up at that point. He always goes like "Hm, I draw a card..." "KGrip" "Shit.".

Same could be true for Trickbind as well here.

[Julian23]

I'm under the assumption that if your opponent doesn't state he's gonna retain priority after putting something on the stack right away it's assumed he's passing you priority.

[Elficidium]

I'm under the assumption that if your opponent doesn't state he's gonna retain priority after putting something on the stack right away it's assumed he's passing you priority.

It's defined that way in the rules, actually.

[Forbiddian]

Hmm. Ok, so the rules state somewhere that priority is never retained unless explicitly stated?

I've not heard of that and gotten into arguments over Krosan Grip activations from players wanting to squeeze more out of their enchantments.



"For example: "Wait! You said 'Make fourteen Mesa tokens', without saying that you retained priority. So, in response to the first one, I'll Trickbind your Mesa.""

Seems like he put 14 tokens on the stack, then passed you priority. Since he didn't say he retained priority, I would assume that means he passed you priority with 14 token generations on the stack as opposed to making one, then another, then another. Otherwise he wouldn't be giving you time to respond, because he made 13 additional tokens without even asking for an "Ok."

So what's the actual ruling in that situation?

If someone says, "Buff Pyschatog 19 times." You can't bolt it because it's assumed he waited for you to respond before putting the other 16 buffs on the stack, even though he didn't?

It seems like it should be one way or another, but I've seen pros even like buff tog once and wait for the ok, then again, etc. against red-based decks.


Another example: "I'll activate Sensei's Diving Top. Then I'll Tap Goblin Welder targetting Sensei's Diving Top and Mindslaver."

"You didn't say you retained priority. I allow Sensei's Diving Top to resolve. Goblin Welder has an illegal target. Put Sensei's Divining Top on top of your library. Untap Goblin Welder. GG."


It seems like they're responsible for retaining priority (or else it's automatically assumed that they pass it). Still, I've never heard someone say, "Retaining priority, I'll tap Sensei's Divining Top. In response, I'll tap Goblin Welder targetting SDT and Mindslaver." Maybe now you have to?

I don't mind being more precise with my language, but it seems like there's a lot of room to screw with people by pulling some technicality on them about priority. I'd like to get this cleared up on what I have to say or do and what my opponent has to say or do.

[citanul]

The correct answer can already be found here: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...ad.php?t=11692

Whenever a player adds an object to the stack, he or she is assumed to be passing priority unless he or she explicitly announces that he or she intend to retain it. If he or she adds a group of objects to the stack without explicitly retaining priority and a player wishes to take an action at a point in the middle, the actions should be reversed up to that point.

[Bardo]

If someone says, "Buff Pyschatog 19 times." You can't bolt it because it's assumed he waited for you to respond before putting the other 16 buffs on the stack, even though he didn't

In situations like this, your opponent needs to be clear. If my opponent said, "pump Tog 19 times" and passed priority, I would argue I could Lightning Bolt it (assuming there was no other Tog-food between their hand and gy) and kill it. This came up a lot during Mirrodin block and people getting careless when sac'ing things to Ravager.

[KillemallCFH]

In situations like this, your opponent needs to be clear. If my opponent said, "pump Tog 19 times" and passed priority, I would argue I could Lightning Bolt it (assuming there was no other Tog-food between their hand and gy) and kill it. This came up a lot during Mirrodin block and people getting careless when sac'ing things to Ravager.

At a tournament about a year ago, a similar thing happened to a friend. He had a 1/1 Ravager and was facing down a Jitte with 2 counters on it. He swung in and declared he was going to sac everything to Ravager. His opponent Jitte'd it in response and it was ruled that the Ravager would die since it wasn't explicitly stated that he was passing priority in between each activation.

Not sure if there is really any precedent there, but I figured I'd mention it.

[Elficidium]

At a tournament about a year ago, a similar thing happened to a friend. He had a 1/1 Ravager and was facing down a Jitte with 2 counters on it. He swung in and declared he was going to sac everything to Ravager. His opponent Jitte'd it in response and it was ruled that the Ravager would die since it wasn't explicitly stated that he was passing priority in between each activation.

Not sure if there is really any precedent there, but I figured I'd mention it.

The "passing priority autmaticly" thing is pretty new. Not sure if it's under a year old but this could be very relevant.

[cdr]

In situations like this, your opponent needs to be clear. If my opponent said, "pump Tog 19 times" and passed priority, I would argue I could Lightning Bolt it (assuming there was no other Tog-food between their hand and gy) and kill it. This came up a lot during Mirrodin block and people getting careless when sac'ing things to Ravager.

No, your opponent does not need to be clear. It's ideal if he's clear, but there's a defined default, and that default (as said in the other thread) is that he is passing priority between each activation. No Bolting Tog for you.

At a tournament about a year ago, a similar thing happened to a friend. He had a 1/1 Ravager and was facing down a Jitte with 2 counters on it. He swung in and declared he was going to sac everything to Ravager. His opponent Jitte'd it in response and it was ruled that the Ravager would die since it wasn't explicitly stated that he was passing priority in between each activation.

Not sure if there is really any precedent there, but I figured I'd mention it.

No Jitte-ing Ravager for you either.

[Forbiddian]

Ok, thanks everyone, that cleared up all my misconceptions!

[Magician]

So if someone plays a critter, when do i get priority to swords to plowshare it? i let it resolve and they get priority back. when do i get to?

[Taurelin]

So if someone plays a critter, when do i get priority to swords to plowshare it? i let it resolve and they get priority back. when do i get to?

Only after the opponent gives it to you, i.e. when he's finished putting stuff on the stack or wants to move to the next step.

Example:
He plays Goblin Warchief, passes priority.
Warchief is not in play yet, so you can't use your StoP yet. You have to pass as well.

Now Goblin Warchief is in play. Your opponent has priority, so you still can't play your StoP.

Then he plays a Goblin Piledriver for R. He passes priority.
Now is your first chance to StoP the Warchief, but there is no way you can avoid the cost-reduction for the Piledriver in this scenario.

[Phoenix Ignition]

That last answer just brought to mind another k-grip non-related question about priorities.

If I declare attackers and the opponent wants to animate his Mishra's Factory to block it, do I get priority in between the declare attacks step and the declare blockers step to swords to plowshares his factory before it gets a chance to block my guys?