Avacyn Restored Card Discussion [SIMMERING POT OF FECAL MATTER]

[SpikeyMikey]

Except for some strange stuff like Serra Avenger, cards that aren't in play (or suspended) don't really have any positive interaction with Time Walk or its friends. To get something out of it, you really need some kind of a board presence. In Vintage, I would expect, it's all about plopping down a bunch of mana sources that can then be untapped and reused - a bit like a [cards]Reset[/card] that cantrips, and that you can cast on your own turn.

An issue here is that the Miracle mechanics interact relatively poorly with most of the card advantage engines people like to use - more or less by design. Because you only get one chance to Miracle per turn, a deck with heavy hand filling power will probably tend to choke on them.



Based on that, I'd be looking at decks that don't draw heavily, and tend to have a significant board presence to work well with Time Walk 2.0. More turns also means more chances to miracle. Since miracle will work on the opponent's turn too - light card draw works well with it. Finally, there are a couple of cards that can allow you to recover some value from a 'dead drawn' miracle card -- Brainstorm,Chrome Mox and, for Time Walk 2.0 Force of Will come to mind - though there are also some more obscure possibilities like Scroll Rack.

This suggests that the decks best-positioned to take advantage of Time Walk 2.0 will be ones that play 2 or 3 of Brainstorm, FoW, and Chrome Mox, and like to establish a board position.

What Legacy decks *do* draw heavily? Seriously, name one draw spell that's played on any sort of regular basis? Standstill and Ancestral Visions see marginal play, but they're not exactly common. The rest is deck manipulation. Thought Scour sees some play, but it's primarily Ponder, Brainstorm and Sensei's Divining Top. Those are cards you use to set it up. Decks that run a bit more to the controlling side still don't really run draw. I play BUG and I run Gifts Ungiven, but not a single actual "draw" spell. Just fixing cantrips.

On this whole concept of "win more" cards. This is probably the dumbest concept that people outside of card advantage theory. The idea that because Time Walk is at its best when you already have board presence it's not worth running is so illogical that I can't understand how anyone spouts it with a straight face. If I've got board inevitability in the form of a 5 turn clock and I can play something that speeds that clock up, I'm absolutely going to do it. Every turn I deny my opponent before he's dead is one less turn for him to draw into something that turns the game around. You people understand that, otherwise you wouldn't run disruption in your Delver decks, you'd just drop a turn 1 Delver and try and race. So how you can have a disconnect between the idea that tempo matters and the idea that taking an extra turn is the best tempo there is is beyond me. That's like saying that Ancestral Recall is a win more card in control mirrors because if you can resolve Ancestral Recall, you were going to win anyway. You know what? Maybe, sometimes, that's right. I don't care. I'm going to cast it anyway, because it gives me that many more tools to deal with my opponent's bullshit. And I'm going to run it because sometimes it's going to save my ass.

[bruizar]

Don't forget green has mirri's guile and sylvan library.

also, what spikey mikey said

[Barook]

Does beserk stompy want this? I'm really not sure.

Berserk Stompy lacks the manipulation.

U/G Infect Stompy with Brainstorm and counter protection might be interesting, though. It does enable turn 2 kills with a T1 creature + another pump spell.

[I am the brainwasher]

I had hoped for a Miracle creature. This looks unplayable, though probably not so bad in limited...

Not so bad? Not so bad?
Christ this is one heck of a card in limited!

[Koby]

On the topic of Win More - there is no such thing. You haven't won until your opponent is dead.

[Infinitium]

Conditional green sweeper? For one mana? Granted it doesn't play nice with Mongoose or Delver of Secrets (so we're generally talking turn 4 boardrecking), doesn't nab all utility creatures (Mom, Lavamancer and Stoneforger can all tap out of it) and is only playable in aggressive decks but still. Don't really see a deck for it though.

[The Big Ragu]

On the topic of Win More - there is no such thing. You haven't won until your opponent is dead.

There are such things as win more cards, and people should avoid playing them at all costs.

[TsumiBand]

Berserk Stompy lacks the manipulation.

U/G Infect Stompy with Brainstorm and counter protection might be interesting, though. It does enable turn 2 kills with a T1 creature + another pump spell.

Infect Stompy already pulls T2 / T3 wins without conditional pump spells, though. This seems like a really good example of a time when you don't want to sink a bunch of deck stacking jank into a Miracle card - a 'not combat trick' that is also a Lure, in a deck where you want to force through as many poison counters as you're able to. If you just happen to have this in your opening 7 and no way to really stack it correctly, it's real dumb and probably worse than, say, Invigorate.

[DragoFireheart]

Of course not, but there are drawbacks in playing this particular card. You need to play basically uncastable cards that are only good when on top of your deck. You will take extra mulligans because of that. Also, the power of Time Walk comes from being able to use it when it actually matters and gives you benefit of breaking the symmetry, like when you're racing or looking for answers. You lose all that when you HAVE to cast it when you draw it, no matter if you have board position to take advantage of or not.

You can cast Time Walk 2.0 on your opponents turn. In some ways it's better than Time Walk: it's conditional, but you can cast it at instant speed with minor setup of either BS or Top.

[majikal]

I can't think of a single scenario where a 3/3 flyer is bad. Why haven't they banned Razor Hippogriff yet?

Razor Hippogriff is obviously broken. You can bring Darksteel Forge back to your hand and gain nine life! That's almost ten!

[Kuma]

I think by "win more" cards, people mean cards that are good when you're ahead on board position and bad when you're behind. That doesn't sound like the kind of cards I want in my decks.

[Koby]

I think by "win more" cards, people mean cards that are good when you're ahead on board position and bad when you're behind. That doesn't sound like the kind of cards I want in my decks.

Hrmm ya I think I didn't make it clear enough. My bad - playing cards that are by nature "win more" don't belong in decks. The strategy within a game, using an optimal list, however is to use every resource you have to make sure you don't lose a game.

Example: your opponent is dead on board - Wasteland their 4th land;
Kill a blocker with your last removal spell to get them within lethal
etc

By this definition, Temporal Mastery seems like a decent inclusion for SOME decks, not all. In Lands, it might just be a dead card 80% of the time. In a Planeswalker control list, it might be exceptional. The card is hard to define its power in a vacuum.

[bruizar]

I think by "win more" cards, people mean cards that are good when you're ahead on board position and bad when you're behind. That doesn't sound like the kind of cards I want in my decks.

Time Walk is not bad when you are behind. At its worst, it's neutral.

[rufus]

What Legacy decks *do* draw heavily? Seriously, name one draw spell that's played on any sort of regular basis? ...

Dark Confidant and Ad Nauseam come to mind. (I did write 'hand filling' rather than drawing.)

On this whole concept of "win more" cards. This is probably the dumbest concept that people outside of card advantage theory. The idea that because Time Walk is at its best when you already have board presence it's not worth running is so illogical that I can't understand how anyone spouts it with a straight face. ....

As someone more eloquent than me wrote, they really ought to be called lose-more cards. A 'win-more' card is a card that is unlikely to turn a losing situation into a winning or neutral one. (For example, something like Celestial Convergence is never going to help you come from behind.) Time Walk 2.0 is only going to do that if it's a dead draw - typically because miracle is canceled.

[DragoFireheart]

Temporal Mastery is already sold out on SCGs.

lol, regardless of what you think of the card, that's still hilarious.

Dark Confidant and Ad Nauseam come to mind. (I did write 'hand filling' rather than drawing.)

Storm decks are not going to use Ad Nauseam and Temporal Mastery.

[morgan_coke]

What Legacy decks *do* draw heavily? Seriously, name one draw spell that's played on any sort of regular basis? Standstill and Ancestral Visions see marginal play, but they're not exactly common. The rest is deck manipulation. Thought Scour sees some play, but it's primarily Ponder, Brainstorm and Sensei's Divining Top. Those are cards you use to set it up. Decks that run a bit more to the controlling side still don't really run draw. I play BUG and I run Gifts Ungiven, but not a single actual "draw" spell. Just fixing cantrips.

Life from the Loam, Thoughtcast, Ad Nauseum, Dredge, Elves, Goblins, Dark Confidant, Horizon Canopy and Stoneforge Mystic would all like to wave their hands around and say hello.

[nedleeds]

Natural Order, Moat and Nether Void all see very little play.

Chains of Mephistopheles
Granger Guildmage
Shadow Guildmage
Curfew
Three Wishes
Land Equilibrium
Mana Vortex
Pongify



... i lied about Pongify.

[DrHealex]

Temporal Mastery is already sold out on SCGs.

lol, regardless of what you think of the card, that's still hilarious.

Sold out is SCG speak for, expect it to be $10 more tomorrow.

[Vacrix]

That just means there are fewer people with enough money to pick up Vexing Devils.

Verrry Nice!

[majikal]

I give you... Hellboy!

Does Aggro Loam want this guy?