If you ran Moat over Humility, how would you win? Your man-lands would be incapable of attacking.
Team ICBE
Try not to wake up on fire.
Cephalid Coliseum ftw or Engineered Explosives after I've established a lock. You have all the time in the world to win with this deck. This is the most inevitable deck I've had the pleasure of playing. If the game goes long, you win. That's all there is to it.Originally Posted by Xero
The few times I tested this deck (using Di's list, except with Constant Mist instead of Meekstone) I had lots of problems of getting Threshold. How do you guys get Threshold quickly?
Also, have you guys tested Armageddon before?
That is a horrible strategy to try to win the game. Coliseum, although a viable win condition, offers the opponent a better chance at finding answers, and using Explosives to kill your own damn permanent just so you can win is a joke. I fail to see why Moat would be used over Humility regardless, as it isn't nearly as good. Flyers still attack you, creatures still have abilities, you can't even attack....Cephalid Coliseum ftw or Engineered Explosives after I've established a lock. You have all the time in the world to win with this deck. This is the most inevitable deck I've had the pleasure of playing. If the game goes long, you win. That's all there is to it.
My current list is slightly altered from the last one posted. It actually runs both Meekstone and Constant Mists.The few times I tested this deck (using Di's list, except with Constant Mist instead of Meekstone) I had lots of problems of getting Threshold. How do you guys get Threshold quickly?
I've also at times had trouble getting to threshold. It can be a pain because it heavily relies on cards like Life from the Loam, Crop Rotation, and Intuition to get there, and should you fail to draw them you could potentially be waiting a little while depending on the situation. However, it technically isn't a huge deal, because you don't really need to use threshold cards until the end of the middle/late game, where by then you most likely would have it.
I had Devastating Dreams as a Burning Wish target a while ago, but that was it. Given the high amount of Aether Vials and Threshold decks currently, Armageddon is a bad choice as they can recover quickly. I have been, however, been interested in cards like Choke, which seem to be picking up some strength at the moment.Also, have you guys tested Armageddon before?
Di >>
- Could you describe your TarmHold match-up in detail ? If possible can you explain the threats of the different splashes (Ug, Ugr, Ugw, Ugb).
- What is your gameplan against gob ?
Won't engineered explosives usually a good answer to Aether Vials? Last time I saw your list, you were running 3 of them. What about versus non-threshold type decks? Won't Burning Wish + Devastating Dreams be slower?
I know it depends on situation to situation, but what are your usual intuition targets? Besides the tutor for 3 copies of one card, and Crucible/Life from the Loam/Academy Ruin targets, I can't really think of any other good targets.
I realize. However, I'm not going to have the opportunity to play in a competitve environment for awhile now that I'm back at school, and I want an excuse to play the moat I just came into posession for.
You are completely correct, and I would never condone trying to play moat competitively in this deck. It just doesn't work out as well.
Regardless, there are some metagames where moat is better than humility (in my mind at least). How many threatening fliers do you really see in most legacy decks? Aside from Fairy and Angel stompy, there aren't too many flying creatures I've seen in my metagames, and so moat would shut down creature combat so I can build up board advantage and lock people down.
It's not a perfect plan, or an aggressive plan, but against some decks and metagames, it's a safer plan. You are correct, humility is clearly the better choice in most cases, but moat can be a strong metagame choice for some areas, and should not be so quickly dismissed.
Random question:
has anyone seen anything from Lorwyn which might deserve a spot in the deck?
Nothing relevant really. But no hate too and no card implying graveyard hate. The main hate card is teeg and it's not really relevant. The other very good card according to me is Doran and it implies a weak manabase and it's not a real threat to us. I don't believe that gob will be strengthened neither, so it's ok according to me.has anyone seen anything from Lorwyn which might deserve a spot in the deck?
Explosives is a fine answer to Aether Vial, and yes, I currently have three of them in the deck. However, that doesn't gurantee you'll have it when you want to cast something like Armageddon, and if you don't have it, Armageddon is basically a dead card at that point.Won't engineered explosives usually a good answer to Aether Vials? Last time I saw your list, you were running 3 of them. What about versus non-threshold type decks? Won't Burning Wish + Devastating Dreams be slower?
Burning Wish + DD isn't in this deck at all, so that's all a moot point. I merely mentioned it was in the deck at one point, but it wouldn't necessarily be slower given it can be used turn 2/3, not to mention Pyroclasm at the same time.
All of that argument is irrelevant to me though, as Smokestack is superior to both of them. It kills all permanents and establishes a lock, and is brought back with Academy Ruins.
Lands. I constantly, constantly tutor for three lands. Whatever they are depends on the situation, but almost 50% of the time you'll see Intuition grabbing something like Glacial Chasm, Tabernacle, and Riftstone Portal or something. Lands are your best resources in the deck, and when you have Crucible in play, Intuition essentially turns into an overpowered Demonic Tutor.I know it depends on situation to situation, but what are your usual intuition targets? Besides the tutor for 3 copies of one card, and Crucible/Life from the Loam/Academy Ruin targets, I can't really think of any other good targets.
Not yet. Gaddok Teeg is going to be very annoying to play against though. Shuts off Humility, Smokestack, Explosives, and Chalice of the Void.has anyone seen anything from Lorwyn which might deserve a spot in the deck?
All Threshold splashes you play against the same way, barring slight, slight variations (White has StP for instance, so playing around that etc) so you go with the same approach with all of them. In this matchup you are the control deck, and play it very similar to how Landstill would play against it, but you are much more aggressive. What makes this matchup great is that you have a higher number of threats than they have answers, and you have a higher number of answers than they have actual threats.Di >>
- Could you describe your TarmHold match-up in detail ? If possible can you explain the threats of the different splashes (Ug, Ugr, Ugw, Ugb).
- What is your gameplan against gob ?
For the scenario, we'd be assuming we're using my current list:
4 Exploration
3 Crucible of Worlds
4 Intuition
3 Crop Rotation
1 Life from the Loam
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Trinisphere
3 Engineered Explosives
2 Smokestack
2 Humility
1 Constant Mists
1 Meekstone
4 Mox Diamond
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Windswept Heath
3 Tropical Island
2 Savannah
1 Academy Ruins
1 Glacial Chasm
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
1 Maze of Ith
1 Wasteland
1 Riftstone Portal
1 Nomad Stadium
1 Cephalid Coliseum
1 Horizon Canopy
2 Nantuko Monastery
1 Mishra's Factory
Sideboard:
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Meddling Mage
3 Tormod's Crypt
2 Pithing Needle
3 debatable slots
Playing against them is rather straight-forward, but can be tricky because of Daze. Although it's easy to play around Daze given the amount of mana production in the deck, often times you'll be trying to do lots of things turn 1-3 and can get caught in a situation that might be vulnerable to it. If this happens, then bait them out. Many times I will purposely play cards to bait out Daze in the early turns, and most of the time they will have to act. Because you have so many threats against them, it's difficult for them to let things slide not knowing what's in your hand. Trinisphere, Explosives, Exploration, Smokestack, etc can all be baited to Daze. Having those spells countered is a loss, but throwing them out there testes the strength of their hand, and also is a benefit if it resolves. The only spells I really play conservatively are Crucible, Intuition, Crop Rotation, and StP. I list StP in there because of the potential of Tarmogoyf to randomly kill you. But resolving Crucible and Intuition is vital, so you want to make sure they have an increased chance to resolve, giving their only out as Force of Will.
The only card that I see as an actual threat is Tarmogoyf. Nimble Mongoose could be added here as well I suppose, but a 3/3 is a slow clock giving you time to find answers. Fortunately, you have a plethora of answers. Maze of Ith, StP, Meekstone, and Explosives are all great against them, and adding Humility into the mix makes things better. Counterbalance could be considered a threat, but isn't much of an issue because they have almost no outs to 3cc and 4cc, which is where all of your real threats lie. Countering Exploration, StP, and Crop Rotation can be annoying though, but resolving the higher casting cost cards are what generally win the match.
Crop Rotation is a very important card for the matchup as well. You can live without it, but its tutoring power is a great advantage. In most cases, the first target is Academy Ruins, just so you can go unfair with Explosives and force through Crucible and Trinisphere. Resolving Crucible is huge, but they can easily win through it. Resolving Trinisphere makes life hell for them, considering you also have Wasteland, Smokestack, and Tabernacle to hold them off. The next target is probably Maze of Ith, Wasteland, or Glacial Chasm, depending on the situation. If you have Exploration and Crucible, you go find Glacial Chasm 100% of the time; it's a hardlock that they have no outs for. This doesn't apply to Wasteland builds though, so look more at Maze or Tabernacle. It's really dependant on the gamestate for something like this though.
Same with Intuition. Targets are often reliant on the situation, so it's difficult to decipher what to grab. The first one most likely goes for Academy Ruins/Life from the Loam/artifact. Whether that is Crucible, Trinisphere, Smokestack, Meekstone, or EE is up to you, depending on the game. Otherwise, it would either get 3-of of something or trip utility lands. The card is just so damn versatile in the deck it's amazing.
The only difference between the splashes though is Ug with mana disruption and UGW running StP. UG is probably the hardest of the decks because they can manage to get down early beats and back it up with mana disruption + counters. Essentially it requires a ridiculous start from them, but it happens. I list UGW only because it can remove your win conditions, which can be annoying. Playing around this is annoying as well, but not difficult. It simply requires you to save a Wasteland in play or Crop Rotation in hand.
Post-board against Threshold I bring in Chalice and something else. My board is sort of in the air right now, so I don't know everything atm, but Chalice is in there as a 4-of. I swap Explorations out for them, but depending on how many cards you board, Exploration might not be the choice. You basically play the same game as g1, but you now have additional tools for them. Chalice is a beating. However, you can also expect them to have a better game against you as well, with Ancient Grudge, Krosan Grip, Tormod's Crypt, etc. It's random what you'll run into, so sideboard in whatver you like, but just make sure the Chalices are boarded in.
General gameplan against Threshold in a nutshell:
- Force through bombs in the early game by either baiting them with other bombs or just playing them out.
- Disrupt their mana with Waste, Smokestack, and Tabernacle
- Play the control game with their measly threatbase and assume superior board position through recursion of EE or utility lands.
- Win.
The gameplan against Goblins is very simple, so I won't get into detail. You're playing the control deck. You resolve cards because they don't have counterspells. You resolve Humility and dance. Tabernacle is very fun too. Chasm is fun until it is Wasted, but you also have Constant Mists. Despite the goodies, this matchup is still roughly 55-45 to 50-50. They can randomly go broken on you and disrupt your manabase enough to cripple you. So um, play conservatively? Crop Rotation goes a long way in here to fight mana disruption and tutor.
This is really helpful, and I really appreciate the advice. I've never really been sure if I want to try to bait counters with Trinisphere on the first or second turn, and this is really helpful.
Quick question though:
Would you advise slowing your game down to play against daze and force them to use FoW, or playing into daze to disrupt their tempo the first turn or two? I'm assuming you play around daze unless you're trying to force down a bomb or some such, but I guess it could be played either way depending on your hand.
Yeah, you answered your own question there.Would you advise slowing your game down to play against daze and force them to use FoW, or playing into daze to disrupt their tempo the first turn or two? I'm assuming you play around daze unless you're trying to force down a bomb or some such, but I guess it could be played either way depending on your hand.
What about adding the White Oddesy crack land (Barb Ring, Ceph Colisieum, Nomad Statium?) for 5 life gain. It stop they burn, and with crucible/LftL you gain like 10 life a turn.
Are you referring to the Nomad Stadium, which is in the deck, or another land? Is there another land that gains life like that?What about adding the White Oddesy crack land (Barb Ring, Ceph Colisieum, Nomad Statium?) for 5 life gain. It stop they burn, and with crucible/LftL you gain like 10 life a turn.
Also if you didn't notice, that post you linked to is from June 2006.
Just wondering, out of all the play testing/tournaments you did, have you ever faced someone using Back to Basics or Blood Moon?
Yes. It sucks. Hard. You do have outs against them though. Smokestack can clearly get rid of it, but that'd be one of the last permanents they'd sacrifice, and Engineered Explosives at 3 will as well. The only way to get that however is to manage a Riftstone Portal in the graveyard or two Mox Diamonds in play. Not hard by any means, but it makes it more difficult.
Post-board there is additional removal should that nastyness show up.
EDIT: Thank you for pointing that out, Nihil. I is retarded. Also mentioned double-Mox as a means of getting around it.
Last edited by Di; 09-22-2007 at 07:51 AM.
With a Riftstone Portal in the graveyard, you don't need a Mox to blow up Blood Moon. The Moon gives you red mana, and Portal gives you both green and white.
YOU'RE GIVING ME A TIME MACHINE IN ORDER TO TREAT MY SLEEP DISORDER.
very true
Alright I'm currently in the process of making some new changes/additions to the deck.
First things first, Horn of Greed is out. Can be broken, yes, but in order to be broken you need to draw lands. I'd really prefer to have a draw engine that doesn't have other requirements. Plus, for a draw engine, 3 mana is pretty steep. I'd love to have it begin 1st/2nd turn instead, so I'm currently testing both Sylvan Library and Sensei's Divining Top in this slot, and am likely be end up running one of them.
Meekstone is also out of the deck. Insanely good in theory, but it's really a weak slot. It's useless against Goblins and other weenie decks, and it doesn't act as removal. Plus, it happens to be a completely dead draw after Humility, so I'm unsure as to what I'm going to do with this one.
I'm also most likely going to be adding another land in the deck. Lately for some reason I'm having issues hitting consistent early land drops, and it's getting ridiculous. As far as what it will be, I'm not sure. Most likely options are a 3rd Savannah, 5th fetchland, 2nd Wasteland, or Petrified Field.
This seems to mirror the results I was getting. I attributed a lot of it to my lack of play skill. Top and Library both sound like good additions, along with (potentially) Mirri's Guile? Guile accomplishes essentially the same thing, for free, starting turn one, and though it doesn't give you the potential for drawing cards, instead giving you repeatable card selection.
I like the variance though. It gives you some resiliency to Chalice and pithing needle for whatever that's worth. I'll do some testing with both of those as well, and I'll let you know what I come up with.
I had the same issues with mana problems, which is kinda funny in a land deck. However, this deck is ridiculously mana hungry, and I thought about adding one or two more in, but that costs slots for other spells. I think now that you've set the deck up the way you have now though, it's much more doable. Have you had trouble with colorscrew or just mana screw? Because, while I"m not opposed to it, I don't like the idea of wasteland. You can tutor for it when necessary, and other than that it's just...not very good I guess. It's not a bad choice, but I think you can do better.
Petrified Field has done alright in my testing. It's great for intuition piles, but it makes LftL unnecessary in those piles, and lessens the reliance on loam quite a bit. However...that's also bad, because you don't go through your deck as quickly, and because it doesn't give you the same engine. I played with it for awhile, and I think that's why I've had so much trouble with the deck. Test with it, let me know what you think. It could be really good...occasionally. However, it costs a land drop, and doesn't really do a whole lot. You have all the recursion you could want in LftL and Crucible, and this only takes away from those engines.
Savannah is the best choice I think. Stifle's running rampant where I play, and so the fetch is a bad idea for me, but Savannah's definitely doable and preferable to a lot of other choices.
For meekstone:
what about Oblivion Stone or Nevinryal's Disk (spelling?) or some other recurable artifact removal? I know you have EE, but sometimes you just need to wrath the board. It sets you back a bit too, but you can recover much more quickly through your recursion. Maybe put the singleton Pithing Needle back? It's never a dead topdeck, and gives you a hard lock against goblins and other stuff, so it might be worth it.
EDIT:
Random though: Nostalgic Dreams? Maybe a singleton?
Engine of the deck : 12
4 Intuition
4 Crop Rotation
3 Crucible of Worlds
1 Life from the Loam
Non tutorable stuff : 6
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Jotun Grunt
Artifact Toolbox : 8
1 Powder Keg
1 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Horn of Greed
1 Engineered Explosives
2 Smokestack
1 Trinisphere
1 Pithing Needle
Fast mana : 8
4 Mox Diamond
4 Exploration
Lands : 27
1 Ancient Tomb
2 Windswept Heath
2 Flooded Strand
4 Tropical Island
1 Savannah
1 Academy Ruins
1 Glacial Chasm
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
2 Maze of Ith
2 Wasteland
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Riftstone Portal
1 Nomad Stadium
1 Cephalid Coliseum
3 Horizon Canopy
1 Nantuko Monastery
1 Lonely Sandbar
Sideboard : 15
1 Tormod's Crypt
2 Counterbalance
2 Defense Grid
1 Humility
1 Jotun Grunt
3 Enlightened Tutor
3 Krosan Grip
1 Zuran Orb
1 Seal of primordium
Sensei is absolutely necessary in this deck, it allows you to scry before to choose to dredge with LftL, it also enables you to almost demonic tutor once you have crucible in play and fetches in graveyard.
Powder Keg is great because it leaves your explorations in play. As you should know exploration is the card-advantage card that is the most difficult to find. I call it card advantage because without it crucible and LftL are not really providing card-advantage. Enchantments are rarely a problem, except Leyline and Planar Void.
Jotun Grunt serves several purposes : makes an very good early blocker for 2 turns against aggro. It gives you time to find engine pieces. It deals with opponent's graveyard : ichorid, bridge, threshold creatures, survival advantage, ... In late game, it also gives you back essential cards like STP, exploration that would have been used, destroyed, discarded, counterspelled or even intuitionned. And in very late game, it ensures you not to deck yourself. However, I started with 4*grunt and have been disappointed by my ability to draw 2 very quickly. I removed 2 of them from the MD in order to include 1 additional stax and 1 trinisphere and it looked better.
I play 2 Maze MD because it was sometimes, when my opponent is playing land disruption, difficult to deal efficiently with their creatures in early game. In particular against goblins, their main threat is wasteland. The good thing is that they can't tutor for it.
Counterbalance is good agianst combo and threshold, and even better with sensei. It could even be given a try MD instead of jotun and maze is Goblins are continuing to disappear.
Defense Grid is against any kind of counterspells and also against burn because once glacial chasm recursion settled their only plan is to burn you when you recur it. An advice at this subject, is to wasteland (or ghost quarter) you chasm during your main phase and to play it back just after. Your opponent won't get the priority to burn you. The problem is that it requires you another land drop and that you need to pay the previous upkeep. Anyway burn is a very difficult MU because they often play price of progress MD.
Krosan grip against any graveyard hate : planar voir, leyline and tormod. It deals easily with deeds that are waiting the next turn to destroy your crucible. Krosan Grip against counterbalance too.
Enlightened tutor. Tutors a bit everything in your deck but it's very poor against counterspells, chalices and counterbalances. I enter them as soon as I see my opponent is not playing blue or chalice.
The rest of my SB are quite obvious tool cards to tutor.
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