[Deck] Eva White - B/W Suicide

[Clark Kant]

I altered the opening list as follows...

-1 Swamp
-2 Oblivion Ring
+1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
+2 Snuff Out

I did this because Oblivion Ring proved to be overkill. Thoughtseize and Vindicate were more than apt in dealing with problem cards.

Snuff Out just worked better with Negator as well.

My list now looks like this...

1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Swamp
4 Polluted Delta
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Scrubland
4 Wasteland
4 Dark Ritual

4 Thoughtseize
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Sinkhole
4/3 Vindicate
2/3 Snuff Out
2 Swords to Plowshares

3 Nantuko Shade
4 Tombstalker
4 Phyrexian Negator
4 Hypnotic Spectar

What do you guys think?

I dropped the O. Rings, as I found that Thoughtseize and Vindicate were more than apt in dealing with problem cards.

I really think this is an improvement over Eva Green unless your meta is one that is hostile towards Negators (ie. burn is still played). Negator isn't really a problem against aggro control decks as the deck itself has a multitude of ways to deal with potential blockers. But it is a problem against burn decks.

Fortunately, ironically thanks to Goyf, fewer decks run burn than ever before, as Burn is no longer good enough to deal with the most popular creature in the format, and I find Negator to be very good these days.

Goyf as good as it is, is on average slower than Negator, and somewhat antisynergic with Tombstalker.

You can cast Negator of a turn one Ritual and beat for 5 on the turn two.

The earliest Goyf hits is on turn three and usually at best for 3 damage.

Yes, without ritual, a Negator on turn three ends up doing the same amount of damage as a Goyf on turn two. But, the Negator played on turn three, means that you were able to cast a Hymn or Sinkhole on turn two, which is the critical/optimal turn to play Sinkhole/Hymn.

Plus Goyf is somewhat antisynergic with Tombstalker as well.

Vindicate is so much better than Seal it's not even funny. Vindicate not only hits everything Seal does but also deals with opposing Goyfs when you don't have a Swords/Snuff Out handy and best of all supplements your Sinkholes and Wastelands to nuke your opponents mana base and screw then over completely.

Even if your meta is one that is hostile to Negator, if you are willing to up the Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth count, the deck could well support Ashenmoor Gouger in place of Negator. It's not as good, but it's an option nonetheless.

Another advantage to build this deck is that you can relatively cheaply transform it into B/W Pox...

+ 3 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
+ 3 Mishra's Factory
+ 4 Smallpox
+ 4 Pox
+ 3 Crucible of Worlds
+ 3 Ghostly Prison
+ 2 Rancid Earth
+ 1 Vindicate

- 4 Dark Ritual
- 4 Hypnotic Specter
- 4 Phyrexian Negator
- 3 Nantuko Shade
- 3 Snuff Out
- 2 Swords to Plowshares
- 1 Thoughtseize
- 1 Swamp

So you get, two solid decks for the price of one.

[Kadaj]

It's difficult for me as an observer to gauge the impact of not having Goyf in a deck like this. It is fairly obvious that Goyf is not an automatic inclusion in every deck, but I do feel one has to think long and hard about whether or not it's a good idea to exclude him when he so perfectly fits the deck's strategy.

In reality, the major reason to play this deck over Eva Green has to be Vindicate. Unless Vindicate is utterly amazing and a huge component of this deck's success, something I cannot validate because I have not tested the list, there is no reason to play white over green.

Clark, my real question is this: In your testing has Vindicate proven so effective that it warrants the inclusion of white over green entirely on its own?

[Clark Kant]

Absolutely. Vindicate is well worth the white splash.

There is a reason that Eva Green opted to include 4 Wasteland and 4 Sinkhole.

The tempo you gain from land destruction, and from mana screwing your opponent is enormous.

Vindicate supplements both cards perfectly and really increases your ability to mana screw your opponents.

There are several games where Vindicate is the last piece of the puzzle in mana screwing your opponent whereas, had it been Seal of Primordium, the opponent could have made a recovery. In fact, I believe that much of the sucess that Deadguy had several years ago came because of it's 12 land destruction cards, rather than on the back of it's threats, which in all honesty, I found to be rather weak.

In additon to this, Vindicate can take out a potential blocker when one of your 4 dedicated creature kill cards aren't handy, something that Seal of Primordium was never able to do.

In fact, there were several situations where Seal is worthless and just a dead card in your hand, and there's even a few matchups where Seal has no targets at all. Vindicate is never dead.

So yes, I absolutely think Vindicate is an enormous advantage of Seal of Primordium.

[raharu]

Well, 'Goyf isn't exactly terrible with Tombstalker, in all actuallyity, it stays rather large from the OP's grave because of the sickening discard suite you are (or at least should be) running. Go look at the recent arguments in the Eva Green thread.

Vindicate > Seal of Primodrium? Well, Yeah, obviously, although wasteland + Sinkhole should be enough that you can ise Vindicate for other, more important threats.

Your 'Goyf<Gator argument isn't really valid. In order for 'Gator to hit first/ harder, you rely on having a D. rit, which isn't really that likely. Then you rely on A) them not dropin a creature or B) you having removal you can actually play on turn two, i.e. not O. Ring or Vindicate. At any rate, I'd run Bunnies or something akin to it before I bothered with a suicide white build. They can protect 'Gator and use it way better than your list can.

[Clark Kant]

Yes, sometimes 4 Wastelands and 4 Sinkhole is enough to manascrew your opponent, but sometimes it's not, and it's those times that you'll be very happy to have Vindicate to ensure your opponent can't make a recovery.

I never said that Goyf was terrible with Tombstalker. I said that it is somewhat antisynergic with Tombstalker, which is true. Tombstalker often empties out your graveyard and can turn your Goyfs back into a 3/4 on average (or even a 2/3), which is not all impressive. Goyf also usually starts out about that size in the early game as well.

So early on, Goyf is usually a 2/3 or 3/4, then by midgame it grows to a 4/5 or 5/6. But when you cast Tombstalker, it often times does go back down to a 3/4.

Negator by comparison is always an impressive 5/5 trampler, though I fully admit, a risky one.

That doesn't change the fact that Goyf is a fantastic card. But I don't think it's fair to Negator is strictly inferior either.

That's entirely dependent on board position, and what your opponent is playing.

P.S. What the hell is bunnies? Is it a cute nickname for fish or something?

[raharu]

Nay sir, Bunnies is a CaNGD champion from years past. I'll go dig up the thread. It's BW agro-disruption like Suicide, but, well, different. Heavier white and more creature-tempo oriented than spell-tempo oriented.

EDIT: http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3262
That.

[Clark Kant]

Carnophage! Sarcomancy! Isamaru! Rotting Giant!

0 Duress/Thoughtseize
0 Hymn
0 Hypnotic Specter
0 LD Spells
and very little disruption of any sort.

Whats the point of running black if you don't bother to run much disruption!

No offense but that list looks awful. It may have worked two years ago but the meta has evolved since then.

Whats the point of wasting precious card space on 2/2 creatures that are at best 10 turn clocks, but usually just die to every creature in the format.

I suggest reading Legend's Suicide Black Primer for almost a decade ago if you can find it. It's a truly excellent read. It may be old, but the principles that underlie it, and the points he makes on why Carnophage and Sarcomancy suck are even more true today than they were back then.

You are far better off running cards like Tombstalker that are actual threats and put your opponent on a fast clock.

This way, you can devote the slots you save to playing disruption.

About the only card I like in the list is Mother of Runes and possibly Jitte. I already mentioned Mother of Runes in my opening post. It's a solid way to protect your threats, esp Negator, and it can chump Goyf all day long, but I just don't see what the list can cut to make room for it.

[Clark Kant]

Eva Green has no outs, none what so ever against a Mystic Enforcer, or even an opposing Tombstalker. All it's removal is dead against it.

A resolved Mystic Enforcer (has Pro Black) and Eva Green might as well pack up and go home.

But with Eva White, you have diversity in your removal options, such as Swords to Plowshares and Oblivion Ring. And Vindicate hits black creatures that Snuff Out doesn't.

[Isamaru]

... you're forgetting that Snuff Out is free (5 life), and has a CMC of 4.

You shouldn't be comparing the decks when they have different strategies.

[raharu]

Obviously the deck would need some changes, and I've been mulling more recent lists around, but the archtype is stll very viable. Take an oldschool build tuned for a combo metagame (i.e. more discard), modernize it, and it's quite powerful. Mana disruption is overkill most of the time anyway if they can't hold anything relevant in thier hand, and it eats slots for more threats/ acceleration (at least it takes Chrome Mox slots in Bunnies).

[Clark Kant]

Isamaru, that's why the deck runs both Swords and Snuff Out, because they supplement each other.

If the only creature kill option you have is Snuff Out (Eva Green) then you are screwed when your opponent casts a Mystic Enforcer as he is pro black, flys and will singlehandedly block all your threats and win the game for them. By running Swords to supplement Snuff Out, you have an out against him.

The same applies for any black creature as well really, as Snuff Out can't deal with black threats, but Mystic Enforcer is the one the deck is most vulnerable for.

[Clark Kant]

Here's my current build, if you're interested...

1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Swamp
4 Polluted Delta
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Scrubland
4 Wasteland
4 Dark Ritual

4 Thoughtseize
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Sinkhole
3 Vindicate
3 Snuff Out
3 Swords to Plowshares

3 Nantuko Shade
4 Tombstalker
4 Phyrexian Negator
4 Hypnotic Spectar

Between the games you win by not letting your opponent keep a single land on the table and the ones you win by seperating them from every single relevent threat, the deck feels absolutely broken in half to me every time I play it.

[electrolyze]

okay, because my main deck at this moment is eva green and i always played bw deadguy ale i wanted to give it a shot.

fo my list i just took the eva gren shel and replaced the green cards with white ones becasue it is already proven eva green's shell is the best suicide and tempo based atm.

here's the list:

4xhypnotic specter
4xtombstalker
4xnantuko shade
3xjotun grunt

4xthougthseize
4xhymn to tourach
4xsinkhole
4xVINDICATE, i think this is the card that is better in eva white then seal in eva green but for the rest, i think eva green is way better.

4xritual
4xsnuff out

21 land, same as in eva but then with 3 scrubs

i dont play stp because its still a tempo based deck and snuff out is free and dont give your oppo live wich slows you down.

i play 3 grunts and 4 vindicates instead of the eva green's 4 goyf and 3 seal because 4 grunt is way too much too be consistent.

i think this deck plays fun but still goyf over all the white cards in this deck thats why i preer eva green, but i dont say this deck is weak, its really a strong build i think.

[Clark Kant]

That's a cool build.

I do think it's a mistake to use the identical shell of Eva Green in the white splash though.

Swords is a 1cc answer to any goyfs and creatures they play. You can easily cast it alongside a Shade or even Tombstalker.

Also playing a full four Snuff Out maindeck opens you up to massive lifeloss, and multiple dead cards in the mirror matchup.

So I see no reason not to play 3 Snuff Out and 3 Swords in the white shell of the deck, effectively giving you 13-14 noncreature basaed maindeck answers to opposing Goyfs, Dreadnoughts and other potential blockers, the same number of answers to Goyf as colored mana sources played in Fairie Stompy and Dragon Stompy!

I also think Negator or even Ashenmoor Ghoul (if you hate Negator) is superior to Jotun Grunt in a deck that plays 4 Tombstalker. Both cards can be played off a turn one Dark Ritual too. But Grunt is solid at dealing with Goyfs and Tombstalkers so I may be wrong, or perhaps it should be in the sideboard versus threshold, the mirror matchup and against Ichorid and such.

[Clark Kant]

I was interested in trying out the Servant + Grindstone combo into a sui black shell. Disruptive discard and tutoring goes very well with this combo.

Here is a quick untested thrown together build, it clearly needs to be optimized...

1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Swamp
4 Polluted Delta
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Scrubland
4 Wasteland
4 Dark Ritual

4 Enlightened Tutor
4 Thoughtseize
3 Duress/Hymn to Tourach
3 Grindstone
2 Snuff Out
2 Swords to Plowshares
2 Tainted Pact/Beseech the Queen

3 Nantuko Shade
4 Painter's Servant
4 Hypnotic Spectar
4 Tombstalker

The plan IS to beat the crap out of your opponent. The combo is the back up plan should that original plan fail.

Or another way to look at it, is this is a combo deck, but with an extremely strong aggro backup to distract your opponent or win through a Stifle/Gaea's Blessing.

The fact is, this deck can support both the combo and aggro routes very well. It has more than enough tools that it can consistently go with either goal in mind.

That kind of flexibility is hard to come by and in my opinion undervalued.

The one thing I will change with the list, is that I will add a singleton Lurebound Scarecrow (or Phyrexian Warbeast or Sarcomancy or Bitterblossom or Engineered Explosives or Jitte) to the list to grab with Enlightened Tutor in a pinch.

This is because Lurebound Scarecrow is a very strong and solid beater in this deck. And it can be tutored up with Enlightened Tutor should the combo route fail you thanks to an Extripate or something. Thus, the E. Tutors never become dead cards.

I didn't want to use the deadguy shell because the deadguy shell is slow, sucky and largely defunct imho.

As nice as Persecute is with a Servant on the board. It can be weak without a Servant since so many decks run upwards of three colors. And it's pretty mana intensive. I just felt Duress/Hymn was generally more disruptive.

It was important to me that the deck retained the traditional brokeness of Suicide Black. The combo is there as a backup plan, but one that you often draw into and resolve while your opponents are busy worrying about your other threats.

I'm not sure what to use as the two of tutor. Beseech is perfect but it costs a lot of mana.

Tainted Pact has the bonus of being cheaper and being an instant.

So at the end of your opponents turn, you can cast Tainted Pact, and try to tutor into either Enlightened Tutor or your second combo piece. Enlightened Tutor is an instant as well so you could cast it immediatley after too, and thus draw the card during the start of your turn. And if you have neither combo piece in hand, Pact at the end of your opponent's turn into a Thoughtseize, or more beats is a solid play as well.

[Clark Kant]

I recently won a local tourney with this deck. And LD (thanks to Vindicate and Wasteland esp) played a key role in this win in a number of matchups.

In short, I'm happy to be playing white for Vindicate.

For the tourney, I replaced Negator with Ashenmoor Gouger as Gouger proved to be surprisingly solid in the deck.

I reflected this change in my opening thread as well.

[Clark Kant]

Vindicate still proves to be a huge bomb in this deck.

I've replaced Ashenmoor with Bitterblossom and I find it a great substitute for Tarmogoyf.

You can pump out 3-4 or so 1/1 flyers to beat them over the head with.

And then every 1/1 you create after that can be used to chump block Tarmogoyf until they die.

The fact that Goyf can be chumped so easily by a 1/1 is awesome.

I'm now considering playing 2 Contamination MD. I think it deserves SB slots atleast maybe.