If you need to beat opponents decrees in the mirror then just play stifle. It's better. When you play at a serious tournament, other then the jank you play against normally, play those.
In my testing i have found Zuran Orb very useful in one of the hardest matchup : Burn.
It has good sinergy with crucible, allows life gain recursion, which is also useful to slow down goblins and aggro decks.
I often feel the need for life gain when playing this deck against any burn/quick aggro deck... Landstill has answers to everything, why no life gain?
I think most lanstill players board in pulse for life gain; zuran orb is cheaper, weaker but has sinergy with crucible; which of the two is better?
I do not maindeck Crucible because of my aggro-based meta, and so Zuran Orb is not too hot for me. Plus, pulse gains more life in a shorter amount of turns (without the huge setback of saccing all of your lands) and so I prefer pulse in my meta. In a control meta you could sideboard 2-3 orb to fight off good aggro that is not very common. Finally, Orb is vulnerable to artifact hate, which everyone and their mother sideboards (Disenchant AND Pithing Needle) and so it would be very, very, very, very easily shut down. Finally, Orb is card disadvantage, while pulse almost always offers card parity. My vote goes to Pulse, in the end.
Pulse of the Fields>Zuran Orb
Sphere of Law>Zuran Orb
Cop:Red>Zuran Orb
Chill>Zuran Orb
This has been gone over before. I think it was around page 9-10 where we discussed the various options against Red strategies.
On a similar note, is there anything even left to discuss about this deck? I think most of us realize that FoW is good in Landstill, and that Mana Leak is better than every 3cc counter etc. etc. etc.
I suppose we could discuss why not Forcing a Lackey on turn 1 is bad because you have a Wrath, or because you think Forcing a Lackey is card disadvantage. Forcing a Lackey is almost always CA for you. They can drop a Matron, Ringleader, or Jeeky from the Lackey and it's instant CA for them. Even if all they do is drop SGC, Warchief or Piledriver, it gives them insane Tempo. Not to mention the fact that if they get off a Wasteland or an active Port you're Wrath is pushed off 1-2 turns, and even more if you don't hit all 5-6 land drops.
If $T4KS becomes a metagame concern we'll have to deal with that and fit in some better hate in the SB as that match can be difficult to win.
What do most people see Goblins doing nowadays concerning Port, SB Pithing Needle and the White splash for Disenchant. I've started boarding Teferi's Response to combat all the Ports I see. It's also great in the mirror to counter an early Waste or a Swords. The reason I want to get input on Needle vs. Disenchant is because I think Cop:Red is better in a vacuum against Goblins and burn for that matter. If they're all going to be playing Needle obviously Sphere is better. If they're playing Disenchant now I'd rather just have the Cops. Cop:Red doesn't compete with Wrath on turn 4 and is much less of a tempo loss if they do get rid of it.
Card advantage isn't really anything remotely resembling the sacred cow it's made out to be. It's not a matter of "he who dies with the most friggin' cards in hand wins," it's a matter of "he who dies loses." Your opponent will probably end up accelerating out Matron or Ringleader or whatever, but at that point it's acceleration that's providing uncounterable card advantage. The problem with the blanket statement of "Forcing Lackey is CA" is, first, you're trading two cards for one, which isn't netting you cards any way you cut it (Remember, you still have to actually counter that Matron or Ringleader somewhere down the line) but rather is slowing your opponent down to a more manageable tempo that you can handle.
The contention I have is that you don't need to care about the Lackey because you're just going to murder it and it's friends on turn four or five anyway, and you want to save your Force for the relevant cards they'll play once you've made your stabilization attempt.
If you're playing such that Wasteland is setting your Wrath back a turn, you're probably playing wrong. That sounds harsh, but it's basically turned out true in testing both Extended last season, Legacy, and 1.5 before that.
I'm also still not totally sure FoW is right, but that's something to be discussed when I get around to testing it more. Mana Leak as a tertiary counter, however, is something I want to debate. The card is almost always dead in the late game. Your early game isn't nearly as much of an issue so much as the midgame once you're fighting to stabilize. Plus, once you have stabilized, Mana Leak often won't keep a problem spell off the board since it's so late, and you're back to fighting again. Forbid, however, is very nutty at keeping your opponent down, and is still good in the mid and even early game.
Teferi's Response is the actual nut high against Rishadan Port, Wasteland, Plow, Factory removal, and everything in between. Seriously, I was running like three or four maindeck in the old format because it was so good in the mirror and aggro matchups. There's less room now because of needing to run more Wrath effects main, but I'm tinkering with the Vengeance and Disenchant count to fit some.
What exactly does Pithing Needle hose in your deck?
Circle Red is inferior to Sphere of Law because once you play Sphere of Law, Goblins has five or six relevant cards in their deck. Piledrivers, Pyromancers, and Kings. Realize too that King isn't very amazing for the red men to be running, so it's more like five. You, however, have all your Plows, your permission, your Wraths, and your Disenchants for Vial. Turn four Wrath turn five go turn six Sphere go counter your Disenchant effect is almost invariably a game win. Circle ties up your mana, leaves you vulnerable to flurries of burn, and leaves you less counter mana if your opponent ends up playing Disenchant or Needle or whatever nonred hate they have. Plus, Needle kolds it.
When in doubt, mumble.
When in trouble, delegate.
Anyone got a good idea for a GP Philly sideboard? I thought about it and realized this tourney is gonna have people from all over the place so we can't really rely on just our meta strategies. I'm trying to think of a SB that can cover a whole range of decks that may pop up:
3 Stifle
4 Meddling Mage
4 CoP: Red / Chill (haven't decided yet)
2 Disenchant (running 2 MD with 2 M. Tutors MD)
2 Reverence?
I really have no idea. SB's were never my specialty (neither was any other aspect of MtG deckbuilding). I was thinking something like this or maybe 5 3-slotters. Any ideas?
Originally Posted by FakeSpam
The point of a sideboard is to have a coherent gameplan for the second and third games. Don't have fifteen slots and pick and choose; test your deck and figure out what cards you would add (Make sure you know what you will cut!) if you had infinite room. Do this for the decks you expect to see most. Say, Burn, High Tide, the mirror, Goblins, and Angel Stompy. Once you have that list, see what kind of tweaks you could make to save slots. For instance, Chill is good vs Burn and Goblins, but Sphere of Law is better against Goblins, and is still pretty strong against Burn, and then you'd open up slots for your other matchups. Don't just be like "well these seem good" and just run a random pile.
When in doubt, mumble.
When in trouble, delegate.
I don't see a huge use for Stifle. Meddling Mage *kinda* goes against what this deck is good at, and that is not protecting permenents (or rather, not having to, and thus having a nice advantege). COP Red and Chill are so situational, COP is bad against Goblins because it really isn't helping you win or controling the game. Sphere of Law is much better IMHO. As far as Chill, it can be played around via Lackey and/or Aether Vial, and while it's always nice to have blue spells, I would again suggest the Sphere. I wouldn't bother with more then 3 Disenchant post-board. Also, Mystical Tutor? Bad choice, my friend. I did test it a little, but quickly dismissed the idea, as I always wished it was actually the card I tutored for instead of just skipping a draw. As far as Reverence... I don't think I need to go there. It just sucks, big time. Moat would be better, although not playing bad 2WW casting enchantments would be best.
As far as good ideas for a GP Philly sideboard... I don't know if mine is good or not, but here is what I would run, if I actually played Landstill there :D
3 Sphere of Law - Goblins, Burn
1 Disenchant - Angel Stompy, Survival
3 Pulse of the Forge - Aggro, Angel Stompy, Burn, Goblins
2 Arcane Laboratory - Belcher, Iggy-pop, Solidarity, other combo
2 Rule of Law - See Arcane Laboratory
1 Crucible of Worlds - Mirror, decks with non-basics galor
1 Eternal Dragon - Control, Mirror
2 Tefari's Response* - Anything with Port and Wasteland, Mirror
*Subject to change, this is one of the more felxible spots in the deck. It owns Wasteland and Rishadan Port, and helps in the mirror when they have Crucible, alot of times it is just what I need to dig out of it.
I'm currently advocating the Red "splash" (although most think it changes how the deck plays, including me). You should check the thread in the Open forum if you havn't already.
Not only Wasteland but now 3-4 Rishadan Ports too. Also I'm not really sure what you mean when you say that someone is playing wrong if a Waste sets their Wrath back a turn. Almost all Landstill decks play 9 virtual basics, (5 real, 4 fetch) meaning over twice the land in the deck is nonbasic and vulnerable to Waste. Port can also make it difficult not only to get to the requisite 4 mana, but also cut off double white much more easily.
If you're saving the Force for what they play after you Wrath, then all you have to control the board from turns 1-3 is STP and Factory. Using Factory that early against Goblins almost assures its destruction and negates the whole point of the Wrath first gameplan. So it seems like you're relying only on STP to save you from Lackey. But then if you had STP in hand when they played Lackey 1st turn you wouldn't think about Forcing it. Correct me if I'm wrong but it seems like you're letting them have free reign until the turn you get to a main phase with 4 land with 2 white sources. Goblins can do nasty things before that happens.
If you could explain what usually happens in the aforementioned situation(s) for you we could understand your point better.
Not only Wasteland but now 3-4 Rishadan Ports too. Also I'm not really sure what you mean when you say that someone is playing wrong if a Waste sets their Wrath back a turn. Almost all Landstill decks play 9 virtual basics, (5 real, 4 fetch) meaning over twice the land in the deck is nonbasic and vulnerable to Waste. Port can also make it difficult not only to get to the requisite 4 mana, but also cut off double white much more easily.
I guess I hadn't realized it was so widely agreed upon that Sphere is better then CoP. I thought people started talking about it just because of Needle.
Well I guess your basic count might be low if you're still playing Conclave for some reason, otherwise it's pretty fine.
Basically you don't Force a Lackey if you have Counterspell and Wrath and don't have like, double Tundra or something similarly obnoxious in your hand, because, well, it's not that big of a threat. I'm actually not 100% sure if I'd Plow a Lackey over, say, Piledriver or something. I probably would, but it'd depend on my hand.
Also realize you don't need to "control the board" immediately unless your opponent is like "derf derf dubs Piledriver beat face" in which case, yeah, you're not in good shape, but that happens some very small percent of the time. People seem to think Goblins is going to kill you on turn four unless you do something about it, and that's really just not that true, particularly with Counterspell and Plow in your deck.
When in doubt, mumble.
When in trouble, delegate.
[quote="etakspeelstae"]I wouldn't put Dragon in the SB. It's just not gamebreaking. The deck you're bringing it in against has 4x 1cc permanent answers to it and many more non permanent answers to it. DoJ is much more powerful. Doing it at eot eliminates Wrath and Vengeance for at least a turn, and STP is crap against it. After board they should have boarded out most Wraths anyway making DoJ alot safer.
For most people the Pulse of choice is of the Fields.
One thing I'd like to see is a couple of Crypts in there. It can deal with a variety of decks, ATS, RGSA, all threshold decks and even in the mirror to stop Dragon and slow opposing Crucibles. The most important reason for it is it slows down Birdshit and GRO to a manageable speed. I've been seeing less and less Survival but it's great against them, killing Squee, Anger and Genesis. A big threat a turn isn't good for the health of the Landstill player.
If you're worried about the mirror 2x Deep Analysis is good.
It's not even necessarily about having total control over the board, but all the cards they're up on you by the time you Wrath and all the damage dealt already. Lackey into Ringleader essentially negates the 4th turn Force. If you let the Lackey go unmolested it can do sick things.
1st turn Lackey
2nd turn Matron fetching Ringleader
3rd turn Ringleader netting x Goblins and that much more gas after the Wrath.
That's even a fairly mediocre hand that is pretty good for them. There's other reasons than the ones stated to Force a 1st turn Lackey. If you can Force it and then drop a Standstill you're in great position.
Even if you don't play Conclave, you've still got 12 nonbasics which is half the land.
I suppose you could drop Conclave and Waste for a more stable manabase. You'd probably want to drop Crucible then too for a few Teferi's Responses. If Goblins maintains its popularity this could be a great strategy. Response wrecks their LD. It seems like this would be too weak against the mirror though.
[quote="Destavi"]LOL, yes I meant Fields. The Eternal Dragons are really good in the mirror, but I never cast them. They are really good at setting up Decree of Jutice, which I already run 3 of maindeck.I wouldn't put Dragon in the SB. It's just not gamebreaking. The deck you're bringing it in against has 4x 1cc permanent answers to it and many more non permanent answers to it. DoJ is much more powerful. Doing it at eot eliminates Wrath and Vengeance for at least a turn, and STP is crap against it. After board they should have boarded out most Wraths anyway making DoJ alot safer.
For most people the Pulse of choice is of the Fields.
One thing I'd like to see is a couple of Crypts in there. It can deal with a variety of decks, ATS, RGSA, all threshold decks and even in the mirror to stop Dragon and slow opposing Crucibles. The most important reason for it is it slows down Birdshit and GRO to a manageable speed. I've been seeing less and less Survival but it's great against them, killing Squee, Anger and Genesis. A big threat a turn isn't good for the health of the Landstill player.
If you're worried about the mirror 2x Deep Analysis is good.
Double post merged - Frogboy
It's not even necessarily about having total control over the board, but all the cards they're up on you by the time you Wrath and all the damage dealt already. Lackey into Ringleader essentially negates the 4th turn Force. If you let the Lackey go unmolested it can do sick things.
1st turn Lackey
2nd turn Matron fetching Ringleader
3rd turn Ringleader netting x Goblins and that much more gas after the Wrath.
That's even a fairly mediocre hand that is pretty good for them. There's other reasons than the ones stated to Force a 1st turn Lackey. If you can Force it and then drop a Standstill you're in great position.
Even if you don't play Conclave, you've still got 12 nonbasics which is half the land.
I suppose you could drop Conclave and Waste for a more stable manabase. You'd probably want to drop Crucible then too for a few Teferi's Responses. If Goblins maintains its popularity this could be a great strategy. Response wrecks their LD. It seems like this would be too weak against the mirror though.
Well, as I said with the flexible spots, you can put whatever in there to deal with your metagame. There's 2 Survival decks here (out of something like average 20 people) and it all depends on if they show up or not. My metagame is very competitive, with lots of Soidarity, Goblins, and Landstill making up a huge margin of decks, so that's what I need to focus on after the first few rounds.
Hi all,
My sideboard contains:
4 Meddling Mage
4 Sphere of Law
4 Blue Elemental Blast
2 Disenchant
1 Crucible of Worlds
The Mages come in against combo matchups. Most of the combo players will get rid of all their creature removal which makes it easier for the Mages to stick around.
The Spheres and the BEB are all for the goblin matchup. IMHO you HAVE to stop first turn Lackey! As has been mentioned before, if you can keep Sphere on the board there are like 5 cards in the Goblin deck that can hurt you. Although BEB can't touch Piledriver it makes sure you can keep your Swords to Plowshares for the critter. I know 8 cards is a lot to side in but I feel it's necessary to improve your odds. I take out:
- 2 Crucible
- 2 Standstill (you cannot always play them against the green men)
- 1 Decree of Justice
- 1 Forbid
- 2 Fact or Fiction
I know most of you don't play with Forbid nor with the Facts but I consider them more then powerful enough to play them main deck. The only matchup I don't want them is against Goblins!
I prefer 1 Forbid over 1 Mana Leak and I still play 2
Nevinyrral's Disk over any of the alternatives. I also have two Disenchants main deck.
The lonely Crucible is for the mirror but it could easily, and maybe preferably, become an extra Pulse of the Fields. Pulse of the Fields is amazing against so many decks it's scary. It's only bad in the control/combo matchup where you want the extra disenchants and the Mages. Right now I only have one Pulse main deck but I am thinking about changing one of the Facts into a second Pulse.
Odd mute.
I think this'll be my sideboard for the GP:
4 chill
3 sphere of law
3 Tormod's crypt
2 Decree
2 disenchant (running 2 main)
1 crucible (running 2 main)
I mostly expect to see survival variants, gobbos, and landstill, as well as the other jank that will undobtedly show up. If solidarity seems to be a growing concern, and it seems like it'll have a big turnout, I may run meddling mage or arcane lab instead of the crypts and the lone crucible. Only time will tell.
I opted for pulse MB in place of a 3d disenchant, as I'm running mysticals, and it always seems to be a good option. Plus, it gives me a bit of an edge game 1 vs. burn.
AKA rsaunder
[quote:sig_uid=\"Peter_Rotten\"]WTF? Is Diablo a little light in the loafers? Not that there is anything wrong with that.
[/quote:sig_uid]
I would build a sideboard something like this:
4 Sphere of Law
3 Crucible of Worlds
1 Faerie Conclave
3 Pulse of the Fields
4 Meddling Mage
Sphere of Law is in there for the Goblins and burn matchup, and its virtues have been discussed to death.
Crucible of Worlds is currently Sideboarded in my deck, however, I am probably moving them to the maindeck in place of Wrath #4 and Vengeance #3, which will go to the sideboard in their place.
The Faerie Conclave is the 4th one in my decklist, and it is there for the Control matchup, whether it be against Tog, Landstill, or some other deck. 10 uncounterable win conditions that can recur are some good against many control decks now, but if the meta continues to progress the way it seems to be, this Conclave will be all but useless.
The 3 Pulses are my other hate for Aggro decks in general, and I have found them to be awesome and ridiculous in every case.
The Meddling Mages are to fight combo and randomness, because Mages against decks like Solidarity, Tendrils, Belcher, and other combo decks are often times GG or close to it.
Now, on to what I think is the most important issue currently facting Landstill:
From what I see about the current path of the Metagame, it seems that Control/Combo is becoming very popular as an archetype to explore. If this is the case, our measly 8-counter defense is not sufficient to save us from this archtype, which can draw more cards and often times provide a greater or equal number of counters to us. If we were to drop cards like sweepers to add more hard counters, we would worsen our unstable matchup against Goblins and other strong aggro, which are equally as popular. To maintain our viability in a sea of decks that can out-draw, out-counter, and out-race us, we need to fight back, and not with a reactive element.
I propose that we explore combination/fast kills that could fit into our deck without requiring us to change too much of the deck.
Obviously, the kill would need to be small, either a 2-card combo or a 3-card combo whose 3rd piece works fine on its own and contributes to our gamplan.
Possibilities along with their pros and cons:
Draco/Blinkmoth Infusion-Erratic Explosion
Pros: 2 Card Combo, finishes the game with one 3 mana spell
We already run Brainstorm, an important piece of this combo
We already run Man-lands, who can deal the damage to get them to 14-16 life
Some people (not I) run Mystical Tutor, which sets up Infusion/Explosion very well
Cons: Requires a tertiary color that not everyone runs
Destabilizes the manabase if you do splash it (however, you might be able to get away with 1-2 Volcanics+Crucible to keep them in play)
Takes up 6-8 Slots + Mystical tutor, less if you want to decrease the consistency
Other: Makes Sensei's Divining Top an attractive card, and the Top has synergy with Standstill and the no-destructable-permanents strategy
Flame Fussilade-Time Vault
Pros: Instantly wins no matter how dreadful your situation is
Can benefit from the inclusion of MD Enlightened Tutor, which some players have had success with
Cons: Requires a red splash (see previous proposal for why this isn't great)
Costs 6 mana which means you aren't going to push for a turn 3 kill
Cards are useless on their own
All in all, seems not-so-great in the deck
Exalted Angel
Pros: One card that gives you a better matchup against aggro decks because it is maindeck lifegain+fast clock
It is on-color
It is a really good card on its own, so it is rarely a dissappointing draw
Cons: Easily dealt with because it is a creature, and it is especially vulnerable when morphed
Doesn't really fit with our strategy of wince-free Wraths and Vengeances
Other: Some people run this and like it, but in the past it has been a meta call. Now, with a fast clock more important, this could become an important card in the deck.
Those are the only faster win conditions I can think of off the top of my head. Discuss the future of Landstill.
No way. Never. Angel is already in my Sideboard, but combo-kills DON't, I repeat, DO NOT work with Landstill. Why? Because it's LandSTILL. That means you run StandSTILL. Get it? You don't play Standstill and sit there waiting for your combo-kill. I mean it can help your aggro match, but you already stomp on them. And against Solidarity, you would have to board out your draw engine, to prevent them from just going off in resposne to you trying to get your combo off.
I'm not saying don't explore combo-control decks, just don't use Standstill or a Landstill base. I already posted a UR Flame Vault in the Developmental Forum, go post there (please :D )
Sorry if I'm coming off harsh. It just had to be said. :;):
Agreed. Transformational sideboards are cool, but do not belong in landstill. Boarding in 4 exhalted angels is about the extent that I would change my gameplan, because after that, you're going to have about half a hardcore control deck, and half a mediocre combo deck.
AKA rsaunder
[quote:sig_uid=\"Peter_Rotten\"]WTF? Is Diablo a little light in the loafers? Not that there is anything wrong with that.
[/quote:sig_uid]
Yeah, I bring in 3 Exalteds to speed up my Solidarity clock so I don't get fucking owned like usual :D
Wouldn't Pyrostatic Pillar be a good Sideboard choice for U/R and U/R/W Landstill against Solidarity/Spring Tide?
I've made some good results with pillar in an aggro-control deck in vintage. I know the whole legacy isn't vintage stuff, but basically solidarity/spring tide is almost the same deck in both formats...
I have tested my U/W/R Landstill quite a bit, and pillar almost completely shuts down storm combo from going off (and even wishing for a bounce spell deals 4 damage to the combo player), thus being a definite must counter threat. Angel doesn't seem to be such a good clock against combo, with the life gain being absolutely unimportant in this match up.
Uh, no. Pillar is probably one of the worse cards against them. Sirocco is 8 million times better. With a SLOOOOOW clock, Pillar is very easily played around. I just board in REB and Angel in URW Landstill, and it improves the match up alot.
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