(Archive) [DTW] Aggro Loam

[Jujuhawk]

Wish for a bounce spell, bounce, win.

Basically you bank on chalice and them not drawing wish.

[arsenalpow]

solidarity will get that wish on turn 3 when loam is already pressuring the deck to win. Its not as easy as you make it seem.

[Pulp_Fiction]

This deck has almost no chance of beating Solidarity and an even worse chance of beating Spring Tide because it is generally a little faster and will fizzle less. If they don't have a counter and you can resolve a DD for 2-4 then that alone will generally give you enough time to drop a threat and put them on a short clock. But they will almost always have an answer to 1x CotV and banking on drawing 2x CotVs both games is just not happening.

Now a good answer to the deck is running 1x Krosan Reclamation in the SB and 1x maindeck Volrath's Stronghold. It gives you a fighting chance but this matchup is still close to unwinnable for Aggro Loam. I suppose you could put 1x Gaea's Blessing in the SB but against Painter I prefer Krosan Reclamation because I may accidentally dredge up Blessing with Loam and I could be in a potentially worse situation than I was in before.

[Jujuhawk]

solidarity will get that wish on turn 3 when loam is already pressuring the deck to win. Its not as easy as you make it seem.

What pressure? Our only hope is to get a crusher, and if we don't/it gets countered then they have at least 4 turns to win.

I honestly don't think you've even played against solidarity with this deck because the matchup is fucking abysmal. at least 85/15 pre-board.

[arsenalpow]

Solidarity is a dead archetype at the moment, people have been trying to find a way to fight counterbalance but it seems pretty hopeless, there is no way the matchup is 85-15 in solidaritys favor. They still have to deal with your disruption (chalice, targeted discard, dreams) and win in the process.

I honestly believe that you shouldn't even worry about solidarity right now because counterbalances are EVERYWHERE. This is an environment where solidarity cannot operate effectively.

[Aleksandr]

I honestly believe that you shouldn't even worry about solidarity right now because counterbalances are EVERYWHERE. This is an environment where solidarity cannot operate effectively.

OK, but is this environment healthy for AgrroLoam?

Typical Loam.dec: http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=18147
Solidarity: http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=16106

Look at "statistics and manacurve" option and compare the (and ) slot. I do not feel that the Loam player will easily dodge C-Balance. Not to mention that he has much less chances to stop it.

Not that it means that Solidarity is viable.. But I do not think that the omnipresence of C-Balance decks is a reason to hype Loam..

EDIT: V. Shusher somehow changes this statement..

[georgjorge]

I don't know, I worried a bit about it too, but somehow have yet to lose against a CBalance (no exaggeration). I guess the reasons for that are

a) You usually put pressure on the other deck in the form of land destruction and beats, so they don't have that much mana to spare to manipulate the top of their library at all times. That means that you can often bait a library manipulation (or putting Top away) with a Seize or Duress, then resolve a Loam (for Wastelands), Dreams or Confidant.
b) Aggro-Loam may only run seven cards with a cc of three, but all of them will win you the game if left unanswered, so resolving one can be enough.

Another topic...as I've seen that almost everyone runs Wish, how often do you find yourself Wishing for something other than Loam or Dreams, and when you do, does it have enough of an impact on the game ? Because after much consideration and testing, I now think that the difference between running Wish or maindecking DDreams and Deed instead is very small (if you're not playing in a Stax- or Enchantress-heavy meta) - what you really want to get with it is Loam or Dreams, and I find that with the seven cycling lands, Loam usually finds its way into your hand even without Wish.

[technogeek5000]

I don't know, I worried a bit about it too, but somehow have yet to lose against a CBalance (no exaggeration). I guess the reasons for that are

a) You usually put pressure on the other deck in the form of land destruction and beats, so they don't have that much mana to spare to manipulate the top of their library at all times. That means that you can often bait a library manipulation (or putting Top away) with a Seize or Duress, then resolve a Loam (for Wastelands), Dreams or Confidant.
b) Aggro-Loam may only run seven cards with a cc of three, but all of them will win you the game if left unanswered, so resolving one can be enough.

Another topic...as I've seen that almost everyone runs Wish, how often do you find yourself Wishing for something other than Loam or Dreams, and when you do, does it have enough of an impact on the game ? Because after much consideration and testing, I now think that the difference between running Wish or maindecking DDreams and Deed instead is very small (if you're not playing in a Stax- or Enchantress-heavy meta) - what you really want to get with it is Loam or Dreams, and I find that with the seven cycling lands, Loam usually finds its way into your hand even without Wish.

First part QFT

Second Im gonna have to disagree with you. By running 3 of each maindeck and 4 wish you are effectively running 7 dreams and loam. It depends on your meta, but in mine about1 time out of every 3 games I will wish for something else. Yes, spree ends games, morningtide ends games, and silence ends games or gives you a chance at winning where otherwise their would be none. Their is dreadstill, ichorid, and enchantress where I play so my 5 card wishboard works out fine for me (loam, dreams, spree, morningtide, and silence). I dont run any more because I like to have sideboard options for combo and your right, you really dont wish for anything outside of the basic 4-5.

[arsenalpow]

I was stating that aggro loam should not have to worry about solidarity because solidarity gets destroyed by counterbalance. Solidarity has been almost completed hated from the format by counterbalance and faster storm combos to a lesser degree.

Aggro loam is actually a perfect weapon to combat counterbalance and other threshold builds. If anything, aggro loam or white stax would be my weapon of choice if i knew the field would be threshold heavy.

[Nihil Credo]

I just wanted to add that a) AL actually runs 10-12 3cc bombs (Crusher, Terravore, Assault) and b) Engineered Explosives is a terrific solution to Counterbalance.

[Aleksandr]

I don't know, I worried a bit about it too, but somehow have yet to lose against a CBalance (no exaggeration). I guess the reasons for that are

a) You usually put pressure on the other deck in the form of land destruction and beats, so they don't have that much mana to spare to manipulate the top of their library at all times. That means that you can often bait a library manipulation (or putting Top away) with a Seize or Duress, then resolve a Loam (for Wastelands), Dreams or Confidant.
b) Aggro-Loam may only run seven cards with a cc of three, but all of them will win you the game if left unanswered, so resolving one can be enough.

Another topic...as I've seen that almost everyone runs Wish, how often do you find yourself Wishing for something other than Loam or Dreams, and when you do, does it have enough of an impact on the game ? Because after much consideration and testing, I now think that the difference between running Wish or maindecking DDreams and Deed instead is very small (if you're not playing in a Stax- or Enchantress-heavy meta) - what you really want to get with it is Loam or Dreams, and I find that with the seven cycling lands, Loam usually finds its way into your hand even without Wish.

First part: QFT, too..

Second part: Yep, it is very nice to have those 7 DD+LftL copies. And some of the not-so-common targets (like Spree and Silence) are the most powerful solutions one could need:

- Spree against Affi, CotV, Stax..
- Silence against Enchantress, Prisons, Leylines
- sometimes Pyroclasm against fast hordes (but I do not use one...)
- now Raven´s Crime for attrition wars with controls?
- Edict/Deathmark against big critters..

Even if you use the minimum Wishboard (LftL, DD, Spree, Silence) the improvement is obvious.. and four cards in SB do not clog it. Of course for Chalicesphere-heavy meta you may even use more than one Spree in SB to side them in instead of your own Chalices... (Or just play one Spree as Wish terget and side in EEs, Grips or Putrefies..)

I played with Wishes and without them... and I am much more happy with them.

[GreenOne]

I don't see any discussion about the new retrace cards.
Is Raven's crime an automatic X of in a build?
What about Worm Harvest?

I'd play both in 1x maindeck and 0x side. What do you guys think?

[Illissius]

Worm Harvest is very powerful, but slow. Aggro Loam has considerably less acceleration than Lands.dec does. My guess would be 1-2 maindeck, depending on the build (more aggressive ones might not want any), and maybe one more as a Wish target, though it's less powerful there because while Harvest can't effectively be countered (for long), Wish very well can be and frequently is.

But what about adding some Explorations (or even Birds of Paradise) alongside the Diamonds, and then playing more Harvests (say, 3)?

[Jaiminho]

But what about adding some Explorations (or even Birds of Paradise) alongside the Diamonds, and then playing more Harvests (say, 3)?

You play around 20 lands you really want to have in play. The others are cycling ones and those you play if needed. Mox Diamond accelerates into one turn only, while not wasting cycling lands in play. Having both Exploration and Mox would make one of them less effective.

[Illissius]

- If you draw either Mox or Exploration but not both, they're not going to conflict.

- If you draw both Mox and Exploration but not Loam, they will indeed be less effective than they could be on their own.

- If you draw both Mox and Exploration together with Loam, Loam will in all likelihood provide you with enough lands to make full use of both of them.

- If you draw neither Mox nor Exploration, well, obviously they aren't going to conflict then either. However, you will lack acceleration, and this case will occur more frequently if you don't run Exploration.

So while Exploration and Mox don't have great synergy with each other on paper, and cases where they conflict certainly do exist, they both have great synergy with the rest of the deck, and it might nonetheless be more advantageous to run both of them just to increase your odds of drawing at least one. The drawback I would be more concerned with in Exploration's case is the fact that it's card disadvantage which effectively "does nothing" besides accelerate you (unlike Diamond, the lost card is not a land but Exploration itself, so you can't recoup it with Loam*). I think that's what I would be evaluating when trying to decide if the card is worth running.

* Considering this further, though, you can sure Loam back a different land, which, while it might not be the same card you lost by playing Exploration, is +1 card advantage all the same, balancing out the -1 from Exploration. The case where Exploration is card disadvantage and Mox Diamond isn't is if you have Loam and, without Diamond, have less than three lands in your graveyard to target. How often would this come up? Now I'm really starting to be unsure about the true pros and cons of Exploration. Logic is hard.

[georgjorge]

Second Im gonna have to disagree with you. By running 3 of each maindeck and 4 wish you are effectively running 7 dreams and loam.

Ah, I see...you run DDreams AND Wish. That sounds a bit excessive to me though, I'd run one Dreams alongside four Wish max. Anyway, I guess I'll test with Wishes some more then (it's just that I absolutely hate the speed you lose with them in an Aggro deck whose threats are already a bit expensive).

[bruno_tiete]

Ilissius: Isnt playing a bunch of lands somewhat unecessary in this deck?
I mean, the whole deck can be cast at 4 mana, including Wish into DD. I see no big use to more than 4 lands except for loam shenanigans and EE for 3 plus activation. Well, maybe that is enough, but it feels somewhat out of place here.

I do understand the effort. What is this deck to do turn 1 given no mox in the openning 7? Land, go? possibly EE against ETW tokens? Chalice at 0 on the play against combo? Seems pretty bad for an aggro deck.

[Pulp_Fiction]

@georgjorge: Burning Wish is one of the main reasons why this deck is that good. I am constantly Wishing for different cards. Now I will say you mostly Wish for Loam and DD but I have Wished for every card in my SB more than 3 times. Reverent Silence is so good against Leyline, Shattering Spree is infinitely useful, especially considering people in my meta are running Vedalken Shackles, Affinity, Stiflenoughttrash etc. I recently put in Deathmark and that is really working for me. I have also won numerous games based on resolving Wing Snare!!

@sasa_batora: My meta is filled with GayCounterbalance.dec in all forms and to be totally honest the only times I have ever lost to one of them is when I am getting unlucky. That is it, if this deck is even operating at 25% of its normal effeciency it will still smash GayCounterbalance.dec. These matchups get even better when the KGrips come in.

@Illissius: Although I think Worm Harvest will be one of those win more cards it could be very effective against something like Landstill which is about a 50/50 matchup for Aggro Loam. I doubt either Raven's Crime of Worm Harvest will prove to be a good fit for this deck. Raven's Crime in particular I find useless, I mean who gives a shit what is in you opponent's hand when you can just DD their board away. Then someone would respond by saying "well Raven's Crime would be good against Thresh and other GayCounterbalance.dec variants." But since this deck already smashes those Raven's Crime just seems pointless. Worm Harvest is another story. It deserves testing and for sure it will be good in Lands! but I am not sure it is a good fit for this deck since this deck has no lack at all of serious threats and puts your opponent on a fast clock unlike Lands!. Worm Harvest could prove to be teh nuts but I wouldn't get my hopes up. It seems like just another "meh" kind of card. Now if Wizards make a sorcery Disenchant with Retrace FUCKING AUTO-INCLUDE!! That would be HOT!!!!

[DeathwingZERO]

Ilissius: Isnt playing a bunch of lands somewhat unecessary in this deck?
I mean, the whole deck can be cast at 4 mana, including Wish into DD. I see no big use to more than 4 lands except for loam shenanigans and EE for 3 plus activation. Well, maybe that is enough, but it feels somewhat out of place here.

I do understand the effort. What is this deck to do turn 1 given no mox in the openning 7? Land, go? possibly EE against ETW tokens? Chalice at 0 on the play against combo? Seems pretty bad for an aggro deck.

The build I'm playtesting with is one Volt has built, and I would never be able to stress enough that if you want DD maindeck, you NEED those 27 lands. Between DD, Mox, and pitching to Assault, those lands tend to go very quick, and those are usually not the cycling ones. The other obvious answers to high land count are the two big beaters: Terravore and Crusher. Both play into each other with ridiculous synergy BECAUSE of the high land count making Crusher's triggers that much more devastating.

And yes, the deck's first turn has a worst case scenario of "Land, go". But usually if you are going to keep an opening hand that isn't fast (Moxless), it better be good. A couple cycling lands, a few Goyfs, or at least enough lands to drop your threats consistently on the next two turns. Realistically, "Land, go" isn't even a bad first turn for this deck, since it's curve is so tight. The only deck I wouldn't want to "Land, go" against is Goblins, and even then, you can probably get Goyf out on turn 2 as a 1/2 to block Lackey on the play. It's a good enough stall to get Crusher turn 3, and from there they just kinda cry. It is an aggro deck, but it's far from a weenie deck. Your opening hand doesn't need to wreck them immediately, a slow first turn won't lose you that much tempo.

[adrieng]

I play a different version of aggro loam : I don't play mox diamond
I play aether vial. I don't play seimic assaut which is often win more :
you need lftl to play it and the rrr cost make it too slow without mox diamond to beat/race aggro or you have already won : 2 firestorm are good.
I play 4 dark confidant and 3 mongrel, obviously 4 crusher and 4 goyf and a lonly terravore.
This make aether vial a lot better you have a lot of 2cc creatures for vial.
I don't like terravore I often find it too slow : you need to have dredged at least twice or three time to make it good enough to trade with goyf.
Wild mongrel avoid opponents to attack with goyf. And there is an obvious synergry with both lftl and crusher. He often allowed me to race a stalker or combo/burn. I have fond aether vial better than mox : against control aggro control it is obviously better avoid standstill and counterbalance.
And I have found that with (multiple) mox diamond when you don't have loam it's a rather bad card.
I play 27-28(4 wasteland) lands don't no yet with 6-7 cycling lands.
4 burning wish and 3 DD.
I think there is no discussion about burning wish ; It seems to me an auto include : versatile and give you the 2 best cards of the deck.
I play a worm harvest target for wish it is GG against control.