[DTB] Vial Goblins

[Nihil Credo]

Tuning Goblins to beat Aggro Loam is about as fruitful as trying to tune Dragon Stompy to beat Enchantress, or Landstill to beat 43 Land, or White Weenie to beat The Epic Storm.

As an Aggro Loam pilot/designer, let me emphasize that it isn't nearly as bad a matchup as you paint it. A Weirding build, properly piloted (see my earlier post), is around 50% likely to win each game, and may even be favoured postboard if you have significant hate (that means Leyline/Extirpate/Planar Void, not Price of Progress) and they don't.

Of course, if you don't run Weirding then you will just lose to a bunch of fat guys. But even a suboptimal Goblins build can still steal games - Aggro Loam often happens to have slow starts, which the little red guys excelt at taking advantage of.

[Tacosnape]

As an Aggro Loam pilot/designer, let me emphasize that it isn't nearly as bad a matchup as you paint it. A Weirding build, properly piloted (see my earlier post), is around 50% likely to win each game, and may even be favoured postboard if you have significant hate (that means Leyline/Extirpate/Planar Void, not Price of Progress) and they don't.

Of course, if you don't run Weirding then you will just lose to a bunch of fat guys. But even a suboptimal Goblins build can still steal games - Aggro Loam often happens to have slow starts, which the little red guys excelt at taking advantage of.

Maybe it just feels like every time I play against it my opponent starts with an average of 1.5 Mox Diamonds in his opening hand. (Ditto with Suicide Black and Dark Rituals. It always beats me but I never win with it.) I'm sort of surprised the matchup isn't better due to Devastating Dreams, but I can see where it would be difficult to set Dreams up quickly to where it didn't hurt you also.

I'm still in the process of trying to get Aggro Loam built, so I'll give the matchup some more testing from both ends then, since around here, even the ducks at the park around here run Goblins.

[Phantom]

At this point, Aggro Loam is probably the best deck that is completely impossible to nail down solid matchup numbers about since all the builds are so damn different. I have both a R/G and a R/B/G Loam in my tiny meta, and i think they both have slightly positive matchups against goblins (green splash).

I can see how a black splash would help game one, but wouldn't it leave you with few outs when the plagues inevitably come in game 2?

[Tacosnape]

At this point, Aggro Loam is probably the best deck that is completely impossible to nail down solid matchup numbers about since all the builds are so damn different. I have both a R/G and a R/B/G Loam in my tiny meta, and i think they both have slightly positive matchups against goblins (green splash).

I can see how a black splash would help game one, but wouldn't it leave you with few outs when the plagues inevitably come in game 2?

Does Aggro Loam run Plague?

I think this confirms your first sentence. Nobody's even sure what the deck's running because the builds vary so greatly.

[The Marco]

@ PoP in the SB: PoP doesnt beat ichorid, it does prety much nothing to iggy, and PoP + your nonbasics+ thier diamond mox + devastating dreams = not a combo, and possibly only 2-4 damage (they WILL fetch basics after they see your wastes)

Fanatic, Weirding (on your own creatures), Gemplam on your creatures does beat Ichorid. I'll at least give you that it does little against Iggy (which I haven't seen in a while and is a highly defavorable matchup anyways), but POP straight up kills several decks...granted it's not exactly the best against Aggro Loam if they work around it (which should slow them down a little, maybee enough for you to deal enough damages to get them to a critical point).

[kabal]

Here is BG version that placed 3rd @ a 44 person tournament in Japan. Thoughts?

MB Earwig with no Piledriver and SB Fodder Launch. No Piledriver seems like a huge mistake, but he is supplementing it with Earwig and Goon. As for "Fodder", that seems like it should have been Weirding.

Ono Masayuki

Main:
3 Bloodstained Mire
3 Wooded Foothills
4 Taiga
4 Badlands
4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port

4 Goblin Lackey
4 Mogg Fanatic
3 Tin Street Hooligan
4 Gempalm Incinerator
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Warchief
4 Goblin Ringleader
3 Goblin Goon
3 Earwig Squad
1 Goblin Tinkerer
4 AEther Vial


Sideboard:
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
1 Earwig Squad
2 Patron of the Akki
3 Krosan Grip
4 Leyline of the Void
4 Fodder Launch

[TeenieBopper]

Three colors plus 4x waste/port makes me cringe. No SGC is really weird too, since he basically switched them for Goon, and SGC is obviously the more powerful card. I'm not really getting the hype around Earwig Squad, either. LIke, I know it's good, but I'm not positive it warrants sideboard slots, let alone maindeck ones.

I guess I can't really say that it's bad, but it does look like it's tuned to beat a very specific meta.

[GreenOne]

I guess I can't really say that it's bad, but it does look like it's tuned to beat a very specific meta.

Yeah, I'm with this man.

[Nihil Credo]

Goblin Goon should also be SGC. Among other, more important and obvious reasons, it also makes Incinerator much more powerful.

Aside from that, those maindeck Earwig Squads may be one of the best metagame calls I have ever seen. The Japanese seem to love their non-Storm combo decks.

Looking for decks that get raped by triple-Extract:

#1 - Trinket Mage toolbox
#2 - MUC with 4 win conditions (plus Shackles)
#5 - Cephalid Breakfast
#8 - Jar combo with 3 Tendrils of Agony
#9 - Aluren
#10 - MUC with 4 win conditions (plus Shackles)
#16 - Survival/Gifts creature tutor deck
#17 - Aluren
#18 - Time Vault combo with 3 Vaults
#23 - Ichorid
#29 - Cephalid Breakfast
#33 - Gamekeeper

and probably several more. And I didn't count the ones against which Squad was just 'strong' (e.g. some Landstill lists with only three sweepers, or black-based aggro with 2-3 Jittes).

[Roldaice]

It depends of the metagame, indeed, which is not really a combo one here, but 0 Piledriver 0 SGC is surprising.

[Tacosnape]

Aside from the really bonkers-seeming choices of goblins, the manabase of the above build is very intriguing. Specifically, it didn't have a basic Mountain in it.

Does Goblins need Basic Mountains to survive? And how many? Certainly the ever-played Blood Moon doesn't hurt any more than usual here, and if Moonthresh is on the rise, Threshold won't be running Wasteland as often. Would the vulnerability to hopefully-declining Wasteland or the occasional rogue Back to Basics be worth the consistency of being able to easily support and operate Tin-Street Hooligan and Warren Weirding in the same deck?

Specifically, can you run the following manabase

4 Wooded Foothills
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Taiga
4 Badlands
4 Wasteland
2 Rishadan Port

And not be exceedingly bitten in the ass for it? Discuss.

[TeenieBopper]

Aside from the really bonkers-seeming choices of goblins, the manabase of the above build is very intriguing. Specifically, it didn't have a basic Mountain in it.

Does Goblins need Basic Mountains to survive? And how many? Certainly the ever-played Blood Moon doesn't hurt any more than usual here, and if Moonthresh is on the rise, Threshold won't be running Wasteland as often. Would the vulnerability to hopefully-declining Wasteland or the occasional rogue Back to Basics be worth the consistency of being able to easily support and operate Tin-Street Hooligan and Warren Weirding in the same deck?

Specifically, can you run the following manabase

4 Wooded Foothills
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Taiga
4 Badlands
4 Wasteland
2 Rishadan Port

And not be exceedingly bitten in the ass for it? Discuss.

Could you run it? Yeah, probably. Would I suggest it? Probably not. One of the strongest things about Goblins used to be the stability of its mana base. Two colors is still incredibly stable, but three? I still hate running three colors, but there's simply too many strong cards in both green and black to easily justify not running them.

Having been Waste locked before, I'll simply say this: you need have some serious freakin' cojones to even think about running that mana base.

[Tacosnape]

Two colors is still incredibly stable, but three? I still hate running three colors, but there's simply too many strong cards in both green and black to easily justify not running them.

This is sort of the thought process I find myself permanently stuck at. I could say to hell with most of the cards any nonred color gives me except that Green gives me Tin-Street Hooligan and Krosan Grip, and Black gives me Warren Weirding, and playing without any of the three leaves me feeling sort of naked.

At the moment I'm sticking with R/G with quad maindeck Hooligans, as my metagame is rife with Goblin mirrors where Hooligan shines and Weirding doesn't. I'm still running Spitebellows as my Goyf answer in board as sort of a slightly-slower-but-on-color Shriekmaw that also kills Tombstalker.

[TeenieBopper]

At the moment I'm sticking with R/G with quad maindeck Hooligans, as my metagame is rife with Goblin mirrors where Hooligan shines and Weirding doesn't. I'm still running Spitebellows as my Goyf answer in board as sort of a slightly-slower-but-on-color Shriekmaw that also kills Tombstalker.

Not gonna lie, I got a half stock thinking about Spitebellows'ing out a 'goyf the first time you mentioned it.

[kabal]

Basically just got done playing this build in a 21-person tournament to a split for 1st. Port was the MVP and I would definitely argue against it's exclusion.

// Lands
4 Mountain
3 Badlands
3 Bloodstained Mire
3 Rishadan Port
3 Taiga
4 Wasteland
3 Wooded Foothills

// Creatures
3 Gempalm Incinerator
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Piledriver
1 Goblin Pyromancer
4 Goblin Ringleader
4 Goblin Warchief
4 Mogg Fanatic
2 Siege-Gang Commander
1 Tin Street Hooligan
1 Wort, Boggart Auntie
4 Goblin Lackey

// Spells
1 Warren Weirding

// Artifacts
4 Aether Vial

// Sideboard
SB: 4 Chalice of the Void
SB: 2 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 1 Engineered Explosives
SB: 1 Goblin King
SB: 3 Krosan Grip
SB: 3 Pyrokinesis
SB: 1 Warren Weirding

---

1 : B/U Reanimator (2-1)
2 : Ugw Counterbalance Threshold (2-0)
3 : Angel Stompy (0-2)
4 : Affinity (2-1)
5 : Salvagers Combo (2-0)
6 : Rack.dec (2-0)

[Braves]

Basically just got done playing this build in a 21-person tournament to a split for 1st. Port was the MVP and I would definitely argue against it's exclusion.

// Lands
4 Mountain
3 Badlands
3 Bloodstained Mire
3 Rishadan Port
3 Taiga
4 Wasteland
3 Wooded Foothills

// Creatures
3 Gempalm Incinerator
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Piledriver
1 Goblin Pyromancer
4 Goblin Ringleader
4 Goblin Warchief
4 Mogg Fanatic
2 Siege-Gang Commander
1 Tin Street Hooligan
1 Wort, Boggart Auntie
4 Goblin Lackey

// Spells
1 Warren Weirding

// Artifacts
4 Aether Vial

// Sideboard
SB: 4 Chalice of the Void
SB: 2 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 1 Engineered Explosives
SB: 1 Goblin King
SB: 3 Krosan Grip
SB: 3 Pyrokinesis
SB: 1 Warren Weirding

---

1 : B/U Reanimator (2-1)
2 : Ugw Counterbalance Threshold (2-0)
3 : Angel Stompy (0-2)
4 : Affinity (2-1)
5 : Salvagers Combo (2-0)
6 : Rack.dec (2-0)

Very nice job Brett. My gobbos did not do so well last night.

[whienot]

@ Kabal

How many times did Wort, Boggart Auntie become a factor in games? Recurring a weirding seems really strong, especially against thresh and reanimator. Did you ever wish you had more than two post board?

[kabal]

@ Kabal

How many times did Wort, Boggart Auntie become a factor in games? Recurring a weirding seems really strong, especially against thresh and reanimator. Did you ever wish you had more than two post board?

She really wasn't a factor, has neither was Weirding. It wasn't because I didn't see either, just because Goblins was Goblins ... Lackey into relevant Goblins FTW.

There was twice were the combo of Wort and Weirding could have been game breaking. Once against Reanimator where I had Wort in play and Weirding in hand and it was the same Vs. Salvagers.

Honestly, Hooligan much more relevant this tournament. Most of the time I wished I had MB > 1

@Braves

Thx ...

[Berzerked]

The list looks pretty tight. I've always like 23 lands over 22, and with 3 colors and Ports, that's definitely the right choice.

Was Incinerator necessarily better than Wierding, or would you concider switching up the numbers?

Did Pyromancer win any games? I assume you like him better than Sharpshooter. For what reason?

[Illissius]

Mogg Fanatic has come up from time to time, and the verdict thus far -- which I agreed with -- has always been "keep him". Is this still the case? Ichorid and Breakfast are diminishing in popularity, and decks which play creatures these days often play extremely fat ones -- Goyf, Doran, Crusher, and friends. Fanatic's potential impact on games seems to be much lower right now than at any time in recent memory; the only two important creatures I can think of offhand which are still commonly played and he kills are Birds of Paradise and Dark Confidant (EDIT: okay, and I obviously forgot the mirror, where he kills Lackey). Is this enough to keep playing him? A 1/1 who deals one damage is just a lower level of power than basically every other card in the deck. Would it be worth cutting him for more of the more powerful removal options, for example? Weirdings and Gempalms and such. There's also definitely the issue of mana curve to consider, though.