Well, I have been lurking around The Source for some time and playtest with Evil Roopey constantly. This is an idea I had a while ago, and Bryan helped me tweak the deck to be one of the best metagame decks you can play right now. The deck has the ability to beat Threshold and Goblins while still having a decent game against the rest of te field. Hard to believe, right?
-Any sort of well built Zoo deck should inherently have a good game against Goblins; your creatures are bigger, come down just as fast, and just plain look sweeter than any Goblin.
Using that piece of information, I decided to tune my Zoo deck to beat Gro. In doing this I have a positive record against both Goblins and Gro, and since you are playing aggro control you have a decent game against random bullshit.
When you think of Zoo, you automatically think of some sort of Green/Red-based aggro deck that has some small controling elements, traditionally burn. While I use the same concept, I don't run Green or Red. I took a look at the current meta-game and immediatly noticed that Aggro-Control is the way to go. Being able to beat the control and combo decks, while still being able to have a game against aggro. Nice little combination of Archtypes if you ask me. While this version can probably have a better combo match-up if tuned to a combo meta, it is now currently tuned for Threshold.
Well, enjoy:
// Lands
4 [U] Scrubland
4 [ON] Bloodstained Mire
4 [B] Swamp
2 [A] Plains
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
// Creatures
4 [EX] Carnophage
4 [RAV] Dark Confidant
3 [CHK] Isamaru, Hound of Konda
4 [OD] Rotting Giant
4 [UL] Mother of Runes
3 [UD] Phyrexian Negator
// Spells
4 [TE] Sarcomancy
4 [JU] Cabal Therapy
4 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
4 [B] Swords to Plowshares
4 [TE] Diabolic Edict
// Sideboard
SB: 4 [UL] Engineered Plague
SB: 3 [R] Disenchant
SB: 4 [US] Duress
SB: 4 [AP] Gerrard's Verdict
Sceptical? Trust me, I would be too if I hadn't played the deck myself for some time. We have tested just about every card that could fit into the deck, and this is the build we think will be the best in the current meta.
Why play Black/White over 3Color Zoo? Well, that is probably the main question I should answer to explain why this deck should be played. Right now, Bryan and I think that the more controlling lists of Zoo is the way to go right now. Why? Because you have to outcontrol Threshold. This is quite a task to tackle while still being able to beat Goblins. We noticed that Diabolic Edict was just an amazing card against Threshold while still being good against just about every other deck. You might say it's not so hott versus Goblins, but since they are going to be struggling to keep up with your big creatures, it will most definatly throw off there entire game-plan just making making the lose one creature. Now, after that is said, Black and White happen to be the best colors at controling the board while still playing the aggro deck. You have good card advantage, the best hand disruption, the best removal, and some pretty effecient creatures.
If there are some questions about why some of the cards are in here:
Mother of Runes: Well, as I said earlier you want a more controling version of the deck. I tested Savannah Lions in this spot, but Mom was much better. It let's you run Negator without too much to worry about, in addition to giving you some protection from cards like Pyroclasm and spot removal. If Mom ever gets active, one spot removal spell isn't enough, and if they have two they will most likely hit Mom with the second, leaving your real threats on the board.
Phyrexian Negator: He seems like he would be poor, but is actually quite strong. He is bigger than most Gro creatures, and hits for a ton. In combination with Mom, he is insane. He's in here for a stronger late game. This deck is meant to go into turns 6-7, so you are going to need something that can handle the creatures in this format that come down around that time.
Dark Confidant: This, in my opinion, is the entire reason to run the deck. He produces card advantage, while going aggro. He might be the biggest Bolt target aside from Goblin Lackey in this entire format, because just like Lackey if he isn't dealt with, you will win the game.
Isamaru/Carnophage/Sarcomancy/Rotting Giant: This is obviously what makes up the aggro portion of the deck. These are the most effecient creatures in your colors, and they do a really good job of killing people.
Cabal Therapy: Threshold rolls over to Therapy/Flashback/Clock. Throw in some removal spells for when they try to recover, and you are set. Not only does this card swing the Thresh match-up, but is good against combo, and half-decent against Goblins. It is one of the most versatile cards in the format and it fits right into this deck.
Edict/Swords: Its your "burn" that is actually good against big creatures. They have been considered, for as long as I can remember, the best removal spells in the game.
Jitte: Well, if you didn't notice the recuring theme of life loss in this deck, here is the card that helps the recovery, while being an absolutely amazing card. Giving you one of the best late games of any Zoo deck, and making your match-ups against random decks much better.
The sideboard is quite straight forward. Against combo decks such as Solidarity and Nausea you side out your creature removal for discard, improving your match-up a lot. Against Goblins, you side out Edicts for Plagues just because Goblins, can go insane. Disenchant is for decks like Rifter and Diddly-Dal, giving you answers to cards you can't deal with otherwise.
The match-ups:
Threshold: Preboard 70-30. Postboard 70-30. They really don't have much in the sideboard for you, and you side in nothing for them, so the match plays out quite similarly both games. :)
Goblins: Preboard 65-35. Postboard 70-30. Seems decent. Like I said, you have a positive match against Goblins just because of the style of deck you are running.
Rifter: Preboard 45-55. Postboard 50-50. This is a tight matchup. There deck is built to beat decks like yours, and you have a hard time dealing with that. You want to side out your creature removal for Duresses, Disenchants, and a Verdict, but that only improves the match-up slightly.
Solidarity: Preboard 40-60. Potboard 65-35. Siding out the dead cards for higly relevant cards makes this match-up much, much better. They will probably side in Disrupts against you, assuming you are going to do exaclty what you do do, so be aware of that.
Golden Grahams: Preboard 75-25. Postboard 80-20. After some testing, you side in Duresses over Jittes in this match-up, and you have a fast clock and an insane amount of distruption for there combo. Also, be aware that you can lose to their disruption.
That is the deck.
Sarah
Interesting deck list. Spectral Lynx seems like a very good inclusion in this deck, over Negator. A format with Bolt, and GELMPALM Incenerator, is not a good format for that guy.
But just so you know any deck that has to run SCRUBlands can't be good.
Also you claim such a positive matchup against grow, but their creatures are bigger and better than yours. Mongoose, and Bear are still better than all your creatures. Also a Mage naming Edict and all they have to to is counter Swords, Jitte, keep Confidant off the board, and let their enforcer do the talking.
A good friend of mine once said:
>Pron w/sound FTW... Actually, Porn FTW. Yep. Fixed.
This list seems like it's just screaming for Vindicate. I'm not sure, but in my 4 color zoo, Vindicate was the bomb. It just takes care of so much random jank.
Good job, you proved her point. The thing is they can't possibly do all those things while facing down a clock.Originally Posted by bigredmeanie
I can't see a valid reason to run Vindicate. It's expensive and you don't have Sinkhole/Wasteland to compliment the land destruction route.This list seems like it's just screaming for Vindicate. I'm not sure, but in my 4 color zoo, Vindicate was the bomb. It just takes care of so much random jank.
That's a lot for them to do. She's got 16 removal spells, plus Confidant to draw into more. Gro can put up a fair fight with counters, but in the end there's just too much stuff to take care of, and that's not even including Cabal Therapy. Good luck countering that.
Yes, once they hit threshold they go nuts. But before then they're nothing. Early game, the Gro player won't risk blocking sarcomancies and Brunnies has the early game. When Gro hits threshold, I'm thinking that Jitte, Negator, and STP are the most important cards.
But yeah, I'd advocate Vindicate like a mofo. It's sheer awesomeness can't be ignored. Hell, you could probably cut STP and it'll be ok.
Spectral Lynx does seem like an especially good inclusion given the current state of the format.
What exactly are the Verdicts in the board for? Just seems as if in the matches you'd side them in (Combo, I'm guessing) Hymn would be better.
Verdict is for the life gain and the discard. We found out that Duress and Therapy was more than enough by itself. Verdict just makes it remarkably in your favor so that you can side out those removal spells.
I don't want to entirely doubt, this deck can put a lot of pressure on NQG in the early game...and maybe have a positive matchup, but i can't let you get away with messed up argument like this:
(@Rastodon, and @Shadow as well)
What did you say?
What are we talking about in the first place?
It is not unusual that NQGw plays MD Worship and/or MD Needle...anyways...they will bring that stuff in for sure game 2.
NQGr will have lots of fun with a Negator...
So... i am not very satisfied with this:
Excuse me, if i sound way to critical - i am just confused. :)
Last edited by kimberley; 03-13-2006 at 10:34 PM.
Team Weathermen
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Negator is awful against everything but Mono-U and Reset High Tide. He's fairly awful as a blocker, and it seems like it would absolutely suck to get him Gempalm Incinerated.
The problem with BW is you don't have very many BIG creatures, just lots of efficient ones. The problem is, if you keep throwing out 2/1s, eventually you're going to lose because Goblins get Ringleader advantage. Especially when your draw engine (Bob) loses to all hate imaginable. You run both fewer and worse creatures than Goblins, and they have Vial to pump them down more efficiently. You're basically relying on trading for infinity and then getting a Jitte active.
Try SoFI over Jitte. SoFI costs 1 more, but it's much more efficient and useful the turn it comes down.
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I couldn't disagree more with this statement. Negator is very big threat in this format. He can turn goblins into defensive mode very quickly and goblins is a very bad defensive deck. I've personally used Negator to beat Goblins many times. Sure he can be Gempalmed and you lose if your opponent has 3+ goblins in play, but often times he just kills the goblin player before it matters. He is also amazing against all forms of control in this format. He can kill a control player quickly without any drawback at all. I think your making an assumption here that isn't correct at all.
@kimberley:
Firstly, I'm posting tired so I probably don't know what I was talking about. I was saying that this deck is going to have the upper hand early game with cheap creatures with better stats. Keep in mind, this is pre-thresh. But once they hit thresh it shuts off alot of avenues this deck has. Suddenly Rotting Giant, which is the 2nd most efficient card in the deck, can only trade with their weakest creature.
I think I was just reccommending strategies to take, like accumulating Jitte counters to use on their 4/4 Wearbear when they drop it. I don't know what I was thinking, the aggro strategy hits a brick wall when they've got more beefier creatures.
Exactly, and that is exactly why the more controling version of the deck is better than the ones that aren't.
Test Vindicate before you just right it off. The sheer jank crushing power is enough in and of itself, but beyond that, it'll increase your thresh matchup and is a removal spell that isn't dead against Solidarity :) I'd probably take out a couple creatures for it, removal is good.
I'd personally definately run Spectral Lynx. Pro-green regenerators are pretty big against Threshold (R-variants can't kill it and none of their groundbeaters trample and even W-variants only have StP, and you have Therapy) and regenerators period are pretty good against Goblins, Rifter (they only have StP that can kill Reggers, all other removal they have is either damage-based or doesn't say 'can't be regged' like Vengeance) et co.
Has Flesh Reaver been tested?
Black based aggro seems to be very popular.I advice you to run Vindicate over Diabolic Edict.You are saying that StP and Edict are your "Burn" but Burn cards are never dead and having 8 dead cards against quite a lot decks donīt seem that good to me.There is no reason not to run Vindicate , even if you donīt have any LD to support it , it still comes nasty against Enchatments and Artifacts.
Negator really isnīt that great you should try something like Spector instead.It gives you more disruption and without negator I would not run MoR(allthough it has some nice interaction with equipped creatures) and Specral lynx is the card that I would replace it with.
Therapy just isnīt enough against Treshhold you need more disruption.
I would advice you to either go the Mono Black way(you might want to take a look at slumpy) because it has a better mana curve , more disruption and more efficient beats or if you want to stay B/W than you could look at the Deadguy Thread(I see NO reason why this should be better than Deadguy?).
If you still want to make something different then use the goot white as well as the good black cards.Make a metagame deck with Silver Knight,Withered Wretch , Plague Splitter etc.. instead of semi good cards like rotting giant.
Cutting creatures seems horrible. If anything at all, I would cut StP.
I'll test it more in depth, but it seems poor. Not having any actually big creatures seems bad.I'd personally definately run Spectral Lynx. Pro-green regenerators are pretty big against Threshold (R-variants can't kill it and none of their groundbeaters trample and even W-variants only have StP, and you have Therapy) and regenerators period are pretty good against Goblins, Rifter (they only have StP that can kill Reggers, all other removal they have is either damage-based or doesn't say 'can't be regged' like Vengeance) et co.
Yes, he was actually in the original list of the deck. After killing myself more than my opponent, he was taken out.Has Flesh Reaver been tested?
First of all, the reason Edict is so good in this deck is because it can kill Nimble Mongoose. I would definatly not cut it for VIndicate.Black based aggro seems to be very popular.I advice you to run Vindicate over Diabolic Edict.You are saying that StP and Edict are your "Burn" but Burn cards are never dead and having 8 dead cards against quite a lot decks donīt seem that good to me.There is no reason not to run Vindicate , even if you donīt have any LD to support it , it still comes nasty against Enchatments and Artifacts.
Negator really isnīt that great you should try something like Spector instead.It gives you more disruption and without negator I would not run MoR(allthough it has some nice interaction with equipped creatures) and Specral lynx is the card that I would replace it with.
Therapy just isnīt enough against Treshhold you need more disruption.
I would advice you to either go the Mono Black way(you might want to take a look at slumpy) because it has a better mana curve , more disruption and more efficient beats or if you want to stay B/W than you could look at the Deadguy Thread(I see NO reason why this should be better than Deadguy?).
If you still want to make something different then use the goot white as well as the good black cards.Make a metagame deck with Silver Knight,Withered Wretch , Plague Splitter etc.. instead of semi good cards like rotting giant.
Now, I'm going to take a page out of you guys' book and say: Test Negator before you ride it off. He is amazing. I will be testing Lynx in the spot today, but I'm going to tell you that it probably won't work.
If you need to take care of gro problems, Withered Wretch and Spectral Lynx give them fits, especially if you happen to control a Mother of Runes, too. Hmm... come to think of it, mom hoses almost all the problems for your deck short of an engineered plague, as long as you can get her active, and it's pretty sweet to see your opponent have to send your MoR farming instead of, say, a Phyrexian Negator. That being said, you still have a pretty hard time with E. Plagues and Humility, so Vindicate or Mortify could be good additions. Personally, I would definately include Lynx.
First I like to say I really like the deck, it plays very well.
Well, at least it beats Deadguy. Since Deadguy had gained a lot of poppulairity lately, mirrormatches are something you should be prepaired for. Since I really hate playing the deadguy mirror (even more than the high tide mirror) I've never played deadguy in a tournament, as much as I like B/W-decks. I'd give this a try in a tournament.
About the Negators, everybody understands they are a very risky to play, but after a couple of games testing I think they deserve the spot. All you have to do is play them smartly.
I think the only real problem for this deck might be burn. at least the first game.
If it's actually a meta concern, there's always Stench of Evil for the SB.
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