[Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist

[URABAHN]

Realizing that Dreadnaught is too fragile to commit two cards to early game against many decks, I figured two would be the right number in a deck, and he should be supported with really good early game cards. This lead me to this list. Looking for comments and suggestions.

Running two Dreadnoughts isn't optimal, especially when you're not running Trinket Mage. You want at least three. Your manabase is awful, why are you running maindeck Islands, only 2 Sea, only 2 Trop, and a Bayou? If you want to take advantage of something like Back to Basics out of your board, I can understand why you'd run maindeck Island, but other than that, it just doesn't make a whole lot of sense. Since I'm on the subject of not making sense, why are you running Mishra's, but no Standstill? And why in the world would you cut a Brainstorm for anything? If you're going to cut something, cut the awful creature removal you're running in Putrefy. What creatures (or artifacts) are you afraid of that you feel the need to run that card?

I love this deck but with the INSANE amounts of spot removal and Grips to hit counterbalance in my meta I had to stop playing it. Has anyone found a way to fight through the hate? I've tried Kira but he/she kind of sucks otherwise.

I've been fighting Fire with Fire. I've changed the list I had been running after I saw everyone making the most out of Counterbalance Top at the GP. I think it's best to run all 4 of your own Counterbalance, a full set of Top, and a full set of Daze to fight off Counterbalance. This way, you maximize your ability to set up Counterbalance Top (hopefully before your opponent) and you have Force and Daze to stop their Counterbalance. I like the Green splash build that gives you access to Goyf and SB Grip.

[deadlock]

I've been fighting Fire with Fire. I've changed the list I had been running after I saw everyone making the most out of Counterbalance Top at the GP. I think it's best to run all 4 of your own Counterbalance, a full set of Top, and a full set of Daze to fight off Counterbalance. This way, you maximize your ability to set up Counterbalance Top (hopefully before your opponent) and you have Force and Daze to stop their Counterbalance. I like the Green splash build that gives you access to Goyf and SB Grip.

I agree with you here that the deck need an update with the GP results in mind.
First of i consider the Ur version as ideal, so i started from there. Like i posted in the Dreadstalker thread my approach is to add black instead of red for Confidant, Stalker and maybe Thoughtseize (Plague out of the board).
Confidant would replace Standstill, running both would be overkill in my opinion (with 4 BS and 2-4 SDT already in the deck). Stalker is a large beater beside Nought and people might side in useless GY hate because of him. Double black could be a problem, with Confidant in the deck i wouldnt run more than two (maybe in the board).

As you said a similiar thing can be achived by adding green for Goyf as big beater and keeping Standstill as CA engine.

[FoolofaTook]

I love this deck but with the INSANE amounts of spot removal and Grips to hit counterbalance in my meta I had to stop playing it. Has anyone found a way to fight through the hate? I've tried Kira but he/she kind of sucks otherwise.

Kira also has the problem that once she lands you cannot stifle your own noughts effectively.

I had a Kira/Magus of the Abyss deck with Stiflenought as the other main effect and the suites collided so often that the deck never got past the nasty casual stage.

[HammafistRoob]

Kira also has the problem that once she lands you cannot stifle your own noughts effectively.

Yes you can.

[Soto]

Yes you can.

Details, you're not targeting the Dreadnought but the triggered ability.

[FoolofaTook]

Maybe I should go back and look at that deck again. It's the one I brought to Wareham a couple of times right after I got back into Magic and I completely missed the fact that I was stifling the ability on the stack not the nought itself.

Thanks for pointing out the blind spot.

[URABAHN]

I agree with you here that the deck need an update with the GP results in mind.
First of i consider the Ur version as ideal, so i started from there. Like i posted in the Dreadstalker thread my approach is to add black instead of red for Confidant, Stalker and maybe Thoughtseize (Plague out of the board).
Confidant would replace Standstill, running both would be overkill in my opinion (with 4 BS and 2-4 SDT already in the deck). Stalker is a large beater beside Nought and people might side in useless GY hate because of him. Double black could be a problem, with Confidant in the deck i wouldnt run more than two (maybe in the board).

As you said a similiar thing can be achived by adding green for Goyf as big beater and keeping Standstill as CA engine.

I've tinkered with Confidant in my weekly Legacy Tournaments here in VA and I think that's an idea with potential. DC doesn't die to Snuff Out and can be a huge headache for your opponent if they don't get rid of him. While I did miss Standstill and Tarmogoyf, it was nice to cut Mishra's Factory. If you cut Standstill and run Confidant, you can also run 2-3 Ponder which helped set up CounterTop in a few of the Top 16 GP Chicago Decks.

[Mayk0l]

Has anyone tested a UR list with maindeck or sideboard Sowers?
Sower doesn't die to Krosan Grip, so it's a good alternative to Threads of Disloyalty seeing as Grip gets boarded in to deal with both Counterbalance and Dreadnought. Also, with the recent increase of Snuff Outs being played, CB flips Sower to counter it. And the deck has a lot of options of protecting it.

[pippo84]

I tried to play with the Vedalken Shackles months ago, quite similar to Sower of Temptation but cutted them off. It'not what the deck needs.
I agree with cutting Standstill, but not Mishra's Factory.
And I also agree with playing a full set of CB/Top: the GP shows the results.
I don't think we also need Ponder: BS and SDT are enought library manipulation but I think we need another threat but Stalker is too "heavy" with confidant around. With the black splash there could be Hunted Horror, but it kinda sucks really.. Better splashing green for Tarmo and Krosan Grip.
I ask it again: anyone thinks Cunning Wish could fit the Board?

[deadlock]

Despite GP results with Sower maindeck, i see the card only work in one scenario: In a MUC style deck, where the maindeck threats present themselves all immun to spot removal (eg Morphling) comes Sower out of the board. So your opponent never knows if he must keep the spot removal and if yes for how many Sowers?
In Dreadstill your opponent will keep his removal in every case, there is one thing so. I quite like Kira out of the board, which would accidentally synergizes with Sower aswell.

For Wish is see no room and no room / to slow or do you have some strong arguments for its inclusion?

GP top 8 featured a deck with i think 3 Stalkes and 3 SDT, so 4 SDT, 4 BS and 2 Stalker should be fine dont you think? He fulfills the role like Goyf and Nought as heavy beater which doesnt get hit by Grip, but doesnt require an additional splash (Goyf) and doesnt two for one you (Nought), so he can be cast more 'blindly' into your opponents removal.

I also dont think that Ponder is required, room is a problem too.

[Mayk0l]

So your opponent never knows if he must keep the spot removal and if yes for how many Sowers?

Yeah but I've felt most 'spot removal' people sides in against me is Krosan Grip, and incidentally that's no good against Sower of Temptation

[HammafistRoob]

I tried to play with the Vedalken Shackles months ago, quite similar to Sower of Temptation but cutted them off. It'not what the deck needs.

I think that Sower would perform much better in this deck than Shackles would. Reason being the amount of non-islands this deck runs(7-8) isn't really the hottest thing for Shackles.

I agree with cutting Standstill, but not Mishra's Factory.

Cutting Standstill is the worst thing that you could ever do. Dreadstill is a deck that was designed to abuse the tempo gained from dropping either a Standstill or an early Dreadnought. If you cut Standstill, and rely on Dark Confidant to get massive card advantage, you better have a backup plan against decks like The Rock where Standstill shines and Bob blows. I probably like Bob more than any other magic player, but there is no way he can play the role of Standstill better than Standstill(especially in Dreadstill).

Also, if you do cut Standstill, cut Factory as well. It wouldn't make much sense to have a weaker manabase than neccesary.

And I also agree with playing a full set of CB/Top: the GP shows the results.
I don't think we also need Ponder: BS and SDT are enought library manipulation but I think we need another threat but Stalker is too "heavy" with confidant around. With the black splash there could be Hunted Horror, but it kinda sucks really.. Better splashing green for Tarmo and Krosan Grip.

You don't need 4 Tops unless you cut Trinket Mage. I personally splashed green for Goyf, but I could easily see a list with 4 Factory, 4 Dreadnought, 3 Trinket, and 2-3 Sower being a serious contender in a tournament.

I ask it again: anyone thinks Cunning Wish could fit the Board?

Cunning Wish is to slow and clunky. Before the new errata of Dreadnought came in this deck ran like a bad version of MUC. It ran Show and Tell Colossus, N. Disk, FoF and C. Wish. But ever since the Dreadnought combo was added to the deck Cunning Wish juat didn't make the cut. IMO it's just to slow, conditional, clunky, and plain uneeded. What are you planning to wish for anyways some bounce spell?

[Mayk0l]

You don't need 4 Tops unless you cut Trinket Mage. I personally splashed green for Goyf, but I could easily see a list with 4 Factory, 4 Dreadnought, 3 Trinket, and 2-3 Sower being a serious contender in a tournament.

My thoughts exactly, I'll be trying this in the near future. One of the other reasons to play Sower over both Threads of Disloyalty and Vedalken Shackles is the fact that it doesn't die to Krosan Grip, and everybody boards in Grips against Dreadstill.
Playing Sower instead of splashing for Goyf means I'll have a more stable manabase and retain the advantages of playing UR. As a side note, it takes care of Tombstalker which is thé card I've died to the most recently. UR has few things before boarding against a resolve Tombstalker.

[HammafistRoob]

Keep us updated on how your testing with Sower ends up. I'm really interested in him to.

Tombstalker is a pain in the ass game 1, but he doesn't get along with Echoing Truth very well.

[Mayk0l]

Submerging it in response to a cracked Fetchland is priceless :)

I don't really like Echoing Truth. True, it costs two and that makes it stronger with CB, but paying that two mana is often daunting when there's so many other things you want to do with the mana.

[pippo84]

I agree that Sower is better than Shackles, but you don't need to steal any creature playing a 12/12 trampler.

I was thinking of Cunning Wish to find answers at what we don't have MB: enchantments/artifacts, but I agree probably it's to slow.
Anyway seeing how many CB where played at the GP and also to fight Humility/Moat I'll try and cut 2 spaces in the MB for 2 Echoing Truth or Wipe Away. I don't like these cards much but they are the only answers an UB version which I play can have.
I will try some matches playing Stalker, even though I don't think it's really good with CB and Bob, but I'll give it a try.
I'll also try the Sower btw.

[URABAHN]

You don't need 4 Tops unless you cut Trinket Mage. I personally splashed green for Goyf, but I could easily see a list with 4 Factory, 4 Dreadnought, 3 Trinket, and 2-3 Sower being a serious contender in a tournament.

Roob, I'm curious why you wouldn't want to maximize use of Counterbalance + Top by running 4 Top with or without Trinket Mage? Can't we all agree that Turn 1 or Turn 2 SDT is better than Turn 3 Trinket Mage (for SDT), Turn 4 SDT?

[Muppet86]

Roob, I'm curious why you wouldn't want to maximize use of Counterbalance + Top by running 4 Top with or without Trinket Mage? Can't we all agree that Turn 1 or Turn 2 SDT is better than Turn 3 Trinket Mage (for SDT), Turn 4 SDT?

But what would you cut for the third and fourth SDT. Trinket mage is still very important in this deck, since it can search SDT/DreadNought and EE (i play two EE mainboard). Having to tops, and having the ability to search for one is still as good. I would not want the 3 and 4 top in this deck, since they are dead cards when you already have one on the table. I would rather draw a trinket mage than a top when i have a top on the table.

@Maykol
playing with sowers is a good idea. Especially creating a manabase which is stronger against manadisruption. Although the problem is, it's 4 mana, so it will take a while to see play. Goyf is a turn 2 drop, and has helped me a lot recently. I'm playing the URG version now, and i like it better than the UR version because it runs goyf's and you can create the illusion that you play threshold g1.

[URABAHN]

But what would you cut for the third and fourth SDT. Trinket mage is still very important in this deck, since it can search SDT/DreadNought and EE (i play two EE mainboard). Having to tops, and having the ability to search for one is still as good. I would not want the 3 and 4 top in this deck, since they are dead cards when you already have one on the table. I would rather draw a trinket mage than a top when i have a top on the table.

The idea of running 2 Sensei's Divining Top because you don't want to find another one and you'd rather have Trinket Mage instead is weak. Have you seen the 2nd Day Decklists from the GP that took full advantage of Counterbalance + Top? If you did, you'll notice a whole mess of people running 4 copies of Top. Obfuscate Freely explains the power of Top a little better with these comments from the Landstill thread

At that point in the game, a redundant Top is rarely worse than the best card on top of your library.

...an extra Top will simply convert itself into the best card in the top three of your library, for just

Trade the Top for the best card on top of your deck, then shuffle it away with a fetchland. Seems pretty good, right? I'm sure you can manage to fit two more Tops in just about any build of Dreadstill.

Here's a fairly typical core set of cards for Dreadstill

3-4 Phyrexian Dreadnought
3-4 Counterbalance
2-4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Standstill
4 Stifle
4 Daze
0-1 Trickbind
3-4 Polluted Delta
3-4 Flooded Strand
4 Mishra's Factory
2-3 Trinket Mage

That's 32-40 cards before adding just about any combination of the following cards:

Volcanic Island
Tropical Island
Tarmogoyf
Tundra
Swords
Basic Island
Wasteland
Underground Sea
Dark Confidant (you can cut Standstill and Mishra's Factory if you want to rely solely on DC's card advantage)

Are you really going to tell me that in your 60, you can't find room for 4 Tops?

[whienot]

Not to mention that having 2 tops in play isn't exactly bad. It's great to be able to cash one in to counter a 1 drop while still having the ability to manipulate your top 3 cards.