[Deck] Solidarity (Reset High Tide)

[Lukas Preuss]

Well, I will be playing Solidarity at the Grand Prix in Lille (France) and I did some extensive testing with the deck.

(Subject the First) 4 Twincast is a little too much.

I agree with you. Twincast is an extremely amazing card, but it is only good if you have other good cards in hand. Having multiple Twincasts in hand can be a problem if you're missing other relevant combo pieces.

I've discovered that Thirst is less than stellar and is good in less situations than it is decent.

Right, I've discovered the same... I've never been a huge fan of Thirst for Knowledge and I don't think it should be in the deck.

I decided that the meditate should go into the main and the 8 blast plan should be instituted for the board.

Actually, I can't see a reason to change that. I'm running 4 Meditates in the main and it has never been a problem. I don't think you need one in the board. I have been trying to fit one Peer through Depths in the sideboard, which has been nice (you can wish for it on turn three, or during the combo if you need it, etc.) but I don't think it's necessary. I just like to be able to wish for some draw and since Solidarity is not as popular in Germany as it is here, Sirocco doesn't seem to be such an issue . I'm running seven Blasts in the board, which has been enough for me.

(Mysterious Subject the Third) Let me just state something right now. NEVER, EVER, EVER, cut Flash of Insight from this deck.

Yeah, I tried it and it has been pretty nice. I think 2 is the right number for the deck.

(Also Mysterious Subject the Fourth) etc.

Unfortunately, I have not been able to playtest against this new combo deck, yet... But if it proves to be viable, there have to be some changes to the sideboard, that's for sure.

(Exceedingly Mysterious Subject the Fifth) This subject addresses the issue of the possibility of cutting fetchlands from Solidarity.

Wow. That's a big one. I think fetchlands are very important to the deck. In my opinion, the deck might get seriously weaker without fetchlands, because Brainstorm wouldn't work anymore (or not that good, at least), and you would have a higher change to fizzle during the combo, because of the higher land count in the deck. Without Brainstorm, the deck would loose one of the best spells in the deck, and therefore loose consistency. There is no card that could reasonably replace Brainstorm.
I don't even think, that you might be able to consistently combo on turn four without fetchlands and Brainstorm. But this has to be tested, I can't say that for sure.
It is true, that cards like Suppression Field, Stifle and Pithing Needle can hurt Solidarity quite a lot, but I don't know if taking out fetchlands would be the right way to handle the problem.




Oh, and btw., congratulations on T8ing in that SCG tournament. :)

[Lukas Preuss]

Well, I just talked to one of my teammates on the phone (he called me, so I adressed the whole fetchland topic) and we came to the conclusion, that none of these cards you named can seriously screw you over as much as playing this deck without fetchlands and Brainstorm would. :)

Well, here is one little card by card analysis we made:

Suppression Field: Well, this might be bad, if it comes down early, but you can fetch in response to it. But seriously, you have six fetchlands in the deck, you should be able to play around this card because (and this is very important) your opponent will most likely be playing some kind of mono white deck (like Angel Stompy, White Weenie, Rabid Wombat, etc.), because otherwise Suppression Field would screw him over, as well, and these matchups are some of the easiest for Solidarity. You should still be able to win against these decks.

Shadow of Doubt (Which doesn't seem highly playable): As you said, this doesn't seem to be highly playable, so I don't think this would be too much of an issue.

Stifle: Okay, this is a mean card, but it will only 'destroy' one land. This is bad, but I don't think you should play this deck without fetchlands, just because you fear Stifle.

Pithing Needle: Okay, maybe you should be running 3 Strands and 3 Deltas, instead of 4 Strands and 2 Deltas, but this is the only change I would do to the deck to deal with Pithing Needle, because it doesn't seem to be too much of a problem, since you can still fetch in response to it and your opponent won't most likely be able to effect more than one fetchland with the Needle, anyways. He can be lucky and name the one fetchland you have in hand, but he can be unlucky, as well.

[GAUDARD]

I have found that Twincast enables me to win ontop of a counterspell or something like that.

Yes, I really like to running two Flashs.

In testing I found that the Stifle plan was very effective against the land, I can only hope that it isn't widely known. I think (and hope) most people think that if they Stifle the Brain Freeze trigger it wins them the game. The Brainstorm/Fetch has been very effective as a draw engine if you can call it that. And thinning land is necessary.

Heard about the combo deck this weekend. Have not tested w/ or against it.

I too will probably switch to 3/3 of each fetch. Most people whom I've tested with were usually surprized to find out that the deck only runs 6 fetches.

[mackaber]

This is concerning the fetchland issue:
For one thing I would like to agree with Lukas Preuss and Gaudard that the fear of fetchland hate is a little paranoid. If people start going back to 4 MD stifles then I guess cutting them might be warranted but they and Brainstorm just seem too good to cut.
On the other hand Pithing needle is rather strong against goblins and beats the living shit out of this new rich kid combo dec. It might become a major metagame conern and if we are playing fetchlands pithing needle is no longer a dead card against us.
So if you wan't to cut the brainstorms I'd suggest adding 2 lands and 4 peer through depths, and cutting twincasts and or brainfreezes in addition to brainstorm.

[Carlos El Salvador]

I'm sorry, but I might be wrong when I play my fetchlands (which I do a lot of, seeing as I think 8 is optimal). Generally, unless I already have a brainstorm in hand, or if I have no other lands in hand, I fetch right away. There are a couple reasons for this.

1) Random cards do suck (stifle, Needle, etc.)
2) It improves the overall quality of the following draws if you have nearly engouth or engouth land in your hand.

There are reasons to not fetch, but one of them is because you might draw a brainstorm. You have less of a chance of drawing a brainstorm if you don't pop fetchlands right away. As for supression feild, I can say this... Die Survival and Ravagah, die!

Onto other issues:

I don't nessisarly like thirst for knowledge, but I do think it's a decent draw spell. I also perfer having somthing in my board to wish for when I need to draw cards, and sometimes you need to be able to draw four cards, with meditate. It's a personal thing mostly. Mid combo I think is when the card is at its' best. Drawing 3 cards and discarding two lands is so nice...

Bye

[disrupted]

In my experiences playing High Tide decks in 1.5 and Legacy [since Mirrodin Block] Chalice set for 1 and 2 destroy the deck utterly. It is easily fetched by any deck with access to enlightened tutor [obv]

This being said and given the ability for any control deck to play and protect a chalice and not needing to protect a the second resolved chalice a solution is Rushing River. One card I cannot be convinced to play this deck without a copy of in the side.

Many fear the chalice as shutting down their own decks but Landstill has little to lose. If the High Tide player is shut down man lands or an angel can easily win. Rushing River is by no means competetive with COV or ET but it is valuable.

I also feel that as the meta develops a stronger hate package for this deck that bounce needs to be sided into the main not solely as a Wishable answer. I side in 2 COV 1 ET and 1 RR VS the full control hate package.

I think + 2 bounce -2 BEB effects in the sideboard gives the deck more versatility in beating the meta as a whole but I certainly understand if RDW/Gobbo is your personal meta the 8 Blast plan.

These points are certainly arguable in the "What is the very best build", but hopefully might help out another High Tide player.

If you cant cope with me calling the deck High Tide sorry. Solidarity never fit for me.

[herbig]

Rebuild is almost always going to be better than Rushing River and even then I'd say its not necessary. Double Chalice is aweful to see, but unless there is an abundance of Stax there is no reason to move away from the eight Blasts. Against any deck but Stax you're more than likely going to have time to bounce a single Chalice, and if theres two then you've really just been unlucky. There are really only two decks that use Enlightened Tutor, and if they're putting out their first Chalice on time, they aren't Tutoring up another one. You should have a Wish or Force by their second Chalice if you suspect it. I guess what I mean to say is that double Chalice is as much an issue as double Jitte.

Rule of Law and the like are most often played by slow decks, such as ATS and Landstill, which gives you enough time to Wish them away if you play correctly. Pyrostatic pillar, the fastest hate card you will see come into play, is coincidentally countered/destroyed by one of eight cards you should have in your deck.

These are just my experiences in playing Solidarity, perhaps you've seen different.

[ExpectLess]

However, that's not the point of (Also Mysterious Subject the Fourth), the real point of (Also Mysterious Subject the Fourth) is this, the possibility of adding both rebuild and annul to the board. Menendian 5-0'd Ewokslayer (although he did mulligan 4 of the 5 games) and the possibility of multiple copies of his deck existing is a little off-putting.

From what I've seen so far it looks like Solidarity just bends over to Flame Vault. It has a more protected and faster fundamental turn (on the verge of being broken, imo. It can practically beat all the tier 1 decks relatively easily with the exception of Goblins). Needless to say, I think a two card guaranteed instant kill for 5R that's tutorable, wishable, and protectable is indeed broken, but that's not the point. If this deck does survive into the metagame I think at least 4 Annul/Rebuild/Hurkyl's Recall is a must. With 10 counters pre-sideboard this deck spells a lot of trouble for Solidarity and the other tier 1 (and 2, and 3...) decks. It's like if Landstill had a turn 3 clock. [oh]

But even if we do have 4 more counters against Flame Vault though, will it be enough? And if we did remove 4 BEB from the SB, is it worth it at the expense of weaking our Goblin/Burn matchup?

I only hope they errata Time Vault again.

And as for the Chalice issue, I've never played a tournament game where an opponent has had 2 in play. With counters, bounces, the poor probability of both drawing and playing two on the opponent's part, and the scarcity of stax decks, I think it's really unlikely that double Chalice will ever be an issue. At least, certainly not enough of one to merit wasting SB slots on.

[Ewokslayer]

You are talking about a different Flame Vault deck. The blue based counter deck I don't expect to be that much of a problem as it still has to spend 4 mana in its main phase to kill and applies no other pressure. The real problem is the vault combo in the stax shell giving stax's a kill condition outside of boring the opponent to death. Not to mention vault has synergy with other components in that shell.

[Lukas Preuss]

I just checked the price for Time Vault... it's like 80 Dollars a piece.

Even if this deck proves to be as good as it seems to be, I don't think that any meta will be flooded with Time Vault combo decks... And since Goblins seems to have at least a fair game against this new combo deck, I think that it will still be played a lot in the future.

I don't think that taking out 4 Blasts for 4 annul (etc.) would be too smart... you will still be facing way more Goblins than Time Vault combo decks.

Oh, and btw, Blasts can target Flame Fusillade, as well... that's not much, but it's at least something...

[disrupted]

Regarding the issue of never seeing a double chalice have you ever played High Tide against a deck packing 4 in sideboard?

Hurkly's is an excellent suggestion and good against random arti decks also. I just prefer the versatility of Rushing River.

I play 4x Chalice in my mbc deck to combat burn. I have had two in play and hosed High Tide. I have faced two chalice VS U/W control variants and wished for my then sideboarded Rushing River to get out.

If I had a chalice in my opening hand VS high tide and an enlightened tutor I think I would Tutor 1st and Chalice second. Which is what any smart player would do. SO the example of a player hosing himself with a Chalice assumes too much. If I was going to fight U/W or Landstill variants turn 1-5 in a counter/bounce war and not go off in the process I think Im losing.

If there is no Chalice in your Metas great Im glad to here that. But the spell is played and the examples given regarding the inability of control to resolve and protect the first chalice and again their not really needing to protect the second VS the standard sideboard list are not really well thought out.

Double chalice is game without 3cc bounce. Yes or no? If it is what do you lose with bounce? BEB. 1 COV instead of 1 BEB still bounces the Warchief before attackers and still does nothing VS Piledriver. So yes the Gob/RDW matches are very slightly weakened by the loss of BEB no debate there.

As a aside there are random but good ehchantress decks in my meta from time to time and they have nearly locked me out many times. Additional bounce has helped immensly in this matchup.

I guess we are all really just debating metas. Which is great, optimal builds aside improving the options through shared experience is what its all about. All thought on the subject were appreciated!TY.

[GAUDARD]

So then how can a meta for something big like the GP in Philly be predicted?

[twipcast]

anyone still think this deck has what it takes to, i dunno, win philly? now, i may be new here, but i've read all 12 pages of debate, heard (metaphorically) the arguments, and devised my own conclusions...though i am curious as to whether or not you guys still back solidarity. i'm newer to how legacy runs, but i have moderate t1 experience, especially with combo decks, and i'd like someone to play devil's advocate against the way i've perceived the deck. correct me if i'm off, but isn't the ultimate goal of any storm deck to see more cards so as to play them to increase the storm count? i'm leading towards why some of the builds listed over the forum don't run peer through depths, thirst for knowledge, or thawing glaciers. i'll list the build i came up with after some thinking (and i actually have the deck built as well so this isn't just an exercise in theory) and i'd like some evaluation if you guys would be so kind.

4 brainstorm 4 opt
4 high tide 4 impulse
4 peer through depths 4 reset
3 brain freeze 1 twincast
3 meditate 2 thirst for knowledge
3 cunning wish 3 turnabout
4 force of will
4 flooded strand 3 thawing glaciers
10 island
SB:
4 blue elemental blast 2 hydroblast
1 meditate 1 brain freeze
1 stroke of genius 1 turnabout
1 chain of vapor 1 echoing truth
1 rebuild 1 mana short
1 twincast

i know what i think may not be the ideal, but i'm trying to get to a build i'm comfortable enough with to take philly. feedback is appreciated, but please keep it civil, i'm just trying to tweak the deck as much as i can, thanks.

btw...how do you write down an ending sig or get pics like you guys have? i'm a little more than helpless when it comes to computer literacy

[Lukas Preuss]

Well, first of all, try to fit more Twincasts and some Flash of Insights... they're great.

I wouldn't run Thawing Glaciers, because they're too slow. Against fast decks, you have to be able to go off by turn 3 or 4. This is very difficult with Glaciers in play. They're nice against slower decks, but you shouldn't have a problem against those decks anyways, so I would suggest cutting the Glaciers for fetchlands...

[GAUDARD]

anyone still think this deck has what it takes to, i dunno, win philly? now, i may be new here, but i've read all 12 pages of debate, heard (metaphorically) the arguments, and devised my own conclusions...though i am curious as to whether or not you guys still back solidarity. i'm newer to how legacy runs, but i have moderate t1 experience, especially with combo decks, and i'd like someone to play devil's advocate against the way i've perceived the deck. correct me if i'm off, but isn't the ultimate goal of any storm deck to see more cards so as to play them to increase the storm count? i'm leading towards why some of the builds listed over the forum don't run peer through depths, thirst for knowledge, or thawing glaciers. i'll list the build i came up with after some thinking (and i actually have the deck built as well so this isn't just an exercise in theory) and i'd like some evaluation if you guys would be so kind.

4 brainstorm 4 opt
4 high tide 4 impulse
4 peer through depths 4 reset
3 brain freeze 1 twincast
3 meditate 2 thirst for knowledge
3 cunning wish 3 turnabout
4 force of will
4 flooded strand 3 thawing glaciers
10 island
SB:
4 blue elemental blast 2 hydroblast
1 meditate 1 brain freeze
1 stroke of genius 1 turnabout
1 chain of vapor 1 echoing truth
1 rebuild 1 mana short
1 twincast

i know what i think may not be the ideal, but i'm trying to get to a build i'm comfortable enough with to take philly. feedback is appreciated, but please keep it civil, i'm just trying to tweak the deck as much as i can, thanks.

btw...how do you write down an ending sig or get pics like you guys have? i'm a little more than helpless when it comes to computer literacy

/me thinks it will be a very good choice for philly.
It is likely I will play a build.

Once you high tide and reset a time or two your goal is to cycle through your deck till you get to about 15 spells... then brainfreeze and stroke them out. I usually use words of wisdom though.

The best way to cycle through your deck is with flash of insight... flash for 15 + twincast = look at 30 cards, setup your next 30 draws....

Twincast has been my MVP, it allows me to go off ontop of multiple force/counterspell/siroco

18 land, w 6-8 fetch.

6-8 blasts in the board
1 stroke
1 echoing
1 chain
1 brain freeze
1 turnabout
2-4 variable slots

[ExpectLess]

It's funny, I used to run Peer through Depths when I first picked up the deck a while back because it seemed a natural inclusion, but the more you play with it, the more you'll see why it's sub-par compared to the rest of the deck. On a side note, the only real purpose of cantrips is to search for combo pieces/lands before you go off and to raise the storm count and assure redundancy in cards that you need during the combo. The point is, cantrips that can't search for land pretty much shouldn't be included in the deck. And if you are playing cards that aren't going to assure you land drops, you might as well play the best cards (see: Twincast).

Flash of Insightx2 is a must; there is so substitute for such anti-fizzling technology. Twincast also has a whole bunch of synergy with a lot of the cards in the deck. It's not that Peer through Depths or Tfk are necessarily bad, it's just that there are better cards to include for a 60 card deck.

Thawing Glaciers really are terrible for the deck. You waste a land drop and mana to get an island 2 turns later. Besides, not worrying about Wasteland is such a huge benefit for Solidarity. Adding Glaciers completely removes this advantage. Again, when I first picked up the deck I thought they were a natural inclusion, but it's just not how the deck works. The Glacier/Reset bit isn't amazing anyway, it's a 'win more' scenario.

And unless Legacy sees a surge in decks like Pox or Stax (unprobable), I think Solidarity has a great chance of stealing philly. The thing about Solidarity is that it takes an absurd amount of skill and practice to play correctly. On top of that, the deck is fairly scarce because of cards like Reset, so people generally underestimate the strength of Solidarity based on tournament results simply because it's not found in anywhere near the numbers of the other tier 1 decks. There are so many ins and outs of the deck that unless you're a veteran at it, it's not going to be a tier 1 deck. In the hands of someone experienced, however, Solidarity is easily one of the best decks in the format.

["Jeska"]

[color=#000000:post_uid9][quote:post_uid9="Deep6er"]4 High Tide
4 Reset
3 Turnabout
3 Twincast
3 Brain Freeze
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Opt
4 Impulse
2 Flash of Insight
4 Meditate
12 Island
4 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
3 Cunning Wish

Sideboard
1 Twincast
1 Stroke of Genius
1 Turnabout
1 Words of Wisdom
1 Chain of Vapor
1 Echoing Truth
1 Evacuation
4 Hydroblast
4 Blue Elemental Blast[/quote:post_uid9]
I have a local tournament tonight I wanted to know if this is the optimum build?? I have no idea of what the meta will consist of, but I built this deck just the way it is stated and I would really like an opinion of if it will work out well or not?? I know he created the deck so it has to be good, right?? I know not every deck will work in every meta but I just want a great starting point, so if I`m heading in the right direction someone please let me know, I dont want to get slaughtered. Thanx.[/color:post_uid9]

[Ewokslayer]

@ Jeska
That is the current "best" build of Solidarity.
For your local tournament you might what to scope out and see what other people are playing in order to figure out if what belongs in the board over one of the BEBs.
If there are a lot of chalices and affinity go with rebuild if not the 8 blast plan is some good. If there is a lot of Landstill you might want a second copy of a bounce spell in place of the 8th blast.

[GAUDARD]

add 1 poluted delta, subtract 1 flooded strand. They do the exact same thing so there is no advantage that I can think of for running 4-2, but a pithing needle on flooded strand can spell a problem for you.

[Deep6er]

anyone still think this deck has what it takes to, i dunno, win philly? now, i may be new here, but i've read all 12 pages of debate, heard (metaphorically) the arguments, and devised my own conclusions...though i am curious as to whether or not you guys still back solidarity. i'm newer to how legacy runs, but i have moderate t1 experience, especially with combo decks, and i'd like someone to play devil's advocate against the way i've perceived the deck. correct me if i'm off, but isn't the ultimate goal of any storm deck to see more cards so as to play them to increase the storm count? i'm leading towards why some of the builds listed over the forum don't run peer through depths, thirst for knowledge, or thawing glaciers. i'll list the build i came up with after some thinking (and i actually have the deck built as well so this isn't just an exercise in theory) and i'd like some evaluation if you guys would be so kind

If you've actually read through the 12 pages of discussion, then how is it that you've come to the conclusion that thawing glaciers and peer through depths are good in this deck? No offense but the list you've presented to us definitely seems like you've skimmed through like half of it and just figured what you think would be good without analyzing what the deck is actually supposed to do and how it's designed. I've come to the absolute conclusion and belief that anybody who says Flash of Insight does not belong in this deck does not know how this deck works. If you look back at all of MY decklists, you'll see that I never once cut Flash. Also, out of curiousity, I'm assuming that you don't think the deck can win philly because you don't think the deck is good. I've also noticed that players who don't know how to play the deck assume the deck is bad. See the line of logic here. Now, I am in no way saying that you are a bad player. All I'm saying is that, in general, players who assume this deck is bad is one of the key signs of knowing who does and who does not know how the deck plays.