Lol, I just had a crazy thought....what is T1 Hulk combo going to look like O_o.Originally Posted by Volt
Team Unicorn is too hetero for me.While this is close it's still wrong. Every one knows it's an orgy of unicorns.******s?
TeaM NOVA for life.
Sorry, but I had to give a quick comment on this:
I went 25-15 against Suntower the other night (with the post FS version, which get's hit the most by Chalice @ 0).
I really don't think that validates as "viable", when this would become Tier1.
Ok funny thing, I have just tested about 10 games on MWS and this is what happens:
1) 6/10 decks I played were mirror
2) I won 4 out of the 6 mirrors (not so relevant)
3) The other 4 decks i played cussed me out and left
Seriously, I don't mind combo decks that can win turn 1, but the sheer resiliance of flash makes it unbelievable broken. Sure I had games where the deck sucked and all I drew were walls and marauders, but the combo is very hard to stop.
Even if you draw 4 walls/marauders and 1 disciple you can still go off! This doesn't happen in combo decks that need to keep cards in the lib. Also, this deck doesn't rely on draws like belcher, solidarity, iggy etc.
All you need to win are:
Flash/Mystical 8/60 so there is a 90% chance you will draw into 1 IN YOUR FIRST HAND
Is this math correct? 8/60 + 8/59 +8/58 +... +8/54
Hulk/Summoner 8/60 same as above
Protection 7-8/60
The deck needs 2 cards out of 16 main deck cards to win, which is so fricking easy to get when your playing brainstorms etc.
I find the sheer amount of prejudice in this thread to be frightening right now, considering that it mostly roots in the overexcited posts on the first couple pages from people that hadn’t even goldfished 50 times, let alone tuned numbers or playtested. I would like to see everyone here who has an actual interest in seeing what this deck is capable of before flying of the handles like the world is coming down start a new thread with content restricted to development. Then, after we have an actual understanding of its capabilities and have exposed them to the format in actual tourny setting and seen its capabilities in actual performance, we can restart the debate of "fairness." Remember meandeck tendrils, the super fast deck that was supposed to be the end all be all of fast combo? I’m sure most of you do not because it died the second people really tried the deck in a competitive format.
This deck will never win 25% of the time before you get an upkeep. It won't. Anyone who actually put the deck together and tested an even slightly realistic list will realized its more like 15% tops. This deck has tons of trouble with thresh and meddling mage in general. It isn't unbeatable. Yeah it whoops on board control and aggro that relies on a chant or two to try and stop combo, but come on how is that unfair, remember the metagame wheel at all? Everyone just relax, this deck may not even ever come to have a chance. This is really unfortunate, this deck may have ended up a decent part of the meta, finally putting goblins in its place.
Now to some more specific responses:
1. People hated affinity because of its resiliency to hate. You had to go to huge lengths to beat the deck if you didn’t play it. If any deck should remind you of affinity and piss you off in this format it is goblins.
2. You people are also forgetting how much maindeck hate you have to play for goblins right now. How many times have you looked at a list and said, you need to find room for pyroclasm in the main or something like that? Or you need a first turn answer to lackey. Combo is on the rise and its pushing aggro back, so now you can start hating on combo more since combo is hating on aggro for you. This is called metagame evolution and it means the format it growing. THANK G-D!
3. So aggro is brought down a tier, aggro control takes a step up, and now you will note that this gives a significant niche for control to make a comeback and actually be a force in this environment.
I guess what I am saying is no one has demonstrated this deck is broken yet, I have seen no reliable testing results. And more importantly, real tournament experience and results with a deck suggests its actual power, not a bunch of random games where all you remember are the times the combo player drew the nuts. As the tournament goes on the ability to be consistant and outplay your opponent lets a good player win a tournament. Combo generally does not allow a player to outplay an opponent always relying on the strength of draws and the deck it self. You cannot draw better then an opponent who is prepared for you every game. In conclusion, this deck, while good and easy to play, probably won’t be dominating the scene every tournament simply because it doesn’t give you enough interactive ability to outplay your opponent. Even a terrible player can duress and force your flash and lay down a mage and rife it to victory.
And hanni, it is funny how often we are on the same page. Your list is starting to look like mine which I goldfished a good 100 times and refined into it. The one ESG is great, definitely add it. The extra merchant scroll adds some hand stabilization, not every hand is broken kids, many of them are not at all. The deck needs 11 dead cards after all.. I was having a lot of trouble vs. thresh with white and pretty much any deck running mage and counters because it comes down so quickly and getting double protection is not easy to establish before turn two. Splashing red in the board for REB has been pretty good for that matchup.
Chalice doesn't stop this deck unless set at 2. All it shuts off at 0 is Summoner's Pact, since Pact of Negation is one of the first things you would board out against a deck packing Chalice. And this deck will win before Chalice 2 more often than not.
The deck splashes green and sideboards Research, which I'm already doing. Then it goes Research, Mystical Tutor, Untap, Kill you. Next?What happens if this deck loses it's Flash to Extirpate?
Oh noes! Not Trinisphere! Whatever shall we do?! Now we must draw ANOTHER LAND to go off! Merciful heavens!Toss Trinisphere in Angel Stompy.
For two reasons. Goblin Lackey unanswered is not an auto-win against certain decks. Flash resolved is. Secondly, this deck can counter Stifle and Duress easily, or simply kill you before you can play them.If I'm forced to run MD answers to Goblin Lackey, whether it be StP or whatever, why should I not be forced to run answers like maindeck Stifle or Duress?
You'll become convinced in time. I promise. And no, it really isn't beatable by a ton of existing decks. In fact, there aren't three decks in the Legacy Metagame or Legacy Open forum that are 50/50 against this deck. There might not be one. I'm 5-2 against UGW Threshold, 4-2 against UBW Fish, and 5-1 against motherfucking Red Death. These are all top decks with supposedly incredible combo match results. What's more, I'm completely undefeated (4-0/8-0, and 3-0/6-0) in both games and matches against both Goblins and RGBSA respectively. Faerie Stompy, Iggy Pop, Enchantress and Solidarity are next on my testing gauntlet. I don't anticipate any of them to pose much of a problem sans maybe Iggy.I'm not saying entirely that I'm for keeping the deck around, but I'm not convinced that this deck is the be-all end-all of the format. It's definitely beatable by a ton of the existing decks out there...
Hulk Flash is like the new Thunderbluff, only this time Anaba Grunt is real, blue, an instant, and the matchups aren't a joke. Therefore the only match I intend to be playtesting if Flash remains as it is is the Hulk Flash mirror, because that's all you'll need to win a tournament.
Well, I'm not really worried whether it gets banned or not. I wasn't trying to come off as wanting the deck to stay legal. I was simply saying that I'm not concerned if they do keep it legal.
I realize that its a 2 card 2 mana combo that is more resilient than the current combo decks. This is clearly very strong. I don't think it's broken to the point where everything is going to either lose to it or be a mere 50/50 at best after maindecking a ton of hate cards. I realize absolutely no one agrees with me on this. It doesn't matter as it's likely going to be banned soon anyway due to the sheer volume of players who are completely against it being legal.
I halfway agree with you. This deck is broken, and it is going to completely change the format. As a goblins player, the only time I've beaten it is when it has beaten itself. The deck is going to be a monster and will be one of the most played decks ever if flash doesn't get changed. The deck reminds me of tinker in extended before it got banned. Either you were playing tinker or a dedicated tinker hate deck. Decks designed to hate out a deck will not be a coin flip, they will rape hulk flash, but have bad matchups against the rest of the field. Similar to Fish in type 1, beats the tier 1 and loses to everything else.
BluffYouOut.com Currently Under Construction, But Coming Soon!
Team Necro: Playing Decks You Wish You Built First.
The Most Consistant + Inconsistant Magic Player in History.
"Has anyone seen the latest episode of Lock This Thread?" Peter Rotten
Don't take the agressiveness the wrong way. We are in no way mad at you, and I only wish I could be as calm. This deck scares me because of what it can do. It angers me because the best possible anti-Hulk deck probably can't do better than 60-40 against it post board.
How would you like it if a combo was made that said all decks not running black cannot compete in the metagame? Basically Hulk combo says that if you don't run Blue in your deck you lose over a 3 game set 90% of the time. Dragon could be stoped by a well timed Naturalize for god sakes. And Crypt could be run by ever deck in the format. Budget decks are no longer viable in this format because they practially Require FoW to be competitive. And stax does NOTHING at all against hulk combo.
Team Unicorn is too hetero for me.While this is close it's still wrong. Every one knows it's an orgy of unicorns.******s?
TeaM NOVA for life.
Well, Belcher has been beating decks like Threshold occasionally with turn 1 kills. No one has complained about that. I realize it folds to cards like Pithing Needle and such. It's still another opposing combo deck, in combination with the rise in TES and even Aluren, that's pushing the meta into heavier combo anyway. You still need to pack cards like Duress or Chalice to deal with these decks anyway.
This deck is obviously a stronger combo deck than those decks. This deck still has it's own issues. It does not combo off turn 1 every game. Actually, I've had very few turn 1 kills for the amount of games I've either goldfished or played against another player. I realize the deck isn't fine-tuned yet. It still has it's own issues. It can fight through hate. It can also lose to hate.
Pact of Negation doesn't answer disruption pre-combo while you're setting up. I realize the deck can run it's own Duress or Daze or whatever. This makes it pretty strong. The problem I see though is that if you try to add too much disruption, there's not really a whole lot of leverage with which you can remove cards for without seriously hurting the combo.
Trinisphere doesn't wreck Flash, but it sure does wreck the setup cards. Pacts, Mystical Tutor, Brainstorm. It was just a suggestion to strengthen a deck like Angel Stompy, which would also have access to cards like Glowrider, True Believer, and Children of Korlis.
Tacosnape, you said you've been beating all the aggro/control decks with this deck. I'd like to playtest with you.
I don't think you have to play a deck that either beats this and loses to everything else. I think it's extremely easy to build decks that answer this while answering other things. The cards that effect this deck effect other decks as well.
The deck is definitely Tier 1 material.
Whatever the case though, I'm done trying to argue or defend my points. I'm not getting anywhere doing so, so I'm just going to watch you all continue and post 'OMGZ this deck can't lose!'
Belcher scares me very little since it is actually stoped by FoW, even if they go for the turn 1 ETW kill. Also ETW needs 2-3 turns to kill which means that clasm, EE, tabernacle and other cards can answer it. I have tested against belcher with Thresh and have done fine against it. Although before Hulk-flash was revealed we felt that Belcher might be a degenerate combo deck as well. I can say with certainty that it has nothing on Hulk Flash.
Team Unicorn is too hetero for me.While this is close it's still wrong. Every one knows it's an orgy of unicorns.******s?
TeaM NOVA for life.
Having goldfished some more with this deck, I've come up with a version that seems to be as strong on the play as it is on the draw in terms of "first turn" combo, whether it's your first turn or theirs. This goes off an obscene number of times on turn zero or turn one, although the more common turn zero play is Mystical ==> missing combo piece, be it Pact, Flash, or countermagic. The deck then wins from there. For reference:
// Lands
3 Island
4 Gemstone Caverns
3 Polluted Delta
3 Flooded Strand
// Creatures
4 Protean Hulk
4 Shifting Wall
3 Phyrexian Marauder
4 Disciple of the Vault
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
// Spells
4 Pact of Negation
4 Summoner's Pact
4 Lotus Petal
4 Flash
4 Mystical Tutor
1 Chain of Vapor
3 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
If I had to come up with a sideboard right now, it would probably have another 3 Chain of Vapors (goodbye Needle, Leyline, Chalice, or whatever) and Daze (lulz @ Thresh). The rest...dunno. But this deck is frighteningly consistent.
This is the message I sent to Forsythe:
Even with that email, I already bought the cards for this deck.Mr. Forsythe,
First of all, I'd like to introduce myself, in order to provide some scope and context to the following message. My name is Adam Barnello, I'm a 24 year old Electrical Engineer from Syracuse, NY. I've been playing this lovely game since Revised, and focus primarily on the Legacy format. I moderate the fansite mtgTheSource.com, known as the primary resource for Legacy development online. My handle on the site is Mr. Nightmare, for reference. This is my first email to a member of the WotC staff, and I don't take it lightly, by any means. I write to you today out of concern for the future of the Legacy format, due in no small part to the change in errata of the card Flash.
Recently, you've removed the power level errata on the card Flash, from Mirage and 6th Edition. I understand the policy behind the change, and I'm generally quite pleased with it, as I believe that cards should (for the most part) do what they say they do. In fact, since the policy was introduced, I've done my best to make tournament level decks with almost all of those who’s errata has been removed, to varying degrees of success. That said, something needs to be done about Flash.
Before the B&R lists of "Type 1" and "Type 1.5" were separated, those of us playing 1.5 had access to a combo deck that could consistently win on turn 2, with ample disruption and protection, in the form of Worldgorger Dragon. Upon splitting the lists, you at Wizards realized this was unacceptable for the format's health, and banned both the Dragon and Bazaar of Baghdad to remove it from the format. This was a correct decision, which I supported then and now. The threat of the "unstoppable" combo deck has crept up since then, but never in such a manner that it couldn't be dismissed as hype and knee-jerk reactions. Again, things have changed. Dragon was a difficult deck to win with through hate such as Tormod's Crypt, Swords to Plowshares, Blue Elemental Blast, Seal of Cleansing, etc. The new combo (Flash Protean Hulk, searching for 4 Disciple of the Vault, and up to 8 zero-mana artifact creatures such as Shifting Wall and Phyrexian Marauder), backed by Force of Will, Daze, and - post Future Sight - Pact of Negation, can be disrupted by exactly 1 card (Trickbind). No player receives priority once the Flash has resolved, before over 20 Disciple triggers are put on the stack. With the combination of Mystical Tutor, and again post Future Sight, Summoner's Pact, this combo can reliably win on turn 1 or two, using no more than land drops as acceleration. It's a 2 card combo, costing 2 mana, at instant speed. Some proposed builds even use Gemstone Caverns and Spirit Guides to win before their opponent's first turn.
As I mentioned before, many combo decks have been developed which are fast enough to win on turn 1. Most of them have been vulnerable to disruption from their opponent in the form of Force of Will, Tormod’s Crypt, or even Chalice of the Void at zero or 1 counter. This deck has access to 8 first turn free counters, more if you include Daze, and is virtually bullet proof when it comes to standard anti-combo cards such as Chalice, Pyrostatic Pillar, and so on. Comparing this Flash deck with Dragon, you gain speed and resiliency, while losing the prohibitive cost of Bazaar. I cannot come up with a justification for the banned list to exist as it does right now, while a combo as degenerate as this remains intact in the same format.
If this deck is allowed to exist as it stands today, Aggro decks stand to become irrelevant in the Legacy format. They cannot utilize cards which will allow them to compete with this deck on any level. The goal (as I understand it) is to expand the options for feasible decks, and this deck will do just the opposite.
I won’t make any recommendations as to how you should answer this impending problem, but I wanted to be clear that there is trouble brewing on the horizon. Unfortunately, GP Columbus will begin on the day before Future Sight becomes legal, and with it 2 cards that very realistically push this deck into the realm of “unfairly good,” so that event won’t be a sounding board for the deck. However, in all the time I’ve been an active member of the Legacy community, never before have I been so concerned by a deck. Please, Mr. Forsythe, consider the ramifications of a deck this inherently broken being legal in Legacy, and consider what actions should be taken.
For reference, here is a potential deck list, based on discussion at the Source:
// Lands
2 Flooded Strand
1 Tropical Island
4 Gemstone Caverns
3 Polluted Delta
3 Island
// Creatures
4 Phyrexian Marauder
3 Shifting Wall
4 Disciple of the Vault
3 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Protean Hulk
// Spells
4 Mystical Tutor
1 Land Grant
1 Chain of Vapor
4 Brainstorm
4 Summoner's Pact
4 Pact of Negation
4 Force of Will
3 Daze
4 Flash
Thank you for giving me the time to express my concern.
Sincerely,
Adam Barnello
maybe someone should post Forsythe's email for the lazy.
When in doubt, mumble.
When in trouble, delegate.
I just went to one of his articles and hit reply.
Can we sign a petition?
(I also already have the entire deck built short of the eight pacts, which I'm proxying out and not pre-ordering until I see what happens with Flash.)
I lack the patience to read this entire thread. However, from testing the list in the original post and the list posted by Nihil, I have come up with this list, which is running very smoothly for me.
// Lands
5 Island
3 Polluted Delta
3 Flooded Strand
2 Underground Sea
// Creatures
1 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Phyrexian Marauder
3 Shifting Wall
4 Disciple of the Vault
3 Protean Hulk
1 Street Wraith
// Spells
4 Brainstorm
4 Flash
4 Force of Will
2 Merchant Scroll
1 Chain of Vapor
4 Mystical Tutor
4 Summoner's Pact
4 Pact of Negation
4 Lotus Petal
This is, very pointedly, the exact same as Nihil's list, except -1 Island, and +1 Street Wraith. I made this change because I love Street Wraith in this deck, and because I find myself mana flooded more often than mana screwed, I dropped a land to make room. And the list is freaking sweet. This deck is absolutely broken.
Referring to the art on Stasis:
I'm still sort of confused as to why people want to include a singleton Street Wraith in the lists. You can search for it with Summoner's Pact, and at a 1-of you don't see it that often. I realize that it makes Mystical Tutor better, though.
Is it just there to push the deck down to 59 cards? If it is, I understand, but outside of that I can't really see any use for it.
Team Info-Ninjas: Ambition is a poor excuse for not having enough sense to be lazy.
My Videos: Chiron Beta Prime, Flickr, Re: Your Brains
The fact that Street Wraith improves Mystical Tutor is very important when your protection and your final (and thus most important) tutor need to be used to win THAT TURN. You dont always have the time to mystical tutor at EOT, and it's not like Street Wraith is ever a dead card.
Referring to the art on Stasis:
That's awesome, Nightmare. Maybe you can actually get R&D to pay some actual attention to this format.
I don't even think the list Kreiger and I were testing the other night was attempting for a turn 0 win, and the list was still incredibly strong. Hell, we weren't even using the new pacts, just straight up legal as is. Needless to say, it was dumb.
-Steve
How come it needs to be a holiday to bang noobslayer's sister?
There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)
