For those of you running 4c landstill with loam, how is life from the loam working out as a 1/1 split between loam and crucible? Does the additional green card throw off your mana base? How often do you use the dredge, does it ever hurt?
I've thought of running the 1/1 split but loam doesnt seem very synergetic in landstill, as the dredge seems like it would hurt more than help.
Loam is amazing in Landstill. It is better then crucible because if they counter it or make you discard it, you can simply dredge it back to your hand. The only advantage crucible has over loam is that it doesn't require green mana. I think that if you are running green, most people consider a 1-1 split or a solitary loam the way to go.Originally Posted by Burr
I only dredge loam if i need to refill my hand with lands or need to recur manlands in order to chump block for a while (Most man-lands seem to get STP'ed unfortunately :( ). Normally, it isn't hard to find a green source if you have a stable mana-base.
But is dredging really worth it? how often do you see yourself dredging away a deed or maybe a needed stp.
I think you need to read this.
"Good, bad, I'm the guy with the gun." --Ash
I wont go into great detail but I can tell you if you have life from the loam dredging and crucible in play odds are your winning the game and only looking for more mishra's factories.
Also LFTL allows you to dig for academy ruins + EE while maintaining your land drops per tern AND allows you to hit that one of crucible via ruins, or tolaria west into ruins. LFTL is priceless card advantage and it makes me very sad not to run the cycling lands as one ofs, but its still incredibly good without them.
Like I said MANY times, if your making your land drops every turn VERY few decks in the format can deal with that. The exception I would think to this rule might be with combo decks, and 43 land.dec, they just out run you anyways.
See Myth #2. Increasing your hand size by returning lands from your graveyard isn't card advantage per se, with the exception of Mishra's Factories/Nantuko Monasteries (which double as threats).
That could be why it's CA. It's even better if you run Wasteland (not that that works in 4c)
LftL IS CA per se. When you are recurring your lands and making a land drop every turn playing fetchlands and thining your library you have access to more cards beacuse the threats-lands ratio in your library is greater. Also you are playing lands every turn and you can play more spells beacuse you have more maná. Also you haven´t to retain lands in your hand with Brainstorm and you can put it in your library to fetch it away, transforming your Brainstorms into Ancestral Recall. Also if you are recurring Wastelands you are obtaining CA beacuse you are nullifing a card of your oponent with one of the lands you are recurring with the loam, and the other 2 are for free.
But LftL isn't in landstill to lock your oponent with Wasteland. It is an useful resource, invaluable against Land denial decks, beacuse every hand with fetchland + another land and Lftl is almos auto-keep. It also help to don't go without win conditions beacuse you have to cycle your Decrees for early defense and your factories were destroyed. I played a lone Lftl for this utility for some months now, and I were very very well in tournaments. I haven´t changed a card for three months now and I went 37 wins, 5 draws and 4 losses on tournament rounds.
I run this list:
4 Force of Will
4 Counterspell
4 Brainstorm
4 Standstill
3 Cunning Wish
2 Stifle
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Humility
2 Decree of Justice
1 Eternal Dragon
1 Life from the Loam
3 Pernicious Deed
1 Engineered Explosives
2 Wasteland
4 Mishra's Factory
1 Plains
1 Island
1 Scrubland
1 Savannah
2 Tropical Island
2 Underground Sea
4 Tundra
2 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
SB:
4 Meddling Mage
4 Extirpate
3 Engineered Plague
1 Blue Elemental Blast
1 Pulse of the fields
1 Dismantling Blow
1 Slaughter Pact
Crucible isn't a very good card in Landstill. Sure, it is good and very powerful sometimes, but it is slow and not so dificult to stop. It is a win more card beacuse if your are in the late game you will win the game with or without crucible.
See Myth #3: The Relevance of Land Thinning (or more accurately, the irrelevance of land thinning).
Issues of "does returning lands from your graveyard to your hand constitute card advantage" aside, I should point out that I'm absolutely all for Loam's inclusion in Landstill -- I run my singleton copy alongside a Crucible (and have even been considering switching out said Crucible for a second Loam). Loam is undeniably a powerful spell and should certainly be included in any green-splash build of the deck.....but saying that Loam is a source of card advantage on top of all its other benefits is misleading. As Mr Feldman says regarding Myth #2:
So sure, after you play a Loam, you'll typically have 3 extra cards in hand at the cost of 1 (the Loam). Technically this is card advantage, but it's no substitute for true card advantage, where you've increased the number of business spells in hand.
End pseudo-card advantage rant.
Please note that we now have a separate thread devoted to UW(x) Landstill builds. Direct all appropriate discussion there.
Also note that I'm drafting the UBGx (Deed and 4c) intro. Once we have both up, this thread will be closed and the discussions can continue in that appropriate place.
What would you guys say are the "tricks" to playing 4c landstill? When is the best time to play/crack deed? I'm just picking up 4c and dont have many ppl to test with, so your guys tips would be great!
After reading the whole point of card advantage by using it to get fetchlands and stuff is competly untrue, this person is turning math into myth just because he didn't have enough to write about, if you don't believe me do that math, if you have 40 cards in the deck and need a deed and theres only 2 left, you have a 5%, but if you play a fetch land and fetch now you have only 39 cards and your chances are 5.2% and it also it decreases the chances of getting a land from say 15 lands to 14 which would decrease by .2%, and i'm not sure about a bunch of you always worried about having land drops, having more than about 6-8(not counting factories) is more than enough for me and I dont want to see another land. yes it doesnt seem much but after fetchin 10 times and recuring fetches, it does add up and I would take that 1%any day of the week if it means I win the one extra game that gets me more money
I never said that the top benefit of LftL is that it is a card advantage source. I rarely dredge more than two or three times in a game LftL, I use it to asure my land drops for some turns. Sure, LftL isn't a recursive Ancestral Recall, but it is an utility than asures you some land drops and mana stability in a deck that no loses games when you can play a land per turn and you haven't color-mana screws. But it provees card advantage, it provees your three lands, three cards to Brainstorm away, or three lands than you don`t have to hold with Brainstorm beacuse you already have plenty of lands in hand.
But see, then you're falling into the myth that life loss from fetchlands doesn't matter, which also isn't true after fetching 10 times.
You're right, fetchlands do perform some thinning, and over time will decrease your chances of drawing unneeded lands. However, playing extra fetches for this purpose is poor deck design because it unnecessarily hurts your game against aggro. Play them for color fixing, wasteland-protection, and shuffling after brainstorm, NOT thinning.
Perhaps Tacosnape should write the intro for the deck, as he seems to be the best qualified and has a lot of experience with the general arch-type of American landstill (i.e. more blue based with deed et all).
Except that A. I wasn't asked, B. Bardo's already writing it and he's probably a better writer than I am, C. I don't generally post in Landstill threads anymore unless my name's mentioned. And imho, we'll be lucky if the new UBGx thread doesn't degenerate into endless back and forth questions about whether or not the white splash is worth it and whether or not you should run Tarmogoyf, and stifle (no pun intended) any relevant conversation about the deck.
Your vote of confidence is appreciated, though.:)
I would just like to say before this thread closes I have learned SO much from alot of you. From tacosnape to Agentfunk to der. You are all great deck builders and theorists from what I have seen. Never have I fealt so comfortable with an entire metagame of decks besides for 1 and done so well that I seariously can't believe more people don't try to abuse these same concepts.
On a side note I will be at gp indi playing the side event and I will hope to see you all there. "mostly because landstill mirrors are the best :("
For the innovations
For the decklists
For the theory
I thank you all.
-Joel Ferris
aka
mossivo1986
Wish I could actually go to the gp side event and play against compotent players but I can't considering I really don't have that much money. ;)
Also I appreciate your comments about me but to be honest I think Der Imaginure Freund is better then me in all aspects of building landstill decklists. Of course he also spend hours testing his UWb landstill list so that is the large part on why I think he is better then me in that respect.
DIF also has access to much more legacy tournaments then I do as well and to me that is a large plus.
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