Well to be frank, I don't think disk is necassary in a 4c landstill build that runs pernicious deeds especially if your going to run 3-4 hydroblasts/blue elemental blasts as well in the sideboard.Originally Posted by mossivo1986
Blue elemental/hydroblasts are by in large much more cost efficient against Alix Hatfield's moonthresh list(which is an brilliant deck by the way) and dragonstompy then disk.
I personally think the nevin's disks are a waste of the slots in the board in that respect. This is all my opinions though but if the disks work fine for you I wouldn't change it.
Team Hammafist!
I don't like sideboarding Disk. I think Disk competes with Engineered Explosives' slot. They essentially fulfill the same purpose. Disk is much more powerful and better against Blood Moon. Engineered Explosives can generally deal with things quicker and will save your ass against Warrens. Each is an artifact designed to be able to deal with any nonland permanent you run across.
Yeah sideboarding disks seems like a waste. Personally, if you want to run disk probably would be better to run it in the main instead. I think disk and pernicious deed now I think about it could supplement each other quite nicely.
Last edited by Mister Agent; 02-18-2008 at 10:20 AM.
Team Hammafist!
Enlightened Tutor could always be used to grab any number of things, ranging from Deed/EE/Disk/Shackles/Humility to Standstill/Crucible to, I guess, CB/Top if you run it (though I don't, and wouldn't necessarily suggest it). I wouldn't run it as more than a 2-of, though, and I wouldn't replace FoF with it. I could see it replacing Living Wish in Taco's list if you didn't want to go that route. In mossivo's list you could replace the Spell Snares (which I think are pretty weak anyway), and drop an EE for Disk.
With all respect to wasteland and the gentlemen who's name I can't spell from germany I am officially calling the version of landstill that I play "my" landstill list. Not that it's anything really innovative from the others, but I really get sick of telling people that it's not my list when I have changed it around and I have made some adjustments as I see fit.
That said i'll bring up the list for the last time to explain something.
// Deck file for Magic Workstation (http://www.magicworkstation.com)
// Lands
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
1 [UNH] Plains
1 [UNH] Island
1 [TE] Wasteland
1 [TSP] Academy Ruins
2 [ON] Polluted Delta
4 [4E] Mishra's Factory
1 [B] Scrubland
1 [B] Savannah
2 [B] Tropical Island
2 [B] Underground Sea
4 [B] Tundra
// Creatures
1 [SC] Eternal Dragon
// Spells
2 [TE] Humility
2 [SC] Decree of Justice
1 [RAV] Life from the Loam
1 [FD] Crucible of Worlds
2 [FD] Engineered Explosives
2 [JU] Cunning Wish
4 [B] Swords to Plowshares
3 [AP] Pernicious Deed
4 [IA] Brainstorm
4 [OD] Standstill
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [B] Counterspell
2 [DIS] Spell Snare
// Sideboard
SB: 1 [TSP] Return to Dust
SB: 1 [FUT] Slaughter Pact
SB: 1 [IN] Fact or Fiction
SB: 4 [PLC] Extirpate
SB: 1 [DS] Pulse of the Fields
SB: 3 [UL] Engineered Plague
SB: 4 [B] Red Elemental Blast
Bezerker brought up the spell snare slot replacing it with enlightened tutor in my list. I think this is not a good idea. For multiple reasons. "litterally."
The one thing I look at when I see landstill lists are the numbers. I always shoot for those first.
In cast your wondering:
10 counters
4 counterspell
4 force
2 spell snare
10 draw/tutor
4 brainstorm
4 standstill
2 cunning wish
8-11 removal
4 swords to plowshars
3 perniscious deed
2 Engineered explosives
2 humility "Yes I count humility as removal."
24 lands
6 fetches
10 duals
2 basics
4 mishra
1 wasteland
1 academy ruins
win conditions
4 mishra
1 eternal dragon
1 academy ruins
2 decree of justice
Now to explain. The stability of this deck revolves around the card drawing meeting answers. In any given hand your likely to have a mix of counters removal land and draw spells. All of which are in vast numbers throughout the deck. The synergies are enough to draw into even more cards. Removing the spell snare/ stifle slot would make the deck alittle more inconsistent. On the draw I would have to depend more on swords to plowshars, counterspell, force of will, ect. ect. ect. Spell snare offers an effective answer that is not likely a dead card as most decks usually have a 2 drop thats a big deal. I ask you have you ever spell snared a bob or a goyf or a challice set to one. It's a big deal. Stifle is also a great card and in any major tourney I would probobly run stifle over spell snare, but my meta has alot of good two drop spells that need some counterin, not too mention the random threshhold players who drop on by. Overall the fit could not be replaced with a card like enlightened tutor because it would slow me down too much and bog up my draws. It's nice utility for answers, but I already have a wishboard. If anything id run a 1 of enlightened tutor in the sb as a wish target for x amount of answers, but that really is reaching a bit far. I'd rather play a fof if I had that much mana, which is wy I run it lmao.
Another thing is he was talking about dropping an ee for a 1 of disk, which I dont agree with either. The cost of EE is why it's soo efficient, anything. So I really don't think at best a 5th turn 1 of if it's in your hand and if it's the optimal play is your best bet.
thank you for your help though. It is appreciated. Sorry if it came out soo negative.
I honestly don't think there is a point to call it your landstill deck since obviously it does not help you in any shape or form. The source and any other magic forums are for to share ideas.
I think you should test the list out because only testing will truely tell what slots are weak versus the strong card slots in matchups. I personally think Wasteland's 4c landstill is quite fine but the changes that you make suppose to only benefit you in your metagame. However, if I was going to go to a big event that has an unknown meta I would probably take either taco's old 4c landstill or wasteland's list. Likewise, I think taco's old 4c landstill list which contained both an singleton loam and stifles is consistent and resilient.
Team Hammafist!
why don't we put Taco's and Wasteland list in the first post?
It can improve the discussion since we can start also from those lists..
Also: do you think is better run Garruk or Crucible for recurring threat?
Don't you think that EE is better than Living Wish + tool for cleaning the board?
I am new to this deck, and I also don't understand why Diabolic Edict > Innocent Blood and EE < Punishment .. can you please help?
Thank You all.
Excuse my errors, English is not my native language. I'm Italian.
NOBODY expects the Spanish Inquisition! Our chief weapon is surprise...surprise and fear...fear and surprise....
Hello,
I'm following this forum for a while now, but never posted here. I'm not new to legacy, but I never played a control deck, so be patient, please...
I'm thinking about putting a landstill variant together. I still haven't decided which one (probably it will be this 4c list or UWb Cunning Wish), but I'd like to ask some general questions:
- What are the good matches any Landstill should have?
- What are the bad matches?
- How to play against combo? Should I mulligan untill I find FoW?
- Is every quick aggro (Goblins, Affinity) a bad match?
- Finally, any tip to help my decision between Taco's list and UWb?
By the way, I agree that the first post should be updated, and as this is an archetype forum, it should have some different versions - UGBw, UWb, UR, etc.
Sorry for the noob questions, and thanks for the help!
Last edited by lebarion; 02-19-2008 at 02:38 PM. Reason: Put a link to the lists
I don't mean to call people out on not reading what they're saying, but I've seen two or three lists that list "Red Elemental Blast" in their board. Shouldn't it be BEB, or Hydroblast? I seriously don't want to be a giant asshat and be like, "Lol u didnt typ3 w311" or something, but I don't want to miss out on savage tech (if there is any to be had).
The E.P.I.C. Syndicate: I mean, if they play a lullaby for babies they should at least play the Monster Mash when somebody dies.
My IRL list has 2 hydro 2 reb in it to fix any confusion. Although I did just pick up a set of original japanese reb so i'm just playing with those right now.
Hello,
I'm following this forum for a while now, but never posted here. I'm not new to legacy, but I never played a control deck, so be patient, please...
I'm thinking about putting a landstill variant together. I still haven't decided which one (probably it will be Taco's list or UWb Cunning Wish), but I'd like to ask some general questions:
- What are the good matches any Landstill should have?
- What are the bad matches?
- How to play against combo? Should I mulligan untill I find FoW?
- Is every quick aggro (Goblins, Affinity) a bad match?
- Finally, any tip to help my decision between Taco's list and UWb?
By the way, I agree that the first post should be updated, and as this is an archetype forum, it should have some different versions - UGBw, UWb, UR, etc.
Sorry for the noob questions, and thanks for the help!
Good matches (really matters on the list your playing but if its tacos ill try to answer this for you)
Combo
Threshold (this comes down to the experience and the actual amount of skill each players have.)
50/50 against a great goblins player
50/50 against the red aggro decks (RGBW, RGW)
Rogue decks
Weakness (and as I mentioned already this really comes down to the variant)
43 land.dec (worst enemy)
Eva green (really comes down to variant)
Many decks that run extirpate main board you will have problems (but can be worked around if you’re a good landstill player and only comes with practice)
Many decks that have loam recursion (but can also be beaten with experience and sideboard.)
Against the combo It would really come down to which version you are running, if you are running the 4c version(which I still feel is the best version) then no u should not mulligan till you get a fow mainly because many of the combo decks can get around it. And if you go down you are only making your chances of getting that fow and another blue card rarer and rarer only to get yourself with a bad hand and always lose, if you don’t get a fow in hand, usually combo players will not go for the risk of first turn if they can't get around fow, and many of the decks use creatures to kill u with warrens or zombie tokens which can easily be stopped with a deed or explosives, and In my list I also run 3 maindeck stifles that stop combo in their tracks first game.
About the quick aggro decks, it really comes down to variant, my list which is alot closer to bardo's list has a great matchup against quick aggro decks, because you can hang with the early stuff with your own then win late, but decks more like tacos, uses his deck to stall the early game till it gets to late to win which is a lot harder to do. (But can still be done)
If the list of tacos you are using is the 4c version then definitely the 4c version. You should choose between tacos and bardos list.
do you think Mutavault can replace Monastery making a 3 Colours Landstill more viable?
I am asking this since I think that White/4th color in Landstill is like being 30 meters tall:
You are stronger but everyone can understand why / is lookin at you.. Maybe focusin on 3 colours and adding some basic lands we can make this deck a little more solid (4 Basic lands is better than 0 )
Last edited by Rinello; 02-21-2008 at 08:29 AM. Reason: N00bs question, I found answers pages ago.
Excuse my errors, English is not my native language. I'm Italian.
NOBODY expects the Spanish Inquisition! Our chief weapon is surprise...surprise and fear...fear and surprise....
Honestly, I've never tested Garruk, but Monestary is a house. He's got a huge first striking body that trumps basically anything you're going to encounter (except Goyf, but that's what the Swords, Deeds, and EEs are for...) and is immune to sorcery speed removal. I currently run 2 in my 25-count landbase. Sometimes the color requirement is kind of hard to meet until later in the game and the thresh requirement sometimes sucks, but as a tertiary win condition (Goyf and Factory take spot 1 and 2), I've never really had a problem with it, and it's won me plenty of games.
I've never tested Ruins either, and I'm pretty sure I'm glad I haven't. 3 EE are my only artifacts, and with only 1 Ruins, I don't expect the "neat" interaction to happen all that often, even less at the right times. In fact, I expect it would screw me over in my opening hand more often than not, and be a completely dead draw where a Monestary would have helped. Unless you're playing other artifacts (SDT, Shackles, Disk), I wouldn't even bother.
Mutavault has been discussed. Basically it's not as good as Monestary.
White doesn't only give you STP (and no, Innocent Blood isn't a good replacement. I used to supplement my Swords with 2 of them, but Smother is better, especially now that I run Goyf.) and Monestary, but Meddling Mage in the board. That's the main selling point.
Also, the 4c builds aren't not solid...they're plenty solid. I used to be scared shitless by Deadguy, with its sets of Wasteland, Sinkhole, and Vindicate. Well, that changed when I still haven't lost a game to it for any reason relating to any of the land destruction. The games I lose come down to a topdeck Stalker ruining my day. The only real problem are the Moons, and the difference between having 1 and 4 basic lands is really negligable there. U'd have to run basics in the color of your removal anyway (not necessarily a good choice), and still have to draw into the land and removal. I'd much rather take my chances of getting to pop a fetch and float white...
A basic Island is enough to play Cunning Wish --> Hydroblast. This works for the first moon :-)
True dat. I stopped playing Wish a little while before Dragon Stompy started seeing big play. I had mostly used it for Extirpate when Breakfast and Ichorid were huge, but I might consider it again if DS starts becoming a problem around here.
I really like the wish board options. It allows you to play draw go "teh hottness." Four cards is vry minimal and you can slide alot of different things into four slots. 2 other slots "should" include extirpate/Hydroblast so techn. you have six slots, but strictly four dedicated.
Slots:
1. Anti-Aggro game plan
2. Disenchant "effect"
3. Creature removal
4. Card advantage/ tempo
To me a small wishboard like this is perfect. You could also do this with living wish it would just look a bit different.
1. Mutavault
2. Indrik Stomp howler/ Harmonic sliver
3. Ravenous baloth
4. wasteland/ ghost quarter?
No idea but its just toolbox. My Wish board is as follows and it's extremely effective in the Dstompy matchup and some others as well.
1. Pulse of the fields
2. Slaughter Pact
3. Fact or Fiction
4. Dismantling blow
5. Extirpate
6. Hydroblast
If there's Dragon Stompy in your meta, Abolish could be an out against Blood Moon. Probably isn't necessary, but could be useful.
Actually come to think of it you can't actually run red elemental blasts in BGWU landstill without red.
I personally like the idea of grabbing the tabernacle at Pendrelle vale with living wish. Also grabbing an quagnoth could be handy as well especially in the mid to late game but thats probably not needed with garrucks in the main. Just saying though it could be another option to exploit.
Sure, you can use Living Wish instead of Cunning Wish. Both will get you the cards you'll need to regain control. But Cunning Wish is a blue instant card, meaning you can play it EOT and pitch it to FoW. It means you can open manasources to eventually counter something and play the Wish EOT. I think that's what makes Cunning Wish better than Living Wish in Landstill.
Yeah I agree but I think it would be interesting to think outside the box and build an 4c landstill deck with living wish. Then you can grab something like an loxodon hierach for aggro or grab an teeg/meddling mage for the combo matchups.
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