[ATW] Landstill

[Tacosnape]

Any two of their manlands can trade with Quagnoth. You may be able to kill them, but it's incorrect to say that 43lands can't deal with a Quagnoth.

I think Tombstalker comes off as slightly better. It's more difficult to block (Maze of Ith being the only answer), and it does not require six mana to cast.

Quagnoth does force them to lose a manland on each attack. So does any 4/5 or bigger, though.

Maze of Ith may be the only answer to a Tombstalker for them, but it's an answer they'll readily have. You're talking about a deck that runs four of them and runs an incredible engine to get multiple of them in play. Unless you can Wasteland/Extirpate Maze, Tombstalker gets stopped.

Quagnoth, however, can't be stopped by a Maze. What's more, gangblocking a Quagnoth is suicide. Swords before combat damage will cause Quagnoth to eat the other manland, and a well-timed Deed for 1 (Killing all active manlands and Exploration) will cause them severe problems recovering.

[Bardo]

BTW how is the discussion on the 2 thread discussion going bardo?

For the time being, we're going to leave things as they are. And yeah, we realize the Thresh situation is out of whack with this arrangement.

[HSCK]

This may sound crazy, clunky, and generally inefficient, but how do you all think Scapeshift in builds packing Life from the Loam? Or as a faster endgame? Combined with Garruk it guarantees that you will get whatever kill conditions you want instantly and under Standstill the next turn. It also works great with Humility.

[kicks_422]

Crazy, clunky, and generally inefficient.

Tutoring for lands isn't what Landstill does anyway. It just beats with whatever you have drawn or is in play.

[HSCK]

It's not so much a tutor as a kill condition. It gets lots of things you want to beat with now and thins the deck out. Scepshift into Standstill is pretty cool.

A kill package could look like:

2-3 Scapeshift
2 Garruk
1 Tombstalker
1-2 Loam
1-2 Crucible

ON THE OTHER HAND, it knocks out a lot of your defenses if you have no recursion strategy and makes you play a different style.

[galeng]

Sorry Galen, it's unlikely you're going to be able to beat 43.lands no matter what changes you make to the MD. Really, one kid plays it on occasion, you shouldn't worry too much about it. It's going to steamroll everything but combo - just let it be.
BTW 3 Nantuko Monastery seems like too much. How's cunning wish been treating you in UGWB?

EDIT - Standstill seems week against 43.lands, side that out.

I am able to beat it most of the time. It's just a little inconsistant is all. I'm referring to sideboard options, not MD. Nantuko monestery is your best win con, why would you run 2? Cunning wish is an excellent utility card that works well in the deck (probably my best draw vs 43 land in particular). Standstill was my thoughts as well, though loam does break it.

Whoever said extirpate, i tested and it seems to be a leyline that only works on one card and needs mana to cast. What's your reasoning here?

[Hightower]

I'm sorry if this has been brought up 100 times already, but I haven't read all 52 pages, and couldn't see much about it from the first two-three pages.

My question is; what do you guys think is U/w/b/g Landstill's worst matchup(s) in the current state of Legacy? (I'm not sure if Morningtide will matter much for Landstill)

Regards

[thefreakaccident]

The version with 10+ colorless producing lands has the chance to loose to everything... the one with only 6 colorless producing lands has great MUs against a great amount of the field...

It mainly looses to other control decks, and occasionally agro... the combo and agro-control MU is usually terrific, unless they drew terribly.

[Rood]

I'm sorry if this has been brought up 100 times already, but I haven't read all 52 pages, and couldn't see much about it from the first two-three pages.

My question is; what do you guys think is U/w/b/g Landstill's worst matchup(s) in the current state of Legacy? (I'm not sure if Morningtide will matter much for Landstill)

Regards

Worst matchups would probally be sligh type decks, Goyf Sligh. Ichorid I can't imagine to be too fantastic either.

[Obfuscate Freely]

The version with 10+ colorless producing lands has the chance to loose to everything... the one with only 6 colorless producing lands has great MUs against a great amount of the field...

I apologize for singling you out, since you are by no means the first person in this thread to say something like this, but I'm tired of seeing it.

The number of colorless lands in a list has nothing to do with how well that list will be able to access its colors and play its spells. What does have to do with that is how many color-producing lands the list has. This is an important distinction.

For example, my 4c manabase looks like this:

4x Tundra
4x Tropical Island
4x Underground Sea
3x Flooded Strand
3x Polluted Delta

3x Mishra's Factory
2x Nantuko Monastery
1x Volrath's Stronghold

Eighteen of those lands tap for colored mana (or fetch something that does), and all of those eighteen can produce blue mana specifically. For a deck that doesn't always need early in the game, those numbers are almost excessive.

Counting fetches, there are ten cards that, when drawn, can grant you white mana, as well as blue. That number tells you that access to white mana is at least a little unreliable. The numbers of green and black sources are the same, and thus access to those colors is similarly questionable. The fact that each of these counts shares overlapping fetchlands means that, as low as they are, this analysis is actually inaccurately optimistic!

What this tells me is that I should not be looking to remove any white, green, or black sources from my deck. Experience with the list in actual play has shown that doing so would, in fact, be ill-advised.

Notice that the weak point of the manabase is in producing the splash colors, not blue mana. So, while 18 blue sources may be more than enough, cutting any of them is out of the question because it would critically compromise the white, green, or black source count.


All of this is just to illustrate how irrelevant the colorless-producing lands are to the strength of the manabase. If I draw a Mishra's Factory, it has nothing to do with whether I draw a Tundra or not, and so it also has nothing to do with whether I can play my Swords to Plowshares or not.

If I wanted to add Wastelands to my deck, I could do so without hurting the manabase, but I would have to cut spells to do so. As long as I kept all 18 of the colored sources, I could have as many colorless lands as I wanted.

[mossivo1986]

I have got to see the rest of your list to obviously make a judgement on wether your just giving us a line of crap or something decent to work with.

Mana bases are made along with decks obviously Like mine posted above I run alot of smoothers and the colorless lands that I do run do something incredibly significant in each matchup.

Im not even going to explain them because they are so obvious it would be retarded to go into it.


The funniest thing i've seen lately is a 4c Landstill list that ran 4mishra's and4Wastelands. He was practicly begging me to get color screwed.

It's not evens so much that you get color screwed in the first couple of spells. It's at the point where you "Should" be able to cast 2-3-and even four spells in a given eot step that you tend to screw yourself.

EX. Today I had a unique hand against mono blue control that resolved a morphling but he was tapped out. A list that ran 4 wasteland's in 4c is more then likely not going to be able to produce the double white for STP that I had.

[kabal]

The funniest thing i've seen lately is a 4c Landstill list that ran 4mishra's and4Wastelands. He was practicly begging me to get color screwed.

As stated above, it is not about the number of colorless lands, it is about how many color producing lands you run.

A list that ran 4 wasteland's in 4c is more then likely not going to be able to produce the double white for STP that I had.

What, when did StP cost double white?

[mossivo1986]

Sorry I had my mind in other places today. Job stuff.

The board position was him 4cards no mana untapped trying to resolve a morphling.

ME double swords in hand. Thats where double white came in.

Heres the funny part. He forces both swords. I untap and draw a 3rd.


The Force wasn't with me, but swords certainly was.

[Illissius]

If you're dead set on beating 43lands, another idea might be (go ahead and laugh) Tsabo's Web. It does turn off a quarter of your manabase or so, but it also shuts off half their deck. Together with Extirpate to disable Wasteland recursion and some sort of flying finisher, you might have a shot.

[Tacosnape]

If you're dead set on beating 43lands, another idea might be (go ahead and laugh) Tsabo's Web. It does turn off a quarter of your manabase or so, but it also shuts off half their deck. Together with Extirpate to disable Wasteland recursion and some sort of flying finisher, you might have a shot.

I tried this, actually. My initial plan was Tsabo's Web + Meddling Mage on Loam. It was pretty effective, especially if I managed to Extirpate Wasteland. The problem, however, was that it didn't keep 43 Land from using one of it's very few basics (The version I faced ran like 2) to activate a Factory or Treetop Village and block.

I suppose now that I run Garruk, however, this would be far less of a problem.

[fghj1983]

Taco I was wondering if you would mind posting you current landstill list. I have been testing Garruk recently and he seems very promising. I am curious to see how you fit him into a four color list. Also has his double green cost been a problem?

[Tacosnape]

Taco I was wondering if you would mind posting you current landstill list. I have been testing Garruk recently and he seems very promising. I am curious to see how you fit him into a four color list. Also has his double green cost been a problem?

I'm hesitant to do so because I've been changing it about every two days in an effort to figure out how to deal with a metagame full of BGW Witness / Vindicate / Extirpate decks. However, here's the current list.

Tacostill, Version 934.6a

4 Underground Sea
4 Tundra
4 Tropical Island
3 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
4 Mishra's Factory
2 Nantuko Monestary

4 Brainstorm
4 Standstill
4 Fact or Fiction

4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Diabolic Edict
1 Krosan Grip
4 Pernicious Deed

4 Force of Will
4 Counterspell
2 Stifle
2 Garruk Wildspeaker

SB:
4 Meddling Mage
4 Blue Elemental Blast
3 Extirpate
3 Engineered Plague
1 Krosan Grip

I keep missing Life From Teh Loam, however, so I'll probably go back to a copy at some point.

I don't miss Engineered Explosives, though. Not one bit. However, I'm sure at some point a Belcher deck will come along and make me regret that sentiment.

[raharu]

Taco, have you considered Meditate in you list? I wouldthink something like -4 Fact or Fiction +3 Meditate and a free slot (mayb that LftL you've been missing?), or -1 Grip,-1 Edict, -1 Fact or Fiction, +3 Meditate.

[kicks_422]

I'm very stubborn with packing Wastelands into Landstill, even in a 4C version. I think it's such a great niche card for the deck that it shouldn't be cut... I run 26 lands to compensate for the loss of colored mana though.

I haven't tested Garruk yet, but could anyone tell me what exactly it helps the deck with? I can see the obvious keeping 2 mana open for Counterspell or attack from Factory, as well as the token generation every turn... But how does that help the deck out in things that it had been lacking before?

BTW... Are there any of you having problems with Garruk not showing up in your decklist in MWS? Adding him increases the deck count, but he doesn't show up on the list... He's in the deck when I play though. Just a minor nuisance, since when I want to decrease the number of Garruks I run, I have to start a new file and input the WHOLE deck again.

[holkenborg]

Garruk gives you, in principal, infinite 3/3 tokens with 1 card, you can untap your attacking lands AND he survives your Deed / Damnation / WoG / Disk / everything :)