Hoofprints:
Negatives
-Ultra slow without brainstorm/ standstill breaks
-Mediocre pressure as it forces you to tap out ATLEAST twice during your own mainphase to get it online "once to cast, once to activate."
- Combo just laughs because it's soo slow. "Then they get beat lol"
Positives
- Per say inevitability
- 4/4 flyers are major beaters in Legacy
- Can become a real pain if you get multiple standstills/ brainstorms quickly.
Anything else?
Originally Posted by mossivo1986
Discussion of having multiple Landstill threads cut and moved to the Adept Lounge for discussion.
KK Thanks let us know.
I'm having an awkward time consistantly beating 43 land (loam). I'm looking for an acceptable sideboard plan. My sideboard:
4 Leyline of the Void
3 Blue Elemental Blast
2 Hydroblast
1 Extirpate
1 Krosan Grip
1 Tsabo's Decree
1 Dissipate
1 Pulse of the Fields
1 Diabolic Edict
What really bothering me is what to take out for leylines. What really is the most "dead" card against them? My list:
4 Force of Will
4 Counterspell
3 Stifle
4 Brainstorm
4 Standstill
3 Fact or Fiction
4 Pernicious Deed
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Crucible of Worlds
2 Cunning Wish
4 Mishra's Factory
3 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
3 Tropical Island
3 Underground Sea
3 Tundra
3 Wasteland
3 Nantuko Monastery
1 Island
Thanks for any input.
Sorry Galen, it's unlikely you're going to be able to beat 43.lands no matter what changes you make to the MD. Really, one kid plays it on occasion, you shouldn't worry too much about it. It's going to steamroll everything but combo - just let it be.
BTW 3 Nantuko Monastery seems like too much. How's cunning wish been treating you in UGWB?
EDIT - Standstill seems week against 43.lands, side that out.
In a nutshell:
1) Landstill is a slow deck. A slow deck makes much better use of 4 Extirpate than of Leyline as graveyard hate. Replace those immediately (this is not just for the 43L matchup: lots of other stuff like the mirror will benefit from this).
2) Even with Loam recursion disabled, 43 Lands can still destroy your manabase and rape its corpse - this is why it's considered 4C Landstill's nightmare matchup. Pithing Needles help a lot, but they don't have much use as a SB options. Meddling Mages are less effective, but more versatile.
(Either way, you should cut Decree and Dissipate from your Wishboard, since they're vastly inefficient.)
3) Maindecking Tombstalker as a finisher is a great way to improve difficult matchups like this one. Their only out is having more Mazes of Ith than you have Wastelands.
YOU'RE GIVING ME A TIME MACHINE IN ORDER TO TREAT MY SLEEP DISORDER.
Loam + Maze of Ith rapes Tombstalker, so that plan only works post SB when you have Extirpate.
Yes, either that or if you're lucky and they don't get a Maze in G1 (Galeng runs Cunning Wish, so he has access to Extirpate maindeck, btw).
My point, confirmed through experience, was that Lands! has a lot of a harder time dealing with a Tombstalker than with a Nantuko Monastery.
YOU'RE GIVING ME A TIME MACHINE IN ORDER TO TREAT MY SLEEP DISORDER.
Well duh, because they can't trade. However, you're going to have a bad MU regardless of what you try. That's my experience. You should be focusing on improving winnable MUs instead and not playing this deck in a meta where everyone can shell out for a Tabernacle.
Even though no one will listen to me because I play goyf, extirpate on loams really helps, you side out the facts first then stanstills, personally I don't lose this matchup since I can bring out goyf second turn and swing by third(unlike tombstalker) and garruk owns 43 land.dec. The only true way to beat this deck is to go aggro on them, only stifling teh wastes to keep your manabase stable, counter the loams and go aggro, and since my build is the only one that can do that, yes everyone else this matchup is instant loss first game, and hope to god you draw sideboard second.
Deed and explosives are good in this matchup specially first game, drop them in play(explosives for 0) and you can keep them from attacking for a while.
As long as I keep them from loaming like a bitch, I don't lose, you have more powerful cards all around, but they win by recursion, extirpate helps thato.
on another note, I just played a tourny last night and went 3-0-1 in swiss and 2-0 in playoffs to take first.
beat, jank.dec, black with goyf splash, red aggro, tied slide(ran out of time)
playoffs, beat slide, and then the same red aggro deck.
Hopefully I can get to the friday tournys since they have more to 15-20 people instead of the lonely 8-12, so I can get a better feel about the meta.(literelly no thresh in meta. but adam is planning on goin back to it for next week)
I advise you to take the loss. Seriously. Virtually nobody plays 43 Land.
However, if your heart is set on beating it, there's a way. Run Stifle/Extirpate to stop Wasteland, then bring in Quagnoth. Resolve Quagnoth on turn six at all costs as the longer things go, the worse they get. Use your Swords to Plowshares and Deeds to take out any possible gangblocks or power swings, and smash face for the win.
Also, in UBG builds (IE, ones with Wasteland), Garruk is a decent option for keeping things reasonable. You have to be able to get rid of The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale, however, which is easier said than done, and very often 43 Land will simply drop more threats than Garruk can create blockers for.
Wait wait wait, going aggro with 4 creatures and slower counterspells than Threshold beats a deck that is utterly dedicated to mauling Threshold and other creature based decks? Tabernacle, Maze of Ith, Ports, and Wastelands all shut down the mighty 4 Goyfs and your lands while you try to battle with a couple Stifles and a couple Extirpate.
You are aware of the fact that Explosives/0 don't do anything against lands as in "destroy all nonland permanents?
Sure you can win against 43-lands with a lucky start and fast Garruk here and there, but generally it is better to just ignore the deck (as close to nobody plays it) or hope it gets destroyed by combo which in turn gets destroyed by you.
In the list I play:
// Lands
1 [AQ] Mishra's Factory (1)
1 [AQ] Mishra's Factory (2)
1 [AQ] Mishra's Factory (3)
1 [AQ] Mishra's Factory (4)
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
1 [UNH] Plains
2 [ON] Polluted Delta
4 [B] Tundra
2 [B] Underground Sea
2 [B] Tropical Island
1 [B] Scrubland
1 [B] Savannah
1 [UNH] Island
1 [TE] Wasteland
1 [TSP] Academy Ruins
// Creatures
1 [SC] Eternal Dragon
// Spells
4 [AL] Force of Will
2 [JU] Cunning Wish
4 [IA] Swords to Plowshares
4 [IA] Brainstorm
2 [SC] Decree of Justice
4 [IA] Counterspell
2 [TE] Humility
2 [FD] Engineered Explosives
2 [FD] Crucible of Worlds
4 [OD] Standstill
3 [AP] Pernicious Deed
2 [DIS] Stifle
// Sideboard
SB: 1 [DS] Pulse of the Fields
SB: 1 [IN] Dismantling Blow
SB: 4 [PLC] Extirpate
SB: 1 [IN] Fact or Fiction
SB: 1 [FUT] Slaughter Pact
SB: 3 [UL] Engineered Plague
SB: 4 [IA] Hydroblast
Against 43land.dec my matchup is exceptionally worse then most landstill variants. Humility is completely dead, I run -1 deed and ee basicly just gets the one drop enchantmant which is the best turn one play I have. I basicly hope I get stifle/ cunning wish in my opener to stop rapid wastelands. Then I follow it up with an extirpate asap then I go for the long game hoping to survive through the manland rush. g2 is alot easier because I side humilities and standstills along with 2 ofsomething else for Meddlng mage/ extirpate.
How have these been treating you?
I did never like them while testing and refining our list and cut them pretty quickly for another land (fetchie) and Pernicious Deed n°4.
I can see how people might argue that they protect the manabase from Wastelands but its not that hard to play around non-recursive land hate, you just have to be used to it.
I think that a 1-1 split between this and Life from the Loam is apropriate in versions running green as LftL is better in the earlygame and helps you hit landdrops from turn2 onwards.
It surely is weaker under Standstill but I like it for timewalking into the mid-game by assuring you the next 1-3 land drops which is very strong, especially against decks like Suicide Black that attack your manabase early on.
I also really don't like this wishboard slot. Cunning Wish is just too precious and flexible a tool that you would want to 'waste' it on the ultra-clunky Fact or Fiction / random card advantage slot.
Also, Wish -> FoF is just soo painfully slow that I have almost never done it in playtesting.
I agree that one could want a non-answer, proactive wishtarget but I have since found a better one: Enlightened Tutor. It is pro-active fetching Crucible of Worlds or Humility but is also a solution fetching Pernicious Deed and Engineered Explosives.
Suggested 4c Cunning Landstill list:
In comparision to the UWb List, this is basicallyCode:/// Maindeck (60 cards) // Lands 4 Flooded Strand 2 Polluted Delta 1 Windswept Heath 4 Tundra 2 Underground Sea 2 Tropical Island 1 Scrubland 1 Savannah 1 Plains 1 Island 4 Mishra's Factory 1 Academy Ruins 1 Wasteland // Winconditions 1 Eternal Dragon 2 Decree of Justice // Permission 4 Counterspell 4 Force of Will // Card Advantage 4 Brainstorm 4 Standstill // Utility 1 Life from the Loam 1 Crucible of Worlds 2 Cunning Wish // Removal 4 Swords to Plowshares 2 Engineered Explosives 4 Pernicious Deed 2 Humility /// Sideboard (15 cards) 4 Engineered Plague 4 Meddling Mage 3 Extirpate 1 Dismantling Blow 1 Pulse of the Fields 1 Slaughter Pact 1 Enlightened Tutor
-3 Wrath of God
-1 Engineered Explosives
-1 Cunning Wish
+4 Pernicious Deed
+1 Land
With a modified manabase obviously.
Running less Cunning Wishes is totally acceptable as you have Pernicious Deed to also take care of non-creatures (main role of Wish appart from fetching Extirpate).
The wishboard Pulse of the Fields is totally sustainable because of tthis list generally being more white focused and running more white duals.
Seriously, there is no way that you can win this matchup but to get a quick Crucible+Wastelock and a solution to Life from the Loam which is quite improbable, but nobody plays that deck either ways so you can just ignore it.
The main problem here is not the recursion (which you can stop quite easily via Extirpate and Meddling Mage) but the manland beatdown (you removal but Swords and in 4c Deed becomes useless) paired with mana denial componente.
Edit: Also, seriously people, there has to be something better than Slaughter Pact...
After reading the card I just noticed that, I havn't played against a 42 land.dec since I have added explosives, so I never came up, I'm just used to deed specifying, just figured explosives did that same.
HSCK stupid posts like yours are the main reason that this thread is turrning into $h!t. You come on here with 10 posts and critize a person just because you are a horrible magic player. All your doing is making the rest of the landstill players in here look bad, how do you think the rest of hte magic community thinks of this site, if people like you destroy good ideas when the pro players are doing the same thing..... mmm I wonder who they are going to listen to, the worlds players or a person that has only posted 10 posts and this is practically your first in this thread, great way to start.
Warning issued for flaming. Keep it civil. Attack the ideas, not the person.
BTW, this is your 3rd warning out of 55 posts. 3 Warnings are a site ban. Bye.
-PR
Now to everyone else who has actually played landstill, I must have just gotten alot of luck or sumthing but I havn't had that much problem with 42 land.dec, but before I went to this goy build(I played the BHWC landstill before) But as taco pointed out, just take the loss, one loss shouldnt put you out of second day or playoffs. I usually start the first game and if it looked ugly I wouldn't even wait for him to kill me, and after second game halve the time, I would scoop early when it got ugly to go get something to eat before next match (or to play EDH)
For what it's worth, HSCK is right. 43 Land still demolishes Tarmogoyf Landstill like any others. While Blac's point about Goyfstill having a better matchup against 43 Land is technically true, it's a statement equivalent to saying it's easier to jump across the English Channel than the Atlantic Ocean. 43 Land still wins. Fatality.
Seriously, though? If you know you're going to face it once and don't want to take the loss, Quagnoth is the best bet for green-packing builds, as their entire deck can't deal with it in the slightest. Just use all your removal to stop their manlands long enough for Quagnoth to go a-wassailing on their face. You're still not going to break .500 doing this, though.
Any two of their manlands can trade with Quagnoth. You may be able to kill them, but it's incorrect to say that 43lands can't deal with a Quagnoth.
I think Tombstalker comes off as slightly better. It's more difficult to block (Maze of Ith being the only answer), and it does not require six mana to cast.
Quagnoth does force them to lose a manland on each attack. So does any 4/5 or bigger, though.
YOU'RE GIVING ME A TIME MACHINE IN ORDER TO TREAT MY SLEEP DISORDER.
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Der_imaginäre_Freund:
In regards to wish board here is my opinion:
If I get a wish I cast it. Most games it does something. If I know theres nothing viable to grab other then maybe Extirpate, then I will probobly go for that, but usually wether it be aggro or control theres usually something.
As for the 1 of FOF it is alittle clunky but priceless in card advantage. I don't like Enlightened Tutor in the side as its basicly saying pay four mana put something on top of your deck. I'd rather have pay 7 draw 2 cards that are answers. The same goes for dismantling blow vs Return to dust. I'd rather have the option to sink mana into it vs a more then likely mainphase spell.
I don't agree with the LFTL statement. The split to me Before I test this looks like your trying to slightly improve your discard matchup. I don't like the idea but im willing to give it a shot. Especially if it makes the opponent randomly extirpate the LFTL out of your deck. It sounds interesting but we will see in testing I guess. Anyways Ill let you know about my results.
BTW how is the discussion on the 2 thread discussion going bardo?
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