[ATW] Landstill

[Tacosnape]

The one thing that I have found about threshold matchups, are the fact that tye have more draw and counter, which makes it harder to drop down certian things like deed, plus if it is a good threshold player, and they know your playing landstill, they arnt gonna over extend with creatures so when you deed they can restock, but by playing that 1 tarmogoyf, it forces them to over extend to try and do damage, which is one of those times, its worth it to blow up the tarmogoyf, because your opponant is losing alot worse, before tarmogoyf, I would say that landstill has at the most a 60/40 match preboard against the 3c builds(have not faced 2c to know) and after board, it gets harder, but with goyf, the matchup becomes 70/30 even after board.

You clearly haven't played this matchup ever.

Landstill outdraws Threshold. Period. Threshold has only cantrips and, occasionally, Predict. Landstill has a cantrip, a draw three, and a draw three out of five.

If they drop threats, you Edict, Swords, Explosives, or Deed them, or in the case of Nimble Mongoose, you have the option of killing it off with Mishra's Factory. You run more removal spells than they run threats.

Threshold beats you if they mess up your manabase, if they Counterbalance lock your removal, or if they drop several threats early and are just too fast for you to stabilize. Tarmogoyf doesn't help with the first, Tarmogoyf doesn't help with the second, and admittedly, he does help with the third. The most common card cut for him, Spell Snare, helps with both the second and the third.

The next point where you're wrong is that Landstill is significantly stronger against 3C builds than straight UG. Know why? The 3-color builds run removal that ordinary Landstill builds don't have to worry about in the slightest. U/G, however, runs Stifles, Wastelands, Spell Snares, Dazes, and tons of other annoying things that make it a nightmare for Landstill to stabilize.

[AnduYn]

Hey, I've been working on my landstill deck for a while and i was just wondering if using enlightened tutor in my u/w landstill would be a good idea or not. Any thoughts or comments?

Using Enlightened Tutor in a U/W Landstill might really be worth it, if you are playing Counterbalance/Top combo. A few Pro-Player designed a U/W Landstill with Counterbalance and were quite successful at Worlds. Check their decks out for reference.


I've been playing 4C Landstill with a couple of Enlightened Tutors for a very long time now, and they were always fine for me.

I had great results with the deck as well. For example at the German Open Legacy Championship this year in Aschaffenburg with only a single loss in the finals (and a couple of draws in the Swiss rounds).

This is the deck list I played:

A Friend of mine won another big tournament in Germany with a very similar list.


But 3 Enlightened tutors are definitely too much because the card disadvantage is a problem, and you NEVER want to see two.

The good thing about running ET is that they really improve your sideboard, especially if you enter a wide open field, and you don't know what the meta will be like. The main purpose of Tutor pre-board is to get humility on the table, witch won me so many games on it's own.

But if you have an idea of what you are playing against, you can cut a lot of the one- offs.


If you want to try ET in a four colour shell I would recommend a list that looks more like that:

// Lands
4 Tundra
4 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
1 Wasteland
2 Tropical Island
2 Nantuko Monastery
1 Savannah
3 Underground Sea
4 Mishra's Factory

// Spells
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Standstill
2 Spell Snare
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
2 Humility
2 Fact or Fiction
3 Pernicious Deed
1 Engineered Explosives
2 Crucible of Worlds
2 Enlightened Tutor
1 Vedalken Shackles
3 Counterspell
2 Diabolic Edict/Stifle (Combo/aggro meta)

// Sideboard
SB: 4 Leyline of the Void
SB: 3 Engineered Plague
SB: 1 Circle of Protection: Red
SB: 1 Planar Void
SB: 4 Hydroblast
SB: 2 Extirpate

The Sideboard is mostly designed to fight Goblin, Loam and Ichorid decks, it's always a metagame call, which sideboard cards you use. But this board gives you 9 cards that will wreck loam/ichorid post board (4 leylines,2 Extirpates,2 Elnlightened Tutor,-> 1Planar void).

One Wasteland is left in the deck, because you can always tutor up your Crucible if you drew the Wasteland and want to go into the wasteland lock.

I have cut stifle from the list I normally play, because with only one Wasteland left the chances of randomly screwing your opponent are very low and it is often a better way to protect your manabase from opponent's wastelands when you go: ET-> Crucible. I really wanted the removal more, because, IF this deck loses to Thresh - I know that it doesn't to that often, but my meta is packed with Thresh decks - it loses because you can't get rid of an early Dark Confidant, especially if you lose a Land to Stifle or Wasteland.

Stifle is at it's best if you can stifle an opponents Fetchland. But this only throws you opponent behind for one turn, he will still be able to play all his threads throughout the game, and you will have to answer it. Yes, it will be easier if you have more mana, but it sometimes happens that you will have the Stifle for his land, but that you won't have the Sword/Edict for his Dark Confidant next turn.

[blac198990]

taco, I'm really tired of argueing with you when, I have tested goyf and have loved it, and although you seem to always make something up to make him look bad, I'm still going to play with goyf and win.

This is directed to you and everyone who is dangerously close to the line: agreeing to disagree is often the sensible posture. If you're getting tired of arguing over a point, then stop. - Bardo

hopefully to settle this and drop all of this stupid fighting, this is not a deck to beat, its an archtype to beat which means that their are many varients of the deck, hopefully I can name alot of them here for you:
BHWC landstill
4c landstill
UGU landstill
UGR landstill
UW landstill
UGB landstill
cunning wish landstill
burning wish landstill
UR landstill


Now that I have named these I would like to add one more....
goyfstill
Now I'm gonna be the big proponant of this and taco you can stick with your 4c landstill, so you can stop arguing about using goyf, since I feel that using goyf in landstill needs to take a different aproach to winning, and taco I dont think you know how to play landstill that way, which is alright, stick with your 4c build and i'll stick with my goyfstill. Here is a list that a person from worlds is playing. Its pretty close to my list with only the manabase and 4 cards diff, buts its pretty much the same idea.


Antonino de Rosa
2007 Worlds, Legacy
Main Deck

60 cards

3 Flooded Strand
1 Island
4 Mishra's Factory
3 Polluted Delta
4 Tropical Island
3 Tundra
3 Underground Sea
3 Wasteland

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
24 lands


4 Tarmogoyf

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
4 creatures


4 Brainstorm
3 Counterspell
2 Crucible of Worlds
2 Fact or Fiction
4 Force of Will
1 Ghastly Demise
4 Pernicious Deed
4 Standstill
4 Stifle
4 Swords to Plowshares

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
32 other spells

Sideboard


4 Blue Elemental Blast
4 Engineered Plague
1 Hydroblast
4 Leyline of the Void
2 Tormod's Crypt

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
15 sideboard cards

[Burr]

This my current deck list in progress, one problem is that its 62 cards and i need to cut 2 cards but can't figure out what to cut!!! Any suggestions on what to cut/add would be great!

Creatures
1 Eternal Dragon

Spells
4 Brainstorm
3 Counterspell
1 Decree of Justice
3 Enlightened Tutor
2 Fact or Fiction
4 Force of Will
2 Mana Leak
1 Pulse of the Fields
3 Stifle
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Wrath of God

Enchantments
1 Humility
3 Standstill

Artifacts
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Vedalken Shackles

Lands
1 Academy Ruins
2 Faerie Conclave
4 Flooded Strand
2 Island
4 Mishra's Factory
3 Plains
4 Tundra
3 Wasteland

Planeswalkers
1 Ajani Goldmane

[blac198990]

This my current deck list in progress, one problem is that its 62 cards and i need to cut 2 cards but can't figure out what to cut!!! Any suggestions on what to cut/add would be great!

Creatures
1 Eternal Dragon

Spells
4 Brainstorm
3 Counterspell
1 Decree of Justice
3 Enlightened Tutor
2 Fact or Fiction
4 Force of Will
2 Mana Leak
1 Pulse of the Fields
3 Stifle
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Wrath of God

Enchantments
1 Humility
3 Standstill

Artifacts
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Vedalken Shackles

Lands
1 Academy Ruins
2 Faerie Conclave
4 Flooded Strand
2 Island
4 Mishra's Factory
3 Plains
4 Tundra
3 Wasteland

Planeswalkers
1 Ajani Goldmane

the only thing I can think of is to take out the mana leaks, just because you have mass removal and normal removal as well as shackles, so you can keep your counters for other things.

[Burr]

I've thought about taking out the mana leaks, but then i also thought about taking out the counterspells and adding another mana leak. I've seen many landstill decks run mana leaks over counterspell, which do you think is better?

[Tacosnape]

Now that I have named these I would like to add one more....
goyfstill
Now I'm gonna be the big proponant of this and taco you can stick with your 4c landstill, so you can stop arguing about using goyf, since I feel that using goyf in landstill needs to take a different aproach to winning, and taco I dont think you know how to play landstill that way, which is alright, stick with your 4c build and i'll stick with my goyfstill. Here is a list that a person from worlds is playing. Its pretty close to my list with only the manabase and 4 cards diff, buts its pretty much the same idea.

Technically, you aren't the big proponent of this anyway. I'd give that honor to Bardo. At least he makes valid arguments in favor of Tarmogoyf.

Secondly, Goyfstill isn't a deck. It's Landstill with four cards added in it. Four cards that enable your opponent's removal spells and, by your own report, caused you losses.

The approach to winning isn't any different. You achieve card advantage, you get a threat online, you shut down your opponent, and you win. If your strategy to winning is different, it's inferior. Dropping a turn two Tarmogoyf and spending all your countermagic to protect it is an inferior strategy for this deck, your variant or mine, and if this is your plan, you're better off playing Threshold.

I'm not making up anything. I've played probably close to a thousand matches with Landstill, at least thirty or forty with Tarmogoyf. I find that while it can speed up a win, it does nothing to change my actual win percentage to the positive. I find it dies to my own Deeds at times, I find it enables opponent's removal spells, and I've find I've lost several games because it wasn't a blue card when I desperately needed to Force of Will something. In short, I find Tarmogoyf makes the deck lose more. Your own report supports this theory.

Therefore it's completely valid of me to question the card's presence. It in no way violates the "Archetype" status of Landstill, nor is it valid to avoid a defense of a card accused of being inferior by saying "It's a different build." All this does is show that you have no logical argument to back up your inclusion of Tarmogoyf. When I was the big proponent of cutting Wasteland in 4C, I backed it up with countless logical arguments. When I kept insisting on running Loam in it over Crucible, I backed it up with countless logical arguments. Right or wrong, I didn't take the stance of "Don't argue with me because it's a different built." I set out to prove my points. I am doing so again with Tarmogoyf. So if you're going to attack me, attack my builds, and call my builds obsolete, at least include some logical points along with it.

I've thought about taking out the mana leaks, but then i also thought about taking out the counterspells and adding another mana leak. I've seen many landstill decks run mana leaks over counterspell, which do you think is better?

Counterspell. Mana Leak is awful on about turn 8 or 9. If your manabase can't support Counterspell, I'd suggest altering it until it can. Most of your colorless lands don't need to come down in the first couple turns anyway.

[Burr]

Thanks taco. Also, I've been going back on fourth on the decision to use Hoofprints of the stag or Ajani goldmane. What do you guys think?

Thanks for all the help guys

[blac198990]

Technically, you aren't the big proponent of this anyway. I'd give that honor to Bardo. At least he makes valid arguments in favor of Tarmogoyf.

Secondly, Goyfstill isn't a deck. It's Landstill with four cards added in it. Four cards that enable your opponent's removal spells and, by your own report, caused you losses.

The approach to winning isn't any different. You achieve card advantage, you get a threat online, you shut down your opponent, and you win. If your strategy to winning is different, it's inferior. Dropping a turn two Tarmogoyf and spending all your countermagic to protect it is an inferior strategy for this deck, your variant or mine, and if this is your plan, you're better off playing Threshold.

I'm not making up anything. I've played probably close to a thousand matches with Landstill, at least thirty or forty with Tarmogoyf. I find that while it can speed up a win, it does nothing to change my actual win percentage to the positive. I find it dies to my own Deeds at times, I find it enables opponent's removal spells, and I've find I've lost several games because it wasn't a blue card when I desperately needed to Force of Will something. In short, I find Tarmogoyf makes the deck lose more. Your own report supports this theory.

Therefore it's completely valid of me to question the card's presence. It in no way violates the "Archetype" status of Landstill, nor is it valid to avoid a defense of a card accused of being inferior by saying "It's a different build." All this does is show that you have no logical argument to back up your inclusion of Tarmogoyf. When I was the big proponent of cutting Wasteland in 4C, I backed it up with countless logical arguments. When I kept insisting on running Loam in it over Crucible, I backed it up with countless logical arguments. Right or wrong, I didn't take the stance of "Don't argue with me because it's a different built." I set out to prove my points. I am doing so again with Tarmogoyf. So if you're going to attack me, attack my builds, and call my builds obsolete, at least include some logical points along with it.



Counterspell. Mana Leak is awful on about turn 8 or 9. If your manabase can't support Counterspell, I'd suggest altering it until it can. Most of your colorless lands don't need to come down in the first couple turns anyway.

[Warning for flaming. Chill out. - Bardo] I have given every reason to play goyf, but you seem not to have read any of that. But if you truely need me to tell you again I guess I could but i'm not gonna repeat everything in this thread because everyone here would prob like to talk about something else other than you complain about goyf, if you want to know the reasons, send me a message.

Oh and it does take a different approach to MY kind of list, you have to be aggressive, and actually learn to attack someone on the first 10 turns.

I've also noticed that you have ignored me every time I have asked you for a tourny report, but you still think your an expert. Does that mean that all of your thousand matches are 5 years old??

[holkenborg]

I prefer 2 Garruk Wildspeaker and 2/3 Tombstalker as kill-conditions. Tombstalker only costs 2 mana, because your graveyard doesn't really matter (just leave 1 fetch/wasteland for crucible). You can't play him turn 2, which makes Tarmogoyf better, but it is a 5/5 FLYING creature. The flying makes him better than Tarmogoyf, I think. I do not like the idea of playing a turn 2 Tarmogoyf, just because you can block early critters. In that case, I think, you should play more Engineered Explosives, Innocent Blood and stuff like that, no creatures. That is not the control spirit :P As for a kill condition, the 5/5 flying is better than a 5/6 (most of the times) creature. The only reason why Tarmogoyf is better, is that against combo decks it sets a clock.

Last point: if you decide to play Tarmogoyf, then do not play Landstill, but just a aggro control deck. The idea of Landstill is to play slow and finish the opponent in turn 20 or something. Garruk and Tombstalker fit better in that case. If I would play Tarmogoyf, I would add things like Counterbalance.

[Tacosnape]

Thanks taco. Also, I've been going back on fourth on the decision to use Hoofprints of the stag or Ajani goldmane. What do you guys think?

Thanks for all the help guys

I like Hoofprints in your build. I'm not a huge Ajani fan, and after testing TEC out, Hoofprints is a lot more badass in play than it looks. If I weren't running Deed and I ran white, I would definitely run Hoofprints.

I prefer 2 Garruk Wildspeaker and 2/3 Tombstalker as kill-conditions. Tombstalker only costs 2 mana, because your graveyard doesn't really matter (just leave 1 fetch/wasteland for crucible). You can't play him turn 2, which makes Tarmogoyf better, but it is a 5/5 FLYING creature. The flying makes him better than Tarmogoyf, I think. I do not like the idea of playing a turn 2 Tarmogoyf, just because you can block early critters. In that case, I think, you should play more Engineered Explosives, Innocent Blood and stuff like that, no creatures. That is not the control spirit :P As for a kill condition, the 5/5 flying is better than a 5/6 (most of the times) creature. The only reason why Tarmogoyf is better, is that against combo decks it sets a clock.

Last point: if you decide to play Tarmogoyf, then do not play Landstill, but just a aggro control deck. The idea of Landstill is to play slow and finish the opponent in turn 20 or something. Garruk and Tombstalker fit better in that case. If I would play Tarmogoyf, I would add things like Counterbalance.

I completely agree with your last paragraph.

That said, is Tombstalker really necessary either, between Garruk and your Manlands? I agree it's a solid finisher and flying is nice, but they're still going to be able to use their otherwise mostly-dead removal on it without any fear (And in some builds it's significantly harder to cast thanks to the double black.)

[holkenborg]

That said, is Tombstalker really necessary either, between Garruk and your Manlands? I agree it's a solid finisher and flying is nice, but they're still going to be able to use their otherwise mostly-dead removal on it without any fear (And in some builds it's significantly harder to cast thanks to the double black.)

I like the idea of multiple win conditions in case of Extirpate, Pithing Needle, etc. That's why I would play 2 Garruk and 2 Tombstalker.

[kicks_422]

@Tacosnape: Just don't mind the guy. Let him play with his precious Goyfs, it's not your loss.

I've been testing UBG builds with 4 each of Factories and Mutavaults, with 3 Garruks. It's been working fine and is generally just as powerful minus StP as 4C, but it's the SB that feels lacking. I kind of miss the Meddling Mages.

[Tacosnape]

I've been testing UBG builds with 4 each of Factories and Mutavaults, with 3 Garruks. It's been working fine and is generally just as powerful minus StP as 4C, but it's the SB that feels lacking. I kind of miss the Meddling Mages.

I know. The Mages are what I miss the most in UBG testing. I suppose I could always try that new Blue Mage Enchantment thingy in Morningtide. Or just Counterbalance, for that matter. But Mage's doubling as a kill condition has won me more games than I can count. If there's three cards in Legacy I play well, it's the Name A Card trilogy of Mage, Therapy, and Needle, and I'd feel naked without the Mages in board. I might have to suck it up eventually, though.

How's Mutavault compared to Treetop Village? My instinct has been to try Treetop Village as it assists in my casting Garruk (And allows me to do so if my Tropicals get Extirpated.)

[Shriekmaw]

I've seen a lot of people arguing which build of landstill is better. Is it the 4 color build, UWg, or UWb. I recently played a U/W/b build with Enlightened Tutors. I know everyone dismisses the build, but I really believe its a very solid build that has the ability to improve bad matchups because you can tutor for a card.

I would like to have some discussion on whether the Enlightened Landstill is viable instead of everyone talking about adding Goyf into Landstill.

I didn't like Goyf b/c it seemed like it didn't improve any matchups where Enlightened Tutor actually did.

[holkenborg]

I would like to have some discussion on whether the Enlightened Landstill is viable instead of everyone talking about adding Goyf into Landstill.

I personally think that there are two different types of Landstill decks: the UWg version with toolbox and Humility and the UGB version with Deeds maybe a splash to StP. I recently changed from toolbox to UGB because I prefer the Extirpates in my sideboard. But I really loved to abuse the toolbox.

Maybe a tip for you if you play that version: try Genju of the Fields main 1x. It may sound stupid, but that guy saved matched for me against aggro and burn. With 3 tutors it's like playing 4 lifegaining cards. Also you could play Exalted Angels in this version instead of the Tarmogoyf / Tombstalker / Garruk.

My conclusion/point is that UWg Toolbox and UBGw are two different Landstill decks.. There actually should be two topics about them..

[nightbringer]

I like the decklist, how do you like the mainboard extirpates, If Ive ever low on some cards like when I was looking for garruk to put in or when I for some odd reason didnt have my facts I put in extirpates in md for the spots, and It was an amazing card, and I wish I could find a maindeck spot for them.

Also how is the burning wish working, this is the first list that Ive heard anyone use burning wish, and after looking at your list theres alot of stuff you can find.

I would love to hear a tourny report on some of your matches.

I really like the mainboard extirpate and i used to play 3 but i had to cut one because I lacked room to include other things and because in some games 3 was just to much.

Burning wish is insane and there are loads of good cards in the format you can wish for.
Some can look a bid weird but I have used every single one of them and I can resolve almost every situation with them.
The call of the herd really shines her to.

As for goyf, you should al stop to making a big deal out of this.
If you want to play him then play him and if you don’t like hem then don’t.
You all have good points to play hem or not to play him but its just a matter of personal flavor I think.

LFL seems ok in this version to but I think I would play tombstalker instead of goyf when I do. It would require a lot of testing to.

[blac198990]

heres a link to the top eight of the first big tourny of 2008

top eight

here is the landstill list that got top 8
Top8: Friendly Phil Stolze
4c Landstill

4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Standstill
4 Counterspell
3 Stifle
4 Pernicious Deed
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Fact of Fiction
2 Crucible of Worlds
4 Wasteland
4 Mishra's Factory
1 Nantuko Monestary
4 Tropical Island
3 Underground Sea
3 Tundra
3 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta

Sideboard:
4 Engineered Plague
2 Engineered Explosives
4 Leyline of the Void
1 Stifle
2 Darkblast
2 Extirpate


not to sure if I agree with the sideboard, but I might give some of it a try.

[Mental]

Stifle MB? That's so unexpected these days it could work. Anyways, the list looks fairly solid. Not too sure about 1x Monestery, though. Isn't it basically the reason to splash white?

[blac198990]

Stifle MB? That's so unexpected these days it could work. Anyways, the list looks fairly solid. Not too sure about 1x Monestery, though. Isn't it basically the reason to splash white?

Not sure if your just kidding around or you just have not read landstill in a long time, stifle has been main board since nick played BHWC to top 8.

I've been playing with a single monestary for a while mainly because it's gonna be a breeding pool when I get one. and white is splashed for him, stp.