...I read this three times going "What the hell is he talking about?" before I scrolled back to my post and went "Oh." The answer is, because I'm apparently on crack and typed "Force of Will" while my brain was thinking "Counterspell." Oops. Must go edit and fix that.Originally Posted by bigbear102
Yeah, you cut Counterspell before Force of Will. Generally my board plan for my 4C List goes like
-4 Standstill
-4 Counterspell
-2 Life From The Loam
-1 Krosan Grip
+4 Meddling Mage
+4 Extirpate
+3 Engineered Plague (It'd be 4 if I ran 4, which I will depending on the meta)
As I said, there are situations in which you'll have to adjust according to what you draw. However, Deed will sweep Zombies in a pinch, and here's four points as to why I won't Plague on Zombies unless I've got like, 3 in hand or am about to face certain death if I don't.2. Wouldn't Plaguing Illusions/Horrors just give them more zombies to kill you with? I would think (other than bridge/dredgers depending on when) you would want to get rid of Ich and Moeba to stop them from making the zombies. I guess you have a lot of ways to deal with zombies, but you have to live long enough to do so. Obv. if you have an explosives out for 0 you don't need to plague zombies right away. If you have no way to deal with bridge, then I would definitely name zombies.
1. I would only want to Plague Zombies while not holding an Extirpate.
2. If I'm not holding an Extirpate, I'm probably going to die unless I draw one.
3. If I draw one, I want to use it on Bridge from Below and thereby I'd rather have my Plague on Illusions or Horrors.
4. A horde of 1/1 Zombies can still kill you.
It is possible, however, to adjust and Extirpate Ichorid or Narcomoeba or GGT at this juncture. In fact, it's quite possible to win while Plague-ing Zombies. I just don't think that in most circumstances it's the correct strategy.
Huh. Guess Survival's catching back on.Also, on your comment about RGBSA earlier, there were at least 3 RGBSA at EPIC DLD, with 1 placing 2nd, and I believe there were 5/6 survivals total. At least 3 were in contention the whole time.
On a side note, I believe that 4c w/ deed is gonna be the way to go once Teeg becomes legal, depending on how many decks throw him in as combo hate, cuz he also hits wrath and humility.
Depends on the Survival Builds with Teeg, I think. Humility crushes BGW Survival, for instance, but is less effective on the Burning Wish-packing RGBSA. 4C w/ Deed, however, will be stronger against the BGW builds.
If Teeg Survival decks pick up too much, I'll have to re-examine maindecking Spell Snare over Stifle, the decision which causes me more agony than any other. I'm currently back with Stifle, but I might just say the hell with it and go to a 2/2 split.
Is there any particular reason people are using Wrath of God over Humility? Both of them are too slow to deal with Empty the Warrens, but at least Humility locks down the board against Threshold.
Humility is not a removal spell. While I was very enticed by the power of the card early on, atleast in the case of Landstill you should be more focused on removal spells when dealing with aggro decks. If it wasn't for the existence of Krosan Grip I would consider running it again. The truth of the matter is that in all of the matches that I would want Humility my opponent's at the least had access to be playing Krosan Grip.
Wrath of God is not too slow to deal with Empty the Warren's. Yes if they dump 10 goblins in play turn 1 and say go, Wrath of God will not save you. In my experience against TES they usually don't go for that turn 1 kill, instead they usually build up some mana resources and try and go off with Tendrils and only use Warrens as a last resort.
In regards to strategy against Ichorid. I don't play Mage or Plague and haven't lost a round against the deck in months. I also do not board out Standstill's. First off you will probably not win this match if you do not draw Extirpate. All you really need to do is Extirpate the Ichorid's and Standstill become's playable again. With Ichorid's gone the only other threat the deck has under Standstill are the Narcomeoba. The only way they have to find them is through normal dredge's. Even if they dredge up the Narcomeoba's and you end up having to break your own Standstill, you have bought atleast 6-7 turns worth of land drops and cards. The deck has 2 threat's in regard's to Landstill. First the reacurring of Ichorid's, very bad that is why they must be Extirpated ASAP. The second threat is the initial speed of the deck in relation to Landstill's ability to play it's defenses. More than once I have Extirpated a Ichorid turn 1 and dropped Standstill turn 2. Any time I have done this the Ichorid player smile's thinking me a complete idiot and I kill him 10 turns later. This strategy is only realistic if you are running Decree. I have however never considered it a good strategy to play Lanstill without Decree despite the success of others.
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You can also maindeck another Snare over the 4th Counterspell. I found than have a mix of counters in hand is far better than have a lot of one kind. So I play with 4 Fow, 3 Counter, 2 Snare, 3 Stifle configuration (I use 3 Stifle beacuse I do not play any basic land).
About the Ichorid issue I do not play Plague, but I think than Extirpate the Bridges is the way to go. If you do it, you can block with manlands or plowing the Ichorid until I can find another Extirpate for them. Moeba aren't really a problem with the bridges extirpated I can take some damage and eventually deed it.
Don't forget that EE takes care of Teeg just fine, not to mention Zombie/Goblin tokens, Goyfs, and most other creatures played these days. The setup of 3 Wrath and 3 EE has been working great against most strategies relying on creatures.
Actually that is not precisely correct if the player playing Teeg has already resolved one. Otherwise I could see your point.
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Ah, completely forgot about the whole X thing...
- 1) No one-line posts in the LMF; 2) This post is weak. - Bardo
Last edited by Bardo; 10-19-2007 at 12:14 AM.
I did quite a happy dance when I read the spoiler for Teeg. At the very least it forces any combo deck in the format to have a plan to kill off Teeg. The more card slots they dedicate to creature removal the stronger Landstill will become. As far as disposing of Teeg go's, I have been running Spellsnare and Chainer's Edict as 3 of's in my SB both of whitch can easily take care of him.
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Konsultant,
you mean diabolic edict?? Don't you run cunning wish? I think the UWb list you can find in germagic.de is already done to deal with Gaddock, and also the 4-color versions packs edict, stp, deed to destroy him.
Even if you run 3 wrath 3 explosive, you include 4 stp, 2/3 spell snare and counters (vial would be a problem as usual). Or also cicle some soldiers in combat (if possible). Gaddock would bring other aggro deck GW is pure aggro archetype that isn't a problem, adding a third color can screw them (we have crucible wasteland and maybe stifle).
Thank God they didn't print gaddoc as a UW creature :)
In recent italian tournaments I see UW landstill in top8, packing 2 disk 2 vengeance.... I think those players will shift towards other cards post-Lowryn.
By the way I agree that if the format is even more "linked" to "creatures" landstill has a good spot of course
Teeg is a very weak card against Solidarity, already our worst matchup. Usually I haven't any problem beating any other combo deck.
Teeg is a creature against a deck prepared to kill a lot of creatures. Maybe he can screw you, but every Landstill list have a lot of resources to deal with it: every list run 4 Mishra's Factory and 4 Swords to Plowshares, also every list run either 2/3 Nantuko Monastery or Decree of Justice, a lot runs Diabolic Edict/Innocent Blood or Cunning Wish for Diabolic, Ghastly Demise, Slaughter Pact and last you can counter it or play proactively a EE with sunburst 2.
I agree, Gaddock Teeg is very overrated, especially in Legacy. He stops very few decks and the ones that he does have more than enough ways of dealing with him. In every instance that I would want to board or play Gaddock Teeg, I think I'd just rather have Meddling Mage. Mostly for the same reason that Pithing Needle is played over Cursed Totem/Null Rod.
I whole heartedly agree, you aren't going to find Gaddock Teeg in any deck with Force of Will in it, altho' you may find him in R/g/w Zoo or B/g/w Aggro-Rock. He's really a "Meddling Mage" for decks that rely on discard. You're more likely to see him in Standard and Extended more than you'll see him in Legacy. If you really want a card that smashes combo and does other cool stuff, look up Null Rod.
Rod doesn't really stop what they Teeg can stop though, then again if you are running 4C Landstill the matches that Teeg wins you already win. I can see him in 3 Color versions as a complement to Meddling Mage.
Perhaps I did not come across clearly when refering to Teeg. I have no intentions of ever playing the card. It does however have the potential to be a format shaping card. I don't think it will directly impact Landstill in any way, shape or form.
I do think he will directly impact the SB of all the storm combo decks though. Especially in the Syracuse Meta all of the storm decks come playing a ton of SB hate for Landstill. If Teeg becomes an effective tool for Aggro-Control the Storm decks will have to adapt thier SB's whitch should remove some of the Landstill hate.
The TES decks in Syracuse have gone so far as to run 4x Orim's Chant and 3x Abeyance in the Main Deck. That isn't even mentioning the 5-7x REB in the SB.
As far as my playing the UW/B Cunning Wish Landstill list I have posted, I am still testing various forms of the deck but I do not find it is fast enough or redundent enough to deal with Cephalid Breakfast or Alluren. I am interested in the list posted by DukeLio, I will be testing some with that list and some of the other variations I have created. If I have any success with my newest list at the Vetern's Day tournament's coming up I will do some posting on that list then. For the time being I have been playing a UW/B version without Wish. I have added Chainer's Edict and even the good old Akroma's Vengeance into my SB in an attempt to make the deck capable of beating everything in the format again. I have a new list that appears to be able to beat everything in the format very consistently. The list however has no actual tournament play so it may very well suck horribly. The Veteran's Day tourney will be the first actual tourney for the deck so we will see how it does then.
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Fixed.
However, I do more or less agree with your assessment. Teeg and Blue don't get along, but Teeg and any creature-based GW, GWR, GWB, or GWRB deck do.
I agree with this assessment completely. The popularity of Teeg in other decks has a huge indirect impact on the amount of hate Landstill faces. If combo decks are going to be required to have answers to Gaddock Teeg, then those slots are slots not dedicated to stopping Landstill's answers to combo.
Dukelio made an excellent result without decree of justice and quagnot in place of eternal dragon.
Do you think decree is still a staple? 4c can win only with 4 mishra 2 monastery? ain't it too slow??
Decree is not a -staple- in the "must play" sense, but it's a very strong kill condition and you're better off playing it than not in a lot of builds.
4 Factory and 2 Monestary isn't too slow at all. Landstill doesn't have to rush its kill. What it is, on occasion, is too fragile. Most 4C Landstill builds will run either the third Monestary, Crime//Punishment, a Faerie Conclave, or something else to supplement this, and Meddling Mage from the board helps greatly.
However, if yo're good, just the six manlands is enough far more often than not.
First off speed should never be a real concern for Landstill. As long as you have a threat that will eventually win, that's all the speed that the deck requires.
I have often reffered to Decree of Justice as that card you don't need until all of a sudden, in the middle of the game, it's the one card you wish you had. I play 3 in the MD of every Landstill build I have played for years now. Decree is incredible against aggro decks like Goblins and Survival while still being the ultimate weapon in the mirror. The card to me, is a staple and always will be.
Just yesterday in the top 8 of our local tournament I dropped 3 angel tokens into play against a RGB Survival deck for a quick victory afterwards. One of the best things about Landstill is that your opponents creature removal is useless against you for the most part. Most of the time it even gets boarded out. When you go throwing an army of giant flyers into play after your opponent has boarded out there removal, that's all the speed the deck needs.
I spend the entire game stalling and keeping the board clear just to abuse the power of Eternal Dragons and Decree of Justice. That's the main difference, in my opinion, between the 4-color build and UW. The longer the game go's the stronger UW gets because it's win conditions become even stronger with every extra mana you can generate.
Legacy in general caps out the mana curve of almost all decks at around four to five. Being able to use cards that have an endless power level capability is how I win games.
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Speaking as a self-appointed paragon of 4C Landstill, I more or less agree with this. UW Landstill becomes stronger and stronger the longer that a game goes on. 4C Landstill is better at surviving a broader range of things and stronger in the early game, but its kill conditions are and probably always will be more fragile.
I have taken a liking to UW landstill, but I really want to play with Monasterys because they are amazing. Do you think I can play UW with just some basic forests? I really don't have the cash to buy Tropicals, but do you think it would be okay to run like 2 forests in it?
Last edited by ducKy; 10-21-2007 at 06:12 PM.
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