I am not sure what builds everyone is running, but i have found crucible to be alot better in my Ubg build. This mainly comes from not having access to monestaries. A crucible with a factory gives you a "free" chump blocker that keeps coming back, allowing you to draw into what you need. This has been a factor many games for me, however a 4/4 first strike certainly changes things...
Lmao. Agreed. But they shouldn't aim for Loam.Originally Posted by Nihil
Seriously, though. Aiming for the Loam instead of the Lands itself is pretty stupid, and while I hate to use that word due to having it reserved for a select few people, there's not much else that fits. Extirpate should either be aimed at the kill lands or aimed at a specific resource Landstill has. Advisory6000, for instance, is our local Train Wreck player. He aims at my Counterspells and Force of Wills in order to guarantee resolution of Haunting Echoes, and usually accomplishes exactly that.
It can also be correct at times to aim for Landstill's card draw or for the color-producing duals.
No Wastelands. I quit running Wasteland about six months ago and a lot of 4C Players are wisely doing the same. Interestingly, not running Wasteland skyrockets your consistency of having the green for Loam.
I agree with you that it's hardly even disputable that Loam is stronger in 4C without Wasteland. I'd still argue Loam is stronger in 4C even with Wasteland, but I could definitely see the arguments on the other side in this case.
I have Crucible in my Ubg build too, but I'm also running 2 Wastelands as well. Though tonight driving out to eat I pondered about whether to go ahead and run LftL since I'm already in green and the anti-synergy between Deeds and Crucible would disappear. I haven't decided yet, I think I still have the Crucible in there.
I've been kinda enjoying the UBG Landstill quite a bit here recently.
Well i'm glad not everyone has been seduced by tacosnape (yet).
After testing both list, a couple things have become obvious. Firstly, the 4-color takes alot more skill, and thought to pilot correctly. Secondly, the 4-color is better if things fall into place. However, i run into some trouble at the "things fall into place" part; i end up randomly loosing because of color-screwed hands, terrible top-decking, and waste / ports at the worst possible time.
The 3c's mana base is (obviously) more solid. Also, I feel the 3c list still has room to grow, and improve; i haven't really seen a set list. Regardless both lists have been performing well for me, and i guess it is up to personal prefrence as to which you like most.
While I may not be able to decide on which lists I want to play from now on, there is one thing for sure: I <3 Landstill. I just have a blast playing the deck and I think it's tons of fun.
I've been switching back and forth testing UWb and UBg Landstill builds. Honz, would you mind PM'ing me your UBg list? I'd like to compare it with mine and see what you're running.
I gave 4-Color-Landstill another try this weekend, but the metagame was just sick. At least 1/3 was all about combo.
1. Round: Mono W Angel Stompy (2:0)
It's a bye. I crimed an Exalted Angel, but he removed it with Parallax Wave and i forgot that it would return on his side, so i was in trouble for like 2 turns. But other than that he can't come up with that much removal and draw. (Fact revealing another Fact which reveals another Fact is sooo sick =] )
2. Round: Mono W Angel Stax (2:1)
I win the die roll and get multiple Standstill in game 1. I'm able to Counter all relevant spells like Geddon and Somestack and thats it.
In 2nd he lays down Defense Grid and Exalted which i just concede against, to have more time in the 3rd.
There i goddraw all my 4 FoW's get some Standstills down and Stick Geddon with MMage. Theres not much he can do from there.
3. Round: Solidarity (0:2)
First game i just can not win.
2nd game he just waits till he as everything (after me beating him to 5 with ManLands) and i draw nothing relevant. (Drawing Meddling Mage on turn 4-5 does not really help..)
4. Round: Solidarity (11)
First game i just can not win.
2nd game he draws too much land i have 3 Counterspells to disrupt his combo.
3rd is timeout and he fails to combo of in extra turns. I think i would've lost this in the long term.
5. Round: Mono Red Burn (0:2)
My first starting hand is pretty bad for this matchup. He has a single mountain and throws 3 to me each turn. He fnds his 2nd and 3rd land in time to finish me off... :/
2nd: Here i got punished for playing a Bayou over Tropical Island (just own 3) so i'm not able to counter his PoP backed up by a REB, myself holding BEB in hand. Damn... i wish i'd thrown in just another Fetchie :[
I'm happy i threw out Wastelands (look at my matchups o_O ) for a better base, which really helped.
I have a a question to you: What do you do against Solidarity ? Mulligan agressively into Meddling Mage ? Even Extirpate seems not really to help here, since he can go off with like 8 islands in play and not needing Resets at all...
The Deck for reference was:
3 Polluted Delta
3 Flooded Strand
3 Tropical Island + 1 Bayou
4 Underground Sea
4 Tundra
4 Mishra's Factory
1 Nantuko Monastery + 1 Treetop Village
3 Diabolc Edict
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Pernicious Deed
1 Krosan Grip
1 Crime/Punishment
4 Brainstorm
4 Standstill
3 Fact or Fiction
1 Life from the Loam
4 Force of Will
4 Counterspell
3 Stifle
SB
3 Extirpate
4 Meddling Mage
4 Engineered Plague
4 BEB
Joe Eigo
Considering there were no goblins and nothing that relies on the graveyard, I would've moved out Plagues and Extirpates and added something like Arcane Laboratory.
Solidarity is your absolute hardest combo match. But it's not an unbeatable one. I get to play this match a ton as I own both decks in real life. Here's some things you can do to help the situation.
1. Run a pair of Orim's Chants in sideboard. Solidarity is where you'll want the chants the absolute most. Don't throw the Chants until midway through the combo / counterwar (Obviously, do it before a Meditate resolves if you can't stop the Meditate.)
2. Don't counter High Tide. Your clock is too slow for High Tide to be a crucial spell to counter. Also, every High Tide they resolve gives you all the more blue mana to cast your counters.
3. Stop the Draw spells. The bulk of your countermagic should be aimed at their card-drawing spells. Early Extirpates should be aimed at their cantrips, like Brainstorm or Impulse (But not Opt unless you're sure they run four, and not Remand if you think they boarded in Twincast.) When they're going off, let them Tide and Untap all day long, but stop Meditate.
4. Mage with a plan. There isn't ever a correct thing to Mage for at all times. It depends on your hand. If you're very counter-light, you might want to name High Tide until you draw into more counters. If you're packing Forces and Counters, I prefer to name Meditate. Also, if you have a second Mage backing the first one up, consider naming Cunning Wish and following it with Brain Freeze (Don't do this against Red Tide, though, as the lock will get eaten by Sudden Shock.)
Ok, I've been toying with a URB version of Landstill. Here it is so far, very very unrefined, but each card has its uses:
4 Force
3 Counterspell
2 Mana Leak
4 Duress
3 Stifle- previously diabolic edict, not sure yet.
4 Bolt
3 Fire/Ice
3 Pyroclasm
4 Standstill
4 Brainstorm
3 Burning Wish
3 Delta
1 Strand (don't have a 4th delta yet...
2 Bloodstained Mire
4 Island
1 Mountain
1 Swamp
3 Volcanic
3 Underground
4 Mishra's Factory
Wish Bombs:
Echoes
Perish
Massacre
Clasm
Plagues are also in the board, after testing goblins today it is apparent that something permanent is needed to keep them down.
The 60th card is either a land or an Echoes, haven't decided yet.
I really like this build because it can handle both aggro and combo, but it does kinda scoop in the control mirror. That's why I think I want another Echoes main.
Duress: good against combo. TES doesn't normally have a duress proof hand while you are holding force/counterspell backup. With the increase in combo decks and aggro/control I think duress is very good in a deck with counterspells. Duress lets you pick gro's counters out before you echoes/perish them.
Bolt/Fire/Ice, mainly used as removal, but can go to the dome. It is almost exclusively removal though.
Pyroclasm: It deals with goblins, takes out warrens tokens, and beats up on survival's early game. Coming online turn 2 is very nice.
I am playing Mana Leak in here because I want the swamp and mountain. 3 counterspell and 2 mana leak fit very nicely in here, giving me just enough counters, and with duress I have more counters than most other control/aggrocontrol.
The problem with the deck is that 4 Mishra's factory are really hard to win a game quickly with. I have been testing ETW in my board as a wish target to get the game over quicker. I know it is pretty janky, but surprisingly, it works well. I don't normally cast it till late game, and with Duress/brainstorm can get it to 6 or 8 tokens pretty reliably. If anybody has any other ideas for a finisher throw 'em out there, I could use them.
EPIC Syndicate
-My hero
-I don't think this one was a joke...
@ Bigbear - Firstly, it has been my expierience that 8 counterspell slots is enough. 4 of those are obviously FoW, and the other 4 are either rune snage, or counterspell. If you think you can't find the UU for counterspells, go with rune snag, however i think it would be best to commit fully to one or the other. Have you tried 8 counters and found it to be not enough? Have you tried rune snag at all (most people haven't)?
I have never played a red version of the deck, but i think you would need atleast 2 engineered explosives; is there any reasoning against this? Also, i think 4 duress is uneeded, and you would rather have 4 diabolic edict in that slot. Once you have EE, you don't need duress as much. I tried MD duress in my UGB, and was never happy with it. \
Also, you might try a single faerie conclave, it has been decent for me.
just some suggestions...
Hello,
Pretty interesting deck. I agree that generally 8 counters is enough. I would lose the mana leaks to add 1 more counterspell and use the last spot to go towards a Engineered Explosives. I would want to run 2 engineered explosives so I would use your last card slot for that instead of the echoes.
I agree with you on the duress. It is excellent to use against TES and many fast combo decks that might give you a hard time in the early stages of a game. I wouldn't drop them.
Did you think about using damnation since you are playing black as a board sweeper?
I would replace the Perish in your Sideboard with a Damnation. Perish isn't particularly amazing in Landstill given how easily you can shut down Green Threat.Dec easily with Diabolic Edict (God, please tell me you've got those back in your list somewhere.)
I'd also consider a Cranial Extraction in your board. Landstill struggles mightily with Life from the Loam based decks, and this could give you a huge weapon against them, leaving you with only the task of shutting off Burning Wish.
Mana Leak sucks. You -will- reach a point in most games where your opponent has 3 mana to pay for every spell in his deck.
And in UBR? Engineered Explosives. Lots of them. They're artifact removal, enchantment removal, Tarmogoyf removal, and Empty the Warrens removal. Pretty sexy.
Yes, explosives is needed in the deck, i meant to change the list to show that.
What do you guys think about Stifle MD? I'm pretty sure the Edicts are going back in over them. Also, the Perish could easily become a Damnation. Cranial Extraction is also another card that is in there, but I don't actually have so it wasn't on the top of my head when typing last night.
What do you guys think of Promise of Power as a Wished for finisher? I can't find much else.
EPIC Syndicate
-My hero
-I don't think this one was a joke...
Just as an aside - Mana Leak very much does not suck. In fact, it's been better than Counterspell in my testing. I barely ever reliably have UU on turn 2, and in fact, I'd rather have UW, so I can StP or begin to set up Wrath. In either instance, Leak is far, far better. Past turn 4, you rarely have anything that needs countering, as you can generally deal with it through board control. The exception is possibly Deed (not a big deal) or Haunting Echoes (oops.), but you still have 4 Forces and an asston of Draw to find them.
Again, this is based on my UWg build, which is better equipped to deal a significant amount of damage faster, and deals with creature-based threats more readily. (Oh, and it runs basics.)
Hey Bigbear,
I am a huge fan of stifle maindeck. Edict only stops creatures where stifle can play great tricks on many decks. Against goblin it is a sinkhole for one blue because you take out wasteland. Also what deck does not run fetches, where you can stifle the ability?
The decks that see a lot of play in the cuse area is goblin and survival. They should have multiple creatures on the board so edict will read "Get rid of the worst creature in play, like that birds of paradise or mogg fanatic."
I personally would go with stifle.
Thanks
Although it's less relevant of a point in a deck without a true mass board sweeper like the URB build, Diabolic Edict isn't generally played as a top choice early in the game. It's much stronger after you've already swept the board of all the smaller threats. Engineered Explosives can take care of said weak creatures, though, as can the burn.
I think Diabolic Edict is the stronger choice of the two, but I think not having both maindeck in the modern meta is very risky. I think Edict is a far stronger choice than, say, Fire//Ice.
What do you think of this list?(by Marius Hausmann)
3 wasteland
4 mishras factory
4 flooded strand
4 tundra
2 island
1 plains
1 scrubland
2 underground sea
2 polluted delta
2 eternal dragon
3 engineered explosives
2 crucible of worlds
4 standstill
4 brainstorm
4 counterspell
2 stifle
2 fact or fiction
4 swords to plowshares
1 pulse of the fields
3 wrath of god
2 decree of justice
4 force of will
SB:
4 meddling mage
4 engineered plague
3 extirpate (against loam, frequently played in europe)
2 dismantling blow(cc against counterbalance)
2 pulse of the fields
Last edited by Muradin; 07-08-2007 at 08:04 AM.
MD pulse the fields seems aggresive at best. I would much rather have a 3rd stifle or 3rd FoF in its place. How has pulse been treating you?
Just a small point, but dismantling blow seems weak at best. If you fear counterbalance, seal of cleansing is a much better option (just play it before you let them resolve a balance). It also hadles other thresh problems, like top, and pithing needle. Seal has other uses as well, like survival, and chalice aggro (if you can drop it early). I havent personally tried it out, but it seems like a good fit...
Other than that it looks good. I would go with a different SB, but i don't know the european meta at all.
I have been playing Landstill variants since around 2005. I have only re-started playing mtg recently, and this is the deck I threw together and played at a local Legacy event. I don't believe it to be Tier 1 material, but I thought I would share it. Keep in mind that I built this to beat random aggro.
Land:
4 Flooded strand
1 Polluted Delta
4 Tundra
3 Tropical Island
3 Island
2 Plains
4 Mishra
2 Conclave
2 Maze of Ith
Counter:
4 FOW
4 CounterSpell
2 Forbid
Draw:
4 Brain Storm
4 Standstill
2 Fact or Fiction
1 Ancestral Vision
Spot Removal:
4 Swords
Mass Removal:
3 Wrath of God
2 Akroma's Venegance
2 Disk
Utility:
2 Decree of Justice
1 Life From The Loam
SB:
4 Stifle
2 Mage
4 HydroBlast
4 Blue E. Blast
1 Pulse of the Fields
I faired well and managed to secure first (and fist full of boosters). The only tier 1/2 decks I faced were Fish and Zoo, I beat both, but they were very close matches.
Thanks!
@ honz: The maindeck Pulse is most often used to put you out of range of the goblin-player. Usually against Goblins, you either loose G1 pretty fast or get to stabilize at around ten life. Then they start bleeding away your life total slowly with single hastgoblins/fanatics backed up by Port/Wasteland to get around you manlands. Thats where Pulse jumps in and forces the Goblinplayer to overcommit which makes him very vulnerable to Wrath.
It also has its uses in other matchups especially NQG/r where it stops them from burning you out after you stabilized the board and aggro-loam, which you can win only (mulligan to less then 5 and incredible bad luck on the loam players side excluded) by having a StoP for each of his Terravores, a counter/EE for each of his Seismic Assaults and then either kill them by decking if they Loam for Wasteland to aggresively or via a Dragon/huge Decree if they don't. As you usually have to take some damage early on, the Pulse is mandatory to stop them from burning you out (with their Terravores swordsed you'll get the Pulse back as often as you want)(everything i said about aggro-loam is only true if you manage to stick a crucible otherwise you never win at all).
The sideboard is built to have a winnable goblin-matchup (which is not really good, but I'd say playable) and to win against loam.
For the Counterbalance-Problem: If you really want a preemptive answer against the Balance, you can always cast EE/2, thats not the Problem, but the cool thing about Blow is that most Fish-Players have literally nothing at CMC 3 (they haven't quite started using Vindicate over here) and you actually get a chance to pay the kicker in some games. The single additional mana is not a problem at all, as you are probably going to have some time with the opponent playing a Counterbalance and trying to abuse it.
I know the guy who designed that version pretty well and he has tested it and it does work. He was Top8 at the last Bazaar-Liga-Tournament(on July 1st) again with nearly that build (at that time playing disenchants) and with Blow he'd probably have gone third as he had to draw against an active Counterbalance in the last round.
@ Muradin:
Marius runs CoP: Red over Pulse in his Sb, what made you going for additional Pulses instead of those?
@ Nantuko88:
a) I'd guess your Goblin-Matchup should be at like 25-75 preboard and what do you board out for those blasts? You need some solution to Vial that is faster than Disk/Vengeance. G2 and 3 you probably still lose against his Vials.
b) If you run Green for Loam already, why on earth wouldn't you play Nantuko Monastery over Faerie Conclave?
c) how often have you been able to pay buyback for the Forbids? I'd guess very rarely.
@ all:
Are Deed and Monastery really that good to run green? I'd guess G/B is not easier to get then WW for Wrath and at the time you can savely swing with a Monastery its not a problem to cast a Dragon or Cycle a big Decree for the win. What exactly makes 4-color-Landstill better than the build posted by Muradin?
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