Turbo Eldrazi, or 12post as most folks will name it, is a ramp deck with a very narrow core card list. Because of this the potential cards are large and because of the inordinate amount of mana you can generate the cardpool is increasingly magnified.
4 [TSP] Vesuva
1 [WWK] Eye of Ugin
4 [SOM] Glimmerpost
4 [FNM] Cloudpost
1 [ROE] Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 [ROE] Kozilek, Butcher of Truth
1 [ROE] Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre
Because this core constitutes a good chunk of your manabase it leaves the remainder of the deck up for considerable variation. The weakness of a deck where you are strongly encouraged to plant one of 4 cards into play, Cloudpost, is when your mana and selection are pressured. Thus increasing land tutors and hand improvement is paramount. That leaves us with an addition of some fixing.
[M11] Primeval Titan
[CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
[UL] Crop Rotation
[ZEN] Expedition Map
Finally there is a need for acceleration
[AQ] Candelabra of Tawnos
[US] Show and Tell
[M10] Pithing Needle
[IA] Glacial Chasm
[CMD] Bojuka Bog
It is in this last portion that the most variation is introduced and often the modifications to this will adapt the deck to your particular meta.
Since combo will give you the hardest time and the core of your deck is your mana base, you can afford to side in heavy amounts of cards without diluting your deck's potency, merely its kill's consistency. Since against combo you rarely care about winning before them, this is not a problem.
The concept of the deck is simple enough. You sacrifice early tempo and board control for late game overwhelming advantage through uncounterable win conditions, removal, and damage.
The difficulty of the deck is that your average archetype in legacy involves 2-3 decisions per turn with diminishing choices after the first three turns. Turbo Eldrazi is the exact opposite. You often have 1-2 decisions in the first two turns, and every turn thereafter the number of choices increases exponentially. By your turn 4-5 you often have to make more decisions than a normal deck makes in 3 games of magic. Compounded on this increase in number of choices, your first few choices have incredibly large impact for the remainder of the game. As a teammate Scott Hughes aptly stated, "With this deck you can play the wrong land on turn 1 and lose the game for yourself."
That being said, the most successful variant of the deck is as a Control deck that has the ability to combo finish.
Combo, especially random combo, is Eldrazi's hardest matchup. The reason is that restricting both the timeframe to build up mana and the avenue to interrupt their combo is the best way to counteract the holistic and inevitable defeat that Turbo Eldrazi brings to a matchup. Waiting will always result in a loss against Turbo Eldrazi, there is no competitive deck with a greater endgame.
Hand Keeping and starting concepts
Hand keeping is the most important skill with this deck. I have often said that if you aren't blown out by turn 3, you should win that game, and hand keeping is paramount to achieving that. Manafixing/preserving and a constant flow of land drops are your major early concerns so your starting hand will influence how you enable this flow. It is for this reason that I suggest heavy playtesting for anyone who wants to have success with the deck at competitive events. My best simple guide to hand keeping would best be put as a priority of axioms and some general rules.
Don't keep hands without turn 1-2 plays.
- The deck runs 21 cmc 1 spells on turn 1. Often you are clearing the counter-wall path for a crop rotation to resolve later, so don't be afraid of throwing spells into dazes and pierces early on if you have more relevant spells after them. My priority of willingness-to-get-countered in the early game is from lowest importance to greatest: Candelabra -> Pithing Needle -> Map -> Brainstorm -> Sensei's Divining Top -> Crop Rotation. As the game progresses those priorities shift, but for the purpose of opening hands I keep the more I have of cards on the higher importance group, with a caveat of multiple crop rotations not being strong.
Don't keep hands that require you to be unmolested for several turns in regards to discard/destruction.
- Have faith in the deck. I will often keep hands of 5-6 lands if there are Cloudposts in them or if the remaining 1-2 cards are strong cmc 1 spells like Brainstorm, SDT, or Crop rotation.
Keeping hands with Eldrazis in them are essentially mulligans to X-y, where X is your hand size, and y is the number of Eldrazis in your hand.
- This is not true of Primeval titans, since they are castable on turn 3 with candelabras and normal conditions, or on turn 5-6 under duress.
Don't keep hands on Show & Tell.
- Show & Tell is your plan B, not plan A. Plan A is sit around, not be pressured due to repeal/bog/karakas/Hatecards doing their jobs, and then casting your stuff. Show and Tell can be a supplement to your hand, but it should never be its primary goal and only avenue.
Don't be afraid of having Cloudposts get Wastelanded early.
- I will often play Cloudpost on the blind my first turn if possible if I don't have a needle or crop rotation, since it means that they MUST wasteland it that turn or fear me drawing into more answers. Most importantly, it means they cannot develop delvers/heirarchs/vials/lackeys. Hesitating with this deck can easily cause you to lose matches you would otherwise crush.
- Keep in mind that this logic is turned on itself when on the draw, where they can play their Turn 1 board advancement, and then wasteland your tapped Cloudpost while maintaining pressure.
Keep hands entirely differently based off playing or drawing.
- One of your best cards on the play is Repeal, but it becomes one of the worst on the draw.
- Against a blind opponent Pithing needle is weak on the play, but strong on the draw. The opposite is true against a known opponent.
- SDT is amazing on the play, but weaker on the draw. Despite it being weaker on the draw, it is still one of your strongest turn 1 plays.
- Hate lands, such as Tabernacle, Bog, Karakas, are stronger on the draw after they commit. Obviously Glacial chasm is weaker on the draw due to needing two land drops.
Dangerous and Risky keeps
- Low mana hands are your most dangerous keeps. they MUST have either multiple SDT's and/or brainstorms, with a clear path to additional mana and/or shuffle effects for increasing your odds of drawing mana should you see none.
- All colorless mana source (this includes bog/karakas) hands are dangerous if you have brainstorms and repeals as your only cantrips. Despite this, Vesuva, Expedition Map, SDT, and actual colored sources as outs are an extensive list of outs, so I list this hand as not dangerous.
- All colored mana source hands are not risky at all. Crop rotations can easily convert 4 colored mana sources into a Primeval titan, or 7 mana for eye of Ugin.
- Keeping complex hands are ok. Keeping a hand of Trop, Brainstorm, Brainstorm, Crop Rotation, Crop rotation, X, X is ok if you are on the play, and riskier on the draw, but not the end of the world thalia/Chalice-withstanding. In this situation you brainstorm their eot, keeping Crop rotation up at all times for a response to wasteland, brainstorm eot, if you see nothing you crop rotate in upkeep to shuffle, draw and hope, if you see nothing brainstorm in your turn and now you've looked at 7 additional cards for a land and can still shuffle in your next upkeep should the worst happen.
Matchup Analysis and linchpin suggestions:
This matchup is entirely dependant on your build, but comes down to what removal spells you are running and what sideboard options you have against them. Chalice is not a strong choice against them since despite them running massive numbers of 1 CmC spells, you do as well and their threats come down first. Better answered involve hindering their mana, which is often streamlined to be spent every turn. Wasteland hugely hurts them, sphere-type effects are ok, but best are propaganda type effects, which force them to choose between damage or board advancement. Elephant Grass is the best answer at the moment. Repeal hits transformed Delvers for 1 mana and draws a card. Candelabra is a liability since they lose to Show & Tell -> anything, which normally is not the case. If they do not have threats then just play land drops and pass. Never walk into counters with crop rotations if possible.
Show & Tell for Primeval Titan should be your main goal in this matchup. Pithing Needle as usual always names wasteland. Don't try to get cute and name things that aren't wasteland like Knight of the Reliquary or Qasali Pridemage. Wasteland for all needles all day long. In comes
The Tabernacle. If they run Armageddon then put in counters, namely Flusterstorm.
This is a brutal matchup as you run Show & Tell as well and can't afford to go for it against them. Game one is horrendously against your favor and comes down to absurd situations like repealing Omnishow or hoping they go for infinite-mana kill and glacial chasm'ing in response. Game two Venser comes in with all your counters. The goal should just become put Venser in your hand, and put karakas in play to bounce it indefinitely. Obviously side out Show & Tells. Be prepared for Blood Moon, Rebs and Overmaster. If they are running Sneak attack always name Sneak Attack first with Pithing needle, Sneak attack Second, Sneak attack third. If omnishow name Griselbrand. You go positive match percentage if you include three games, if two games then you are slightly lower than favorable.
This matchup is vastly in your favor. While counterbalance hits many of your spells, the lack of threats allows you to simply wait and win against any number of counterspells. The only way they can beat you is early clique with counterbalance & top, or counterbalance top and an early Entreat. Humility doesn't stop you, only hinders your Primeval Titan plan.
After your life total is in the 10-14 range, you should prioritize glacial chasm. Stabilizing for 3 turns should be plenty to Show & Tell a Titan or achieve Eldrazi love. Post side Tabernacle comes in, Elephant Grass is great. Revoker can come in if you feel you need the blockers, but pithing needle is often the superior choice.
Game 1 your only real avenue of play is Bojuka bog to throw off cabal therapy math, gain massive life from a Show & Tell'd Titan, or repeal a chrome mox in response to infernal tutor'ing. Game Two you bring in massive counters, Tabernacle, and an often-changing sideboard hate array. needle is no good, I side out maps often, 2 eldrazis, 1-2 titans. Keep in your brainstorms as on-top counters win games. If you're playing against 5c, realize you will need multiple counters, one for silence and one for their kill.
Your "best" combo matchup. They can't Brain freeze you without incredibly large effort. Still, game one is a nightmare. Needle or stop their candelabras, but Really just go to game 2. Side in Venser (on island), Traps, Chalices, Flusters, the whole shabang. You can safely side out chasm and bog, needles, Show & tell, all is dust. I alternate between if I like Show & Tell in this matchup or not. Still not sure after 100s of tested games.
New Matchups added for recent meta:
Death and Taxes:
This is a taxing control deck so treat it as such. Show & Tell Titan often blows them out, and you very rarely get to Eldrazi-casting mana levels. Titan is your plan 90% of the time. Never ever ever keep low mana hands against these guys. A 7 land hand is a snap-keep hand against anything taxing. Needle naming usually go in this order: AEther Vial, Wasteland, Rishadan Port. If Mangara is lingering about you name it of course, and the same for unequipped equipment. There are only two real threats in the deck, Aven Mindcensor and Cataclysm. You can be prepared for both by siding in Force of will or Swan Song.
The true remnant of the aggro decks, this deck will lord-kill you on turn 4-5. Again you name AEther Vial first, then Wasteland. Glacial Chasm is often an easy win aveune against them. Don't be afraid to seemingly set yourself back on lands if you know you can vesuva later or have crop rotates. Do the math on how many turns you're saving with cumulative upkeep versus their attacks when you're deciding the turn to chasm. Show & Tell Titan is your main plan here again. Sweepers are awkwardly weak against this archetype, but cards like moment's peace are incredible.
Pithing Needle or chasm are your only plans game 1. This is winnable but mostly requires scouting or luck with their deck pittering out. Very rarely they'll go for a past in flames plan, which lets you crop-bog them. Game two your whole sideboard comes in and at that point the only enemy is the clock.
Easiest matchup ever. They don't interact with you. Just plow them over. I think you could roll dice for what card to play each turn and still bulldoze them.
So long as you don't get greedy with your land searching this matchup is quite easy. Having innate protection against grindstone combo is great. Needle mucks them up, and they just become a 2/2 aggro deck game 1. Don't fetch out one basic only to get the land reb'd. Vesuva copies supertypes so vesuva'd basics are basic lands under blood moon. Important to remember that you can't use Eye of Ugin with Painter out since the creature isn't colorless. Just play for a slow-grindy match and you'll win. Jaya is the only real threat. Game two you bring in Revokers/Grips/Forces/Planeswalkers and just roll them.
One of your harder matchups at the moment, but by no means hard. Needle on Lilly is often the plan, but sometimes you have repeals to infinity and wasteland is the better play. Don't not-name wasteland with a crop rotate in hand because BuG specializes in making your play off the top. One of the reasons why SDT is your best card in this matchup. Ensnaring Bridge, Planeswalkers, Show & Tell Titan are all incredible plays. Assume every Titan is going to be liliana'd.
Easiest of all the delver decks. THey run STP and Bolt main, and their counters rely on taxed mana which you blast by, but they lack the cantrips or stifles of RuG. Similar to rug they rarely run artifact removal on the main so Needle will stick all of G1 and thus cementing Glacial Chasm. Game two you bring in bridge and grips.
Sneak And Show:
Game 1 you're hoping for them to blind Show & Tell a monster, and you put in a monster that attacks first or that tutors up karakas. Your only name on Pithing needle is Sneak Attack. Revoker comes in and you should expect blood moon. Game 2-3 can go very long so watch your timely play. Expect Jace and Through the Breach.
Crop Rotation is your go-to responsive answer either for bojuka bog or Karakas. Don't be afraid to Show & Tell a titan against them even though that seems suicidal. Game two you side out titans though and the match becomes truly grindy. Side in counters. The only creatures you have to actually deal with are ashen rider and tidespout tyrant.
Main deck you win by getting Glacial Chasm versus their Craterhoof Behemoth plan. Game two you can go a counter plan or chasm+needle and hope they don't get their removal before you win. My preferred method is a mix of both. Moment's Peace is great versus these guys. Pithing needle should name Deathrite Shaman, then Wirewood symbiote. Get two out for the viridian shaman.
3rd Set of new matchups
This matchup entirely depends on where/if you run Phyrexian Revoker. If you do, your plan is windmill it asap. Dig and windmill. Remember that Ugin can tutor Revokers. so 9 mana is your beakpoint of 7 mana to tutor, 2 to cast. Their secondary plan of aggro with 3/3 flyers doesn't work against Turbo Eldrazi because we have such absurd life gain and chasm.
This deck is blood moon, Chalice @ 1, Storage Counter Red Lands, 2 Tapping Lands, Seething song, Sneak Attack, Through the Breech, and Pyromancy with enormous bricks. Sadly this is easily your worst matchup in all of Legacy. Their explosiveness is extremely difficult to interact with, Show and Tell is dead versus them (unlike every other blood moon deck), they don't slow down with their hate cards, and their speed is impressive. Ensnaring bridge is your best bet versus them, but you need to survive until turn 3-4. Still then Pyromancy can end you. Revokers, needles, Engineered Explosives and all your counterspells should come in. Essentially 15 cards.
This isn't new but apparently I didn't have the deck listed as matchups. This matchup comes down to show & tells and crop rotates. Crop rotate is your supreme silver bullet. Wait for them to dig deep and then respond to narcomoeba trigger(s) with a crop rotate for bojuka bog. Pithing needle can slow them down on Putrid Imp, or Cephalid Coliseum. And if they are going slowly, Phyrexian revoker on LED is strong. Remember you can also Phyrexian Revoke "Street Wraith." Game 1, pre Ashen Riders, they often have zero outs to Glacial Chasm. Be prepared for them to bring in Leyline of Singularity to stop Bojuka bog. Show & Tell Titan is again your trump play.
You would think that recurring wasteland.deck is a bad matchup, but that couldn't be further from the truth. The key to this matchup is tactfully playing your bojuka bog. Not letting them waste your bojuka bog before you're vesuva'ing it. And not forgetting that you need to keep up bounce for their marit liege. If you do 2 of these actions once in one game, they lose all their steam. Pithing needle stops them cold. Simply play safe and passive.
While the core of this deck is set in stone, the entire sideboard and 5-7 slots main are flex slots. They are adaptable based on meta shifts and/or exploratory builds. I often change my deck weekly and sometimes daily within these shifting slots. I will post my newest lists that are successful, but if you dislike oft-changing lists, this may not be the best deck for you.
Ask for More Matchup breakdowns and I will include them
Card Availability and Choices:
Last edited by Rock Lee; 09-11-2014 at 11:13 AM.
Finally. This deserved a proper thread here.
Any thoughts on the GW and mono Green 12-Post lists that have been showing up recently? I'd cite some lists but it may not be necessary.
The mono Green lists I mention several times in the Development thread, but to simplify it, If combo becomes less prevalent and Glacial chasm stops a larger portion of the meta, without Abrupt decay seeing play, then Mono Green could become the wiser play. Running Forest's only real benefit is that it gets around Magus of the Moon, which in an abrupt-decay Deathrite-Shaman enabled meta, seems foolhardy.
You should ironically use the artwork for Lay Bare as the cover picture in the OP.
Just a quick question, is this thread exclusive for the green/blue list or can other variants like mono-green be discussed aswell?
I notice you haven't seemed to be playing much with All Is Dust, which seems like the most powerful removal spell the deck has at its disposal. What's your reasoning here?
And again, congrats on the Open finish. That was awesome.
Why do you state that the deck is "control"? To me it looks like like you play ramp & combo elements (Show&Tell, Primeval) where you can ignore everything fair that your opponent does, but will likely have a bad matchup against unfair decks. The control elements you run seem to have the primary purpose to extend the game until you cast emrakul or to protect your manabase.
- Crop rotation toolbox (Karakas, Bojuka Bog, Glacial Chasm)
- Pithing Needle (vs. Wasteland)
For my understanding this is a slow combodeck which cannot be easily disrupted, but does not have the characteristic of a control deck, which primarily stops the opponent from doing whatever he is doing and then (if combo) finishing with a combo.
No freaking idea...
The Spanish are putting up top 8s with mono Green, and others splashing white, and/or Black for StP/Deed. Check TCdecks under Post Ramp.
I dont agree that they are Maverick, It isnt even the same deck.
How With 4StP, A single Teeg and a few Green Suns?
The earliest record of Cloudposts top 8'ing(on TCdecks search) is 4 months before Rock did, but a different list using Chalice, Trini, and Tangle(notice his strange Spirit Guide split for no apparent reason).
Same search also yielded another player in the same event as you did Rock Lee, top 8'ing with a Miracle based list. Have you tried these as well?
Here than there is the build I run with Eldrazi. The deck essentially tries to be a full on combo deck, that is slower than most aggro decks and all combo decks. I applaud his bravery, but if you look at his standings, he is always knocked out by established combo and aggro decks that are simply faster than he is.
I still periodically dabble with the Miracle U/G TurboEldrazi lists, and I'm not sure that I've ever had a Devastation Tide in hand and said "aww man I wish this was All Is Dust".
Finally in the Established Decks! I hope for more Eldrazzi finishes :)
I have named all manner of insane things like Gempalm incinerator, Helm of Awakening, Sterling Grove, Basalt Monolith just to name a few. I have yet to find a competitive deck that doesn't have something to hit.
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