SFM less, bladeless decks all suffer from the same problem, no clock. That's why I'm not inclined to play the terminus countertop version. With cavern, counter based control is even worse. That's the main reason I haven't been pursuing bladeless versions. I'll be getting my entreats soon and I look forward to testing it. I feel that it's splashiness warrants having it as a 1 off main, most likely replacing Elspeth and probably another in the board, as another bomb when you board out the sfm package.Originally Posted by Sygg_River_Landlord
Question, if you are testing terminus, which would you replace in the board, engineered explosives, path or wrath? I'm inclined to pick replacing ee, because though versatile, it's main use is as a cheap. Sweeper, which is exactly what terminus is, a conditionally better cheap sweeper. So a 2/2 Wrath/terminus split is ok? I don't fancy drawing too many terminus early and get them stuck without brainstorm. Ditto wrath because it's 4cc, so a split is best?
well, I don't know. I would cut wrath completely and keep at least one explosives especially if you play with academy ruins. Sometimes you can kill choke with it and it is also very useful against enchantress or jitte or other random non-creature stuff. If you only go for terminus in the sideboard I would cut 2 wrath and 1-2 path.
I'm not too fond of PtE at the moment. Right now, the MUs where we need more removal, we don't need more targeted removal. I would keep the EE, and replace the PtEs with Cursed Totem and, if you're so inclined, the WoG with Terminus.
In regards to WoG VS Terminus...
How often do I topdeck a WoG while behind and not want/need to use it that turn?
How often would tapping one W as opposed to 2WW be relevant when playing against Choke, Wasteland, Thalia, Daze, and Spell Pierce?
How often am I going to have an opener with a Terminus and no access to Brainstorm within the first 4 turns?
How relevant is the 2 extra mana to flash back Terminus with Snapcaster?
How relevant is "bottom of the library" as opposed to "destroyed?"
And in regards to whether or not UWx hard control can be a deck... I doubt it. Terminus is good, but not format warping good. And even if it is, it doesn't have much to do with the Stoneblade thread. It's not so much a matter of Control Deck X being bad per say; it's always a matter of it being worse than its hybrid control counterpart.
yeah, sure my decklist belongs somewhere else, sorry for that, I post it in the correct thread later on.
On the other hand terminus is only a sideboard card for stoneblade IF you board out the stoneforge packages which I did a lot while I was on U/W before switching to esperblade. I am really trying to get back to U/W but not sure if stoneblade or u/w control with entreat/jace as finisher.
Somehow the stoneforge package feels so bad against maverick and too slow against rug same for ur-delverburn.
The two best Tier 1 decks are just not easy matchups what you guys think?
I'm not sure why you'd have to side out the SFM package any more with Terminus than you would with WoG. In fact, using the extra mana to drop a SFM post-Terminus sounds pretty good. Terminus with Entreat the Angels sounds infinitely worse since you are down a card, all your angels, and Entreat doesn't even go back in. At least if you Terminus your own SFM, you still have the equipment and the SFM goes back to your deck.
The SFM package generally isn't the best against Maverick due to their access to a lot of virtual artifact removal. I really like Cursed Totem for Maverick and it might be good enough to make SFM good here.
As for RUG and UR, I think SFM into Batterskull is essential. I don't know why you'd ever board it out in either MU. Batterskull is basically a win against UR and very nearly so against RUG. At the very least, it's a solid answer to Mongoose.
RUG is fine. Maverick needs a lot of work. Terminus may be what we need. People are also starting to adopt Cursed Totem. We'll see.
sure, some things will change.
For me stoneforge into batterskull always felt too slow. Mystic mostly does not survive one turn or the token gets stifled and you have to play around daze, so you can normaly play mystic around turn 3-4 (one land get stifled or wasted) and than you still need one more turn to get Batterskull online. Most of the time I fetch jitte against RUG only batterskull if I have enough lands to hardcast it soon and/or force/pierce to save mystic from dying.
I don't like lingering souls... terminus and cb is one way of playing blue control/semi-control. I however invented the wheel again. Ancestral vision.
CREATURES (10)
2 Vendilion Clique
4 Snapcaster Mage
4 Stoneforge Mystic
SORCERIES (8)
4 Ancestral Vision
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
INSTANTS (12)
4 Brainstorm
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Force of Will
PLANESWALKERS (4)
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
ARTIFACTS (2)
2 Batterskull
LANDS (24)
4 Wasteland
4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
1 Swamp
2 Plains
2 Island
3 Underground Sea
3 Tundra
1 Scrubland
SIDEBOARD
1 Gideon Jura
1 Crucible of Worlds
2 Thoughtseize
2 Spell Pierce
4 Surgical Extraction
2 Perish
1 Umezawa’s Jitte
2 Diabolic Edict
Basicly you interact with your opponent from every angle (discard, counters, pressure, removal) almost like team america. But instead of running fragile wincons you have sfm and planeswalkers and instead of taxing counters you run real cards. Ironicly the card i don't want run is hard to deal with (Lingering souls).
What do you guys think?
I think it'll be better running 1 jitte main over the other Batterskull. Most metas nowadays are shifting to esperblade over traditional UW blade lists.
just my two cents
I'm running a fairly stock UW list. What should I look for in the RUG Delver matchup? Obviously, fetch (safely) as many basics as possible in order to not get blown out Wasteland x 2 early, but beyond that, what specifics should I watch for?
Batterskull. Especially G1, they really can't deal with it.
My creature suite is currently 4 SFM, 4 Snapcaster, 2 Clique (I like his versatility and having a total of 6 Flash equipment carriers is nice), but I find that keeping my guys around versus RUG is difficult (countermagic + burn + their guys trade/are bigger than my guys). I could run Geist, but I don't really think he does anything well other than beat face (whereas Clique beats for less, but is far more versatile). Thoughts? Maybe run more Spell Pierce?
@Arsenal:
Based on experience, my usual strategy is to drag the game a little further when I'm up against RUG. Common knowledge is to fetch basics early on. Also, an opening hand with a least 1 STP is recommended as RUG would usually try to land that Turn 1 delver if they are on the play. Most of the time. If your game reaches mid to end, you get the upper hand against them assuming you made that they were unable to flood the board with a number of threats. Take note of their cards on hand. At some point, you would usually run into an attrition fight to the point that they would commit everything and end up in topdeck mode. 90% of the time, I usually end up recovering faster. It's ok if they burn out most of your critters as long as they dont have any as well. Stifles on batterskull are backbreaking.
*BTW, Im using 2 Mirran Crusaders and 2 cliques for my build. They have been awesome against mongoose. Yeah they get burned but better that directing the burn spells to you.
You really want to board out the SFM package against RUG. Initially I though SFM was great against them but they almost always play ancient grudge. I played against 2 RUG players at a fairly high level tournament lately and both times I was blown out by grudge in. You invest so much and then get your equip blown up by a grudge. It's worse because you can't deal with the flashback most of the time and if they blow both batterskull and jitte, the SFMs you draw in the future are dead draws.
I'm still on the fence on Terminus (due to timing issues with brainstorm). But I think Entreat is the real deal as a "finisher". I feel that traditional UW needs a little "umph" to push it over the top in the late game. Sometimes I feel like the deck needs a little more raw power (ie black splash for lingering), and Entreat does that very well. It's a GG card that is quite efficient for it's manacost and wins games straight up no matter how down you are in board position.
What do people think about Firespout in the SB with the red splash? Personally, I wouldn't be running green at all, and it'd just be for the red half. It seems good against Maverick, killing everything except KotR (which can just be path'd or w/e), gets around Teeg in that match-up, which I find to be incredibly relevant, and is cheaper (so it has more play ability against RUG Delver. I mean, it has it's downsides too, such as (without the green splash) not killing flipped Delvers and not killing anything fucking huge like a Progenitus, but I think the cheapness of it gives it good value against Mongeese and things like Thalia.
I mention this because I got reamed by Maverick yesterday and they had a Teeg on board, which made both my EE and Terminus completely dead. Does anyone have any experience with Firespout?
On Entreat the Angels, I was playtesting it yesterday and I found it very difficult to cast, even after setting it up. The fact that you can't crack a fetchland when you reveal it in order to cast it was extremely relevant in my small amount of testing. I almost always Brainstorm with a fetch out and then drawing it was just the worst, especially when I wanted it, because I couldn't get the land from the fetch without either keeping it in my hand or getting rid of it. Plus, the match-ups where it's very good (e.g. Maverick) make it difficult to have WW on the spot, without having two basic plains, which I can't find room for if I want a Karakas in my list. UW Stoneblade (even with the red splash) really prides itself on an incredibly stable mana base.
Wrong. Miracle is a static ability linked to a triggered ability. You sure can respond to the triggered ability.The fact that you can't crack a fetchland when you reveal it in order to cast it
Rules Advisor
This is great to know. Thanks man.
Yeap, you draw it, reveal it and the trigger goes on. Then you can crack your fetch to get the 2nd white. I've found it really slow as well. I only tested it because I was unhappy with Elspeth. I've since gone back to 4 Jaces. Jace=always good. Pitches to force, bounces Delvers and all around super bomb. Don't know why we aren't playing 4 already.
Then again I still believe entreat is better than Elspeth. I don't find Elspeth good in this deck at all. It simply does not change games. I have cut entreat from the main because it's situational and only good in the late game but I've kept 1 copy in the board for the sfm-less plan.
As for the red splash for spout, I think the black splash for perish is better. You get to kill the green bigs too. That said, Mav is always a hard mu.
I wrote up a tournament report about running Esper Blade at a 63-man legacy event.
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...ohnson-City-NY
I was almost certain once you reveal the miracle, you have to pay, and you can't crack fetchlands to pay for the miracle. I was certain they were linked as one entity.
-Matt
When the trigger goes on the stack, of course you can respond to it by fetching. The thing is just that if you put the trigger on the stack and then pass priority by asking your opponent "ok?" or something stupid, if he then says "yes", the trigger resolves. When the trigger is resolving, you have to pay the mana, so then you can't go fetching.
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