Cascade Hypergenesis

[Master Shake]

just a thought. we can use Supply/Demand. it is multicolor, it pitches to FoW and it can find everything we need but mana: Progenitus, Archangel, Despair, a cascade spell, Maelstrom Pulse/Mortify (both seems better than vindi here, i suppose), Jund Charm (seems more useful than spout) etc. on the other hand it makes us slower a turn and sometimes makes spirit guides quite uneuseful, so dunno.

Except that when you Cascade you're liable to hit Supply.

[ykpon]

Except that when you Cascade you're liable to hit Supply.

i thought in this way: cascade looks at the total cmc 5 (like Dark Confidant) and goes to the next card. nvm if i'm wrong

[Nonex]

Dark Confidant doesn't look at split cards that way, no one actually does. Split cards just provide two answers to every question they're asked.

Dark Confidant: What's your CMC?
Supply/Demand: 2, and 3.

You lose 2 and 3 life (not exactly the same as losing 5).

Cascade spell: Do you have CMC 2 or less?
Supply/Demand: Yes, and no.

Since one of the answers is valid, this card is valid.

[gottfrid]

One problem as I see it is that you obviously don't want hypergenesis stuck in your hand. that's why I think it's correct to only play two (hypergenesis), cut the bad cascade card (the red black one) and add show and tell.

This makes for a more stable manabase and provides an extra out against chalice @ 0, extirpate and counterbalance which all wreck the combo.

Im still trying to figure out which is best of Fow and thwart, considering you pretty much need every card in your hand for the combo to be good.

It's a real shame that split cards are played by the cascade effect, not because I like the multicolor tutor one bit, but rather because fire // ice would be a very fine addition to the deck by cantripping and killing early creatures. Can someone verify that fire // ice will actually stop the cascade.

Anyway, here's a list Im testing:

CREATURES (22)
4 Empyrial Archangel
4 Bogardan Hellkite
4 Angel of Despair
4 Progenitus
3 Elvish Spirit Guide
3 Simian Spirit Guide
ENCHANTMENTS (4)
4 Ardent Plea
SORCERIES (6)
2 Hypergenesis
4 Show and Tell
INSTANTS (8)
4 Violent Outburst
4 Force of Will
LANDS (20)
4 Flooded Strand
2 Windswept Heath
2 Wooded Foothills
2 Polluted Delta
2 Island
1 Plains
1 Mountain
1 Forest
1 Tundra
1 Taiga
1 Plateau
1 Tropical Island
1 Volcanic Island
SIDEBOARD
4 Leyline of the Void
4 Krosan Grip
3 Thwart
4 Arcane Laboratory


Any suggestions?

[Master Shake]

@gottfrid - Arcane Lab seems Megabad. I think you'd want to run at least 8 rainbow lands because you want to always be able to cast either of the cascade cards off any 2 lands, or be able to drop outburst off and 2 Spirit guides and a single land. City of Brass and Gemstone Mine really don't have a down side as you shouldn't be casting many spells. Even Forbidden Orchard's downside is going to be minimized when you drop something like Hellkite or Progenitus into play. In all of the playing I did today, I never lost due to any number of Spirit tokens.

@ykpon - I really wish that it didn't work that way because Demand would be really great, it could tutor for a dumbass creature or a Cascader.

If Hypergenesis gets stuck in your hand, you can always suspend it.

I was testing the deck for the first time and Bogardan Hellkite is certainly going to find a place in my board, but for the MD I like SSS and/or Sundering Titan.

I think you need to consider what you're going to do against control for the SB. Also, I'm looking for something to make combo winnable - Resolving Hypergenesis against ANT meant I always lost.

Against Threshold/Landstill I think that 3 Hypergenesis or a back up plan like Show & Tell is a must. Right now I'm running 3 Dread, 4 Plea & Outburst, but I can see the 3 Dreads becoming Show and Tell. I'll test my list a bit more and get back with my results.

My Current List:

4 Angel of Despair
3 Simic Sky Swallower
2 Empyrial Archangel
4 Progenitus
2 Sundering Titan (Missing a Levithian and SSS, but these guys may stay around or move to board.)
3 Inkwell Levithian
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Elvish Spirit Guide

4 Force of Will
1 Misdirection (I don't own but intend to go up to 61 to add)
4 Violent Outburst

3 Demonic Dread
3 Hypergenesis

4 Ardent Plea

4 Forbidden Orchard
4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine
1 Tarnished Citadel
1 Taiga
1 Savannah
2 Tropical Island


My current SB: (likely to see a lot of changes)

4 Form fo the Dragon
4 Krosan Grip
4 Bogardan Hellkite
2 Eureka
1 Show and Tell

My observations about the deck after play testing for about 4 hours:

Cascade - You Must Cascade but you May play the Casaded card. Which means if they flip to Counterbalance for your Cascade Enabler, then you will be able to see if there is a Zero-Cost on top that can counter your Hypergenesis.

If your opponent ever starts responding to the spell before you start cascading, be glad because that means they may not be intending to counter Hypergenesis. Stifle sucks, though.

Progenitus, Empyrial Archangel, Simic Sky Swallower and Inkwell Levithian, none of these creatures block Goblin Piledriver.

Violent Outbusrting blockers into play is amazing.

Empyrial Archangel sometimes is Spore Frog.

In control heavy metagames, I think the mostly shroud plan is the way to go. For other metagames I can see just wanting to beat for as much damage as fast as possible.

Orim's Chant is kind of like Hinder against this deck.

Its a lot more resilient than I guessed and than you may guess. Chalice at zero and/or Trinisphere still sucks, though.

Sideboard stuff

I was having a lot of trouble with ANT even if I was able to combo, like I said And so I was brainstorming ways to deal with it, here's a short list:

Kaervek the Merciless - Making spells equate to damage seems good. they can really only Ad Nauseam for about half the number of cards.

Decree of Silence - It doesn't deal damage but it is +3 CA if you back this up with just about any creature you should have a good chance of getting there.

Spirit of the Hearth - It gives you protection from cards that win the game but you are open to bounce spells. Not dead in multiples like Kaervek and Decree of Silence, though. But this cat also isn't a very good clock.

True Believer - Keeping in trend with my suggestions for how to combat the combo mirror, True Believer is great if your opponent doesn't have access to a bounce spell. Simply cascading into him would be really cute if it worked, but it probably won't work.

Form of the Dragon - The only real non-creature solution the deck has access to. It puts you in a bad position against burn, but you don't scoop up a bunch of cards to WoG. Amazing in multiples and should have huge surprise factor as no one is likely to bring in Krosan Grip. Keeps ground pounders at and arm's length.

Eureka - Its one of the solutions I have for combating Counterbalance other than trying to go off faster. The 4-cost is difficult to play CB and against threshold you should have some time to assemble mana. This may be better as Show and Tell, but this is what I'm testing for the moment.

Bogardan Hellkite - Another card to bring in against control. Even if it gets sent to the RFG zone it has dealt five damage. Really great against aggro decks as it can clean up any swarms that they lay down off Hypergenesis.

Nullstone Gargoyle - I've been terrified about WoG and this was one of my early solutions to deal with it. He doesn't seem like he's going to be as great as I hope he will be as its generally pretty easy to throw one spell at him and then resolve the spell you care about. The good news is that if you Cascade with him in play the Genesis will resolve, the bad news is that your opponent's counterspell can resolve as well.

Blazing Archon - Keeps swarms at bay, but he's only going to be useful against aggro decks that don't have access to removal, this could however win against Ichorid, which is what I'm most hopeful for. Probably won't make the cut, however.

Sundering Titan - Against a control deck Titan will take away most of the advantage they would gain off of Hypergenesis, another potentional answer of mine to WoG. Still no good answer on Humility, though.

I'm out of sideboard ideas for now aside from Leyline of the Void.

Edit: Wow I just tested my 3 Demonic Dread slots as Show and Tell and it was amazing. I'm pretty sure I'm just going to cut the Dreads and run Show and Tell. I may cut back down to 2 Hypergenesis but I'm still liking three of them.

[gustha]

Hi everyone. I'm interested in this deck (always interested in new things) and I'd like to ask: has anyone tried to sneak in some ancestral vision to refill the hand? It may be good against control deck, and its suspended cost is viable to being played from hand.

[gottfrid]

@gustha: It destroys the combo, unfortunately.

Otherwise it might've been too slow or pretty good. it's also really easily countered


Also, Im willing to agree that archangel seems pretty bad. The blue card is much needed for FoW however and I don't think that inkwell leviathan or SSS is better.

[gustha]

Yes, but if you fail to combo twice, or in mirror match, you're much willing to remain with no fuel. However, i've tested a couple of matches, and i strongly prefer bogardan hellkite above all (magister sphinx + 2 bogardan = I win ^^). I noticed that there's no way to fill our hands, the redundancy of fatties don't help too much. Unfortunately, tutoring/manipulating spell cost less then our cascade spells...

[sunshine]

The problem with Ancestral is that you never want to be hitting it while you're cascading. Either Hypergenesis resolves and you get to dump you hand or it doesn't and you keep the fatties in hand and so have no need to refill it if you have the ability to cascade again. Also, suppose for some reason that you do need to refill your hand (read: you have no beef) and you get to cascade, how much would it suck to hit Hypergenesis here with nothing to drop in play?

[MSC]

For Fighting other Combo: How about some Pyrostatic Pillars? You don't want to play more than 2-4 Spells the whole Game, while they want to play around 10.
You can Hard-Cast it and Cascade into it. Seems fair to me.

[Alfred]

Decree of Silence seems awesome to me. Why wouldn't it be played mainboard?

[Moczoc]

I'm developing this deck too with a friend. Our so far final decklist is very simple compact and strong.

Fatties
4 Simic Sky Swallower
4 Empyrial Archangel
2 Akroma, Angel of Fury
4 Inkwell Leviathan
4 Progenitus

Other spells
2 Hypergenesis
4 Force of Will
12 "Cascade-spell-for-3"

Mana
4 Gemstone Mine
4 Forbidden Orchard
4 Tendo Ice Bridge
2 Pillar of the Paruns
2 City of Brass
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Elvish Spirit Guide

SB
4 Firespout <- against Meddling Mage and fast aggro
4 Krosan Grip <- against Counterbalance and Chalice
4 Platinum Angel <- against fast aggro and some combo decks
3 City of Solitude <- against counters



Some things we realized:

- every creature has to be immune to Stp or you will lose tons of games
- Pillar of Paruns is nice, but only 2 or 3 can be included because of the SB cards
- Violent Outburst is fun because it is an instant, and Ardent Plea gives Exalted to make the kill faster sometimes
- Forbidden Orchard gives targets for Demonic Dread
- Show and Tell is bad because you can only put 1 beater into play which often is too less
- Play many many big creatures to put the maximum into play with Hypergenesis

[gustha]

Add this: red akroma is pure evil...nice try the intuition of forbidden orchard. Is there room for misdirection to protect the combo better?

[Master Shake]

@MSC - The problem with Pillar is that they only generally play 8 spells that will deal them damage before they tendrils you out. If you hit two it just pressures them to find Echoing Truth. It also can destroy your ability to win the game.

@Alfred - Decree of Silence doesn't attack for damage, kind of a big deal.

@Gustha 1. Ancestral Visions ruins the ability to combo, that was covered all ready. There are a lot of ways to go with the creature suite in the deck

@Moczoc - I'm pretty sure that Platinum Angel just dies to some burn spell or some removal that was left in if you're playing against fast aggro. I don't think I'd play Pillar of the Paruns over City of Brass 3 and 4.

I gave a lot of consideration to running Red Akroma myself but I was just a lot happier with the Sundering Titans that are in my deck right now. I thought about going Swords-proof I may still make the switch to Red Akroma.

I gave some thought to a Firespout like slot last night and I'm pretty sure that if you're going to play it that it should be Volcanic Fallout if you intend to hit a meddling mage with it. Firespout will hit things against Zoo, but I don't think that zoo is a problem.

Moczoc didn't like Show and Tell but I like that it gets around Chalice at 0, doesn't require a target and allows me to go off even when I've spent my Hypergenesis (which in my playtesting I've gone through all three of them several times) It doesn't put everything into play but it should generally put enough into play.

I don't think that I'd play more than 2 Archangels becuase zoo decks can take them down, and if that is what I'm leaning on, I'm out.

[Hunding Gjornersen]

I don't understand why no one's considering Eureka. It dodges Chalice @ 0, CounterTop, Meddling Mage, and Stifle. It also doesn't require a target and is forgiving if somehow you draw both Hypergenesis'. One extra mana seems like a small price to pay for all that. You also get to drop all your fatties. This matters since your opponent might be able to drop one bomb, like Tombstalker, Mystic Enforcer, or maybe even a Progenitus, but it's much less likely they'll have a hand-full of busted expensive permanents.

What happens if this deck works and gets popular? What do you do about the mirror match?

[ykpon]

Hunding Gjornersen, S&T is still a better option for dodging chalice, mage and balance. even one mana is a lot for this deck and the ability to pitch for FoW and Misdirection is nice too. and ok, Eureka costs $100+ a set beeing nearly absolutely unplayable

in my opinion if u want to build a deck around Eureka u shouldn't play cascade+Hypergenesis at all. something with Intuitions and perhaps Brainstorm+Ponder+fetchlands seems better with it. also it allows u playing Nicol Bolas, Planeswalker, which is obviously bad for a cascade deck.

and about Intuition: how about using it in a cascade deck? it's blue and it tutors for everything we need. on the other hand it slows us down at the first sight. but mb it can give us that time back allowing any fast combo kill? though no idea yet what kind of combo it should be. no doubt, something including cards, which aren't bad by themselves. any thoughts?

[Forbiddian]

I can't think of any, but you have to be able to make the combo fatal the turn you resolve your cascade or at most one turn after.

It seems this deck is simply slower than turn 2 dreadnought, let alone actual combo decks.



Crap, Dream Halls is still banned. What a crock of shit.

[Barook]

I can't think of any, but you have to be able to make the combo fatal the turn you resolve your cascade or at most one turn after.

It seems this deck is simply slower than turn 2 dreadnought, let alone actual combo decks.

Maybe some combination of Hellkite Overlord, Borgardan Hellkite and Clone?

[freakish777]

I can't think of any, but you have to be able to make the combo fatal the turn you resolve your cascade or at most one turn after.

See my first post for killing on the spot (PandeBurst combo works, it just requires specific cards which is bad, you could try Idyllic tutor, but that's still bad), or trying to ensure you don't lose afterwards (DoS/Dovescape, Plats + Nullstone Gargoyle, etc).

Other possibilities:

Dual Nature + Bogardan Hellkites + Kokushos + Hellkite Overlords?

Karrthus, Tyrant of Jund + Dragon Tyrant?


Yet more ideas (probably not good): Shriekmaw/Aethersnipe gives you removal that doesn't get cascaded, and deals with things your opponent might drop that you don't want in play off your Hypergenesis.




EDIT:

Guile + Dovescape anyone???

Also Petradon + Nullstone Gargoyle/Kira Great Glass Spinner.

[Master Shake]

I don't understand how you can want to run a two card combo in a deck with zero tutor and draw. Using Idyllic Tutor and/or Intuition there very likely is a way to build this deck in a way that can support a two card combo but you're really not presenting a list where it seems viable.

Without Tutor and chaff cards: Anything you put into play has to be able to do the job by itself or with a little bit of help from any other card in the deck that you would put into play.