[NCD] Lorescale Coatl

[FoolofaTook]

I don't see this as a straight add-on in Threshold. I think it will create other evolutions in the deck and at the end of them we will no longer have Threshold but something that is closer to the NLU that Nassif and others have been modifying.

Threshold as a concept is dead at this point. No cards in the new deck will actually have Threshold, only goyf will care about the graveyard (likely) and it will care about both graveyards equally.

Anybody who tries to play Threshold, as it currently exists, is likely to find themselves playing a tier 2 deck in a hurry. Lorescale Coatl adds into the creature mix alongside Tarmogoyf but he's going to be the better beater in the mirror and playing UG aggro-control competitively without him is going to be next to impossible.

[Forbiddian]

I don't see this as a straight add-on in Threshold. I think it will create other evolutions in the deck and at the end of them we will no longer have Threshold but something that is closer to the NLU that Nassif and others have been modifying.

Threshold as a concept is dead at this point. No cards in the new deck will actually have Threshold, only goyf will care about the graveyard (likely) and it will care about both graveyards equally.

Anybody who tries to play Threshold, as it currently exists, is likely to find themselves playing a tier 2 deck in a hurry. Lorescale Coatl adds into the creature mix alongside Tarmogoyf but he's going to be the better beater in the mirror and playing UG aggro-control competitively without him is going to be next to impossible.

That's what everyone's saying. There's just no established name for the deck.

Nassif Threshold <--- that's the Thresh everyone's talking about, and maybe a bit of the "old threshold" that will quickly evolve to this.
NLU
Baseruption
Probasco Thresh


We're talking about the same deck, there's just no established name. Sorry for any confusion.


Maybe Snakes on a Plain for UGw version.

[grahf]

Coatl excites me greatly because I am too poor to buy goyfs, so instead I will use him and Dryads to make budget-Gro.

[Barsoom]

Coatl excites me greatly because I am too poor to buy goyfs, so instead I will use him and Dryads to make budget-Gro.

This is exactly what i'll do too; if you want to share the decklist you have in mind will be nice, i'll PM you my list.

[Volt]

Coatl excites me greatly because I am too poor to buy goyfs, so instead I will use him and Dryads to make budget-Gro.

I suspect a lot of people will be doing this.

[KrzyMoose]

I think the format is going to come down to who got their Snake guy out first.

This card just made Sower of Temptation so much better.

[Volt]

Maybe Snakes on a Plain for UGw version.

I like it.

[Peter_Rotten]

I'll stand by my "the card is decent" argument until tournies prove otherwise. Just for fun, I'd like you to play a game with me. Tell me which of the following posts are about Coat-tail and which are about AdNaseum when it was spoiled:

This card is stupid and makes me dislike the format even more.

Even without further testing against blue/black decks the card's power level is way too high for Legacy. I'm not whining btw, just stating how I see it.

The card truly is insane, I got myself 4 already for €10,- total, that's about $14/$15,- ^^

Here's hoping for a pre-release banning for all formats besides vintage, where it will probably be restricted.

This card makes me so incredibly happy in my pants.

1) Its broken because there will be 4 in every deck, combo or not.

2) I saw this card litteraly the first thing I said was "take 10, draw 30, manabond GO"

3) Its insane we all know that.

What would be Wizards reason for printing this anyways? There can be arguably no good to come out of it. Are they trying to mess with the eternal formats?

GG Legacy.

It'd replace a ton of mediocre threats in Vintage if it isn't restricted, it's rather difficult to Mana Drain thru' Force of Will and Duress, which makes it similar to Gifts Ungiven combo set ups.

IMO it's busted, how much so I have no idea...

And here are some classic "sky-is-falling" about AdNaseum:

The argument that this is "just another Iggy" is ridiculous, on multiple levels. First, Ad Nauseum isn't a little bit better, it's a 1-card combo. Resolve me and I win. It's 2 mana cheaper than Belcher, and doesn't require Land Grant. It's probably worse than Flash Hulk, but it only requires one card.


Hand: Land, Dark Ritual, Dark Ritual (or any two Petal or Cabal) + Ad Nauseum = win turn 1.

This card is ridiculous. I really can't believe it's really as spoiled. If so, Legacy is going to become play Storm or go home very quickly.

IBA: With respect, I think that this is better than Hulk Flash for these reasons.

1.1 card combo
2.It's one more card for Control and Aggrocontrol decks that must be dealt with
3.It's Black, making it workable from the best rituals in the game
4.It makes TES, FT, and SI THE best decks in Legacy
5.There is nothing that is more powerful than it in the format

That's how I see it.

Hell - even these guys seemed worried about the Coat-tail

[C.P.]

Few things after testing:

It is a good creature, and better than classic threshold beaters, like Enforecer, Dragon, Drake, and co. However, modern build of CB/Top does not run pure beater other than goyf, and 3cc slot is usually taken by Clique or other utility guys. In other words, they are in different niche.

It is pretty strong creature, but it is worse than Tarmogoyf, and can only be Goyf 5-8 in essence. Is there a archetype that can use 8 goyfs and do well? There may be, but it seems worse than all-rounders like NLU. Also, this card doesn't help Thresh/NLU's worst matchup, attrition control decks.

It is a help for the best deck in the format which is bit necessary, but it is not the end of Legacy. Stop whining, more playing.

EDIT: I felt I need to elaborate more. First, My statement about Goyf 5-8 is just Pure Beater 5-8. It is not, by any means, better than Goyf. Also, Thresh/NLU decks seems to be more in need of good utility creatures than efficient beaters, because Goyfs are just too good in that department.

[Forbiddian]

I did point out that all the predictions about Ad Nauseum were true. Ad Nauseum is a big step up for combo. I didn't predict CB/Top getting run everwhere, though.


Counterbalance/Top was a massive mitigating factor, which is now played in virtually every deck (I guess Ad Nauseum forced people to discover it or at least galvanized the masses).

I proposed a deck with 4 Meddling Mage, 3 Daze, 4 Force of Will, and Wasteland maindeck and 4 boarded Thorn of Amethyst and a number of TES players said that they go 50-50 against more hate and that I should maybe ramp it up.

I think without CB/Top running around 20% of the decks, we'd definitely be living in combo winter. Ask in the TES thread or the ANT thread, they sport a positive matchup against every deck except decks with CB/Top, Daze, and Force of Will.

Ok, obviously Legacy will continue to be played after Coatl wrecks up a bunch of tier 1/tier 2 decks. Some people will stick around.

I do think that Legacy is much more boring after Ad Nauseum than it was before. Counterbalance/Top mirrors are not interesting for me (neither are they for any pros either). I'm sick of decks starting 4 Goyf, 4 CB, 4 Top, 4 BS, 2 Ponder, 4 Force, 3 Daze, which didn't really happen as much before Ad Nauseum.

Now add to that 4 Coatl and fast forward a month from now.



But for like the tenth time, I pose this question: What's currently the best deck in the format?

Name a deck that can beat Nassif Thresh in its current form. Now name a deck that could beat Nassif Thresh without relying on outsizing it by the endgame.

[ansset]

Ok, obviously Legacy will continue to be played after Coatl wrecks up a bunch of tier 1/tier 2 decks. Some people will stick around.

I do think that Legacy is much more boring after Ad Nauseum than it was before. Counterbalance/Top mirrors are not interesting for me (neither are they for any pros either). I'm sick of decks starting 4 Goyf, 4 CB, 4 Top, 4 BS, 2 Ponder, 4 Force, 3 Daze, which didn't really happen as much before Ad Nauseum.

Now add to that 4 Coatl and fast forward a month from now.



But for like the tenth time, I pose this question: What's currently the best deck in the format?

Name a deck that can beat Nassif Thresh in its current form. Now name a deck that could beat Nassif Thresh without relying on outsizing it by the endgame.

Dragon Stompy could beat Nassif Thresh. It didn't in the Top 8 of the GP, but one match does not a matchup define.

Team America could beat Nassif Thresh.

A number of less-competitive decks could probably do decently, but those are the two I thought of off the top of my head.

I'm unclear on what you mean by "outsizing it by the endgame". Clarify please?

edit: Obviously Thresh is the best deck in the format, but I'm 60/40 on that being a rhetoric question.

[mujadaddy]

Name a deck that can beat Nassif Thresh in its current form. Now name a deck that could beat Nassif Thresh without relying on outsizing it by the endgame.

What does "outsizing it" mean?

Plenty of decks can beat Nassif Thresh -- it's surviving to the final table that hangs them up.

[diffy]

Ok, obviously Legacy will continue to be played after Coatl wrecks up a bunch of tier 1/tier 2 decks. Some people will stick around.

About that: (straight copy/paste of an Adept Lounge post because I'm too lazy to rephrase this at 02:30am)
I think that it is indeed a solid card but the 'Dryad syndrome' balances it out: Threshold (talkin' Counter-Top here) has already so many mediocre to outright bad topdecks that you don't really want any more. Furthermore, Coatl, just like Dryad, is at its best when you have a cantrip-heavy draw. However, those draws tend to win just fine already (due to superior card selection giving you all the right tools at the perfect time and all that blahbla) meaning that at its best, Lorescale Coatl is winmore. At its worst (i.e. as a topdeck), Coatl is a mediocre beater due to its lack of evasion and/or utility and due to not immediately having an impact on the board, making it inferior to the other competitors for its slots (Rhox War Monk, Trinket Mage, Trygon Predator etc.).
Especially if you're playing a white-splashed list, you're going to have a hard time justifying this over Jenara Asunder of War which itself is far from an auto-include: both grow similarly quickly (remember: cantrip- and Top shenanigans do also cost you mana and tempo) with Jenara being the way better Topdeck and having evasion compared to Coatl's 'omg I came'-ness with Brainstorm.
I won't mention how amazing Coatl is with Sensei's Divining Top because if you have one of those you're already that much ahead that it doesn't really matter which one of the competitors for Coatl's slots you just drew/played.
Just ask yourself: would you play a (slightly?) better Quirion Dryad in Threshold?

Conclusion: Hype Qasali Pridemage, for it is the actually good card in the set.

Counterbalance/Top was a massive mitigating factor, which is now played in virtually every deck (I guess Ad Nauseum forced people to discover it or at least galvanized the masses).

Actually I didn't. Ad Nauseam (or any combo deck) was never played in sufficiently large numbers that players had to metagame against it. People were 'forced' to discover Counterbalance because it's friggin' broken and better than any other strategy in the format. That simple.

But for like the tenth time, I pose this question: What's currently the best deck in the format?

Something with CounterTop, Force of Will and Tarmogoyf. The other 30 or so cards are marginal.

Name a deck that can beat Nassif Thresh in its current form. Now name a deck that could beat Nassif Thresh without relying on outsizing it by the endgame.

Ichorid. Consistently, even on its worst days.

[Malchar]

I hope that they don't ban brainstorm, which seems like the most likely card to get the axe. I don't really think that they will ban anything though. For a long time, I was an avid goblins player, and I've recently seen the massive downfall of that deck. It has a pretty good match against NLU but it hasn't gotten any new cards lately. What I hope to see is a variety of other new cards (in addition to Coatl) that power up other decks. Especially goblins because it could beat NLU.

[undone]

I hope that they don't ban brainstorm, which seems like the most likely card to get the axe. I don't really think that they will ban anything though. For a long time, I was an avid goblins player, and I've recently seen the massive downfall of that deck. It has a pretty good match against NLU but it hasn't gotten any new cards lately. What I hope to see is a variety of other new cards (in addition to Coatl) that power up other decks. Especially goblins because it could beat NLU.

They arent banning brainstorm, it doesnt fit any qualifications for banning in this format.

On topic decks that are 50/50 with nassif NLU include

tempo thresh
Team america
GB/ GBw aggro with vendicate and potentialy pulse

Decks which are 60/40 or better

Ichorid
lands
Landstill with humility + deed
Dragon stompy

People over rate this matchup because a better player was playing the matchup. If he was playing tempo thresh he still would have won, if he was playing any deck with 8+ cantrips he would have won. Its the way it is.

[Aggro_zombies]

About that: (straight copy/paste of an Adept Lounge post because I'm too lazy to rephrase this at 02:30am)
I think that it is indeed a solid card but the 'Dryad syndrome' balances it out: Threshold (talkin' Counter-Top here) has already so many mediocre to outright bad topdecks that you don't really want any more. Furthermore, Coatl, just like Dryad, is at its best when you have a cantrip-heavy draw. However, those draws tend to win just fine already (due to superior card selection giving you all the right tools at the perfect time and all that blahbla) meaning that at its best, Lorescale Coatl is winmore. At its worst (i.e. as a topdeck), Coatl is a mediocre beater due to its lack of evasion and/or utility and due to not immediately having an impact on the board, making it inferior to the other competitors for its slots (Rhox War Monk, Trinket Mage, Trygon Predator etc.).
Especially if you're playing a white-splashed list, you're going to have a hard time justifying this over Jenara Asunder of War which itself is far from an auto-include: both grow similarly quickly (remember: cantrip- and Top shenanigans do also cost you mana and tempo) with Jenara being the way better Topdeck and having evasion compared to Coatl's 'omg I came'-ness with Brainstorm.
I won't mention how amazing Coatl is with Sensei's Divining Top because if you have one of those you're already that much ahead that it doesn't really matter which one of the competitors for Coatl's slots you just drew/played.
Just ask yourself: would you play a (slightly?) better Quirion Dryad in Threshold?

Conclusion: Hype Qasali Pridemage, for it is the actually good card in the set.

I concur.

Coatl can break Goyf-on-Goyf combat, but it requires investment of time and mana to do so - a total of probably four mana over two turns, using cards that are easily countered by Counterbalance. Basically, if we assume a nightmare scenario of a format of straight NLU mirror matches, the situation will be such that you have to stick a CB first to force through your draw spells if Coatl is to get big enough to be relevant. Even then, you're expending multiple cards on one guy at best (turn two off of Noble Hierarch, let's say).

Coatl is probably best when paired with Life from the Loam, because then it's not usually a lame topdeck - you can dredge Loam and start cycling to grow it at any time. It grows less explosively, but has a much more consistent rate of growth: about two counters per turn assuming two to three cycling lands. I would rather trade in "ZOMG 5/5 AND BRAINSTORM RAWR I'M SO GOOD AT THIS GAME" for "I can make my Coatl large over several turns no matter when I draw it, and without having to pack my deck full of cantrips and without being on a win-more draw", but that's just me.

Then again, if you have the Loam engine going, there's a lot more powerful cards you could be winning with: Worm Harvest, Seismic Assault, even Countryside Crusher. That last of which, by the way, has bigger base stats, fixes your draws, grows off your engine, and has a home in a deck that consistently gets top 8.

Coatl needs to be built around, it doesn't just fall into a current deck and rape face. It's really rather unimpressive once you stop having a stroke and actually look at what it does.

[xsockmonkeyx]

it doesn't just fall into a current deck and rape face.

Yes it does.

[Aggro_zombies]

Yes it does.

"Yes it does" what? Fall into a current deck, or actually be ridiculous in that deck? The former is true to an extent, but the latter most certainly isn't. NLU doesn't really need this guy, and it's awkward in normal Threshold - not to mention the fact that it has no evasion, so you're still sitting around twiddling your thumbs until it grows big enough to eat Tarmogoyfs.

Let's face it: Coatl followed immediately by a Brainstorm, while ridiculous, is not a common play. Activating Top to make it grow effectively sets you back a turn every time you do it - I'd be more than happy to have my opponent blow mana and draw steps dicking around with Top instead of actually winning. There's also the fact that if you're chaining a lot of cantrips like what you'd need to do with Coatl, you're probably winning already. Actually winning at that point is basically an academic exercise.

Stop shitting yourself with knee-jerk "OMG HUGE GUY FOR LITTLE MANA" reactions and actually look at the card. It's a 2/2 for three mana that requires you to play spells to make it decent, and requires you to pack your deck with lots of these spells at that. Incidentally, these spells are of the sort that would allow you to find and win with, say, Tombstalker, which probably wouldn't have to burn through an army of chump blockers to Go The Distance (and he would cost less too!).

[xsockmonkeyx]

"Yes it does" what? Fall into a current deck, or actually be ridiculous in that deck?

Yes.

[memnarch]

Well he certainly is good with two tops out, but that isn't going to happen much. I think you guys are hyping this. Is it really better then the 3/3 angel? That starts out bigger and gets bigger quickly most of the time I would assume. The evasion lets it fly over goyf and start hitting immediately.