[OLD] UGw Threshold

[Captain Hammer]

Another thing I love about the new list is that it has a fantastic curve for Counterbalance+Top...

0cc - 20 Cards
4 Flooded Strand
2 Windswept Heath
2 Polluted Delta
1 Forest
1 Plains
2 Island
2 Tundra
3 Tropical Island
3 Wasteland

1cc - 17 Cards
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
2 Divert
3 Sensei's Divining Top

2cc - 12 Cards
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Daze
4 Counterbalance

3cc - 5 Cards
3 Knight of the Reliquary
2 Trygon Predator

4cc - 2 Cards
2 Mystic Enforcer

5cc - 4 Cards
4 Force of Will

Omega,

Wasteland isn't there as a trick. It's there because...

a.) The curve of the deck is so much higher these days than it used to be.

CB+Top eat up a lot of mana.
KOR, Trygon Predator and Mystic Enforcer eat up a lot of mana
Playing around Daze eats up a lot of mana.
If you replaced Divert with O. Ring like you suggest, the eats up more mana too.

b.) The early threshold builds ran 14-16 cantrips along with 4 Werebear to support a land count of 17-18. Some builds ran roughly twice the number of cantrips we currently run. (Just take a look at the lists in the OP if you don't believe me). Even an year ago, the builds usually ran 12 cantrips or so. But since making room for CB+Top, the deck has had to cut out a lot of it's older cantrips, but has never upped it's manacount to make up for this. The current builds run 8-10 cantrips, no Werebears, and a much higher curve to boot.

c.) More and more decks blow up your lands these days (Sinkhole, Stifle and Wasteland are more popular than ever before).

d.) Wasteland infact is useful against Factories, Scrying Sheets, Mutavaults, Cabal Coffers, Ancient Tomb, Academy Ruins, or just a random dual.

By playing Wasteland, you deal with all four of the above problems. And on the very rare occasion that you do draw more lands than you needed, Wasteland can usually find a useful target that hurts your opponent's game plan.

As for Divert, it counters FoW, StP, Snuff Out, Counterspell, Smother, Burn, Edict and all sorts of other randomness. When you divert a removal spell to an opponent's own creature, you buy a metric ton of tempo for just one mana. And the list of randomness is pretty big. For example, if you have a Top in play, Divert can counter Stifle by diverting the card to Top. If instead, you have a Counterbalance in play but know that your top card isn't Stifle, I think you might be able to Divert Stifle onto Counterbalance isntead. Regardless, I found Divert to be really solid esp since all our threats are must counter or must kill cards for your opponents. You can play O. Ring or Spell Snare if you want, but I've been very happy with Divert.

I think if you try the list, you would come to the same conclusion as bowvamp.

[_erbs_]

I was running a similar build but im still in the process of tweaking my deck. I was running 19 lands 3 basic lands, 3 wastelands and 6 fetch lands, with 4 stifles & 2 phyrexian dreadnought.

I've used 3 KoR in that build zero mongoose and yes his an awesome guy normally when he comes down his 4/4, i was able to have 2 9/9 KoR in play.

I removed mongoose but now im back with them, and lower the KoR count to 2 instead of 3, yes KoR is awesome but mongoose is shroud and eventhough his just 3/3 the shroud factor will win you games compared to a 9/9 that can be snuffed out or other creature kill cards.

I haven't tried KoR + wasteland only, but KoR + wasteland + stifle is good to some extent. What captain hammer posted above wasting several key lands could give you a big tempo boost.

But i encounter abit of problem there thats why i switched my deck to zero wasteland down to 18 lands from 19, back in 3 mongoose -1 kor. With only 6cantrips 4 stifle and 3 wasteland, i couldn't apply the pressure good enough or shall i say when i need them there not there and against mono colored decks that has few non basic lands the tempo delay tactic is nullified.

Sometimes i would get them (tempo cards stifles and wastelands) you have no use for them. Because it wouldn't hurt your opponent that much. I still wouldn't abandon the idea cause its really awesome in sometimes in where you could wasteland and stilfe your opponents lands and giving you the time to lock the game via counter top especially decks which has a tight mana curve, then when KoR or tarmo hits comes down its almost autopilot.

Here is the deck i was running then after several testing ive tweaked it again.

Version 1.0
Lands
4 tropical island
3 tundra
3 windswept heath
3 flooded strand
2 island
1 plains
3 wasteland
19

Creatures
4 tarmogyf
2 phyrexian dreadnought
3 knight or the reliquary
9

Spells
4 swords to plowshares
2 oblivion ring
4 force of will
3 daze
2 spell snare
3 counterbalance
1 engineered explosives
19

Draw
3 brainstorm
3 ponder
3 sensei's divinning top
4 stifle
13

Version 2.0
Lands
4 tropical island
3 tundra
3 windswept heath
4 flooded strand
2 island
1 forest
1 plains
18

Creatures
4 tarmogyf
2 phyrexian dreadnought
3 nimble mongoose
2 knight or the reliquary
11

Spells
4 swords to plowshares
2 oblivion ring
4 force of will
3 daze
2 spell snare
3 counterbalance
18

Draw
3 brainstorm
3 ponder
3 sensei's divinning top
4 stifle
13

I still haven't test version 2 so i couldn't give any inputs. But based on my testing on my deck version 1.0, almost all my creatures could be killed by anti creature cards it doesn't matter wheather they are 12/12 or 8/8, thats where i miss the mongoose. i downed the number of KoR to 2 cause im guessing he would become less effective since i droped my wasteland i'll only be depending on my 7 fetch to pump him up, but uf his still performs i would up his count to 3.

Hoping to hear comments from all

thanks

[Captain Hammer]

almost all my creatures could be killed by anti creature cards it doesn't matter wheather they are 12/12 or 8/8, thats where i miss the mongoose.

Have you considered Divert? It protects your threats from both counterspells and removal. Your opponent would probably much rather use their removal to kill your big dudes rather than to kill a 3/3 anyways, so it's not like their StP's and Snuff Outs won't find a target just because you're playing some Mongoose.

I'm not a big fan of Dreadnought + Stifle in this deck. It just seems too random and inconsistent. Mystic Enforcer is a perfectly good finisher, is harder to kill, deals with Tombstalkers, Sea Drakes and Exalted Angels, and it doesn't require a two card combo to get into play.

I also don't like the low land count with the high curve and very low number of cantrips. EE, O. Ring, Top + CB and KoR are all fairly mana intensive. And you're only playing 18 lands + 3 Brainstorm + 3 Ponder. So I would honestly up the land count and put the wastelands back into the deck.

I'm not a big fan of EE either, but otherwise, your list looks really very good. I like it.

[Ch@os]

You guys srsly take out mungo and want to protect your CC'2-3 Critter with "Divert"?

[Captain Hammer]

No, Divert isn't replacing Mongoose.

Mongoose got replaced by bigger meaner threats that can actually end games by themselves and don't die to a Factory or Goyf.

Divert is there precisely because it does a lot more than just bounce back removal, (it bounces back Sinkholes and counters FoW and Counterspell and a bunch of other stuff for just one mana). And it's not replacing a threat, it's in the slot usually given to stuff like Spell Snare or Stifle.

But whatever, I'm going to bed.

[Terminator1k]

Thank you. You can always proxy them up to test them.

That's what I did till my ebay auction winnings finally arrived.

Yeah, I really like Wasteland in the deck. Mystic Enforcer always was one of my favorite beaters. But the 4cc dude never worked perfectly with a land count of 17-18.

Actually, a lot of the recent additions to the deck, Top + CB combo (esp Top), Oblivion Ring, Trygon Predator and the lower cantrip count did not function optimally with such a low land count. Wasteland lets you play a higher land count, and best of all, serves a function on the rare occasion that you get mana flooded as well.

I am especially interested in hearing your and PowrDrgn's comments upon trying out the build I posted above.

Frankly I think both you guys will be very pleased with pretty much all of the changes.

I only ask because you guys seem a lot more willing to actually try new cards rather than jumping to assumptions about them. and generally more openminded to things like dropping Mongoose, playing more powerful higher cc threats, and playing a higher land count to support these threats (that I am convinced are step forward that this deck needs to take).

Ok, I have some points on your build and I'm actually going to try them under my build and I'll let you know. On these points:

- Divert: The card is ok, the effect is ok...but I think we are running into the win-more department. The deck seems quite situational some times, in the fact that you must have the divert on hand. I think that the point you're trying to get with divert is almost covered on CB+Top, i.e. disrupting your opp spells.

- KOR: I'll give a chance to this guy as additional win condition. Synergies with fetchs, wastelands and let you go out from some B2B locks. With this in mind, I'll get rid of ponders, enable the 20land count, and design the manabase to have enough colors without running into dual land vulnerability (eight duals or more). I only wish we could get Life from the Loam in here to get the "terravore" effect. Only one question: Isn't he too much vulnerable to Tormod's Crypt? Perhaps my fear on this is related to my next point.

- Mystic Enforcer: I can see a pair on your build, because the higher cantrip count, but as you use the KOR (at least 5/5 with some lands on graveyard) I think they should move out from your deck. Can you see the deck withouth them? Another reason to get rid of him: graveyard dependancy (goyf, KOR, Mystic...)

- RWM: If we use KOR,we got rid of him? Isn't he good enough to be MD? Did you try to squeeze him like this: 4xGoyf, 2xTrygon,2xRWM,2xKOR.

- Dreadnought: I had a BGr build that featured one of these. When you move on the Dreadstill territory, you better be playing dreadstill or at least some trinket mage to get the guy. Two is not ok, nor the 4xstifle on the build. I was SB him all the time. No way for him here, sorry.

I'll try to get some KOR for my testing, or even try to proxy them and see. As soon as I have results, I'll let you know.

[Captain Hammer]

Ok, I have some points on your build and I'm actually going to try them under my build and I'll let you know. On these points:

- Divert: The card is ok, the effect is ok...but I think we are running into the win-more department. The deck seems quite situational some times, in the fact that you must have the divert on hand. I think that the point you're trying to get with divert is almost covered on CB+Top, i.e. disrupting your opp spells.

- KOR: I'll give a chance to this guy as additional win condition. Synergies with fetchs, wastelands and let you go out from some B2B locks. With this in mind, I'll get rid of ponders, enable the 20land count, and design the manabase to have enough colors without running into dual land vulnerability (eight duals or more). I only wish we could get Life from the Loam in here to get the "terravore" effect. Only one question: Isn't he too much vulnerable to Tormod's Crypt? Perhaps my fear on this is related to my next point.

- Mystic Enforcer: I can see a pair on your build, because the higher cantrip count, but as you use the KOR (at least 5/5 with some lands on graveyard) I think they should move out from your deck. Can you see the deck withouth them? Another reason to get rid of him: graveyard dependancy (goyf, KOR, Mystic...)

- RWM: If we use KOR,we got rid of him? Isn't he good enough to be MD? Did you try to squeeze him like this: 4xGoyf, 2xTrygon,2xRWM,2xKOR.

- Dreadnought: I had a BGr build that featured one of these. When you move on the Dreadstill territory, you better be playing dreadstill or at least some trinket mage to get the guy. Two is not ok, nor the 4xstifle on the build. I was SB him all the time. No way for him here, sorry.

I'll try to get some KOR for my testing, or even try to proxy them and see. As soon as I have results, I'll let you know.

Yes, let me know what you think. I would love to get your feedback.

As for your questions...

I like Divert. It's really never been a dead card and was imo useful more often than Spell Snare was but at the same cost. That said, Divert isn't there specifically to protect your threats or anything. It's just a neat card but the deck works fine without it. If you don't want to play the card, that's totally cool. You can play Spell Snare or Oblivion Ring or Stifle or whatever card you're more comfortable with and the deck will function well regardless.

KoR is a lot less vulnerable to Crypt than Mongoose, Enforcer or even Goyf to some degree. If you get Crypted, it's not a big deal. You use KoR's ability to put two cards into your yard in just one turn. You'll probably fetch another land at sometime. So you lose one turn but still get to swing with a 5/5 that very next turn. No big deal. It's all your other threats that get hurt by Crypt. KoR on the otherhand is back to being a 5/5 within just one turn.

You sound like you want to make the deck less reliant on the yard, and you really seem to want to squeeze in Rhox War Monk.

So how about this, take my build and go...
-1 KoR
-1 Mystic Enforcer
+2 RWM

You get your wish. The deck cares even less about your yard and you got to play RWM like you wanted.

That said, I'm not that impressed with RWM. It helps versus aggro. But you already play so many big dudes, that I never really feel like I need RWM's help to beat aggro. Other than versus aggro RWM was a terribly slow card. But I guess it's up to you.

[kikkofrio]

Yes, let me know what you think. I would love to get your feedback.

As for your questions...

I like Divert. It's really never been a dead card and was imo useful more often than Spell Snare was but at the same cost. That said, Divert isn't there specifically to protect your threats or anything. It's just a neat card but the deck works fine without it. If you don't want to play the card, that's totally cool. You can play Spell Snare or Oblivion Ring or Stifle or whatever card you're more comfortable with and the deck will function well regardless.

KoR is a lot less vulnerable to Crypt than Mongoose, Enforcer or even Goyf to some degree. If you get Crypted, it's not a big deal. You use KoR's ability to put two cards into your yard in just one turn. You'll probably fetch another land at sometime. So you lose one turn but still get to swing with a 5/5 that very next turn. No big deal. It's all your other threats that get hurt by Crypt. KoR on the otherhand is back to being a 5/5 within just one turn.

You sound like you want to make the deck less reliant on the yard, and you really seem to want to squeeze in Rhox War Monk.

So how about this, take my build and go...
-1 KoR
-1 Mystic Enforcer
+2 RWM

You get your wish. The deck cares even less about your yard and you got to play RWM like you wanted.

That said, I'm not that impressed with RWM. It helps versus aggro. But you already play so many big dudes, that I never really feel like I need RWM's help to beat aggro. Other than versus aggro RWM was a terribly slow card. But I guess it's up to you.

if u play waste...why don't u play stifle?

Something like this:

// Lands
3 [R] Tropical Island
2 [R] Tundra
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
2 [MM] Island (1)
2 [ON] Windswept Heath
1 [P3] Forest (2)
1 [7E] Plains (1)
2 [ON] Polluted Delta
3 [TE] Wasteland

// Creatures
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
2 [TSB] Mystic Enforcer
2 [DIS] Trygon Predator
2 [CFX] Knight of the Reliquary

// Spells
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [NE] Daze
4 [CST] Brainstorm
4 [CST] Swords to Plowshares
4 [LRW] Ponder
3 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
4 [CS] Counterbalance
3 [SC] Stifle

I'm trying to put Rhox here...but no more slot for it...

[Captain Hammer]

I like the build :)

I actually did play Stifle for a while. But there were a rare few matchups where it was useless. Which is why I tried other stuff too, and settled on Divert.

Yeah Stifle works very well in the deck. So there's nothing wrong with playing it.

[Smog]

That said, I'm not that impressed with RWM. It helps versus aggro. But you already play so many big dudes, that I never really feel like I need RWM's help to beat aggro. Other than versus aggro RWM was a terribly slow card. But I guess it's up to you.

Found out today after a full gauntlet that he is beast vs burn (obviously) but I know that dedicating slots to burn is pretty self defeating regardless.

I like RWM, but after some extended testing today (gobs, aggroloam, two storm combos, 2 landstill variants, the rock, muc, and natural order / progenitus) I see the following setup:

4 goyf
2 trygon
2 mystic enforcer
2-3 kor

as the most effective. Surprisingly, I haven't really missed mongoose... :(

[Jaiminho]

Found out today after a full gauntlet that he is beast vs burn (obviously) but I know that dedicating slots to burn is pretty self defeating regardless.

The deck without Monk is already a beast against Burn. With infinite BEBs, Daze, Force, STP, CB and a nice clock, there's no way you are losing a match without bad luck.

[Captain Hammer]

Thanks for trying it out Smog. My findings echo yours perfectly.

I've gone back to playing Stifle where Divert used to be and I'm loving it.

4 Flooded Strand
2 Windswept Heath
2 Polluted Delta
1 Forest
1 Plains
2 Island
2 Tundra
3 Tropical Island
3 Wasteland

4 Tarmogoyf
3 Knight of the Reliquary
2 Trygon Predator
2 Mystic Enforcer

4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
3 Stifle

4 Counterbalance
3 Sensei's Diving Top

Honestly, I can't make up my mind as to which I like more.

The versatility of Divert (I found it useful and downright broken in a lot of random matchups (Zoo, Burn, Sui Black etc) where Stifle would've been dead).

or

The synergy of Stifle (the many matchups where Stifle does come in handy against, it just really works very well with the rest of the deck, whether countering storm or blowing up fetchlands).

I guess it really depends on what you expect to face.

[Smog]

Got 61 one there Cpt Hammer. I've been testing dropping one trop for that creature setup versus dropping one KoR for that land setup. I think I like the former more, though my testing in this case has been fairly limited.

[Captain Hammer]

Oops, forgot to update my manabase. Yeah I like the former more too. Go ahead and cut the Trop. The manabase still works just fine off of 19 land. (I actually cut a Wasteland, but that had more with me needing the Wasteland for my Doran Sui deck than anything)

[Fossil4182]

Lands (17)
4 Windswept Heath
4 Flooded Strand
2 Tropical Islands
2 Tundra
1 Forest
1 Plains
3 Island

Creatures (10)
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Stoic Angel

Spells
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Counterbalance
3 Sensei's Diving Top
4 Swords to Plowshare
4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
2 Predict
2 Oblivion Ring
2 Back to Basics

SB
4 Blue Elemental Blast
4 Krosan Grip
4 Ghostly Prison
3 Meddling Mage

RD 1 vs Jank Snakes
G1: I get counter top on online turn two. He attempts to cast mana ramp cards like Reach and Explosive Vegetation which I'm able to counter by getting and Angel and Back to Basics in the top three for Counterbalance. He's only able to resolve one creature which I swords and I rode Goyf all the way to victory.
G2: (See Game One)

1-0 (2-0)

RD 2 vs Affinity
G1: I start off with land and Top and pass the turn. He drops and artifact land, Ornithopter and attempts to resolve a Drum. I dazed the drum not wanting to deal with that. I'm able to drop a Goyf which is a 3/4 thanks to Daze, a land and an artifact, but he drops an artifact land, gets a drum through and drops the Frog then passes. I topdeck in Swords, lay a land then pass. He resolves a Cranial Plating which I choose not to Force (I've played this deck before so I'm gambling he hasn't changed the deck). He equips the Ornithopter and swings which I let resolve, then he attempts to Fling it at me which I let through. (I'm at 5 life at this point). He passes the turn. Next turn I draw, lay a land, then resolve Back to Basics with him tapped out. He only as a drum out with the Frog which I swords on his upkeep. He can't generate any mana and doesn't see Enforcer or Frog so he looses to Goyf Beats.
G2: (Out 2 ORing 2 Daze In 4 Grip). He develops in a similar Fashion only this time he drops a Atog. I'm counting the number of artifacts he has and its just enough for Lethal damage (I mean it would be exactly lethal damage if he resolved Fling), he starts the sac process for Tog, but in response I Grip one of the artifacts away and was able to stave off death by two points of damage. I was able to stabilize the next turns by dropping two Goyfs and two geese and proceeding to win.

2-0 (4-0)

RD 3 vs RGW Zoo
*This was my most difficult matchup of the day
G1: He didn't see the opening hands he wanted and went to six on the draw keeping a hand with only two creatures neither of which was a one drop. He proceeded to Bolt me to the head turn one, then dropped a Watchwolf the following turn. I was able to get into control with seeing a Swords early and resolving CounterTop turn 4 with a Goyf on the table. I Dazed his Boggart Ram-Gang which could have been problematic and then proceeded to beat face with Goyf and rode Counterbalance all the way home.
G2: (Out 2 ORing 2 Daze In 4 Blue Elemental Blast)
He opens with a first turn Wildcat off of a G/R dual and my opening play was a Tundra pass. He drops the Plateau and attempts a Rancor which respond by casting StP on the Wildcat. He burns me to the face for good measure and passes. I drop a Goyf and pass the turn. He lays a land and passes the turn. The following turn Goyf is a 3/4 (Land Enchantment Instant) and I swing into him, he attempts a Char. I opt not to Daze and instead let the Goyf die and in the second main phase resolve Back to Basics with him tapped out. This play ends up being critical. He slumps back and says go. I Ponder, Fetch a basic Forest and then resolve Mongoose passing the turn. I use and Island to Brainstorm at the EoT and end up getting Threshold. He then topdecks into a Mountain which he is able to start unloading some burn to the dome, but only has a Chain lightning and a Lightning Blot and I ride the Goose to victory.

RD 4 vs Blood Funnel
*Yes, no one was expecting this and its what you might think: Blood Funnel plus Donate. Apparently this had just wrecked some decks earlier that didn't know how to handle it...whatever.
G1: He develops what looks like a B/U Landstill base all the while dropping P. Walkers and Shield Spheres... Anyway, I take my time and was able to revolve a Counterbalance with a Top in play. It got difficult because he dropped a Faire Conclave and attempted to resolve a Standstill. (I had nothing at this point because I only saw walkers and spheres and was waiting to see what the deck did [stupid on my part]) Anyway, I had to do some trickery with Top into Brainstorm putting a Daze on the library to counter Standstill, but after, I was able to resolve and Angel and cruz to Victory.
(Out 4 Daze, 2 ORing 1 B2B : In 3 Meddling Mage 4 Krosan Grips)
G2: We both engage in early counter wars over Counterbalance and I'm able to resolve it the second time. At this point, he has 5 mana, but I'm out of cards except for a Brainstorm. (I have zero creatures on the board at this point) He casts Blood Funnel which I attempt to blind counterbalance and reveal a StP. Then he attempts to Donate all be it without any other cards in hand by sacrificing one of his two creatures on the board. I Brainstorm seeing StP, Angel and...Back to Basics. I take the StP into hand, then put B2B on top :-) It gets countered and the following turn I StP his only creature leaving him with Blood Funnel on the table and no way to cast spells. I drop Angel and ride it to victory over the following turns as he's locked under Blood Funnel.

4-0 (8-0)

Out Rounds
Semi vs Zoo (2-1)
Finals Affinity (2-0)

Rather than retype the reports I'll note the games where similar though Zoo handed me the first game loss of the day and it was really close. It got to a position where I had board control and would have one the next turn unless he top decked burn... who ever thought Lightning Blot would be a good idea to print: Its kind of like this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NYyz8LXDCiI only not, but the feeling was there.

Anyway, since I haven't played in months I'll go for this:
Props
Jon (Zoo Player): Are matches are always Epic
Rob for stopping by and seeing everyone on V-Day and escaping the Wife
Affinity Player for making finals after just starting 3 months ago
AS for hosting the tournament
Blood Funnel Combo just dominating
Aggro Loam deck which I didn't see.

Drops:
Not playing for a few months and make stupid play mistakes

Afterwards:
I know there's been some discussion concerning Mongoose and the creature make up. I like the creature in the deck lists. However after reading the last five pages of the forums here I understand why the newer makes are just incredible. However, I would equate the creature selection, as with everything else, to your meta. At something like the Grand Prix or a much more competitive venue, the aforementioned creatures in this forum that are being suggested will serve you much better. However, in a meta that doesn't run as many "Decks to Beat" I think Goose is a much better choice. Its just "a incredible pain in the ass" to deal with. I also found Angel to be a great option for me. the Vigilance really helped out a lot of decks. The 3/4 body and the casting cost put her out of reach of most removal spells outside of StP and Snuff Out which was great. I was also pleased because it kept Zoo from sending everyone sideways and killing me. I would suggest that in metas that aren't primarily TopTeir that cards like the Goose and Angel be considered.

A couple of thoughts on the Match ups: Gaddock Teeg is great for meta's that have a disparity of deck types. Jank decks tend to run some ridiculous cards with higher mana costs and I found myself wanting something to combat that AKA Teeg. Plus, Teeg is a great choice as a SB card with some of the upper tier decks anyway. Additionally, Ghostly Prison was a waste of space. We had 15 people there and I was fearing getting matched up against some random aggro decks. Figured it would be good but alas, not so much. I've already talked about Mongoose and I liked the Angel a lot as well. Boggart Ram-Gang was fairly problematic. However, its been my experience that Zoo is a favorable matchup for UGw (or any variant for that fact) if you can get them to drop into TopDeck mode. I found that most Aggro decks (not Ichorid) tend to loose if you can bait them to over exhaust their hand and force them into drawing for threats as they don't have the ability to reload sort to speak. I boarded in BeB but those didn't necessarily help that much. So I'm going to go searching for cards to improve the Aggro match up.

[Smog]

Grats on your finish and thanks for the report.

[_erbs_]

Grats on your finish!
_____________________________________

With regards to wasteland vs colored mana..
Just a thought, yes its awesome come to think of it its never a dead card even against mono colored decks which uses (man lands, turbo lands, rishadans etc.) and paired with stilfe there are a great tempo boost which will give you time to setup.

But here is where wasteland doesn't fit (just for me) instead of wasting your opponents lands you'll have the option of casting an early counterbalance which for me is more potent over tempo bec. you can't apply continous pressure due to the lack of cards, if lets you have access to duress / thoughtseize running 3 waste 3-4 stifles and 4 duress / thoughseize will really give you tempo control.

Eventhough i won games with wasteland + stifle + kor or goyf or dreadnought currently im leaning towards zero wasteland for colored manas.

[PowrDragn]

The one thing that needs to be noted is that there may not be an optimum build right now. There are several good cards that are available to this deck. There are also a ton of decks that you might run into.

It's a matter of figuring out which build you're the most comfortable with. Then figure out how you plan to play against each of your expected matchups. That's all you can do.

There are have been several builds posted and everyone is having reasonable success with them.

[diffy]

I came in 4th in yesterday's Haßloch tournament with my newest UGw Threshold list. The same list also took 6th.
Report + explanation of some choices can be found here.

[godryk]

Congrats on the finish!

Just a quick question on your newest list: if you had faced Merfolk in any round, what would you have sided?