The French versions are totally different than the American versions of Eternal Garden. Most Garden builds in America run red for Burning Wish and generally neglect blue altogether. I have no idea what the French metagame is but it seems like Leyline of the Void is not commonplace over there. That is one of the main reasons for BWish, to get Reverent Silence for Leyline and Blood Moon or some kind of Flame Jab/Pyroclasm effect for Magus of the Moon. Same with Life From the Loam, after it gets Extirpated you can just Wish it back. I am starting to think 4x Crucible of Worlds might be the way to go though. I am really liking that card in the main but 4x just seems like to many. I also love Intuition in the deck and it may be going in my build in the place of Gamble but for now I prefer Gamble.
Smokestack is also an interesting choice. I never thought to play that in this deck, I always thought that between Wasteland and Ghost Quarter recursion it disabled your opponent's mana fast enough then clears to board with Tabernacle. EE and Academy Ruins would probably be worth playing blue alone though. The ability to recur Crucible and EE just sounds great.
The main reason for blue is clearly intuition which is the best tutor for loam decks (with burning wish). In my deck it's almost a universal tutor, since all my spells are at least in *3 (the exception is EE). The good thing also about my build is that you can win under a moon lock thanks to stax and crucible. You can get LftL extirpated or tormoded easily, but that's not really an issue because you play crucible, and you prefer to use crucible than LftL obviously. Honnestly, Leyline is not really a problem because you can bounce it (and your oppponent won't probably play it back), grip it, while you control what you put to graveyard. Unexpected extirpates and tormod crypts are more an issue. Ghost quarter recursion is too slow and deals only with lands, when you need sometimes to deal also with creatures, or enchantments.
Ps : you forgot it but at some point, the lists were closer to the one I play now: http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showt...?t=3668&page=9
First off, I'd make the suggestion of looking over the past 2 pages of posts. Note the date of most of the posts. 2007. The deck's heyday was before Magus of the Moon was played heavily. And alot of the lists posted here are not meant for that type of metagame in the first place. Current 'American' versions of the deck don't normally see alot of play due to a poor combo match-up and a so-so Dreadstill match-up. Versions I have been working on are U/G/R and U/G/R/w in build (no Burning Wish in either). The deck can surprise a meta but like most prison decks this is really meta dependant.Originally Posted by jericohs@cottage
Mythic Rogue Deck Builder
Team Freshly Baked Crayons
Team Albany
A bad tendrils or brain freeze MU. But a good EtW MU. The fact is that EtW is not played anymore. Now that I play trinisphere MD and chalice + meddling mage in SB, I don't consider the combo MU as bad anymore. The deck can adapt and evolve to have answers to combo.
Magus effects are clearly a problem. But in France it is not played anymore. DS can have problems to deal with stax too, and MD rushing river can help to get rid of the moon effects (with mox diamond, so it's quite situationnal, I acknowledge). Post SB, grips and flame jab provide better answers. Actually, the best is probably the stax route. In a such diversified metagame, every deck has its predator. I advise you not to make your opinion on a single MU.
@ Maveric78f Thanks Maveric, I agree. I will not make my opinion on a single MU. But i'd like to mention that MD Rushing Rivers or Flame Jabs isn't the greateast method to combat 8 diff TURN 1 moon effects under Dragon Stompy. Point taken though. I think this is the roughest MU imagineable.
@ Peter Rotten What is the problem with that post? It was a very good comment that is very revelant. I even tested this match-up a few times.
Rushing rivers are not here for this purpose... It's a combo with smokestacks and it gives the tempo the deck needs in order to find time to set up. It's probably the slot the most discussable, but you are also very happy post SB, to have MD hate management. Flame Jab, as well is not here to beat Magus's ass, but rather to deal with gobs, elves and confidant.
I took this deck to my local tournament last night and made it to a top 4 split out of 25ish people. The list:
4x Burning Wish
4x Mox Diamond
3x Life From the Loam
4x Exploration
3x Crop Rotation
4x Crucible of Worlds
2x Gamble
1x Intuition
2x Engineered Explosives
1x Academy Ruins
1x Tropical Island
1x Forest
1x Glacial Chasm
1x Tabernacle
3x Maze of Ith
3x Treetop Village
4x Wasteland
4x Mishra's Factory
1x Ghost Quarter
3x Taiga
3x Wooded Foothills
1x Riftstone Portal
1x Horizon Canopy
3x Tranquil Thicket
1x Barbarian Ring
1x Mountain
Sideboard
1x Worm Harvest
1x Recollect
1x Shattering Spree
1x Life From the Loam
1x Flame Jab
1x Devastating Dreams
1x Reverent Silence
1x Gamble
3x Krosan Grip
4x Chalice of the Void
A few comments on the deck, blue is a LOT better than white in Eternal Garden. I did miss Nomad Stadium when I played against burn, but aside from that it was good. Intuition is just disgusting but I don't like it in multiples and still feel Gamble is the superior card due to its casting cost. Playing around Daze without Exploration when you have Intuition in hand is awesome. As far as Manabond goes, didn't miss it at all. Crucible is really all the deck needs. And the fact that i can dredge into Crucible and recur it with Academy Ruins is just nasty; then again, recurring EE is not so bad either! Although Engineered Explossives was lackluster most of the night, I was still glad it was there to remove Crypt, Relic, Goyf etc. Its very nice to have.
A quick tournament report:
Round 1 - R/G/W Zoo (Loxodon Baileyarch)
game 1: I destroy every land he has with Ghost Quarter and Crop Rotate into Tabernacle.
game 2: Exact same as game 1 except this time I lock him out on turn 4.
Round 2 - Burn (unreg)
Even though he does not run price of progress this is still a hideous matchup, but since Burn isn't like a real deck anyway, I have no problems losing to this pile of garbage.
game 1: No Chalice, I die on turn 7. My goal was to Burning Wish in to Devastating Dreams which I did and cast it on turn 2 for 2 trying to disrupt his mana. But to no avail, 2 lands off the top and some Flame Rifts later thats it. Very stupid.
Game 2: I drop turn 1 Chalice @ 1 and he stalls on 1 mana! I almost pulled this out but I had 7 dead draws IN A ROW that allowed him to win. All I had to draw was another Chalice, Burning Wish, Loam, Intiution ... but I couldn't. I couldn't even draw cycle lands. Here is what I drew in succession: Taiga, Wooded Foothills, Wooded Foothills, Academy Ruins, Taiga, Treetop Village, and Mountain. It was sick, but hey, what can I do? he hits land # 2 and 3 and I die shortly after, to keldon Marauders of all things, I couldn't even draw manlands OR Maze!!!
Round 3: Mono-Black Resource Denial (unreg)
game 1: He has no grave hate and his deck is all about killing lands .... He dies to 18 Worm Harvest tokens in very short order.
game 2: I was forced to mull to 5 because I couldn't get anything I needed for this matchup (answers to Planar Void) and lose after he plays him own Crucible and start Wastelanding my lands and I can't keep pace. I drew like garbage this game as well.
game 3: Now THIS was a good game. I start of with Exploration into turn 2 Crucible then Intuition for Loam, Factory, Village. He dies to the aggro very fast. The deck curved out perfectly.
Round 4: R/W Goblins (Thor)
game 1: He drops turn 1 Lackey which leads into Siege Gang commander on turn 2. I Crop Rotate into Tabernacle and then drop a Mishra's factory and its on to game 2.
game 2: He keeps a no-land hand (hes already in the top 8 because hes 3-0 at this point) with double Relic of Progenitus. Turn 1 he looks at me and says "go". It was awesome, next turn he draw a Mountain off the top and drops Relic. The game goes downhill for him from there. I mulled down to 6 and kept a sub-par hand but I had the cards I needed against Goblins (Crop Rotation). I eventually draw into Burning Wish for the Relic only to see another one come into play. He makes a small effort to kill me with Lackey being Vialed in to start some craziness but Tabernacle just owns that deck. I Gamble for EE and drop it at 1 taking out Vial AND Relic and that ends the game.
Top 8
Round 5 - Team America (kabal)
game 1: I keep a 5 land + Exploration and Gamble hand and both Exploration and Gamble get Forced. His deck played out perfectly for him, this was one of those 1/50 kind of draws, where he just had the perfect cards at the right time. I don't draw any other action spells, I can't draw, Loam, Crucible, Burning Wish, another Gamble, Intuition, Crop Rotation, or Maze of Ith to handle the Tombstalker he had. I dropped EE at 2 for Goyf but ... didn't matter.
game 2: This was sick. I got Exploration, Crucible, Ghost Quarter going and he lost very quickly. However, he did play 1 basic land and he also had the Tombstalker but it didn't matter. I Crop Rotated into Maze of Ith just before I killed off the rest of his lands and he is unable to do anything.
game 3: I mull to 6 and keep a very sub-par hand. This game is really close. He tries to Sinkhole and Wasteland me for tempo ... doesn't have any kind of effect. I start killing his non-basics and he gets an early Tombstalker. I have drawn garbage this whole time but after being beaten by Tombstalker once I drew into Burning Wish and was able to Wish for Gamble, Gamble for Maze of Ith with 4 cards in hand, and play Maze of Ith. We play draw go for a little and I am just drawing like shit. Eventually I hit an Exploration and things got even better. I starting removing the rest of his lands but he had enough to mount a final effort when Goyf join his team. I end up taking 2 more swings from a Tombstalker after a suprise Wasteland and a Sinkhole on my Maze of Ith. I end up being at 1 life and I manage to lock him out with Glacial Chasm recursion. I have Crucible (recurred with Academy Ruins FTW), Exploration, and lots of lands in the yard. Wasteland finishes off his remaining lands and Crop Rotate into Tabernacle seals the deal.
In the top 4 we decide to split and everyone walks away with 30$ store credit! Top 4 was Goblins (Thor), R/G/W Zoo (Loxodon Baileyarch), Eternal Garden (me), and Terrageddon (unreg).
I am very satisfied with this build, the deck is SO solid. But one thing that really bothers me is that it seems like the deck is usually operating below what it can. When I am in topdeck mode (which is not often) it seems like the deck should be doing ... something I realize it plays 33 lands but still. I always seem to draw just the wrong cards at the wrong time, but because the Loam and Crucible engines are so strong is doesn't matter. Frequently the deck just seems like its operating on only a fraction of a level of its real capabilities but it still manages to win, especially when being Loam screwed or dredging into garbage. Has anyone ever thought this? Its weird and hard to explain, it just feels like the deck is operating on 2 cylinders a lot of the time out of a potential 8 cylinders but still manages to beat deck with great draws while operating on a sub-par level.
"I just shot Marvin in the face!"
"Why the fuck'd you do that??"
@Maverick. Is the list you play still the list in the link? cause it seems a bit outdated to me. Im getting really interested in the deck after we played online. And I was wondering in what meta it would really shine.
My version. I'm still not fully satisfied with it for consistency issues.
// Lands
4 [TE] Wasteland
1 [EX] City of Traitors
4 [AQ] Mishra's Factory (2)
4 [DK] Maze of Ith
4 [ON] Windswept Heath
3 [B] Tropical Island
1 [R] Savannah
1 [LG] The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
1 [OD] Nomad Stadium
1 [TSP] Academy Ruins
1 [RAV] Forest (4)
2 [FUT] Horizon Canopy
1 [U] Taiga
1 [OD] Barbarian Ring
1 [IA] Glacial Chasm
// Spells
4 [TE] Intuition
4 [US] Exploration
4 [FD] Crucible of Worlds
4 [SH] Mox Diamond
1 [RAV] Life from the Loam
1 [FD] Engineered Explosives
3 [US] Smokestack
3 [UL] Crop Rotation
3 [PS] Rushing River
3 [DS] Trinisphere
// Sideboard
SB: 1 [P2] Armageddon
SB: 2 [P3] Ravages of War
SB: 3 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 4 [MR] Chalice of the Void
SB: 1 [EVE] Flame Jab
SB: 4 [JGC] Meddling Mage
thnx, I will test the deck out!
hm. no Crop Rotation?
Btw. Has anyone ever tested Azusa, Lost but Seeking?
2 Explorations in 1 card is amazing.
3 crop rotations. Check it out.
Why'd you cut the constant mists? Have you been missing them or are they just bad now that CB is in thresh and goblins isn't omnipresent anymore?
I also say Ethersworn Canonist > Meddling Mage for anti-combo. Plus canonist can get recurred with Ruins. And it's easier to cast.
Hello everyone,
I'm glad to see this topic is not completely dead as the deck is a really strong contender in the metagame and a fun deck to play.
We have a monthly Legacy tournament here in Nagoya called the CBL (Closet Belief Legacy). We have around 20 regulars who are "fully powered" and about ~6 less experienced players every month. Yesterday was CBL 21 and we had a 24 player crowd, which meant 4 or 5 rounds (four rounds if we have a winner after four rounds, five otherwise), no single elimination.
Here is the deck I played
// Lands
4 [TE] Wasteland
4 [4E] Mishra's Factory
3 [DK] Maze of Ith
3 [ON] Wooded Foothills
2 [R] Tropical Island
2 [EX] City of Traitors
1 [R] Savannah
1 [FUT] Horizon Canopy
1 [ON] Windswept Heath
1 [DIS] Ghost Quarter
1 [OD] Barbarian Ring
1 [LG] The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
1 [OD] Nomad Stadium
1 [SH] Volrath's Stronghold
1 [R] Bayou
1 [R] Plateau
1 [TSP] Academy Ruins
1 [IA] Glacial Chasm
1 [CS] Snow-Covered Forest
1 [10E] Treetop Village
1 [JU] Riftstone Portal
// Creatures
1 [FD] Eternal Witness
// Spells
4 [SH] Mox Diamond
4 [US] Exploration
4 [10E] Crucible of Worlds
4 [TE] Intuition
3 [UL] Crop Rotation
3 [5E] Armageddon
1 [RAV] Life from the Loam
1 [FD] Engineered Explosives
1 [US] Smokestack
1 [TSB] Tormod's Crypt
// Sideboard
SB: 4 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 4 [DS] Trinisphere
SB: 4 [MR] Chalice of the Void
SB: 1 [CHK] Boseiju, Who Shelters All
SB: 1 [IA] Zuran Orb
SB: 1 [SOK] Pithing Needle
Round I, against Eva Green
First turn Tabernacle basicly won me game 1 and turn 1 Mox Diamond Exploration double Maze of Ith the second one.
Round II, against RGw Zoo
More challenging but the deck can't really lose against aggro.
Round III, against BGw Doran
Turn 1 Thoughtseize on my lone spell Life from the Loam won me the game fairly easily and a few timely Krosan Grip won me game 2.
Round IV, against Rbw Goblins
I won first game quickly and then the second game he brought me down to four life before I can stabilize but he has Wort in play and a couple of Mogg Fanatics doing their things, I think about conceding but a Zuran Orb keeps me alive and with 10 minutes left on the clock I think my best shot at winning is to stabilize for another few turns. He kills me on turn 3 of the extra turns and it's a draw.
I finish 3-0-1 2nd on tiebreakers; winning a judge promo Vindicate and 6 Alara packs.
About the deck:
I mostly copied the deck from the French versions of the deck adding the Eternal Witness - Volrath's Tomb engine in the deck. I think if I had to replay the deck I would change one Chalice of the Void in the SB for a Shriekmaw (CotV is obviously very strong against two of our worst matchups Combo and Burn but as we play a lot of 1cc spells ourselves it is tough to side out for it. Shriekmaw is good with Volrath's Tomb in the deck. Riftstone Portal could be an Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth) but overall the deck was really strong and I would recommend anyone who can build the deck to give it a try. Combo is a difficult matchup but it is not unwinnable. I would like to fit in a third City of Traitors in the deck but the only thin I could going out is one Wasteland (but I'm not sure I want to do that) or the Main Deck Tormod's Crypt but then it would have to go in the SB where space is already a concern.
By the way, I don't see how Burning Wish should be in the deck? Reverent Silence doesn't solve Blood Moon most of the time and we need a real Sideboard against Combo and Burn!
Thoughts?
Komatsu Laurent
~ Gonz' ~
You don't see why Burning Wish is necessary? Have you ever played against Leyline of the Void? Tormod's Crypt? Extirpate? How about consistency? Copies 4,5,6,7 of Loam or Gamble 4,5,6,7? A kill source? Burning Wish answers anything you can possibly think of if your wishboard is properly set up (including the random Tombstalker). Blood Moon, Magus of the Moon, Leyline, etc. The only thing this deck can't handle is combo. The only out is hoping they have Empty the Warrens and are able to Crop Rotate into Glacial Chasm/Tabernacle to shut them out. Against proper storm combo (basically anything not Belcher) this deck has no chance. Same with Burn. Goyf Sligh is a race that you can occassionally win thanks to Ghost Quarter and Glacial Chasm but against Mono-Red Burn this deck almost can't win. SB Chalice of the Void helps, as well as Burning Wish for Devastating Dreams to keep them off lands and out of Fireblast range! You could even run a single Zuran Orb but that places a heavy emphasis Loam/Exploration, so if the burn player is running Tormod's Crypt you are in bad shape.
Circle of Protection: Red is not a bad SB option but still sucks. I personally hate the idea of playing SB cards that only apply to maybe 2 matchups that aren't good and makes them semi-not good. They would be replacing Chalice of the Void which is sided in quite often and helps against both burn and combo. Although I do dislike Chalice in the SB because of the anti-synergy between it and Exploration/Crop Rotation/Gamble, I guess the question is which matchup do you see more of, burn or combo? Gear your SB towards beating whichever one is more common and/or is more greatly improved by the cards.
"I just shot Marvin in the face!"
"Why the fuck'd you do that??"
I'm still working occassionally, too.
Yes, Leyline and Crypt are a huge problems, but I'm not sure, if you really need the wish, if you just pack your 4 Krosan Grips in the SB.
Extirpate isn't a real problem, since all your lands are 1-offs and Extirpate on Crucible or Exploration is nearly gg anyway (and Wish does nothing then, too).
Devastating Dreams is so good, I'd play 2 MD.
Tombstalker as Burning Wish target?
Could Pyrostatic Pillar be somewhat good against Storm, too, though it hits ourselves?
And isn't Chasm sufficient against Burn? (never tested this matchup) Are they too fast? I'd rather play Chill instead of Cop:Red. But in the end I'd play none of them.
But doesn't Trinisphere do its job good enough against both?
I also tested the "french" versions with 3 Geddons, 4 Wastelands, 4 Maze, 4 Mishra's Factory, but came to the conclusions, that it is too much colorless mana. Earlier in this thread, people found, that 1-2 of each are enough, since all are tutorable and I think this way is the right way. Wasteland is too often dead, and I'd rather build up a good position, rather than attack with factories. And I don't believe that Riftstone Portal really fixes that problem.
How has this been working out?
EDIT: What about Mana Maze as solution for the Burn and Storm Combo decks? Burn can only play 1 spell each turn, and most storm combo decks are only UB, so they will never get enough storm. At least this is better than Ethersworn Canonist... and it makes your keyspells uncounterable, since Mana Maze is blue, they can't play a blue spell anymore.
Last edited by TheLion; 12-15-2008 at 03:18 PM.
Sorry, should have made it clear about Tombstalker. Ever since I played Aggro Loam with Wish I ran a Wing Snare in the SB to take care of the random creatures I seemed to not be able to handle. It really works, the only creature that gives this deck problems is like a turn 4 Tombstalker. Can be annoying since usually decks running Tombstalker just Wasteland or Sinkhold your Maze of ith.
Trinisphere is pretty good, I guess turn 2 against burn it would make a big difference. Chill would be worse than this since Trinisphere is good VS combo as well where as Chill is only good in the burn/Goyf Sligh matchup.
Glacial Chasm doesn't do shit against burn. Price of Progress is an instant, and so are most other relevant burn spells. When you don't pay Glacial Chasm's upkeep effect and recur it with Loam/Crucible + Exploration (which is how the lock works) they just burn you when it isn't in play. The only thing you can do against Price of Progress is save a Crop Rotation and Crop Rotate into Glacial Chasm with Price on the stack.
"I just shot Marvin in the face!"
"Why the fuck'd you do that??"
Chalice of the Void and Trinisphere is usually enough against burn but it has to come out fast so your Chasm is relevant (as Pulp Fiction pointed out it is not a "lock" per se). And this is why I think you need at least 7 of them in the SB. I understand why Burning Wish is good but what I say is that it is not better than a real SB (4 Krosan Grip 4 Trinisphere 3~4 Chalice of the Void) probably.
I don't understand how Wasteland is too much? Is it ever dead in your metagames!? Not in mine. Extirpate is a problem but not unsolvable as most of your lands are 1-of and nothing 100% necessary (this is why I play Factories and 1 Treetop Village and 1 Barbarian Ring), same goes for Crucible or Life from the Loam, as we still have the other one.
For the colorless mana, I never found myself color-screwed... And yes Riftstone Portal helps that. Speaking of which, Wastelanding your own Riftstone Portal is a play I made a few times with no regrets.
As for Tombstalker, it's true Eva Green-like decks will wasteland/sinkhole your land but hopefully you can bring it back or have two in play, hence the need to play at least 3 Maze of Iths (making Rifstone Portal even better...). I'd fear Jötun Grunt much more... And this is where the Armageddon kicks in; it's our Wrath of God.
I feel like Burning Wish takes a lot of space in a color that otherwise doesn't need to be more than tertiary. Mana Maze would be good against Storm but probably not better than Sphere of Resistance or Trinisphere but I feel it would be pretty pointless against burn. They shouldn't be able to play more than a spell or two in a turn anyway... Burn usually kills you out of a topdeck. And they can even play Red Elemental Blast on it.
Finally, I don't like to rely on Gamble (because it's red first and has a casting cost of one) to get Life from the Loam. 3 mana is so easy to get Intuition is just so much better and harder to counter with Counterbalance.
Devastating Dreams is definitely a strong card but tough to cast in my deck and I don't like how the discard is a part of the cost...
Thank you for the thoughts, I will try to test everything. I will definitely play the deck again next month.
Komatsu Laurent
~ Gonz' ~
Yes, right, Mana Maze is not good against Burn... Chalice and Trinisphere still are the best cards for troublesome matchups.
I am currently trying to fit both into the Maindeck, just because they are not only good against Storm and Burn but also against many other decks.
I realized that we only run a single cc2 spell (Life from the Loam) and ~7 cc1 spells (Crop Rotation and Exploration).
So I replaced Crop Rotation with Scapeshift and Exploration with Azusa, Lost but Seeking and Rites of Flourishing, in order to fit in Chalice and Trinisphere.
Azusa is very fragile but on the other hand she equals 2 Exploration and can be recurred with Stronghold.
It makes the deck a little slower (no more instant speed Chasm or Maze), but maybe it's worth it.
Gifts Ungiven might be better though than Scapeshift.
4 Crucible of Worlds
3 Azusa, Lost but Seeking
1 Rites of Flourishing
4 Intuition
2 Scapeshift
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Trinisphere
2 Armageddon
1 Zuran Orb
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Life from the Loam
1 Smokestack
4 Mox Diamond
+ 29 lands
Has anyone given this a try?
I also like the red splash in this deck. It opens up to Devastating Dream, Burning Wish, Wildfire, Seismic Assault, better Barbarian Ring support, or even Thoughts of Ruin (which sometimes is better than Geddon, sometimes worse),
while the W splash only gives Armageddon and maybe Humility or StP.
Though if you play Chalice and Sphere, there just aren't any slots to play things like this...
Btw: The thing about Wasteland is, that 1-2 are usually enough, since u can tutor it up, when u need it.
Actually most storm decks can play around MM. Besides alternating U and B spells they also have artifacts they can drop to break up the colour streaks.
As for making your spells uncountrable, it (at best) applies to four off your spells (Intuitions) while at the same time locking you somewhat (e.g. a main-phase Ponder means no Intuition EOT etc.).
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