[Deck] Ichorid

[Zach Tartell]

Which match ups do you usually board in Leyline of the Void?

The mirror and Goblins. Goyf Sligh if you see Mogg Fanatic (and don't expect crypts) (actually, board out like 8 things and put in 4 Needle 4 Leyline).

[Holiday]

Thanks Zach,

So you wouldn't bother for decks like survival or loam?

[Zach Tartell]

Thanks Zach,

So you wouldn't bother for decks like survival or loam?

Against Survival you're more worried about what they can tutor up. Like, if they're running the ridiculously old RGSA (like something with Mogg Fanatics) then maybe. You're more worried about RGBSA (or whatever vanilla build of Survival with black) and their Yixlid Jailers. (that is to say board in Chain of Vapors over leylines)

And loam.... we should try and goldfish Loam. Their best defense is Leyline, and that's pretty easy (since they don't have counter magic or much (any?) discard) to deal with. Like, slowing them down a crap ton is cool. But I'd rather just win.

[AnwarA101]

Which match ups do you usually board in Leyline of the Void?

I also board it against Storm combo to cut off the Ill-Gotten Gains loop.

[Shimster]

@ Parcher / AnwarA101: Why do you cut Careful Study instead of Deep Analysis? Although more Analyses strengthen the percentage of 1st turn kills (or the combo kill in general), more Studies help finding solutions postboard.

I am going to run a 11 land, 2 Sage, 4 Imp, 4 Ichorid, 3 Therapy, 3 Study, 2 Analysis list in Iserlohn on Sunday. If I am well rested, I'll write a report.

[Parcher]

@ Parcher / AnwarA101: Why do you cut Careful Study instead of Deep Analysis? Although more Analyses strengthen the percentage of 1st turn kills (or the combo kill in general), more Studies help finding solutions postboard.

You're absolutely correct...but it's a very slippery slope when thinking that way. The extra two cards you see off Study can be the whole game post-board. If you are chosing to remove LED form the main, I highly recommend running it. But removing DA reduces the effectiveness of LED; mainly only to paying for costs, Coliseum, or a poor discard outlet. Even my cutting to two can sometimes hamper the combo. The main reason being, this deck doesn't aim to win turn one (though I'll take it if lucky). You usually set up the turn two-three win on turn one. By this time, you will usually be able to pull/Dredge a DA, which will assure the win. In matches where you side out LED, DA goes as well. This will not give greater accessability to the answers that Careful Study does, but you will have more room for them (i.e. Chain of Vapor, and a specific other card). This is partially the reson I have been revamping the sideboard. To utilize more aggressive cards that are less dependant on specific hate opponents have brought in.

[Tenant_Tron]

Heya guys, Im a long time Ichorid player and decided to finally jump in the discussion here! I have very little respect for the people in here who suggest cutting LED or Breakthrough, so i dont want to hear about that... since I actually have experience with the deck and know that those are both very bad to even think about cutting, so my question really goes to Anwar and Parcher who seem to be putting up results lately and also seem level headed on the best 8 engine cards in the deck, and came up with the latest tech which I really like being Unmask.

I agree with the inclusion of Unmask, and think I will try running 3 MD and 1 SB, but my question is what is the best cut for the 3rd Unmask? I agree that cutting the 1 undecided slot I had and the 3rd Deep Analysis are probably best, but for the 3rd one Anwar seems to have cut the 4th Cephalid Coliseum for the 3rd Unmask, as seen in his article "From Here to Eternity". Im just wondering if that 4th Coliseum is really the proper cut, since you often want Coliseum especially since you are keeping a level head and running 4 Breakthrough and 4 LED. The way I see it our options are:

4th Coliseum - Just unsure...
4th Gemstone Mine - Would make casting non-blue spells harder obviously
4th Putrid Imp - Great engine, black so pitches to Unmask/Ichorid
4th Ichorid - Good to have all 4 in long games or vs STP
3rd Dread Return - 3 may not be needed, but it is black and helps pitch to Unmask or combo a turn earlier

Again, Im just not sure Id cut Coliseum, I think right now I am leaning toward cutting the 3rd Dread Return or the 4th Coliseum and keeping the Imp/Ichorid core intact...any rationalization of this decision appreciated!

T.T

[AnwarA101]

Heya guys, Im a long time Ichorid player and decided to finally jump in the discussion here! I have very little respect for the people in here who suggest cutting LED or Breakthrough, so i dont want to hear about that... since I actually have experience with the deck and know that those are both very bad to even think about cutting, so my question really goes to Anwar and Parcher who seem to be putting up results lately and also seem level headed on the best 8 engine cards in the deck, and came up with the latest tech which I really like being Unmask.

I agree with the inclusion of Unmask, and think I will try running 3 MD and 1 SB, but my question is what is the best cut for the 3rd Unmask? I agree that cutting the 1 undecided slot I had and the 3rd Deep Analysis are probably best, but for the 3rd one Anwar seems to have cut the 4th Cephalid Coliseum for the 3rd Unmask, as seen in his article "From Here to Eternity". Im just wondering if that 4th Coliseum is really the proper cut, since you often want Coliseum especially since you are keeping a level head and running 4 Breakthrough and 4 LED. The way I see it our options are:

4th Coliseum - Just unsure...
4th Gemstone Mine - Would make casting non-blue spells harder obviously
4th Putrid Imp - Great engine, black so pitches to Unmask/Ichorid
4th Ichorid - Good to have all 4 in long games or vs STP
3rd Dread Return - 3 may not be needed, but it is black and helps pitch to Unmask or combo a turn earlier

Again, Im just not sure Id cut Coliseum, I think right now I am leaning toward cutting the 3rd Dread Return or the 4th Coliseum and keeping the Imp/Ichorid core intact...any rationalization of this decision appreciated!

T.T

Putrid Imp gives you a good plan against Tormod's Crypt and he's also very strong part of your aggro plan. Dread Return is a possibility, but I think you still want to be able to combo your opponent out on a regular basis especially if you are running 4 Breakthrough and 4 LED. Ichorid is essential for having the beatdown plan when you don't the combo win. Gemstone Mine is possible, but I really like being able to cast Putrid Imp and playing one less Mine makes that slightly less likely. That's why I think cutting the Cephalid Coliseum is correct since its the least painful of the possible cuts you could make.

[DeathwingZERO]

In the last 24 hours I've been testing a rather interesting list. Suffice it to say I put a lot of the ideas that people have been talking about (myself included) and ran some comparisons to the way the deck ran previously.

In testing (pre-board goldfishing), I ran roughly 30-40 games for each of the 2 versions. The older list (one Linkxwing and I had going, with MD Wraiths instead of Breakthrough), we were averaging a very solid kill on turn 3 (anything 24 damage and over, counting a single blocker would be there by then). Out of a number of games, this included anything going past turn 5 that didn't combo as an auto-loss (giving opponents far too much time to recover).

The new list, which runs very, very differently, is 3.1 turns. I will spill the fact the list is more akin to Extended, but not quite. Though a very interesting side effect of the .1 turn speed loss, it was far more consistent with combo kills, AND was doing it with both Unmask and Cabal Therapy being such heavy hitters typically the opponent didn't have a hand. I also noticed the combo would tend to hit far more zombies, which was awesome when considering random decks packing fatties that I just had to swarm 20 damage past. I also was able to do a wrecking ball 42 damage in one swing on 4th turn, and with only 3 Dread Return, that was pretty damn good. I haven't put up numbers like that since we still had the 4th in the main.

If I actually do a good enough job of taking notes, I'll try to write a report for the tournament tomorrow. If not, I'll just have notes of each match, and the decklist. Expect to be weirded out, at the very least. I guarantee this list will look odd to some of you.

[kicks_422]

Hey, whatever wins, weird or not. I'm looking forward to that. I like the sound of that 2nd list though, since Unmask and Therapy have proven to be such a wrecking ball for me as well in MWS.

My most recent list is without LED and Deep Analysis though, maxing out on Careful Study instead so that grave hate wouldn't hurt as much. That said, I still don't know if that makes the deck or better or worse - all I know is that it makes Games 2 and 3 a bit more stable, especially in finding SB cards.

[Jaiminho]

I also was able to do a wrecking ball 42 damage in one swing on 4th turn, and with only 3 Dread Return, that was pretty damn good. I haven't put up numbers like that since we still had the 4th in the main.

Does that count for anything? I mean, as long as you can get 20 damage, it doesn't matter how much extra you get. It's like being able to get infinite storm, when you only need 10. It's no bonus.

[DeathwingZERO]

Does that count for anything? I mean, as long as you can get 20 damage, it doesn't matter how much extra you get. It's like being able to get infinite storm, when you only need 10. It's no bonus.

Actually it means a lot. For starters, it means that there will be opportunities to push through creatures that are bigger than 3/3, which was one of the best things about the 4 DR's in the main, at times you could chain the combo to get a few up to 5/5s and 6/6s. My meta includes much the elves and Goblin variants, so if I can push even 3-4 zombies through of 10, they need to swing for as much as possible.

[Race War]

Does that count for anything? I mean, as long as you can get 20 damage, it doesn't matter how much extra you get. It's like being able to get infinite storm, when you only need 10. It's no bonus.

It counts for something. 20 damage is fine, if the board is totally clear. You must consider blockers and any other effects in play.

[Jaiminho]

Seemed as if he was mentioning 42 damage past a lone blocker, which goes for something like 46 total damage. By turn 3, you shouldn't expect more than 3 blockers, so he would get something like 34 damage through, which is way more than 20.

[DeathwingZERO]

Seemed as if he was mentioning 42 damage past a lone blocker, which goes for something like 46 total damage. By turn 3, you shouldn't expect more than 3 blockers, so he would get something like 34 damage through, which is way more than 20.

The "lethal" damage was roughly 30, I assumed there was always an additional blocker from turn 1 on, and I wasn't swinging with Ichorids or Moeba's, assuming a more controllish roll with Therapy -> Bridge activations, mostly because I never saw my FKZ until that turn.

So I finished 4th in the tournament earlier, of about 22 people. All 4 Ichorid decks piloted hit the top 8, and I lost to a RGB sligh variant packing 13 pieces of hate against me.

*A note to those who play game 2, and want something to call? EXTIRFUCKINGPATE. I kept a hand of 2 Therapy, 2 land, Imp, Study, Chain......and called Crypt because I'm an idiot. I then proceed to see 2x Extirpate + Wasteland + nonsense, lose my Therapy in hand and 2 left in the deck, followed by the other ripping my Stinkweeds because I had to bait him. Then he topdecked Crypt. Savage beats.

Anyway, onto the deck:

Type 1.5x Ichorid

Lands: 12
4 Gemstone Mine
4 City of Brass
4 Cephalid Coliseum

Dredge: 11
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
3 Golgari Thug

Control: 7
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Unmask

Randomness: 15
3 Narcomoeba
4 Ichorid
4 Putrid Imp
4 Bridge From Below

Draw: 10
4 Street Wraith
4 Careful Study
2 Breakthrough

Combo: 5
3 Dread Return
1 Cephalid Sage
1 Flame-Kin Zealot

Sideboard:(this is where things get really weird)
4 Chain of Vapor
4 Mystical Tutor
1 Unmask
1 Sundering Titan
1 Underground Sea
2 Island
2 Darkblast

So ya, this is the list that in Game 1 goldfished a 3.1 turn average, compared to the 3.0 from my previous version. While it was going to be a very uphill battle if anybody maindecked Chalice, I knew I wasn't going to see it. Even then, I have multiple outs still to both dredge and draw, and Ichorid + Imp + Moeba beats were putting my opponents down to 0 by turn 4 on their own.

I'll have a tournament report up tomorrow, suffice it to say I had some really good matches, and some really terrible ones. I went 3-1-1, beat a mirror in top 8 and lost to RGB Sligh in top 4. The only cards I don't remember siding in were Darkblast, but they may have come in at some point. Titan only came in during the final match, but I was never able to dredge into him.

[kicks_422]

MD's pretty close to mine. Here's where I am:

Lands: 12
4 Gemstone Mine
4 City of Brass
4 Cephalid Coliseum

Dredge: 12
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Golgari Thug

Control: 8
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Unmask

Randomness: 16
4 Narcomoeba
4 Ichorid
4 Putrid Imp
4 Bridge From Below

Draw: 8
4 Careful Study
4 Breakthrough

Combo: 4
2 Dread Return
1 Cephalid Sage
1 Flame-Kin Zealot

With a more traditional SB of:

4 Chain of Vapor
4 Pithing Needle
4 Leyline of the Void
2 Ray of Revelation
1 Woodfall Primus

I'd like to fit in Street Wraiths though, so I just might end up with something much more similar to yours. I sometimes miss the explosiveness of LED + Deep Analysis (like sometimes I wish the Careful Study in my hand was a Deep Analysis), but the less reliance on the graveyard going into G2 seems very good.

Question though: With your SB, a Crypt and/or a Fanatic would seriously slow you down, as you have no way of stopping those on the draw. Is it worth it?

[Kanti]

Ichorid w/ Unmask M;D

Creatures [28]
1 Cephalid Sage
1 Flame-Kin Zealot
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
2 Golgari Thug
4 Ichorid
4 Narcomoeba
4 Putrid Imp
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Street Wraith

Sorceries [17]
2 Breakthrough
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Careful Study
1 Deep Analysis
3 Dread Return
4 Unmask

Enchantments [4]
4 Bridge from Below

Lands [11]
4 Cephalid Coliseum
4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine

Sideboard [15]
1 Ancient Grudge
3 Chain of Vapor
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Contagion
1 Echoing Truth
1 Pithing Needle
1 Ray of Revelation

What I would like to know is how to correctly sb with this deck.
What do I take out and put in matches

[Tenant_Tron]

MD's pretty close to mine. Here's where I am:

Lands: 12
4 Gemstone Mine
4 City of Brass
4 Cephalid Coliseum

Dredge: 12
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Golgari Thug

Control: 8
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Unmask

Randomness: 16
4 Narcomoeba
4 Ichorid
4 Putrid Imp
4 Bridge From Below

Draw: 8
4 Careful Study
4 Breakthrough

Combo: 4
2 Dread Return
1 Cephalid Sage
1 Flame-Kin Zealot

With a more traditional SB of:

4 Chain of Vapor
4 Pithing Needle
4 Leyline of the Void
2 Ray of Revelation
1 Woodfall Primus

I'd like to fit in Street Wraiths though, so I just might end up with something much more similar to yours. I sometimes miss the explosiveness of LED + Deep Analysis (like sometimes I wish the Careful Study in my hand was a Deep Analysis), but the less reliance on the graveyard going into G2 seems very good.

Question though: With your SB, a Crypt and/or a Fanatic would seriously slow you down, as you have no way of stopping those on the draw. Is it worth it?

This list without LED, which Im still Im not sure I agree with, doesnt seem all that bad actually. The only thing I would change is I would add a 3rd DR and cut the 4th Thug, especially with 4 Studys to find a dredger 11 is certainly enough. I wonder if it might be good to run some number of Tireless Tribe here like the good Extended lists did, they didnt not have LED/DA in that format and Tribe worked very well, tho it would probably require adding 1-2 rainbow lands and cutting Unmasks. I guess it comes down to Unmask vs. Tribe...thoughts? Btw I think Street Wraith is bad, I have tried it in Legacy and Extended and it is much worse than having an actually engine card like Imp/Tribe or blue draw spell like Breakthrough/Study/Coliseum.

T.T

[DeathwingZERO]

@T.T: I have to seriously disagree about SW now. He is ridiculous. Every time I had him in my hand, I loved it. I pay 2 life for guaranteed dredge. Then I use the same dredge engine enabler to bring back an Ichorid. The deck literally was beating opponents solely on Ichorid + zombies and PImp beats about 3/4 the time. I only had to really combo out twice. Even against an LED list in the top 8, I beat him down to 8 JUST because of early PImp dredging hitting Ichorid and Moebas, then finally saw the FKZ and closed the deal. SW enables me to dredge far more often, and far more consistently, and in multiples, he's just downright sick. He also makes playing on the draw much more retarded.

Every game 2 I saw that I had a Troll, I passed turn and discarded. I had one game where 2 of these guys were in my hand, I discarded my Troll, waited until the end of their turn, dredged it, then saw another, dredged that, and went off on my turn 2. 4 life and I'm 12 cards deeper in my library (17 by my draw step) and I hadn't even cast a spell yet, on top of having 2 guaranteed Ichorid removers. I'm very doubtful I'm cutting him back now. To put it bluntly, I NEVER had him in my hand for more than a turn, and he never drew me a card.

@Kicks: The Crypts were a bit of a nuisance, but of all my matches, the ones I already planned on losing to boarded them in. StifleNought destroyed me games 2 and 3, because he ripped Stifle's and Crypt's early on me, and Wasteland + FoW/Daze kept me off my plays. I already knew StifleNought is a bad matchup, as you have to race them knowing about half your deck is now able to be shut down. The other match that had them that I saw was the RGB deck. But that Crypt off his topdeck was pretty much just a nail in the coffin. He already ripped my Therapies and Stinkweeds from game, and Bolted my PImp followed by Wasting my Mine. I literally had nothing on him that game.

My answers to Fanatic used to be Needle or Leyline. The R/B Goblins list changed all that. Needle is pretty much useless now, as the build my buddy piloted had somewhere in the neighborhood of 10-12 ways of getting a goblin in the yard on his turn, without swinging. Leyline I actually took out of the SB so he could use them, as I wasn't expecting any other Goblin or Ichorid lists to show up, so I figured they were just "meh". In fact, in the top 8 round, my opponent sided in Chain of Vapor against me, expecting Leylines. Effectively, I had him side in 4 dead cards. I liked that.

I'll give you all some insight on exactly what the SB was intended for, and I will admit this sideboard is NOT my usual, nor will it be.

2 Island/1 Sea: These are in for 2 main reasons: consistent blue mana sources, 2 of which are waste proof, as well as boarding in replacements for Coliseum when I either a) REALLY value my life total or b) see Needles in the opponents main/side (the Goyfinity player had them maindecked). All in all, they were pretty useful. The Islands were permanent mana sources, as they couldn't be hit with B2B, Moon, Waste, etc. Probably not sure if I am going to keep them, but if more Ichorid decks show up, I will, just to fit that one Wonder in the Titan slot.

Titan: I wanted him for when I was capable of getting a very explosive dredge after being able to bypass a tough matches hate. My logic was if I could DR him, not only would I nuke probably 3-4 lands depending on the build, but I lose nothing, and have a 7/10 beater they have to deal with. Unfortunately he never came out, and I REALLY wanted to see him in that top 4 match. Dude had practically nothing but duals out there.

2 Blast: This was mainly for early plays against Goblins, or Bobs, anything with 1 toughness, sometimes 2 if I can cast twice w/ dredge. Also would have been good for mirrors, as they nuke Ichorid, PImp, and Moeba. Fuel for my Bridges/nuking theirs, or taking their creatures out if I haven't seen a Bridge. Truthfully, these slots were just to get more dredge if I needed it faster, and I think they have use in certain tough matches. Probably won't stick around though.

Mystical Tutor: It's been discussed in the thread for a few pages, being able to dig for an answer that doesn't immediately go into hand, keeping it safe from discard until you draw into it. In addition to SW, it can be gotten immediately. I really wanted to see how it worked, unfortunately for the games I sided them in (alongside Chain) I NEVER saw one. So I really can't say whether or not I like them. They'll stick around for now though.

The rest (4 Chain of Vapor, 1 Unmask) were obvious, as they've been in the build forever. I need some kind of answer to Leyline/Jailer (sometimes Crypt, if I can afford to lose the yard), and Unmask was practically an MVP when I was able to cast them. 4 Therapy + 4 Unmask made for some really, really good disruption.

I think I've put out enough for this reply, so I'll get back to working on my short tournament report, if I remember any of it.

[Tenant_Tron]

@T.T: I have to seriously disagree about SW now. He is ridiculous. Every time I had him in my hand, I loved it. I pay 2 life for guaranteed dredge. Then I use the same dredge engine enabler to bring back an Ichorid. The deck literally was beating opponents solely on Ichorid + zombies and PImp beats about 3/4 the time. I only had to really combo out twice. Even against an LED list in the top 8, I beat him down to 8 JUST because of early PImp dredging hitting Ichorid and Moebas, then finally saw the FKZ and closed the deal. SW enables me to dredge far more often, and far more consistently, and in multiples, he's just downright sick. He also makes playing on the draw much more retarded.

Every game 2 I saw that I had a Troll, I passed turn and discarded. I had one game where 2 of these guys were in my hand, I discarded my Troll, waited until the end of their turn, dredged it, then saw another, dredged that, and went off on my turn 2. 4 life and I'm 12 cards deeper in my library (17 by my draw step) and I hadn't even cast a spell yet, on top of having 2 guaranteed Ichorid removers. I'm very doubtful I'm cutting him back now. To put it bluntly, I NEVER had him in my hand for more than a turn, and he never drew me a card.

Like, I understand what Street Wraith does for the deck, but I just dont see how its better than any other slot in the deck. For instance, I would rather have Unmask in order to assure me an LED/Breakthrough/DA/Coliseum combo of 2-4 dredges on the spot than gaurantee the 1 free dredge with SW. SW seems like it would be very useful in a version of Dredge that was solely built around swing with an army of Ichorids/Zombies/Ashen Ghouls/Nether Shadows, but I think every other card in the deck is better at the Ichorid Combo part of the deck. Basically, I realize SW is good, but I dont think it really fits in with the combo side of the deck all that much, which is what this particular thread is about after all.

T.T