[Deck] NoCantrip.deck

[Willoe]

Hmm, D_I_F told me it was called NQls. Looked a bit like It's the Fear or VoroshStill, something like that :)

Since the real swarm decks (Except Angel Stompy and Death and Taxes) often are tribal, wouldn't the propaganda's be better as engineered plague? I'm thinking that Goblins roll us etc.

[Maveric78f]

Since the real swarm decks (Except Angel Stompy and Death and Taxes) often are tribal, wouldn't the propaganda's be better as engineered plague? I'm thinking that Goblins roll us etc.

1*plague does almost nothing against gob when propaganda*1 does almost everything.
Plus plague is black, requires that you have B available, with only 9 black sources. As I told, I can't rely on my splash colours.
Plus propaganda helps against zoo, against taiga, against Dragon Stompy (but actually I'm not sure I'm siding them in because I already have EE, jitte and harness to enter against 3*standstill, 3*conclave, 4*stifle, mmh why not...).

I had a look to Voroshstill and I don't see how you can lose against that. Stifle is absolutely broken against it, as well as aether vial. They have absolutely no draw engine, since their standstill will probably be unplayable. Deed will probably be very difficult to play since they don't play any basics except island. The main threat of the list is crucible, only *2 and requires 3 sorcery manas which would allow you to daze quite easily. And even with it you have often enough flying men to finish the game. I played a lot against Ugb standstill decks and it has always been a very positive MU. Uw is more difficult because they usually have a safe mana base. And Ugb control decks without standstill (like it's the fear, but better usually because without white) are also a bit more difficult (but not much because I can still control their mana base) because they play good draw engines (intuition and Fact).

[Willoe]

1*plague does almost nothing against gob when propaganda*1 does almost everything.
Plus plague is black, requires that you have B available, with only 9 black sources. As I told, I can't rely on my splash colours.
Plus propaganda helps against zoo, against taiga, against Dragon Stompy (but actually I'm not sure I'm siding them in because I already have EE, jitte and harness to enter against 3*standstill, 3*conclave, 4*stifle, mmh why not...).

I had a look to Voroshstill and I don't see how you can lose against that. Stifle is absolutely broken against it, as well as aether vial. They have absolutely no draw engine, since their standstill will probably be unplayable. Deed will probably be very difficult to play since they don't play any basics except island. The main threat of the list is crucible, only *2 and requires 3 sorcery manas which would allow you to daze quite easily. And even with it you have often enough flying men to finish the game. I played a lot against Ugb standstill decks and it has always been a very positive MU. Uw is more difficult because they usually have a safe mana base. And Ugb control decks without standstill (like it's the fear, but better usually because without white) are also a bit more difficult (but not much because I can still control their mana base) because they play good draw engines (intuition and Fact).

I personally think that one plauge does a lot. Mogg Fanatic, Lackey, Matron, played Incinerators and SCG tokens B-gone. For 2B and a card, we just eliminated a very large part of their deck, even though one plague's not an auto-win, we are in a good position. I think I've skipped the part where you told this about splashing colors. Apologies.

Hmm, was it VoroshStill? Was it the Fear? I really don't know. I'm pretty new to the deck, and D_I_F's a skilled player. And as far as I recall, I drew 1 stifle, 2 ports and 1 wasteland. The mana denial strategy wasn't really prevalent those games. Gilded Drake was pretty awesome in that matchup. Stealing their Psychatog is pretty neat. Also because you dump a lot of cards in your graveyard (counterspells, standstills, wastes, fetches, not to mention all your dudes which get destroyed), have you considered one or maybe two psychatogs in the mainboard? You still splash a color, that's right, but I haven't had problems with my mana base so far. Only thing I experienced was misreading a fetch so I thought it was a Tropical Island xD

[Maveric78f]

I've been a bit strong when I said that plague*1 did almost nothing but the truth is there. Usually, I have 10- life when I have 3 manas. Playing plague makes me lose 1 turn which may be crucial just no to die (still warchief, ringleader and pilly in play, meaning 6 dmg). Propaganda means only 1 creature at a time, meaning 2 lifes at most and prevents them from playing/porting our lands etc... You have 2 ways to win against gob : jitte and mana denial (even on game 1). If you have stifle, just dont play a turn1 vial. Force/daze their vials and lackey as long as you can't block. When gob can't cheat with mana, it can't take advantage of its CA. When you stuck them @2 lands, it's even easier. It's difficult but not impossible. Well, anyway the deck was built when gob was at its worst, and my only match against gob in tourney was 2-0 against a very good gob player.

Psychatog is not good in legacy. Tarmogoyf and Stalker are by far superior. In France, we have more and more Togless togs, meaning that tog is not even kept in its dedicated deck.

[Mirrislegend]

How's Guilded Drake working out? How often do you find yourself wishing it was an Epochrasite, or any other specific creature?

[Maveric78f]

First, it had to be blue at some point because I was missing blue cards. Now that I play rushing river it's not that much needed. Gilded Drake is not a definite slot. It's not often good, but when it is it's game breaking. It has for property to solve a lot of the weaknesses of the deck (which cannot deal with big creatures nor remove easily bridges of ichorid in game 1). It's quite synergic with the deck that packs jitte/rushing river/serendib efreets. Epochrasite would be synergic too, would be more rarely dead but would never be as game breaker as gilded drake is.

About propaganda vs plague, I forgot something very important, against ichorid propaganda in play = gg.

[Willoe]

About propaganda vs plague, I forgot something very important, against ichorid propaganda in play = gg.

You've now convinced me. Propaganda > Engineered Plague.

I'd like to test out Epochrasite, but not only in place of Gilded Drake. Against control, he comes back for more, and even with Humility in play (if I am correct), he's still 4/4 when he enters play three turns later after he's been eliminated by a factory.

Also, he's incredibly easy to support when harcasted - even though that would suck, but as an emergency plan - due to the double colorless. In fact, some artifact creatures would really do, except of dying to grip :/ And no, I'm not thinking about that damn dreadnought. In this deck, I don't think it would be any good.

Looking for an evasive creature. You said we couldn't afford to splash colors, so will a card like Nihilith be complete garbage? An evasive 5 turn clock that can't be blocked by goyfs, I think he's might playable with all those lands going into the opponent's graveayard, but who knows?

EDIT: Hmm, Shriekmaw might just be better, still.

[Mirrislegend]

Whoa, I just realized something about this deck. It's running black and no Thoughtseize! What gives?

Also, that's not many creatures for 3 Jittes. I can understand why 3 Jittes, but how often do you get stuck with a Jitte and nothing to wield it?

And is 4x Port AND 4x Wasteland really worth it? Just seems to stick with you with fewer good spells. Sans both Port and Wasteland, you'd be able to support Spell Snare, Thoughtseize, and Epochrasite, who would also fully justify Jitte.

[Willoe]

There is a couple of strategies within this deck that really makes it awesome (because it is):

-Savage mana denial. This rocks. Keeping off the opponent a color can i.e. make him sit with a lot of dead cards in hand. I'm talking decks with goyf splash and so on. By killing this strategy, the deck becomes mediocre, and I favor uncounterable resource denial instead of conditional counters. Oh, and check how much life we lose in the deck. Force of Will, Bob which can accidently flip FoW over, fetches and Serendib Efreet. We don't want anymore life loss, I think. This makes mini-tendrils lethal, and we don't want that.

-Kind-of invulnerability to Counterbalance. With only 8 slots in the 1 cc slot (stifle and vial), countertop combo does kind of nothing to us as a vial should be in the opening hand when fighting NQG. Adding eight more 1cc slots will not make that better. And if Counterbalance becomes annoying, you can always get rid of it with Rushing River. That will almost never be hit by it.

-Standstill in the maindeck as our draw source. When you play this, you often win games. It's as good in this deck as it is in landstill. With Vial, you've basically won.

Maverick might answer these questions the best as I just started testing the deck.

I've not tested against Dragon Stompy yet, but is this deck's only answer to the moonman, and even more, the moon itself, Jitte, Vial and the basic island, which can be fetched by (with the list I run) 7 different sources? Maverick, it's your turn now

[Mental]

Whoa, I just realized something about this deck. It's running black and no Thoughtseize! What gives?

Also, that's not many creatures for 3 Jittes. I can understand why 3 Jittes, but how often do you get stuck with a Jitte and nothing to wield it?

And is 4x Port AND 4x Wasteland really worth it? Just seems to stick with you with fewer good spells. Sans both Port and Wasteland, you'd be able to support Spell Snare, Thoughtseize, and Epochrasite, who would also fully justify Jitte.

I assume there's no Thoughtseize because T1 Thoughtseize forces you to tap out, leaving no mana open for Stifle. Thoughtseize, while objectively strong, doesn't complement this decks gameplan.

[Willoe]

I assume there's no Thoughtseize because T1 Thoughtseize forces you to tap out, leaving no mana open for Stifle. Thoughtseize, while objectively strong, doesn't complement this decks gameplan.

Forgot about that reason too :P Thanks :)

[Maveric78f]

You're both right about thoughtseize.

I've not tested against Dragon Stompy yet, but is this deck's only answer to the moonman, and even more, the moon itself, Jitte, Vial and the basic island, which can be fetched by (with the list I run) 7 different sources? Maverick, it's your turn now

DS, very positive MU (10+ matches against a very good player and more than 80% win, which means 90% match wins, when I was not playing rushing river):
- vial owns everything from trinisphere, chalice to moon effects
- the DS player doesn't know what is necessary to play: first turn moon effect, trinisphere or moon effect (I won a lot of games by wasting the ancient tomb after a first turn trinisphere).
- I know what is necessary to counterspell (FoW and Daze are really good here)
- serendib efreet is better than rakdos when you have mana denial (because you prevent your opponent from reaching hellbent).
- I don't need more than 1 island or 1 vial to beat DS.
- after SB, jitte*2, EE*2 and mind harness*3 are all very strong instead of standstill*3, manlands*2 and stifles*2 (stifle mana deny chrome mox but you can change them by propaganda, which will make the hellbent more difficult)

[Isamaru]

Why dont you just give up on Gilded-Drake-in-the-wrong-deck and focus more on those Mind Harnesses themselves? They steal the most important targets in the format, so just play 4x SB.

[Willoe]

But we need some dudes to actually benefit from Æther Vial. What about Epochrasite?

[Maveric78f]

Why dont you just give up on Gilded-Drake-in-the-wrong-deck and focus more on those Mind Harnesses themselves? They steal the most important targets in the format, so just play 4x SB.

PB with Dreadnought of a lot of decks, Stalker of a lot of decks, reanimator targets (or Akroma in Ichorid for instance), exalted angel and Magus of the tabernacle of Angel Stax, manlands with vial (for mana denial purpose), Eternal Dragon of Landstill, Dark Confidant sometimes and probably others...

Plus, I don't see why this would be the "wrong deck".

[Maveric78f]

Up to say that I included the brainstorms finally and that I won the monthly tourney at our local shop in Paris (46 players) with this list :
// Lands
2 [UL] Faerie Conclave
2 [ON] Flooded Strand
2 [B] Island (2)
4 [ON] Polluted Delta
4 [MM] Rishadan Port
2 [R] Tropical Island
2 [A] Underground Sea
4 [TE] Wasteland

// Creatures
4 [RAV] Dark Confidant
2 [US] Gilded Drake
4 [R] Serendib Efreet
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf

// Spells
4 [DS] AEther Vial
4 [MM] Brainstorm
4 [NE] Daze
4 [AL] Force of Will
1 [PS] Rushing River
3 [OD] Standstill
4 [SC] Stifle

// Sideboard
SB: 2 [PS] Rushing River
SB: 2 [FD] Engineered Explosives
SB: 2 [MI] Mind Harness
SB: 3 [TE] Propaganda
SB: 4 [CH] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 2 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte

I played pox (2-0), reanimator (2-1), burn (2-1), Faerie Stompy (2-1), Eternal Garden (2-1) and Enchantress in final (we decided to split but I won the game we did for fun 2-0). I'll come back soon with a more detailed report.

I insist on the fact that I played only 3 tourneys with this deck. The first I did 3/15, the second I did 3/50 and I finished 1/46 in the third, which was today. It looks like quite a good deck isn't it? Why noone gets interested in it?

Edit : the detailed report

1st myself with Random Fish 5-1-0 (now that I play BS, I can't name it nocantrip anymore)
2eme Joris aka Banzaï with Enchantress 5-1-0
3eme ??? 5-0-1
4eme Raphaël aka Raphy with Thresh (the one that finished 1st in the last tourney but with Tarmos instead of Werebears) 5-0-1

First round against M. Bye with pox. Actually not exactly bye because my opponent appeared too late to play the game but we still did it for the fun. He plays pox but I'm the one who controls the mana base twice and I win 2-0.

2-0
1-0-0

Second round against reanimator by Marc.
Game 1, turn 1, he plays a swamp and passes. Turn 2 cephalid coliseum careful study, I have no counterspell and he discards bogardan hellkite. No counterspell, only stifle. I wait 1 turn to play confidant because if I did I would not be able to stifle the Hellkite coming into play effect. He plays exhume on the following turn and I stifle the CIP trigger in order to earn the time to find either gilded drake or rushing river. I'll play confidant the turn after but I'll never find my solution.

SB: -4*stifle, -4*serendib, +4*tormod, +2*rushing river, +2*mind harness

Game 2 and 3. I find tormod quite easily in both games. As a defense, he's got only 2 stifles from the SB. I mean no counterspell, no discard, no needle. I have FoW back up in both games. Quite easy finally.

2-1
2-0-0

Third round against burn by Adrien.
Game 1 is epic. I don't know what plays my opponent and I have a very bad start against burn. I have 2 wastelands, no creature in hand (except maybe gilded drake), rushing river, ... I'm at 7 while I still have no creature. But I find tarmogoyf! I play it, it's 4/5 and he's at 16 because of one rift. I wasted a barbarian ring as he did not have threshold yet but he played a second one as he's got threshold. He's at 12 when he plays a 3dmg spell. And tries to finish me off with a Fireblast which I force. He now has only 1 mountain and 1 barbarian ring. I waste the ring which he sacs in resp. I'm at 1. I have FoW in hand and I topdeck a stifle. He's got a card in hand and a mountain into play. He's at 8 and he topdecks a fanatic that he directly sacs (which was a huge misplay), which I stifle. Nice topdeck. Then I draw a rishadan port which basically means GG.

SB : -2 gilded drake -1 rushing river +2 jitte +1mind harness (nothing better unfortunately...)

The second game starts better for me. But he plays a price of progress which forced me to waste one of my lands. Then he plays a second price of progress as I'm already quite low for 4 dmg. I make the mistake to force it (removing daze) instead of dazing it. Even if the spell would not have been countered I would have lost only 2 life. The story says that he REBs my Force and that I lose quite fast after that as he's at 14. I assume if my mistake had no influence on the game result.

The third game starts very fine. He does not play much things as I control his mana base with rishdan port. I have vial@2 and three lands into play and a third in hand with FoW back up, I play brainstorm and I find a confidant and a jitte. As I have already a force in hand and I'll be full tap after rishadaning I put back FoW and stifle on the top. Yeah FoW for my confidant. I understand that before vialing my confidant but I judge that I have enough life to endorse it. Actually it's not going to be true. Because I use my stifle to deal with a suspend bolt with gets REB in return. And finally I have to reveal twice as I'm at 5 life. Then when I reach 7 life, I reveal a FoW, but the game is already over and my mistake had no influence in the result finally. I've been to confidant and forgot to think 1 turn ahead.

Once more I win the burn MU quite miraculously.

2-1
3-0-0

Round 4 against Dorian aka Hadès with Faerie Stompy, which is a very good MU for the deck in theory.

Game 1. I counterspell 2 SoFI and I have nothing relevant to control his mana base, The third is played on the 5th turn and I won't recover.

SB : -4 stifle -2 brainstorm +2 rushing river +2 EE +2 jitte

Game 2. I have quite quickly tarmo 5/6 and I control completely his mana base. Four swings for the win.

Game 3. I remember it quite fast too. I play a confidant that hits me a bit ut that provides me certainly a CA that helps me to control. I finish @9.

2-1
4-0-0

Round 5 against Patrick with Eternal Garden.
Game 1. I have counterspells to prevent him from finding his recursion, but I don't remember to have to do anything. I control his manlands and I have a quite fast win.

SB : -2 gilded drake, -2 standstill, -4 daze, +2 EE, +2 rushing river, +4 tormod's crypt

Game 2. Although he played around daze on game 1, he does not do it anymore in game 2. He's definitely a good player. I touch some FoWs but he's got too many outs and I can't do anything.

Game 3. He has 3 crop rotations in the first turns which enables him to make some tricks, including one that makes me play FoW. All these crop rotation have strongly weakened his mana baseand he's quite a lot under pressure with a big goyf 4/5 and and a serendib. He intuitions on creuset*3. I tormod after the resolution of the spell. He plays crucible, but he has no lands to play. The turn after, as I played standstill (and he's at 8), he intuitions for maze*2+tabernacle which sacs standstill and makes goyf 5/6, meaning he's dead in 1 turn if I find a solution to maze. The standstill gives me stifle and rishadan port. Then, I topdeck at my turn wasteland. I have the choice...

2-1
5-0-0

Round 6 against Joris aka Banzaï with Enchantress. I don't know exactly but I consider the MU as difficult and I decide to accept the split (which I hate to do). I am punished in the way that we do the game for the fun and I encounter absolutely no problem, two times by controling the mana base. The first game I have 4 rishadan port when he's got only a land into play (after wasteland and stifles). The second one I don't have mana denial but he's got oly 3 lands with 2 wild groth and I force a argothian. Then I vial confidant play EE@1 which I sac. It was clearly the good play becasue I had 3 daze in hand. I will play a second confidant and he can't pay the upkeep of an early played sacred mesa, even if he tried to keep it a bit too long to my mind. I daze 1*elephant grass (which could be a problem since I had 2 confidants in play, I could die by myself), then 1 suffocation and finally 1 replenish.

0-0 (2-0 actually)
5-0-1 (6-0-0 actually)

I'm still first because my opponents performed quite well.

++ :
+ first
+ personal wealth ^^

-- :
- 3 tourneys with this deck, each time in the top3. But except me, nobody plays it. I don't understand...

[Willoe]

Nice report, congrats with the finishes!

- 3 tourneys with this deck, each time in the top3. But except me, nobody plays it. I don't understand...

I would if I could, but since I can't figure out how to play the deck properly, I don't want to buy the parts before I own the deck in the first place Plus I'm pretty broke (hey, it's summer?), but as well I encourage people to play it. It is really, really good. Nuff said.

EDIT: Random Fish as a deck name blows. Seriously. Hmm, can't think of anything good right now, but how about something that relates to the mana denial strategy? Wasted Life?

[Maveric78f]

Nice report, congrats with the finishes!



I would if I could, but since I can't figure out how to play the deck properly, I don't want to buy the parts before I own the deck in the first place Plus I'm pretty broke (hey, it's summer?), but as well I encourage people to play it. It is really, really good. Nuff said.

EDIT: Random Fish as a deck name blows. Seriously. Hmm, can't think of anything good right now, but how about something that relates to the mana denial strategy? Wasted Life?

I'll teach you by msn then. You're right, the deck is very expensive (more than 500€), even if I reduced the number of bilands to 4 but the cards are very commonly used in legacy, so it's like an investment.

I don't like wasted life because Life is already ambiguous in legacy, between life combo and life from the loam.

Standstill/mana denial/good creatures. I don't know which name to give to that...

[Isamaru]

What do you mean 'nobody plays the deck'? Everyone plays this deck... 4x Tarmogoyf 4x Dark Confidant 4x Brainstorm 4x Force of Will 4x Daze 4x Stifle 4x Wasteland 4x Aether Vial... This is black splash threshold without Ponder.

[Willoe]

What do you mean 'nobody plays the deck'? Everyone plays this deck... 4x Tarmogoyf 4x Dark Confidant 4x Brainstorm 4x Force of Will 4x Daze 4x Stifle 4x Wasteland 4x Aether Vial... This is black splash threshold without Ponder.

They do, but not in this combination. This deck is definitely not black thresh, I see a LOT of differences. It's basically the same as saying ITF is Landstill. Then why do they get two seperate threads? Because they are different. This deck is pretty unique, and just because it only runs legacy staples, that doesn't mean it isn't original or unique. Because it is.