[Deck] The Truffle Shuffle

[Daeniel]

Your list is ok, though I would add some finishers that could be recurred without the means of a stronghold in play.
I won a small tournament (19 players) a couple of weeks ago, and I must say that against a lot of deck Gigapede really shines; the only real answer that can eliminate him is Extirpate once it hits the yard, but as you can figure this is not something that every deck can do.

I'd chosen to run a split of 2 Vindicate/2 Putrefy, and in 3 occasion it "saved" me from Extirpate and Meddling Mage. Ok, it's not a radical change, but...

And a Haunting Echoes could also be useful as an alternative finisher; anyway, here's the list that I've used:

// Lands
4 Scrubland
3 Bayou
2 Savannah
2 Polluted Delta
3 Windswept Heath
3 Swamp
2 Plains
2 Forest
// Creatures
3 Wall of Blossoms
1 Grave-Shell Scarab
2 Gigapede
1 Eternal Dragon
2 Eternal Witness
2 Loxodon Hierarch
// Spells
3 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Haunting Echoes
2 Putrefy
2 Vindicate
1 Crime // Punishment
3 Pernicious Deed
4 Damnation
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Duress

I liked playing this deck, against 70% of the filed here is amazing
Only one thing; there is some hope to beat a Landstill ever? The only game that I lost badly was one against a very solid build of UWR Landstill, and.. well.. I was trying to figure out some answer. Proposition?

[CB4SN13]

Hey, I'm new to the forum, but has been checking things out for a while now because something about legacy just really appeal to me. Just wanted to say I absolutely love playing this deck. I love the versatility of cards like Pernicious Deed and Vindicate, not the mention the unkillable Gigapede.

That said, I just have a couple questions. Sorry in advance if these are discussed already. There were just too many pages of posts for me to read the whole thing.

1. Why is Duress played over Thoughtseize?
Though you lose two life, Thoughtseize actually has a use when playing Goblins. The two life seems irrelevant when you play against control and combo, and I think it helps out on the Goblin MU. Against other forms of aggro, the amount of creature removal this deck has (not to mention the Hierarchs), 2 life doesn't seem like a big deal, especially if when thoughtseize can count as creature removal by getting rid of that Tarmogoyf/Troll Ascetic/Mongoose before it hits the board.

2. Should Haunting Echoes be used as a finisher?
It seems to be really slow, and the deck already has major problems finishing the match on time. Decking an opponent doesn't seem like a good strategy, and if Echoes is used to put them out of the game, you still need to find a creature to finish the opponent off.

3. Hymn to Tourach vs. Castigate?
I find that Hymn's randomness can be a problem sometimes. Even though it takes two cards, sometimes, it gets the wrong two cards. Also, Castigate removes the card from the game, which is very useful. Should Hymn be used in a aggro intensive meta, while Castigate be used in other metas? (are their usage meta dependent?)

[Jak]

1. Why is Duress played over Thoughtseize?
Though you lose two life, Thoughtseize actually has a use when playing Goblins. The two life seems irrelevant when you play against control and combo, and I think it helps out on the Goblin MU. Against other forms of aggro, the amount of creature removal this deck has (not to mention the Hierarchs), 2 life doesn't seem like a big deal, especially if when thoughtseize can count as creature removal by getting rid of that Tarmogoyf/Troll Ascetic/Mongoose before it hits the board.

2. Should Haunting Echoes be used as a finisher?
It seems to be really slow, and the deck already has major problems finishing the match on time. Decking an opponent doesn't seem like a good strategy, and if Echoes is used to put them out of the game, you still need to find a creature to finish the opponent off.

3. Hymn to Tourach vs. Castigate?
I find that Hymn's randomness can be a problem sometimes. Even though it takes two cards, sometimes, it gets the wrong two cards. Also, Castigate removes the card from the game, which is very useful. Should Hymn be used in a aggro intensive meta, while Castigate be used in other metas? (are their usage meta dependent?)

1) Thoughtseize > Duress

2) Yes, it should be a win con. It is much faster than Gigapede and it can be used early to just take out anything that scares you.

3) Hymn. It is Card Advantage and it just swings games in your favor.

[Team-Hero]

Haunting Echoes WINS games. It might not totally wreck the opponent's deck, but if you play it correctly it helps you win the game much easier. What I do is rip almost every useful spell my opponent has from his library and keep all the non-basic lands and useless spells in his library. Therefor, when my opponent draws a card, chances are it's not the card he needed (ie: land, duress, thoughtseize, dark ritual, etc.)

[Joon]

// Deck file for Magic Workstation (http://www.magicworkstation.com)

// Lands
4 [B] Bayou
2 [B] Savannah
2 [B] Scrubland
2 [IN] Forest (1)
4 [ON] Windswept Heath
4 [ON] Bloodstained Mire
3 [MI] Swamp (2)
2 [MI] Plains (1)
1 [SH] Volrath's Stronghold

// Creatures
2 [ON] Gigapede
4 [FD] Eternal Witness
3 [SC] Eternal Dragon

// Spells
3 [AP] Pernicious Deed
3 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
4 [IA] Swords to Plowshares
3 [AP] Vindicate
2 [PLC] Damnation
4 [TE] Diabolic Edict
3 [PLC] Extirpate
3 [FUT] Glittering Wish
2 [DIS] Crime/Punishment

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [AP] Pernicious Deed
SB: 1 [AP] Vindicate
SB: 1 [DIS] Crime/Punishment
SB: 4 [PS] Orim's Chant
SB: 2 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 1 [RAV] Loxodon Hierarch
SB: 4 [US] Duress
SB: 1 [GP] Castigate


This is my actual list. I'm not sold at the manabase, but with the rest of the deck I'm pretty satisfied. Glittering Wish adds flexibility, and Crime/Punishment is pretty neat, too. I accept the autoloss against Combo G1, and Postboard I try to fight him with Playset Chant & Duress, but I guess this deck's worst Matchup will always stay Combo.dec.
Extirpate is > Echoes imo, because Extirpate is more nimble, has split second and costs only one mana, so it solves the problem of cards that are nasty to get rid off now. Against many decks it is just the same if you extirpate one crucial thing (Counterbalance/Goyf/etc.) as if you play Echoes Turn 13 or so.

[diffy]

Extirpate is > Echoes imo, because Extirpate is more nimble, has split second and costs only one mana, so it solves the problem of cards that are nasty to get rid off now. Against many decks it is just the same if you extirpate one crucial thing (Counterbalance/Goyf/etc.) as if you play Echoes Turn 13 or so.

The thing is that if Haunting Echoes resolves, you basically win the game after a short periode of time. You must see it as finisher.
If Extirpate resolves, you now don't have to deal with the remaining 3- copies of a certain threat your opponent has. This certainly isn't a bad effect but you have to keep in mind that almost all decks have multiple ways to victory (therefore not that affected by Extirpate) and that those who are really hurt by it are good matchups (aggro-control hates to loose its Goyfs).
Another problem I have with Extirpate mainboard is that it is Card Disadvantage (CDA) nearly all the time. Especially this deck without a 'hard' way to create Card Advantage (CA) won't be able to afford the loss of a card in hand for a future effect. This leads me to my final issue with Extirpate: it doesn't affect the board state now making it quite mediocre for its effect - its neither a strong enough effect for a finisher nor versatile enough for a random goodness slot.
Long story short: don't play them main - they're good for the board though (Life from the Loam, Genesis, Aggro Control, Control mirror etc.).

On another note, Shriekmaw should be an auto-include as at least a 2off in this deck in my opinion: a wincondition that isn't dead early on should be what this deck was looking for. Note also the great synergy with Volrath's Stronghold.

On another note, wouldn't a X/1 split of Engineered Explosives/CrimePunishment be more optimal than playing X+1 Crime Punishments? I see how C/P doubles as a wincondition, but 5 mana is quite a lot and the wincondition part relies heaviliy on your opponent. Also, most of the time you'll be casting it as removal anyways - where Engineered Explosives has the great advantage of being castable over two turns which makes the Explosives castable earlier and which will make you walk into Daze or other tempo cards (land destruction, Fire/Ice on your lands etc.) less often. Another strong point of Engineered Explosives is that you can cast it proactively so that you can use your mana for other stuff until you need the Explosives - and then you'll only have to pay 2 instead of 2+X. Also, Engineered Explosives are a little easier on the colors if you happen to get screwed a little.

Also, if you're going to play Diabolic Edict, why not split it X/1 with Chainer's Edict: it's the same effect most of the time because you have very little to do in your opponents turn and in the lategame the flashback comes in handy.

Lastly, I urge everyone to split their 'untargetable and reccurable' winconditions: in matchups like the control mirror it just sucks to loose all your good winconditions to a single Extirpate on Gigapede.

Edit: A piece of tech for the combo matchup, especially if you're playing Glittering Wish: Gaddock Teeg needs to be killed/bounced by the combo-player prior to him wining most of the time which will buy you some precious time in which you can go beatdown (where Teeg's 2/2-body helps too) and find your other hate.

[Joon]

Wow, that's a large answer. Quotathon.

The thing is that if Haunting Echoes resolves, you basically win the game after a short periode of time. You must see it as finisher.
If Extirpate resolves, you now don't have to deal with the remaining 3- copies of a certain threat your opponent has.

Hm, I think all your points are valid so I'll move the Extirpates to the Side. The only question is now, what cards to cut in the Sideboard. Duress maybe?
And do you have any ideas, how to use the new three slots except for 1-2 Haunting Echoes?

On another note, Shriekmaw should be an auto-include as at least a 2off in this deck in my opinion: a wincondition that isn't dead early on should be what this deck was looking for. Note also the great synergy with Volrath's Stronghold.

Nice idea. Shriekmaw will be tested.

On another note, wouldn't a X/1 split of Engineered Explosives/CrimePunishment be more optimal than playing X+1 Crime Punishments?

Maybe. Got to test that. Both handle Tokens Turn 2, but C/P is a lot more colored mana intensive and EE is pretty good as you wrote.

Also, if you're going to play Diabolic Edict, why not split it X/1 with Chainer's Edict: it's the same effect most of the time because you have very little to do in your opponents turn and in the lategame the flashback comes in handy.

I guess a 3/2 Split will be tested by myself, as the Flashback can become quite nice.

Lastly, I urge everyone to split their 'untargetable and reccurable' winconditions: in matchups like the control mirror it just sucks to loose all your good winconditions to a single Extirpate on Gigapede.

Then a split of 1/1 'pede and Graveshell-Scarab will be tested. I never thought about that.

Edit: A piece of tech for the combo matchup, especially if you're playing Glittering Wish: Gaddock Teeg needs to be killed/bounced by the combo-player prior to him wining most of the time which will buy you some precious time in which you can go beatdown (where Teeg's 2/2-body helps too) and find your other hate.

Yeah, seems a pretty good idea.

Here's my new list:

// Deck file for Magic Workstation (http://www.magicworkstation.com)

// Lands
4 [B] Bayou
2 [B] Savannah
2 [B] Scrubland
2 [IN] Forest (1)
4 [ON] Windswept Heath
4 [ON] Bloodstained Mire
3 [MI] Swamp (2)
2 [MI] Plains (1)
1 [SH] Volrath's Stronghold

// Creatures
1 [ON] Gigapede
4 [FD] Eternal Witness
3 [SC] Eternal Dragon
1 [RAV] Grave-Shell Scarab
4 [LRW] Shriekmaw

// Spells
3 [AP] Pernicious Deed
3 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
4 [IA] Swords to Plowshares
3 [AP] Vindicate
2 [PLC] Damnation
2 [TE] Diabolic Edict
3 [FUT] Glittering Wish
2 [DIS] Crime/Punishment
1 [OD] Haunting Echoes
1 [TO] Chainer's Edict

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [AP] Pernicious Deed
SB: 1 [AP] Vindicate
SB: 1 [DIS] Crime/Punishment
SB: 4 [PS] Orim's Chant
SB: 2 [TSP] Krosan Grip

Unfortunately 61 cards, but I really do not know what to cut
There are only 3 Edicts, only 1 Echoes...
The only thing that could get cut are the Damnations. Or not? I mean, I have 6 Deeds, 6 Vindicate, Swords, Maw, Edicts and C/P. Seems a bit like overkill.

[Yawgmoth]

Has anyone else tried Murmuring Bosk as a one-of? Being able to fetch it the turn you don't need the extra mana has been amazing for me.

Unfortunately I don't own Damnations and I am forced to play with Wraith. Having a need for double colors of everything, Murmuring Bosk has helped a lot in getting to all three quickly.

Other neglected lands to look at for this deck include:
Nantuko Monastery (I run 2)
Horizon Canopy (currently 0)

[Team-Hero]

Instead of 4 Shriekmaw, why not run 3 instead and 1 Masked Admirers? Your running enough creatures to take advantage of the recurring state of the Admirers.

[diffy]

Instead of 4 Shriekmaw, why not run 3 instead and 1 Masked Admirers? Your running enough creatures to take advantage of the recurring state of the Admirers.

I don't think that this is a good idea: Masked Admirers is a weak wincondition (only 3 power) that, unlike Gigapede or Grave-Shell Scarab, doesn't evade Swords to Plowshares and that does nothing but beat (unlike other options like Loxodon Hierarch or Shriekmaw). I don't think that you have quite enough creatures to make the 'draw a card' worth it and even then the Admirers are just a bad/clunky/manaintensive drawengine.
In conclusion: you either want resistant and quick winconditions or guys that have an effect to change the board state now.

Neglected lands to look at for this deck include:
Nantuko Monastery
Horizon Canopy
Murmuring Bosk

I've tried Horizon Canopy in the past to have something for those lategame manafloods, but the 'draw a card' effect was just not strong enough to counterbalance the life loss that accumulates quite a lot if you have it early. Also, you already have Sensei's Divining Top for lategame card quality so that even in the lategame, I think you would rather have a fetchie than an Horizon Canopy.

Murmuring Bosk could be quite cool as a 1off - you'd need to implement more green fetchies though which is not the direction to go in my opinion: you really want to fetch a basic Swamp early to have removal/Deed mana under Wastelands or Blood Moon.

Nantuko Monastery is something I didn't think of up to now - mainly because I don't like it in 4c Landstill - but it could be quite good as a 1off: you don't want to draw it in the early-game ever but in the mid-lategame this could be amazing as a blocker/finisher and so I'd say that a singleton is enough as this deck does remain quite color intensive.

Here's my new list: unfortunately 61 cards, but I really do not know what to cut.

First of all, I'd cut down on a Shriekmaw. For sure he's amazing once you’ve reached 5 mana, but he's quite mediocre removal in the early game especially since he can't kill Dark Confidant (huge problem). For sure you have other removal to take care of creatures he can't hit but then again he's only a Terror in the early game - not that impressive. I'd run 3 to have him in the mid-late game though.

-1 Shriekmaw

Also, as mentioned in my last post, I'd split the Crime/Punishments with Engineered Explosives.

-1 Crime/Punishment
+1 Engineered Explosives

Next, I'd try to work a Nantuko Monastery into your manabase. As mentioned above it is quite a potent inclusion for the mid- to late-game. I don't quite know what to cut though: I don't have the habit to play Truffle Shuffle anymore so that I don't know how the manabase could be changed.

-1 Land
+1 Nantuko Monastery

Next up, I'd move that sideboard Pernicious Deed to the main: you always want to draw into as many Deeds as possible and you won't ever quite need to Wish for a Pernicious Deed: you can already play Crime/Punishment for a sweeper and for any other problems you have Vindicate.

+1 Pernicious Deed

I also don't know why people don't play Krosan Tusker anymore. He was awesome whenever I played him as he fixes your mana to any color (unlike Eternal Dragon) and even draws a card. Maybe he became outdated while I was away from Truffle Shuffle, if so please let me know, but I would be surprised to hear this.
Anyways, I'd consider playing him over Eternal Dragon but to keep a singleton Dragon in: he comes in quite handy in the lategame because he recurs himself.

-2 Eternal Dragon
+2 Krosan Tusker

Now, let's have a look at the wishboard. I'd always try to keep the wishboard as small as possible to not hamper your boarding strategies too much - just play the essentials and nothing else. For instance, I find that discard like Castigate or Gerrard's Verdict to be superfluous because against combo you could just as well with for a Gaddock Teeg and against control you'd rather wish for another threat like Loxodon Hierarch or
even for Teeg again (he shuts down their removal [Engineered Explosives, Wrath of God, Humility etc.] and you don't really need yours because they only have very little creatures and those are handled fine by Deed and Vindicate]).
This is how I'd build the sideboard:

1 Vindicate
1 Crime/Punishment
1 Loxodon Hierarch
1 Dueling Grounds
3 Gaddock Teeg
8 free slots (anti-combo?)

The singleton Dueling Grounds is a little piece of tech for matchups like Ichorid or Goblins - I don't know if it's necessary but it was always useful when I played it.
The 8 free slots can be anything really, but I don't feel that you need additional Krosan Grips: you already hate Artifacts and Enchantments quite well with Pernicious Deed, Crime/Punishment, Engineered Explosives and Vindicate. If you're going to stuff those slots with combo hate, I'd at least include another permanent 'speed bump' against combo, something like Glowrider will be more useful than a purely reactive card because it has a built in clock which is the most important thing against combo.

Updated List:

/// Maindeck (61 cards)

// Lands (24)
    1 Nantuko Monastery
    1 Volrath's Stronghold
   22 Others

// Mana Stability (3)
    1 Eternal Dragon
    2 Krosan Tusker

// Winconditons (3)
    1 Gigapede
    1 Grave-Shell Scarab
    1 Haunting Echoes

// Removal (21)
    4 Swords to Plowshares
    1 Chainer's Edict
    2 Diabolic Edict
    3 Shriekmaw
    3 Vindicate
    4 Pernicious Deed
    2 Damnation
    1 Crime/Punishment
    1 Engineered Explosives

// Utility (10)
    3 Sensei's Divining Top
    3 Glittering Wish
    4 Eternal Witness

/// Sideboard (15 cards)
    1 Loxodon Hierarch
    1 Vindicate
    1 Crime/Punishment
    1 Dueling Grounds
    3 Gaddock Teeg
    8 Open Slots

Now that list is 61 cards and has an amazing amount of removal. To come down to 60 cards, I'd first of all cut a Damnation: you already have a lot of sweepers so that this is the best cut in my opinion.

-1 Damnation

For your further testing, you could have an eye on whether you ever felt to have too much removal. If you happen to answer this question with 'yes' most of the time, I think that would be the best move to cut some removal (Damnation and Diabolic Edict being the first cuts) for some more utility, especially Loxodon Hierarch is pretty good because he's a good blocker and helps you stabilize via the lifegain.
Another thing to ask you in testing is if 4 Eternal Witness ever is too much: I've always found them pretty clunky as a full playset.

Edit: Found my old file, updated it.

/// Maindeck (60 cards)

// Lands (24)
    1 Volrath's Stronghold
    1 Nantuko Monastery
    3 Forest
    3 Swamp
    1 Plains
    3 Bayou
    3 Savannah
    1 Scrubland
    4 Windswept Heath
    1 Wooded Foothills
    2 Bloodstained Mire
    1 Polluted Delta

// Mana Fixers (3)
    2 Krosan Tusker
    1 Eternal Dragon

// Winconditions (3)
    1 Gigapede
    1 Grave-Shell Scarab
    1 Haunting Echoes

// Utility (11)
    3 Sensei's Divining Top
    3 Glittering Wish
    3 Eternal Witness
    2 Loxodon Hierarch

// Removal (19)
    4 Swords to Plowshares
    3 Shriekmaw
    2 Chainer's Edict
    3 Vindicate
    4 Pernicious Deed
    1 Crime/Punishment
    1 Engineered Explosives
    1 Damnation

/// Sideboard (15 cards)
    1 Vindicate
    1 Loxodon Hierarch
    1 Dueling Grounds
    2 Gaddock Teeg
    2 Glowrider
    4 Thoughtseize
    4 Planar Void

The only thing that wasn't explained yet is the lack of a sweeper in the Wishboard: I just don't feel that it is necessary because you already have Dueling Grounds to stall hordes. Everything but hordes is handled by your Mainboard sweepers or Vindicate/Loxodon Hierarch from the Wishboard: I just try to keep the Wishboard as compact as possible in order to have more 'real' boarding options.
The deck plays out nicely, I just don't see a reason to play this over a version with some 'hard' card advantage like Gifts Rock because that has a better lategame and doesn't risk running out of gas.

[Holo_rip]

hello there !
first, sorry for necroing this thread once again but i really think this deck deserve to stay at the top page of the established decks forum.
it have a very good matchup againt threshold, landstill and the like. Others matchup can be tought, but still winnable via glitttering wish.

I'd like to have some peace of advice for some particular matchup :
- aggro loam
- survival

They tend to crush me, and i haven't been able to fixe it (in fact, the one i really wory about is the aggro loam matchup).

first, my list :

land : 23
2 bayou
2 scrubland
1 savannah
4 swamp
3 forest
3 plains
1 volrath's stronghold
1 nantuko monastery

creature : 10
4 sakura-tribe elder
2 loxodon hierarch
2 shriekmaw
1 gigapede
1 grave-shell scarab

spells : 27
4 STP
4 Thoughtseize
4 duress
3 vindicate
3 pernicious deed
2 crime/punishment
1 hauting echoes
3 glittering wish
3 SDT

SB :
2 loxodon hierarch
1 vindicate
1 crime/punishment
1 dueling ground
2 gaddock teeg
4 leyline of the void
4 chalice of the void


i'm going to play this list in a tournament this week, and next week, so i would like some advice about how to play againt survival/aggro loam. What i am really wory about is how to stabilise before/after they've played a devastating dream, cause they tend to always have more land than me. About survival, i can't see much to do (others than crime the genesis and/or squee to avoid reccuring things)

my meta will consist of :
several thresh
several landstill
some combo (TES/belcher...)
maybe gob
1/2 ichorid
MBA/MBC
aggro loam
survival
1 life.Deck
and random thing

regard,
Holo.

[diffy]

Truffle Shuffle 2k8

If you want to beat Survival & Aggro Loam, you need more of a clock - you can't just control their stuff eternally as they have too strong engines, you therefore have to use your removal more as tempo tools than as control tools.
Some thoughts regarding your list:

• I'm no fan of excessive discard packages: they are bad topdecks and don't affect the board or your opponent's life total - I'd at least cut the bad Duresses (they're dead or at least sub-optimal rather often) and move them to the board if your meta demands it.
  
  • -4 Duress
• Vindicate and Crime/Punishment are very clunky cards- both are often too slow against many decks (especially C/P which is like a worse Explosives - same cost but you have to pay it all at once). I'd cut any number of them for quicker and more flexible removal, especially Shriekmaw is an awesome card as it acts as removal early and as very fine wincondition later.
  
  • -1 Vindicate
  • -1 Crime/Punishment
  • +1 Shriekmaw
  • +1 Chainer's Edict (additional lategame power)
• Your manabase also seems a bit off: you don't need that many basic Plains as your main colours are black and green. Also, your list doesn't play any fetches (and only 17/23 lands so I assume that the rest are fetches). Here's how I'd adjust the manabase:
  
  • -1 Plains
  • -1 Swamp
  • +2 Nantuko Monastery (additional strong winconditions is never bad)
  • +3 Windswept Heath (green mana is rather essential as you can get the other basics via STE/VE under Blood Moon too)
  • +1 Polluted Delta
  • +2 Bloodstained Mire
• As said earlier, you also need more of a clock - there's about no excuse not to play Tarmogoyf in this list, the anti-synergy with Deed doesn't count as when you're popping a Deed, you're already in that bad a situation (or in that good a situation after the Deed) that it doesn't matter if you trade 2-N or 1-N. In any other situation, Goyf is just great: a wall and a finisher combined in one card.
  
  • +4 Tarmogoyf
• Kitchen Finks > Loxodon Hierarch because of curve reasons - the 1 additional power close to never makes a difference as both don't kill a Tarmogoyf but about everything else. Also, Kitchen Finks have great synergy with other strong cards such as Cabal Therapy which should be considered for the deck.
  
  • -2 Loxodon Hierarch
  • +2 Kitchen Finks
  • Sideboard: -1 Loxodon Hierarch
  • Sideboard: +1 Kitchen Finks (this change being even more important than the maindeck change as you can now actually wish for the lifegain guy on turn2 and play him on turn3 rather than having to wait another turn if you play Hierarch)
• 2 SDT are enough as you also have Glittering Wish as Card Quality Engine. Top also isn't at its best in this list as you don't play that many shuffle effects to make full use of it.
  
  • -1 SDT
• Next up, you can start to get really techy by playing Veteran Explorer over STE: he's the more broken card and sometimes even acts as a mini-Moat as your opponent doesn't want to swing into it because it would warp you into the early lategame. Also, the Tempo gain will more often than not be one-sided as you're the guy with the expensive spells and because very few people actually play more than 1-2 Basics. If you play the Explorer, you'd need to include some Cabal Therapies as sac outlets into the deck though - which isn't that bad as Therapy is one of the best discard spells out there and has synergy with a great proportion of your deck (e.g. sacking a Goyf before Deed or using it with Explorers/Finks).
  
  • -4 STE
  • +4 Veteran Explorer
  • -2 Thoughtseize
  • -1 Grave-Shell Scarab (you have better winconditions in Tarmogoyf)
  • +4 Cabal Therapy
• In the sideboard you can get rid of the C/P - Deed does its job in better all the time (the random 'Crime on Genesis' occurs too rarely to warrant a slot).
  
  • Sideboard: -1 C/P
  • Sideboard: +1 Haunting Echoes (to get boarded in against Loam, Survival and other control)
• With Explorers as good acceleration in the deck, you can cut another land
  
  • -1 Plains
  • +1 Eternal Dragon - I've come to love him in Landstill, he should be great in here too: mana fixing early and another huge recurable beater late

Here's the list with the changes up to now

3 Windswept Heath
2 Polluted Delta
1 Bloodstained Mire
3 Nantuko Monastery
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Plains
2 Swamp
1 Snow-Covered Swamp
1 Snow-Covered Forest
2 Forest
2 Bayou
2 Scrubland
1 Savannah

4 Veteran Explorer
1 Eternal Dragon
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Kitchen Finks
1 Gigapede
1 Haunting Echoes
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Shriekmaw
1 Chainer's Edict
3 Pernicious Deed
2 Vindicate
1 Crime/Punishment
2 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Glittering Wish
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Thoughtseize

SB 1 Vindicate
SB 1 Pernicious Deed
SB 1 Kitchen Finks
SB 1 Dueling Grounds
SB 1 Grave-Shell Scarab (to get boarded in against Landstill)
SB 1 Haunting Echoes (also as board-in against Loam, Survival, Landstill etc.)
SB 3 Gaddock Teeg
SB 4 Leyline of the Void or Wheel of Sun and Moon
SB 2 Engineered Explosives (for the randomness and especially to have something to board in against NQG which can pose problems if they pack Needle)

Now, on to the Meta-related tuning.

• First of all, if Survival & Loam pose you a problem, you will absolutely love more Haunting Echoes in the main - it shuts down their engines and acts as wincondition in a pinch.
  
  • -1 Crime/Punishment - both Survival and Loam aren't really going to have more than 1-2 permanents on the board so that your spot removal should be enough to keep them at bay especially since the Crime side of C/P is done better by Echoes.
  • +1 Haunting Echoes
• Wheel of Sun and Moon over Leyline of the Void in the Sideboard: you don't really want to mulligan into Leyline against Aggro Loam and Wheel being slightly slower doesn't really matter than much because Aggro Loam isn't doing anything relevant until it reaches 3 mana.

So this would basically be the list I'd play in said meta:

/// Maindeck (60 cards)

// Lands (22)
    3 Windswept Heath
    2 Polluted Delta
    1 Bloodstained Mire
    3 Nantuko Monastery
    1 Volrath's Stronghold
    1 Plains
    2 Swamp
    1 Snow-Covered Swamp
    1 Snow-Covered Forest
    2 Forest
    2 Bayou
    2 Scrubland
    1 Savannah

// Mana Fixing (5)
    4 Veteran Explorer
    1 Eternal Dragon

// Winconditions (9)
    4 Tarmogoyf
    2 Kitchen Finks
    1 Gigapede
    2 Haunting Echoes

// Removal (13)
    4 Swords to Plowshares
    3 Shriekmaw
    1 Chainer's Edict
    2 Vindicate
    3 Pernicious Deed

// Card Advantage (11)
    4 Cabal Therapy
    2 Thoughtseize
    2 Sensei's Divining Top
    3 Glittering Wish

/// Sideboard (15 cards)
    1 Vindicate
    1 Pernicious Deed
    1 Kitchen Finks
    1 Dueling Grounds
    1 Grave-Shell Scarab
    1 Haunting Echoes
    3 Gaddock Teeg
    4 Wheel of Sun and Moon
    2 Engineered Explosives

I would like some advice about how to play against survival/aggro loam

Playing against Survival isn't too hard: stall until you can resolve Haunting Echoes and win. The real problem in this matchup is Genesis which creates too much card advantage on its own, smaller problems are Anger which virtually doubles his clock and makes your sorcery speed removal much worse and Survival itself because it turns every creature he has into a Tarmogoyf/Doran/whatever scary thing he has. Use you removal and your discard (t1 blind Therapy should always name Survival) to stall and try to find Echoes at any cost.
Playing against Aggro Loam is much harder because of Devastating Dreams, but not impossible. Again, Haunting Echoes is your key card to finish the game - until you hit it and the five mana, try not to overextend your board with lands (keep as many in hand as you can). I'm not sure about this one but I think that Veteran Explorers are a good insurance against Dreams too: the lands get hit first, the damage is dealt after - it would be nice if someone could clarify this though.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Tarmogoyf is often too slow for control. You're not built to support him and replace him the way aggro decks and even Threshold are. When Tarmogoyf dies or gets countered (and he's terrible against Counterbalance too), you have nothing you can do besides wait to draw another threat. This is the time that costs you rounds because you draw where you should have won.

Hence the traditional ensemble of recursive creatures- Grave-Shell, Gigapede, and Witness. Much harder for control to deal with. The structure of control is simply different than aggressive decks; it's not enough for a threat to be mana-efficient. They have to shake the board or defy death. Or failing that, ala Tusker and Witness, provide a lot of flexibility.

I'm not liking STE or Veteran Explorer either. Your tempo advantage is better gained by disrupting the opponent than on accelerating into a Hierarch or Gigapede.

Shriekmaw seems pretty good. But I think you're getting carried away with colorless sources. 12 Green sources isn't enough.

[Holo_rip]

i really agree on tarmogoyf. Even if it can be better against some archetype, this particular control deck isn't build to abuse it. Reccuring threat in the form of gigaped, eternal dragon and grave-shell scarab seem really to be better.

About STE or veteran. They're not mean to accelerate us, they are here mainly to fixe the different color. In my build y only play 5 dual land, 6 fetch, and 10 basic. It help to get the color that we need. The fact that i can help casting a huge threath turn 3 is just a bonus. Plus, STE/veteran can chump block lackey or goyf and still give us an edge, by searching more land, fixe the mana, and permit us to draw into more threat/answer.
Moreover, we're not design to end the game fast, the fact that it allow us to have more land in play say "seal the game fast", it only help us to get full control of the game by casting multiple answer/disruption and then beater.

As for colorless land, i only run two, and i don't think i'll run more. 12 green source have always been enought for me, thanks to STE/veteran, i've never been in lack of green mana (or black/white mana in fact).
Shrieckmaw is really good here cause it 1) act as removal, 2) act as a beater, 3) can sometime save our ass in the ichorid matchup.

Finally, i'll be glad to see your latest list IBA.

Regard,
Holo.

[Agent J]

Ok first of all I'm not sure this is the right place to post it. The list I'm playing is neither clearly Truffle Shuffle nor clearly Rock but I decided to put it here because it's more of a control deck.

Whatever...here is the list:

2 Plains
1 Volrath's Stronghold
3 Bloodstained Mire
2 Forest
2 Swamp
4 Windswept Heath
4 Bayou
3 Savannah
3 Scrubland

4 Kitchen Finks
3 Eternal Witness
2 Shriekmaw
1 Eternal Dragon

4 Duress
3 Thoughtseize
4 Pernicious Deed
2 Crime/Punishment
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Vindicate
1 Haunting Echoes
1 Liliana Vess

Sideboard:
4 Gaddock Teeg
4 Extirpate
3 Tsunami
3 Krosan Grip
1 Shriekmaw

Ok maybe I should add some explanations:

- I did not like Glittering Wish in testing. It's slow and besides a little flexibility it adds nothing to the. Wish for Dueling Grounds was nice sometimes but most of the time I wished for Vindicate anyway so I cut the wishes, moved the Vindicate to the main board and added another Crime/Punishment and another Kitchen Finks
- ...which brings us directly to the second issue. Kitchen Finks is simply freaking awesome IMO. It does exactly what this kind of deck needs. It can buy a lot of time and on the other hand it's still quite good on offense. It's more effective than Loxodon Hierarch, it's 2:1 against (almost) every deck without StP and it's very strong against Goblins and Threshold.
- I replaced Gigapede/Scarab with Liliana Vess. She works more or less like an hard to answer finisher and adds some felxibility. I haven't found out yet if she's worth the slot but tutoring especially for Haunting Echoes has been quite nice.
- I admit that the sideboard is still a little random...especially the Grips were often a little overkill. Maybe some Orim's Chant or Abeyance would be stronger.

Last but not least I have a small tournament report of last Saturday. It's not that representative because there were only 12 players so I'll keep it short.

1st Round vs. Black Threshold
Game 1 he's got CB + Top but it doesn't help him to protect his Goyfs and 2 Kitchen Finks take it home. Game 2 he's get's really flooded and after Deed, Witness, Deed he has no board to speak of.

2nd Round vs. Red ThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshThresh
I started with a Gameloss because I wasn't smart enough to write a correct decklist (14 SB cards) Game 1 (or should I say game 2) I Thoughtseize his Force of Will and he answers with a topdecked Mongoose. He can protect it a few turns and beats me down to 9 with it. Finally I manage to resolve a Kitchen Finks which brings me back to 11 and stops the Mongoose. He starts throwing Bolts and Fires at me while I get rid of his beater and start the offense. But a Price of Progress forces me to StP my own Finks to survive at 2. The next turn I evoke Shriekmaw and StP it too so that I can survive another Bolt/Fire. Fortunately I topdeck a Witness to recur a previously countered Finks and can win the game. The other game is far less exciting. I manage to control the board more or less the whole game and finish the Job with two Kitchen Finks.

3rd Round vs. TES
Game 1 Tendrils for someting like 30, Game 2 Thoughtseize, Gaddock Teeg. Game 3 was a little more interesting. We both mulligan down to 6 and he starts with Ponder. I snatch a Draw4 with Duress. He plays a land, passes and plays Orim's Chant in my upkeep. I already see myself losing with Gaddock Teeg in hand when he wants to pass the turn again. But EOT I extirpate his Chants and play Gaddock Teeg. He wishes for Pyroclasm but isn't able to cast it the same turn. I answer with Witness + Duress and he gives up.

4th Round I draw with a guy I know.

As I said it's not very representative (2 good Matchups, an ID and only 12 players) but I thought I'd still share it.

[Joon]

Here's my actual list:

// Deck file for Magic Workstation (http://www.magicworkstation.com)

// Lands
4 [ON] Windswept Heath
1 [SH] Volrath's Stronghold
4 [B] Bayou
3 [B] Scrubland
2 [B] Savannah
4 [ON] Bloodstained Mire
3 [UNH] Swamp
2 [UNH] Forest
1 [UNH] Plains

// Creatures
3 [LRW] Shriekmaw
3 [ON] Krosan Tusker
1 [ON] Gigapede
3 [SHM] Kitchen Finks
1 [RAV] Grave-Shell Scarab

// Spells
2 [TO] Chainer's Edict
4 [AP] Pernicious Deed
3 [FUT] Glittering Wish
4 [IA] Swords to Plowshares
2 [OD] Haunting Echoes
3 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
4 [LRW] Thoughtseize
3 [AP] Vindicate

// Sideboard
SB: 2 [FD] Engineered Explosives
SB: 1 [DIS] Crime/Punishment
SB: 1 [AP] Vindicate
SB: 1 [SHM] Kitchen Finks
SB: 1 [IN] Dueling Grounds
SB: 4 [LRW] Gaddock Teeg
SB: 4 [SHM] Wheel of Sun and Moon
SB: 1 [RAV] Grave-Shell Scarab

What do you think? Should I optimize the Manabase further? Maybe Monasteries (1-2 maybe?). What do you think about adding Goyf? He'd serve in the same way as in Landstill: A wall (if needed) in the early game, and a fast finisher in the later game. He alone would make the VG Matchup much better (Finks are good there, too, I know). But I don't know what to cut for a full Playset of Goyfs...I don't want to cut removal, I don't want to cut wish. So, only creatures...maybe of the Gigapede/Grave-Shell ones? I don't need those finishers with Goyf but I'd like to keep one. And then? Three slots missing
Any further suggestions?

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

I know that Glittering Wish has to have gotten much better with Eventide, but I don't know how. Anyone find anything silly in there yet?

[Illissius]

Well, let's see. Here's what looks even remotely usable:

Augury Adept
Dawnglow Infusion
Everlasting Torment
Firespout
Fracturing Gust
Fulminator Mage
Kitchen Finks
Mirrorweave
Murderous Redcap
Oversoul of Dusk
Vexing Shusher
Wheel of Sun and Moon

Cold-Eyed Selkie
Creakwood Liege
Divinity of Pride
Pyrrhic Revival
Rise of the Hobgoblins
Stillmoon Cavalier

Nothing which really jumps out. Firespout, but this deck is redless.

[Pinder]

Finks seems like the likeliest option, as it fits in with the recursion theme really nicely and gains you life (while being a decent beater). Not sure if it's a better wish target than Hierarch, though.

[Phantom]

Seems like wishing turn 2 for a Finks and dropping him turn 3 against a quick aggro deck is fairly solid. I would imagine it to be a better play against Goblins, and possibly even burn, than Hierarch.

Does Wheel of Sun and Moon not interest anyone? Seems like a turn 1 discard spell, turn 2 Wish, turn 3 Wheel is a pretty strong play against the multitude of yard decks. I know this deck always ran Echoes as a bomb, but is that even possible anymore? It seems like Dredge and Reanimator are too fast for it, and Loam will go out of its way (via Waste and Devastating Dreams) to ensure you never hit 3.