Oke, good arguments.
Still, I'm still debating whether the Abyss couldn't be replaced by Damnation, because there are situations your opponent has like 3 - 4 creatures.. If you play the Abyss, sure you'll get control over time, but you might be dead by then. With Damnation they're just all gone instantly. What is your experience in this?
That's certainly a legitimate concern....there are situations where Wrath/Damnation would buy you more time than The Abyss by wiping out several opposing creatures in one go, as opposed to picking them off over the following turns. My experience in this area? Pernicious. Deed. Wiping the board with Deed, then dropping The Abyss the following turn is usually back-breaking, particularly if they've played a single creature (say, a Goyf they were saving up) post-Deed.
If you've got a Deed in hand, sure, let them overextend into it, then play The Abyss to hinder their recovery. If you don't (have Deed), the judicious use of Swords and countermagic to control the number of creatures your opponent has in play also helps maximise The Abyss's impact. I don't suppose there's any playable Cunning Wish-able sweeper for those situations where things get out of hand? Hideous Laughter? Retaliate? Tsabo's Decree? Decree seems the most interesting, but it's also the most narrow....nailing Tarmogoyfs with a Decree naming Lhurgoyfs seems awful, but it would be a wrecking-ball against Goblins, random Elf decks, or anything remotely tribal.
Originally Posted by pi4meterftw
There's always Cunning Wish into Enlightened Tutor into Pernicious Deed or Engineered Explosives.
Also, Pulse of the Fields is awesome to stall against hordes, not so great against Tarmogoyfs obviously but those are handled quite fine via Slaughter Pact.
Last edited by diffy; 03-02-2008 at 08:39 AM.
Wing Shards.
YOU'RE GIVING ME A TIME MACHINE IN ORDER TO TREAT MY SLEEP DISORDER.
That's indeed what s*cks about Cunning Wish.. You can't get a Wrath of God/Pernicious Deed/mass removal.. But you can get a tutor (maybe use it the same turn) into mass removal / moat / abyss.
Kronicler, in my meta, has been playing Tempo Thresh for a few months now, so I consider myself pretty experienced in how to deal with it. Here's my plan, without a complete retooling of the deck:
-Force of Will Stifle. This is almost always the right play.
-Make sure Crucible of Worlds resolves. This will save you.
-Your life total is very valuable in this MU. I've lost many games to stabilizing at 6 life, and getting bolted out.
It seems to me that the solutions are:
-Counterbalance/Top MD - This is a threshold crusher, as we know. I don't see many arguments against it's inclusion.
-More basic lands - I would never up the fetch count past 6, because of Stifle. I would never up the dual count past 6, because of Wasteland. I've cut my manabase down to:
3x Polluted Delta
3x Flooded Strand
3x Underground Sea
3x Tropical Island
4x Island
1x Swamp
4x Mishra's Factory
3x Wasteland
-Less things with high CC, more Tarmogoyf - Tarmogoyf is good against Threshold. Because you can often play it through their disruption because of its relatively low CC, it's one of the best removal pieces that you run.
-Diabolic Edict is probably better than Smother in my 2 open slots. Goose is a total bitch.
My list is looking like:
3x Polluted Delta
3x Flooded Strand
3x Underground Sea
3x Tropical Island
4x Island
1x Swamp
4x Mishra's Factory
3x Wasteland
4x Tarmogoyf
4x Force of Will
4x Brainstorm
4x Standstill
4x Pernicious Deed
3x Counterbalance
3x Sensei's Divining Top
2x Crucible of Worlds
2x Diabolic Edict
2x Engineered Explosives
2x Vedalken Shackles
2x Counterspell
I'm not 100% sure about that list, but it feels strong against Red Threshold.
I'm not sure how much longer I'll be playing Landstill if the meta stays this way, however.
Some food for thought:
Are people still happy with their pair of Crucibles?
I've thought about cutting them down to one copy (fetchable with Wishboard Enlightened Tutor) to up the land count to 25 by adding in another Basic as CoW always feels terribly clunky and it isn't that essential now that people let go on the Wastelock.
I'm currently also considering dropping the last Wasteland in favor of a more stable manabase - the land destruction effect really only matters against recursion engines like Volraht's Stronghold or other manlands. It has some uses against combo (TES) but I think that a stable manabase is worthier than these limited applications.
Any thoughts?
For refference, here's my list:
Edit: To adress the last post:Code:/// Maindeck (60 cards) // Lands (24) 4 Flooded Strand 2 Polluted Delta 4 Tundra 2 Underground Sea 1 Scrubland 2 Plains 2 Island 1 Tolaria West 1 Academy Ruins 1 Wasteland 4 Mishra's Factory // Winconditions (5) 1 Eternal Dragon 2 Decree of Justice 2 Crucible of Worlds // Card Advantage (11) 4 Brainstorm 4 Standstill 3 Cunning Wish // Permission (8) 4 Counterspell 4 Force of Will // Removal (12) 4 Swords to Plowshares 3 Wrath of God 2 Humility 3 Engineered Explosives /// Sideboard (15 cards) 4 Meddling Mage 3 Engineered Plague 3 Extirpate 1 Slaughter Pact 1 Pulse of the Fields 1 Return to Dust 1 Enlightened Tutor 1 Blue Elemental Blast
This is why I like a singleton Life from the Loam instead of Crucible n°2 in 4c lists: the recursion effect is some good against Tempo Thrash and having 3 lands now is as good as a land drop a turn... it also helps that its a full mana cheaper making early land destruction much less scary.
Cunning Wish helps to solve this problem by fetching Pulse of the Fields which also helps to ignore lategame Mongeese which are most of the time harder to handle than Goyfs.
There are arguments against this inclusion though, the main argument being that Counterbalance is pretty much dead without Sensei's Divining Top or Brainstorm as your curve is all over the place and your land count too high to hit something blindly on a semi-consistant basis. Also, even with SdT I've found myself not finding the right cmc under the top3 cards more often than the 'occasionally' that is acceptable (source of testing: Bardo's list).
If you specially want to focus on the Tempo Thrash matchup, I'd reconsider playing Stifles (and this comes from a Stifle hater at heart) to fight their Wastelands and to keep them off the green mana they need. Also, I'd drop the number of colorless producing lands to the absolute minimum: Wastelands just aren't cutting against Threshold and against that particular build (they just need one threat to protect it and ride it to victory. Also you want to develop your manabase rather than slow your opponent: you are the one with the expensive spells and so create more tempo via having more lands).
Last edited by diffy; 04-03-2008 at 05:37 PM. Reason: Adressed last post
Yeah, I think I will test Stifle in place of 2x Diabolic Edict. Stifle seems good, and I just picked up 4. I kinda want to run 2 in my SB also.
To address your other points:
-LFTL- It's much clunkier than Crucible in my version of Landstill, however, it probably warrents testing. I like that one LFTL activation can usually salvage a game, and that it costs 1G instead of 3. I don't like that it's worse in most other MUs.
-I run UGB thresh, so I don't really want to play Cunning Wish. IMO, it seems that a stable manabase outweighs the pluses of running white, but I could be wrong. However, your UWB is something I haven't really considered. I don't know about it - Goyf seems very strong to me. Living Wish, on the other hand, is something I want to test. Living Wish for Maze of Ith, another Fetch, or Ravenous Baloth all seem strong in this MU.
-CounterTop- You definitely have a point, however, my curve is pretty centered at 2cc with some 3cc. So I do think Counterbalance isn't that bad blind.
Thoughts?
I don't think that 2 is the right number for Stifle to be at its best effect. I think you want 3-4 Stifles for them to be efficient: you really want them early, and they are especially good in your opening hand.
It's really only worse in matchup where you expect the game to drag out (you don't want to skip every third draw) or where you want to lock your opponent out (which is a bad plan in most occasions).
Also, that first example where LftL is worse than CoW is most likely to be in control matchups where this 'drawback' is overshadowed by the 'uncounterability' of LftL.
Living Wish is something that I wanted to try in Landstill since its been mentioned here. It could be quite good.
A possible wishboard slots could be:
1 Volrath's Stronghold [alongside more Shriekmaws in the mainboard targetet removal slots]
1 Shriekmaw
1 Ravenous Baloth or Darkheart Sliver
1 Yixlid Jailer
1 Virdian Zealot [hard on the mana, is there anything better? Nantuko Vigilante? Too mana-intensive, just as Indrik Stomphowler]
1 Maze of Ith [maybe redundant with Shriekmaw]
1 Academy Ruins [if you play 3 Engineered Explosives main]
1 Mesmeric Fiend [against combo]
1 Plague Splitter [against Goblins, Empty the Warrens - instead of Engineered Plague n°4]
The italic cards are probably superfluous but possible viable inclusions.
The thing is that you still play a lot of lands (23+) which make the Counterbalance engine worse than in dedicated aggro-control.
Actually Clemens uwb landstill looks like it can handle any threshold variant including moonthresh. But this probably only applies if your comfortable playing his list. I have been sort of working on an enlightened tutor uwb landstill list. I will probably show everyone once I get more testing done with it.
Don't forget The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale as a possible option. Makes a nice bailout to Empty the Warrens if you can get it down fast enough.
Viridian Zealot's a bad idea. I'd suggest Harmonic Sliver, but my instinct tells me your list doesn't run white. If you don't run white, Indrik Stomphowler at least attaches a beatstick body. it'sversus
A Polluted Delta is rarely a bad choice for the sideboard either. Manabase fixation is neat.
Hi,
here is my List i want to play on weekend, probably ~70 players tournament.
UWB LS
4 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
4 Tundra
2 Underground Sea
2 Island
2 Plains
1 Wasteland
1 Academy Ruins
1 Faerie Conclave
4 Mishra's Factory
3 Counterbalance
4 Force of Will
3 Counterspell
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Wrath of God
2 Engineered Explosives
2 Moat
4 Brainstorm
3 Standstill
3 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Enlightened Tutor
1 Crucible of Worlds
3 Hoofprints of the Stag
I have trouble with the Sideboard, but it could look like this:
4x Meddling Mage
3x Extirpate
1x Cop: Red
1x Tormod's Crypt
1x Pithing Needle
1x Rule of Law
1x Aura of Silence
1x Engineered Explosives
2 open Slots could be Stifle, Enineered Plague, REB.
It's a ***** meta ;>, but all kinds of decks are running around. Any ideas?
Last edited by Ch@os; 03-03-2008 at 01:09 PM.
I'd turn one Hoofprint into Eternal Dragon. There are lots of random decks against which a recurring threat is golden, and multiple Hoofprints are sometimes difficult to pay for. Moreover, Dragon Stompy is becoming popular, and Eternal Dragon gets you a basic Plains to play StP, or post-side Enlightened Tutor -> CoP: Red.
YOU'RE GIVING ME A TIME MACHINE IN ORDER TO TREAT MY SLEEP DISORDER.
Sigh. Caution: Rant to follow.
I get the feeling by reading this thread that you people either don't have a clue what you're doing, are terrible deckbuilders, or have some insane idea that you can account for every possible scenario by playing every frigging card in the maindeck.
All of these could be true, but I'm hoping it's just a stupid, stupid thread gone out of control.
Landstill is a deck that is inherantly based on adapting to the metagame that presents itself, and establishing small victories which eventually contribute to an overall win in the game. This can only occur once you've taken complete control - you establish a point where you cannot be beaten, and only then do you concern yourself with the process of winning the game.
As a control deck living in a metagame full of aggro-control, you have the advantage in any of those matches by recognizing that eventually, YOU WIN THE ATTRITION WAR. Not by going beatdown prematurely, not by attempting to hard-lock them somehow. I think the progression of this deck has forced many of you to lose the concept of the deck altogether.
Cunning Wish was tested in Landstill in order to provide answers to troublesome cards during game one, and specifically to save room on slots needed to access those answers. This is important, due to the idea that Landstill must be able to maintain a clear board at all times, to best utilize the card advantage provided by cards like Wrath, Damnation, Deed, and Disk. This pure advantage, combined with the virtual advantage garnered by not having creatures to kill, making your opponent's removal dead, combined with cards like FoF and Standstill to overwhelm your opponent in card advantage.
Enlightened Tutor does exactly the opposite. I can't believe you guys are considering running Enlightened Tutor as a Cunning Wish target, to find a bunch of crap you're piling into the maindeck. Are you seriously willing to trade two cards from hand (The wish, plus the card you don't draw when you Tutor) for a card that is situationally good? Literally the only card that I could even consider being a tutor target is Moat, and that completely flies in the face of all the foundations of the deck to begin with. Here's some insight:
Crucible was only ever added to the maindeck of Landstill when the mirror match was running rampant, and you expected to see it 2 to 3 times per tournament. It was a sideboard card for winning the mirror and protecting Factories. No one planned to be locking opponents out of the game with it, since generally speaking, you were Akroma's Vengeance-ing or Disking it away. Now that many people are running Deed, this is an even bigger issue.
Wasteland was put into the deck in a time where manabases could actually play around it. Why? The Wastes were a tool to deal with specific lands such as Volrath's Stronghold, which control decks had a difficult time dealing with. Again, not a lock.
Now, you're building manabases that are even more vulnerable to disruption than the atrocities Landstill played from day 1. 4 colors is extremely ambitious, and at that, most of you run between 6 and 9 lands that don't even produce colored mana! Why are you surprised that the new Thresh decks which are built to capitalize on shitty manabases are a bad matchup?
ADAPT TO THE METAGAME, CONTROL DECK. Making your deck less consistent by piling in situational trumps is a great way to turn into Enchantress. You get 6 cards that destroy a given deck, and 54 that suck. That's not the way to go about building a control deck. Why are we forcing the manabase so hard? What does white really give you, aside from Swords, and why is it so much better than say, Smother, or Edict?
The only reason you guys are running four colors is because you've been talked into believing that it's somehow acceptable or even justified. In truth, the word that best describes 4c landstill is "Greedy." You can't play every card. It won't work. You can't run 23+ lands in a deck and expect Counterbalance to work. You can't run Moat and Factory in the same deck and expect cards not to be dead.
I saw all this crap, and I mean there's a lot of it, and stripped it all down into my CaNG entry. I'm not pimping that deck, but you guys are going back over all the work I did before I built that deck, and completely missing all the conclusions I made. Honestly, how can you justify Counterbalance when you run 1 - 1! - three mana spell in the deck? What can you possibly hope to counter with it?
God, I can't even do this anymore. I'm way too frustrated.
Uhhh, i think you are really frustrated.
For example my decklist is not soo far from Zvi's decklist at the worlds.
And over here in Germany this deck works, and shows up in the T8's. Thats an argument you cannot beat with hating E. Tutor, CA-1 for an Moat, Crucible or winoption like Hoofprints? And in the worst case a counter in combination with CB.
Zvi's deck was terrible.
GASP! BLASPHEMY!
Even if you think it's great, the deck BARELY constitutes as Landstill, and it's running a better manabase than 90% of the lists in this thread.
Agreed. At least in Germany it was historically added to have access to game1 Extirpate against all those nasty Life from the Loam or Genesis tricks that out-card-advantage you otherwise. To not make the Wish totally suck in any other matchup, a small toolbox was included. First of all only Slaughter Pact, Return to Dust and Pulse of the Fields where included in it. The first two to turn Cunning Wish into a flex. Dark Banishing/Disenchant slot, the later to save room in the maindeck - PotF is just really strong in many matchups.
Then another slot was adapted: the card advantage slot for when you've nothing to handle. At first this was Fact or Fiction but that was so horribly clunky and the effect not worth the suck that I wanted to play something more mana efficient instead. The last part of the tech spiral, of which I'm not 100% fixed on yet, was to replace an Engineered Plague by a Blue Elemental Blast. The reasoning: both are good in their primary matchup (Goblins) while BeB adds some added flexibility (Blood Moon out etc) and is available from game1 on.
Could you please point out the flaw in above reasoning?
Now the 'random card advantage' slot' for me in the wishboard is Enlightened Tutor. The reasoning behind it? Well first of all we added Humility back into the maindeck which was like the best move because it is just such an 'I win' card against most of Legacy. Enlightened Tutor would dig that up. Also, being able to tutor for Engineered Explosives if creatures where of immediate matter or for Standstill onto an empty board or for Crucible of Worlds in the mirror/against other control was a strong point for the inclusion of Enlightened Tutor.
Can you spot the cards that are situationally good? All the cards mentioned above were already in the maindeck - Enlightened Tutor was just added to the Wishboard to be able to fight things that Cunning Wish can normally not (multiple creatures -> Engineered Explosives or Humility) or to provide a sort of virtual card advantage instead of the raw/unrefined card advantage of something like FoF: I think that having access to a card that makes all your opponents creatures suck (Humility) or that assures every land drop (Crucible of Worlds) overshadowes the 'random' CA created by FoF.
At the time of the German Legacy Champs I too thought like this, removed the CoWs from the main... and I will never do this mistake again. First of all, the Landstill mirror is quite rampant in Germany but even without this, CoW has its uses. It lets you ignore manadisruption to a large degree, it lets you recover from Geddon/Dev.Dreams/LftL locks etc. It is a sort of clunky, mid-lategamish thing and I have thought about cutting one (one stays main to be tutored up if need be via Cunning Wish) for another basic but I will never do the mistake again to completely remove it from the main.
Yey, mad props for someone finally understanding my point of view, but exactly for above mentioned factors (opposing manlands, recursion lands [Volrath's Stronghold, Academy Ruins so ruin your day]) it is wise to keep some copies - one in my case but I have a virtual count of 2 as I can tutor it up via Tolaria West which is better than a Wasteland always because above mentioned situations are quite rare and so you can just get something else than a Wasteland with Tolaria (Ruins+EE being the most prominent examples).
No, because we agree. Cunning Wish is generally in line with the overall strategic plan of Landstill.
How many colors are you running? I assume it's three. What does your manabase look like? What Win-cons are you using? What sweepers? All of this has to be taken into consideration for me to decide if it's worth getting into the Humility debate. Don't forget, I was absolutely the first person to return to the card in recent months - I like it a lot, but it has to be built around. It denies you access to other cards in the deck, and it's something that can't be just tossed in. This, much like Counterbalance, starts you down a slippery slope that eventually makes you play a deck that isn't really Landstill, and may not really be better.Now the 'random card advantage' slot' for me in the wishboard is Enlightened Tutor. The reasoning behind it? Well first of all we added Humility back into the maindeck which was like the best move because it is just such an 'I win' card against most of Legacy.
Moat, Seal of Cleansing, Counterbalance, Engineered Explosives, Crucible of Worlds, and Standstill. I'm also not specifically discussing your list, but most of the ones posted in the last few pages.Can you spot the cards that are situationally good?
The question is, should they have been?All the cards mentioned above were already in the maindeck
Enlightened Tutor does not provide virtual Card Advantage. It creates situational card selection. The target of the tutor effect creates the advantage. Also, you're incorrect in thinking that hitting your 12th land drop is more important than cards in hand (FoF). Crucible makes you tap out on turn three, which means you didn't play Standstill on turn 2, which means you aren't as far ahead as you should be.to provide a sort of virtual card advantage instead of the raw/unrefined card advantage of something like FoF: I think that having access to a card that makes all your opponents creatures suck (Humility) or that assures every land drop (Crucible of Worlds) overshadowes the 'random' CA created by FoF.
You seriously don't see a problem with this statement?It is a sort of clunky, mid-lategamish thing and I have thought about cutting one (one stays main to be tutored up if need be via Cunning Wish)
Don't even get me started on that piece of shit.I have a virtual count of 2 as I can tutor it up via Tolaria West.
Last time I posted my list in this thread was here.
Also I do think that Humility deserves a spot in any more white-centric build of Landstill: you just have way too much synergy with it: Decree of Justice & Manlands (which were not added because of Humility but were there since for ever). The only thing it makes worse is your Eternal Dragon but he's rather a manafixer in the first place.
How are Engineered Explosives, CoW and Standstill (the other ones not being in my list) situationally good? They are just pretty much auto-includes for Landstill and generally strong.
Also, with Enlightened Tutor you get to pick which of these situationally good cards you'd rather have next so that they actually suit the situation.
Right because you should start cutting Standstill and Engineered Explosives from Landstill...
Enlightened Tutor acts as additional copies of the cards that will produce the advantage so it basically is the same card, you just have to skip a single draw for it which is not that bad if you're going to draw 3 on your opponents next draw or if you're going to make all his creatures suck or if you're going to trade n for 2 via EE.
Also, your balatantly exagerating example somehow sucks: if you're in the lategame, you've acomplished your goal and therefore you've won... now you better hurry up and get into the lategame. CoW serves the purpose of putting you ahead in your landdrops which is equal to putting you ahead in the state of the game. For sure you don't need to hit all the land drops till turn12 but hitting all your landdrops from turn3 on is quite important as it basically teleports you into the lategame.
It may be because I'm pretty exhausted right now but no, I don't see a problem with that statement. Also, I'm still not convinced at all that going down to one CoW is the right move.
It amazes me how every single one rejects this card... obviously without having tested it.
Let me resume my train of thought:
I cut a Wasteland in order to accomodate this which makes the color stability higher while still allowing the eventual CoW+Waste or access to Wasteland when you need it. For sure it CiP tapped but this drawback is neglected by multiple factors: you can simply play it t1 which only delays your Brainstorms or you can just play another of the plenty of lands you normally have if you need the mana. Also, producing blue mana rather than colorless makes this drawback acceptable in terms of manabase stability.
For sure it will suck when you topdeck it turn4 with no other hands and will be crushed the next turn by a horde of guys, staring at the WoG in your hand but this will not happen very often as you play a significant amount of lands.
Now this was only talk about the drawback of Tolaria West, lets come to the advantages it has. First of all, it is very flexible searching a Mishra's Factory in the control matches (where the Wasteland that it replaced would have sucked) or an Engineered Explosives in the aggro-control matchups (where the Wasteland that it replaced would have sucked) or an Academy Ruins for a friggin' lock with EE - its just that strong.
EE is terrible against Goblins, as is Standstill. Crucible is marginally better vs. them, but it's pretty terrible against Combo, for example. Landstill plays a ton of cards that are situationally bad or amazing, depending on the matcup and the board position. This isn't really rocket science. It doesn't mean they aren't good cards, it means they are situationally good.
If you're running ETutor, there isn't really any reason not to. Standstill doesn't need to be a 4-of, and Explosives doesn't either. Thinking that specific cards are cannon, for example, Crucible, is the kind of thinking that gets me all frustrated to begin with.Right because you should start cutting Standstill and Engineered Explosives from Landstill...
And tapping out on turn three to play Crucible advances that gameplan how? Now not only do you need FoW turn 1 to prevent any hijinx, but you need it turn three, too, so you can stop it after you tapped out.if you're in the lategame, you've acomplished your goal and therefore you've won... now you better hurry up and get into the lategame.
The fact that I have arrived at a separate conclusion than you does not mean I haven't tested the card. It is possible for people's opinions to differ. I think the card is wasted space. It's obvious to me that you don't put quite the premium on deck space that I do.It amazes me how every single one rejects this card... obviously without having tested it.
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