I played around with the Meditate deck again tonight. Another thing to factor in is that you can play Meditate on your turn in a bad situation and hopefully see The Goods. This can mean digging for a Wrath or something like that.
People who objectively dismiss Meditate should goldfish their favorite decks and roll a die randomly to see if they might get another turn. Trust me when I say unexpected extra turns are not as good as expected ones.
I don't know if it's been mentioned but Meditate looks very nice when combined with Hoofprints of the Stag.
Beyond that, I can't see this card being any more than a 2-of as you want to see it in the mid-late game when both players are topdecking. I think casting it early on could be potentially devastating. Sure you could draw into a sweeper, but it won't matter if your opponent can use that critical turn to kill you.
EDIT: I know most of the discussion has centered on Pure Control, but I think Meditate would be even more effective in some Prison variant, like Stasis. Or Smokestack, as legacyplayer0 mentioned, where you could be hurting your opponent during his turn.
Holy Sh*t, quite a great discussion so far =P
Some notes:
Another strong argument I forgot to name.[...]in the mid-late game when both players are topdecking [...]
Yesterday I played my WUBS at Germany's Iserlohn (another big monthly tourney besides Dülmen) and found myself wishing for another pure CA-machine like FoF against several NQGs and Fishbuilds.
As soon as they detect you as a Controldeck they are stopping to lay down more than 1-2 creatures so you got to use EE / WoG for a very little effect which is horrible considering that you paid 4 Mana. They try everything to deny you from FoF - just as Deep6er mentioned - while sitting at 1-2 cards, just like you. So with no threat on the board they hope to kill you slowly by attacking with single creatures they are going to draw until you have no answer what is likely to happen when they are running Top(+Counterbalance for StoP -> means another 3-4 answer less for their threats)/less land than you.
Resolving a Meditate then would have given me the advantage to get out of that stupid 1 for 1 situation without having a big drawback since they are not expecting the extra turn.
In addition, at that point you usually have about 6-8lands on the table to use instant solutions in their extra turn (Shackles activation, Swords, Counterspell, Spell Snare, [Decree of Justice for Chumpblockers]).
Granted that Meditate needs to be timed in a way that you get as litte as possible disadvantages, but I don't think that anybody is that stupid to give the opponent an extra turn when he/she is going to kill me. The more balanced the boardposition, the weaker the (unexpected) extra turn for the opponent.Fact or Fiction is generally the same CA, without lending your opponent an extra turn, at the cost of 1 additional mana. With Tarmogoyf strongly embedded in the format right now, it seems that an extra turn is exactly what you don't want to be handing out to your opponent.
But when I am at 12 life and see that threshed Mongoose he played that turn, I'd probably cast the Meditate at his/hier EOT, take 3 damage and then manage to do something with the 4 drawn cards to get out of the situation. If I wouldn't have that Meditate and draw a land in my next turn, I'd have to take 3 damage while not having found an answer for that Mongoose.
Second, FoF rarely is a 4 for 1 trade. And if it is, it's probably the the "Damn!-I-can't-handle-that-threat" and "the-rest" pile solution.
Another strong advantage is that Meditate does not take up more than 1 slot per copy for such a strong effect. Draw4 is amazing.
The same effect has an Accumulated Knowledge for 4, but that requires you to have 3 already in the graveyard and usually people run 1-3 ways to find the extra copies (M. Scroll? / Intuition!) which makes up to 7 slots for a one-shot effect.
Doks
Having played rather extensively with the card at this point, I can say this much in regard to Fact vs. Meditate:
1) Meditate costs three. This cannot be stressed enough. There are a multitude of reasons this matters, the least of which is keeping mana open during the "extra turn." While Phantom is correct, the instant speed isn't relevant during the extra turn, it is relevant for the surprise factor, and it is relevant during the turn you decide to play the Meditate. Aside from that, it is excellent in a deck running Counter-Top, since three mana is a hard cost to cover. While 4 mana counters some important costs like Armageddon effects and Ringleader, Krosan Grip is a bitch.
2) The card advantage from Meditate is +2. The card advantage from FoF is very often +2, with an occasional +3, +1, and even a +0. At the same time, your opponent can play around whatever pile you choose. This has been addressed, so I'll leave it there.
3) Meditate says "draw 4 cards." This is mostly advantageous, but can occasionally bite you in the ass. Still, no one plays Chains of Mephistopheles anyway.
4) The extra turn your opponent gets from your Meditate will very rarely be more game-breaking than the four cards you get from it. You are playing control. You should be able to deal with one, or even two threats they play out. The scariest deck to play it against is Survival, and that's only if they have an active Survival. Even Goblins often can't go extremely nuts, unless they have Warchief and Lackey in play, or vials up the arse, in which case you've lost already. More succinctly, you can't use Meditate to recover from an extremely bleak game state against aggro, but you can absolutely turn a marginal one around. Versus any control deck, it's pure sauce. Versus combo, it's a bit of a die roll. I don't like using it too early, but if they've blown their load once and you stopped them, then letting them draw a single extra card is very rarely going to lose you the game. Drawing four extra cards can very well win you the game, on the other hand.
I guess that's all I got for now.
I think I should chime in here and say that I worked on blue Stax for a while, and tested Meditate. The card felt very much like a win-more in that deck as dropping it before you had locked up the board was generally disadvantageous for you since most of that deck operates at sorcery speed (artifacts) and its proactive capabilities are far better than its reactive ones (spell prevention versus answering resolved threats). Locking up the board is basically a win for you anyway, so Meditate was only useful for finding Factories faster than you normally would.
One thing that should be obvious, but I don't think has been explicitly mentioned yet, is that Meditate is going to be better in control decks with more instants.
I would have assumed the card was useless for control but several people have made strong arguments. Now I am curious to try it out!
I suppose you could say that with FOF, you might also "lose a turn" compared with Meditate, in the sense that if there's some particular card you're looking for, it's going to take at least one more turn to draw it with FOF as compared with Meditate, which balances out with the 'skip a turn' effect from Meditate.
This does make more sense to me, but I'm not sure I see the sense of it completely. Here are my thoughts:Originally Posted by Deep6er
1) Does any deck out there run more than 4 high cc draw spells? I mean after 4-8 Cantrips, 4 Fact, and like 10-12 counters, is there room for more card advantage?
2) Did you mean that you'll likely have seven or more mana by the time you draw Meditate? That confuses me (sorry if I'm misreading). Isn't running a draw spell that can bail you out of tight spots when you barely have enough mana to cast it, or that can kill other control decks with its card advantage a better idea? If you just want the latter, isn't Stroke almost always a better card?
3) Basically, what I think Nightmare just said (and what my brain leads me to believe) is that the card only really shines vs. Control. I would even worry about it vs. Threshold with its recently upped clock (and really, Control doesn't seem to be looking for a leg up on Thresh) . Isn't that a board card, and aren't there better options in the board?
4) To further that point you said, "Secondly, unless they're playing combo, the position that you're in will likely determine the exact value of Meditate." Isn't this the definition of conditional? I know there are many cards like this that are run, but generally they don't have less conditional substitutes.
5) In addition to the competition from Fact (this I'm a tad less sure about), but doesn't that slot see a lot of competition from Intuition/Gifts? These cards can fetch a card advantage engine against control or bail a deck in a tight spot. I guess it eats up some other deck slots, but I thought it might be worth mentioning.
I look forward to some healthy discussion.
I've never seen him so upset....or ever before.
That isn't what I said at all. I said that it won't dig you out of a nigh unwinnable situation, which FoF can't do either. I also said that it's better than FoF based on mana cost alone.
No, it's the definition of strategically playing your cards, as opposed to blindly throwing them out there. Is Wrath of God conditional because you try to maximize the impact it has?4) To further that point you said, "Secondly, unless they're playing combo, the position that you're in will likely determine the exact value of Meditate." Isn't this the definition of conditional? I know there are many cards like this that are run, but generally they don't have less conditional substitutes.
What dedicated control decks are running Intuition or Fact, and what are they trying to tutor up?5) In addition to the competition from Fact (this I'm a tad less sure about), but doesn't that slot see a lot of competition from Intuition/Gifts? These cards can fetch a card advantage engine against control or bail a deck in a tight spot. I guess it eats up some other deck slots, but I thought it might be worth mentioning.
Well, let's see if I can help clear up some confusion.
1) Actually, after Brainstorm, there are no other cantrips per se. Take Landstill for example. You have the Brainstorms, Standstills, and Fact or Fictions. That's it. However, I don't really think that's the right amount because of the rise of Landstill mirrors. Also, Counterbalance. Most Counterbalance decks have a preponderance of cards in the 1-2 slot, so Brainstorm and Standstill are dead. The deck should adapt to the abundance of Counterbalance decks as not being able to play Magic until you hit a Deed is a good way to lose.
2) Meditate helps in many phases of the game. That was my point. Ideally, you want it to make sure that you can win the war of attrition (which decks OTHER THAN Threshold tend to use against Landstill). Wars like that are not won in two turns. There's a reason Lanstill usually comes close to going to time (or goes to time). Stroke isn't actually better because it's prohibitively expensive for the same effect. You can't really expect to have 7 mana available in situations where you're behind in the war, and need to catch up.
3) Beyond the fact that Threshold has EXACTLY the same "upped clock" that every deck packing Tarmogoyf does, the situation is still the same. Tell me the honest truth, if you're facing lethal damage on the board, aren't you already in a pretty bad position? The point is the fact that decks rarely run right into mass removal like that. BECAUSE IT'S A BAD IDEA. Meditate is good in these situations because once you revert the board to an even (or even slightly unfavorable) position, you can take advantage of the time to draw more cards putting you ahead in the war of attrition.
4) Actually, my point was that the state of the board would define how powerful it is. Behind = Useful, Even = Amazing, Ahead = Stellar. The card is conditional in the exact same manner that Wrath is good WHEN YOUR OPPONENT HAS CREATURES. Unlike Standstill (which is another conditional draw spell), Meditate has significantly fewer requirements. All Meditate asks is if trading a turn is worth 4 cards. Usually, and especially when you're playing control, the answer is yes.
5) What deck runs Fact or Fiction AND Gifts/Intuition? The cards fulfill different purposes entirely. Beyond the fact that Intuition is meant to find SPECIFIC cards, it doesn't provide ANY card advantage. Gifts, even though it provides card advantage, is again used to find SPECIFIC cards. Fact or Fiction just says, "here are the top 5 cards of your deck, good luck." How are they comparable?
Not very much control decks except for WUBS / BBS run the full playset FoF, they usually play 2-3 FoF. Brainstorm usually stands alone for the cantrip-part. 4 FoW and 4 Counterspell are the commonly played staples. Anything more (except for MUC and its partners) like Spell Snare / Stifle / whatever is filling the optional slots in those decks like Landstill imho.1) Does any deck out there run more than 4 high cc draw spells? I mean after 4-8 Cantrips, 4 Fact, and like 10-12 counters, is there room for more card advantage?
Do you count Meditate's CC3 as high?
Stroke is too manaintensive imho. Paying 5 for +1 CA is not that good - even Inspiration would be better.2) Did you mean that you'll likely have seven or more mana by the time you draw Meditate? That confuses me (sorry if I'm misreading). Isn't running a draw spell that can bail you out of tight spots when you barely have enough mana to cast it, or that can kill other control decks with its card advantage a better idea? If you just want the latter, isn't Stroke almost always a better card?
I get what you mean by "conditional" in that case.
In general: the more mana you have on the board to react in the extra turn, the better becomes Meditate. I think that is the "conditional" part here. That sentence was stated to convince the people who really think that the extra turn is that crucial. In my opinion, if the boardposition in the early game is at least not horrible and devasting, casting EOT Meditate on their 3rd Turn is not such a big issue. Of course, the timing / boardposition needs to be valued more carefully if you don't have some mana open to react with your cards, no question - but that does not make Meditate a too conditional carddraw.
Thanks for the responses.
Here I was talking about MUC builds that pack Ponder (I've seen a few).
This still sounds like a board card to me, except in extreme metas.
And are Landstill players really worried about CB at all??? I've kept up with the Landstill forum pretty well and haven't seen a ton of concern over it (except maybe in the mirror). I know it's one of the ways Thresh can beat Landstill (CB + TOP + Needle on Deed + pray for no Grip) I just don't see it happening that much and I don't see it shutting down Standstill that much, especially early on.
My Stroke comment was based on this comment right here. I don't think people should be running Stroke, but if you're "likely to have 7 or more when you finally draw it" the card seems better at the war of attrition.
I actually agree with the first part of what you said (that you won't have 7 mana when you need to catch up) but this is exactly where Meditate sucks when it should shine. In desperation, draw spells need to be cast EOT, pick up what you need (StP, Deed, Wrath, Grip, etc), untap and play it. Meditate is awful at this. You need eight mana just to dig for a Deed , cast it and blow it for 2(since you can't cast it EOT). Fact gives you this in five mana while digging a card deeper (since you can).
Thresh does have the same upped clock that every Goyf deck does. I'm not sure how this helps your argument since the entire meta just got faster and the draw spell you are advocating is decidedly not fast.
Yes, but I'd prefer to dig for an answer, play the answer, and try to win than pack it in.
I disagree. It's a calculated risk and one of the few ways Thresh can win the battle versus Landstill. I'd much rather take my chances at laying down 2-3 fatties and trying to protect them than laying my creatures one against a deck packing more removal than my number of creatures and more draw than me. To quote Taco "Threshold beats you if they mess up your manabase, if they Counterbalance lock your removal, or if they drop several threats early and are just too fast for you to stabilize."
I can't argue this. My only question would be how often Meditate turns an unfavorable board position into an unwinnable board position? If it's not very often, then I'm right there with you and would run the thing. I just am currently doubting that.
See I agree with your point, I just think we value the card differently. I would say Behind = As bad as Standstill, Even = Good but risky, Ahead = Great but risky.
I can completely see how it would make a great sideboard addition for the control mirror.
@ Intuition/Gifts: Just ignore me. Clearly I was wrong.
@ Doks: I wasn't saying that 4 Fact (hell I think it's a bad idea in Landstill) is automatic, just that most decks would run 4 Fact before they dipped into Meditate.
I've never seen him so upset....or ever before.
Some quick responses, then I'll come back and post later.
Threshold should NEVER pray to avoid getting 2 for 1'd with Deed. I've beaten many players that have done that. Counting on stopping their removal is an awful plan, because it's the one thing they're guaranteed to fight over. The only reliable way to stop their spot removal is by playing Counterbalance. Then, if that resolves, you can decide to fight Deed, but then you won't have any counterspells left for Fact or Fiction or Meditate or some other draw spell. That means that cards that aren't necessarily board sweepers (Vedalken Shackles) will get through. You should usually try to counter their draw methods because that's one of the few things that will give the control player OPTIONS. The more options they have, the worse your position.
Also, yes, you should be worried about Counterbalance. Regardless of the deck you're playing. You know why? Because it can counter a bunch of spells that you want to play. Brainstorm? Swords? Standstill? Tarmogoyf? Counterspell? These cards all fit right into the curve of most Counterbalance decks. Do you really want upwards of 20 dead cards? All your opponent has to do is resolve this enchantment, and now you have around that many dead cards. Seems good to me.
Actually, Meditate is strong at finding you your pieces when you're in desperation mode. Finding and blowing a Deed for two will kill all of the creatures on the board (unless you're playing against Goblins), and means that they're extra turn (while probably OK for them), will not be backbreaking. However, and more importantly, it means that you didn't lose cards like you would have with Fact or Fiction. If they pile it Deed vs. the world, you've lost those other cards. Probably one, maybe two, useful spells that you're not going to get back. However, with Meditate, you get to KEEP ALL of the cards. So, best case scenario, you draw Deed, Swords, blank, blank, you're still going to come out ahead.
My point about the "upped clock" is that Landstill is prepared for it. Whenever your opponent plans on winning with creatures, Landstill is prepared for it. All the removal that Landstill packs deals with 'Goyf. Therefore, it's irrelevant to talk about a faster clock, simply because every single piece of removal in your deck, will kill their "faster clock".
My point about the bad position, is that there are very few cards that will allow you to get back into the game, so basing a card off of the evaluation that when you're already ridiculously in the hole that it's not as insanely great as it could be is flawed logic. Not to mention the fact that Meditate is also capable of getting you out of said hole, AND KEEPING YOU OUT OF IT, then Fact or Fiction is. The reason why is simple. When you're in the hole, and you cast Fact or Fiction, it's "reveal the top 5 cards of your deck, put Deed in your hand." Meditate allows you to keep the other cards which will help in the "getting you the fuck out of the hole" strategy that you're trying to employ.
I'm telling you with absolute certainty that Meditate is stellar (in Landstill, which is where I've tested it) at turning an even, or slightly unfavorable board position, into clear dominance. It's been fantastic in testing, and I'm sure Nightmare can back me up on this. Seriously, try the card out.
QFT.
Consider your back upped.
Any particular spot (or preferably build) you would recommend?
(Note that I'm not PMing because I think it helps the discussion along)
I've never seen him so upset....or ever before.
Using the list I played at the Mana Leak Open for reference, a build that I would suggest would look SIMILAR to:
// Lands -23
1 Island
4 Flooded Strand
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Polluted Delta
4 Tropical Island
3 Tundra
3 Underground Sea
// Enchantments -10
3 Counterbalance
3 Pernicious Deed
4 Standstill
// Spells -17
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
3 Meditate
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Fact or Fiction
// Artifacts -4
2 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Vedalken Shackles
// Planeswalkers -2
2 Garruk Wildspeaker
// Creatures -4
4 Tarmogoyf
The sideboard would be radically different from what I played at the Mana Leak Open, but the maindeck is similar. However, I'd been testing Meditate in versions of TEC (before Nightmare stole the deck from me :), at which point it was called something else), and it was performing very well there too. Did you want me to post that as well? I'll post reasons for my list is as wacky as it is when I get back from work.
Last edited by Deep6er; 01-22-2008 at 07:59 AM. Reason: Changed my mind.
I stole the deck from you and Di at the same time?
Man, I'm amazing.
Meditate fills a lot of gaps in TEC. I was extremely wary at first, but it's grown on me for sure. The card is pretty insane.
Is Meditate not useless against Gobblin/Sliver/Deadguy/Burn/TES/Ichorid ...?
It seems to me that Meditate is only good against Control & aggro Control Goofy builds.
Goblins has been discussed. It's more situational vs. that deck than most, but no more than Standstill.
Slivers is a joke. Resolve Wrath, win. Meditate gets you to Wrath.
Deadguy is a matchup where it's actually pretty insane. It refills your hand after they rip it apart. It was one of your best threats against them in Solidarity, it's not that different in control.
Burn draws 1 card to your 4. In both Dave's suggested build and TEC, we neuter half their deck with Counterbalance anyway, so it's not an issue.
TES has been discussed. You can't play Meditate until after they try to go off anyway, so if you stop them once, the extra card shouldn't be as relevant as the 4 you get.
Ichorid is a beating anyway.
Either I'm missing something or everyone else is, but isn't the mana saved with the low mana cost completely offset by the untap step you lose?
SummenSaugen: well, I use Chaos Orb, Animate Artifact, and Dance of Many to make the table we're playing on my chaos orb token
SummenSaugen: then I flip it over and crush my opponent
It's one of the smallest issues.
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