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Thread: [ATW] Landstill

  1. #981
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    Re: [ATW] Landstill

    I just won the monthly Legacy event in Speyer (37 people) with my new UWb Landstill build and wanted to re-enforce my point about Tolaria West in UWb Landstill as it was amazing all day long.

    I played against:

    TES 2:0
    MUC/b 2:1
    Tempo *****/r 2:0
    Faerie Stompy 2:1
    UBw Aggro Control 2:0
    NQG/w ID for secure first place for me and top4 for him

    For reference, my list:

    What really anoyed me all day long was Slaughter Pact for not being able to handle black creatures (Tombstalker, Dark Confidant, Shadowmage Infiltrator etc.). In theory he's very usefull against Magus of the Moon but I don't know if it wouldn't be better to replace it with something else like Diabolic Edict or Condemn. Any thoughts/suggestions?

    I'll edit in a more detailed report later, but here some more points about Tolaria West:
    • It fetches you a Mishra's Factory for beatdown or defense (not to be underestimated and done numerous times today)
    • It fetches Academy Ruins for insane recursion with Engineered Explosives
    • It fetches Wasteland against combo or under Crucible
    • It fetches Engineered Explosives in any other situation
    • It is a freaking blue mana source

    So the result really seconded my first impression that the land just is versatility deluxe at a mediocre price (cip tapped is not that bad as one may think as you nearly always have other lands and so can play it when you have enough mana available or when you don't have anything to do).
    For me, it's going to stay!

    Edit: A short report
    After not having to go to one of those really sucky family thingies because of being sick and stuff I had no parents at home (tech!) and loads of free time over the weekend and so figured that I could actually play in the local event in 'Speyer' aka Haßloch something which I normally only seldomly do because I don't like the prizes and the appeal of small tournaments.
    After something that seemed like an infintedly long drive we (Marius Laber, Stefan Spiritofthewretch Czolk, Manuel Heiler, Florin [random name I can't get myself to remember], Thomas Dörner, Harrald Herrlich and me) finally reached the location: a restaurant with an infintedly large back room where a total of 33 nerds gathered to spend their rest of the day in which allowed 6 rounds of swiss and prizes upon standings.

    My weapon of choice: UWb Landstill chosen over Ichorid because its hated too much and over NQG/w because I wanted to prove you something .

    Round 1 vs Stefan Czolk [spiritofthewretch] with TES

    Great, first round and directly paired against a fellow guy from Karlsruhe.
    I win the dice roll and don't do anything relevant for the first few turns appart from keeping Stefan low on mana by Explosiving 2 Chrome Moxen and by Wasting (fetched by Tolaria West) his only land. He recovers but I am able to defeat his first volley of assaults. I Cunnig Wish for Extirpate and remove his Infernal Tutors. After a while I get Mishra's Factory beatdown and counter another of his attempts at combo. After that I wish for another Extirpate and remove his Bruning Wishes. I cylce a decree shortly after to finish him off.

    1:0

    -3 Wrath of God
    -2 Humility
    -1 Swords to Plowshares
    -2 Decree of Justice
    -3 Cunning Wish
    +3 Extirpate
    +4 Engineered Plague
    +4 Meddling Mage


    I keep a mediocre hand and he leads with a Xantid Swarm from the sideboard but I have the Swords and a turn 2 Meddling Mage chanting Burning Wish. I get some beats going but then he casts a Tendrils for 10 buying him numerous turns. He then procedes to Pyroblast my Mage. I Extirpate the Pyroblast so that nothing can stop my infinted counters before I'm able to swing for the win.

    2:0

    1-0-0 (2:0)

    Round 2 vs Marius Laber with MUC/b

    My plan to avoid the people from Karlsruhe completely fizzled as soon as round 2... nice! and it's a bad matchup too!!
    He wins the roll and we don't do a thing but trade counters and removal until he gets a Psychatog that gains him a lot of life thus recovering him from my Factory beatdown. I then somehow manage to have enough counters for his shit (Shackles, Back to Basics etc) until he's dead.

    1:0

    -3 Wrath of God
    -1 Cunning Wish
    -1 Humility
    -1 Decree of Justice
    +4 Meddling Mage
    +2 Extirpate


    After this first game my boarding was a little un-coordinated and all over the place but I just had no clue how his list could look like after seeing utility creatures (Shadowmage Infiltrator, Psychatog) in a traditional MUC shell.
    My first play was a second turn Meddling Mage chanting Back to Basics which was awesome, until he Smothered him and droped one (countered) followed by a second one. A Tombstalker finishes me off quickly afterwards.

    1:1

    -1 Swords to Plowshares
    +1 Humility


    I get a Mage chanting Back to Basics and Extirpate a lot of his stuff (Explosives, Shackles). We trade Back to Basics and Explosives until I get a Crucible of Worlds and a Humility. I then transmute Tolaria West for a Mishra's Factory that gets the job done just on time... in the last extra turn.

    2:1

    2-0-0 (4:1)

    Round 3 vs Daniel Scherer [Adan] with Ugr Tempo/Canadian *****

    I had played this matchup from the other side (me playing NQG) on MWS some time ago and it didn't seem all like the cakewalk normal NQG is but still in your favour so that this test against a competent NQG player would be really interesting.
    In the first game I bait some counters with removal, resolve a WoG that buys some time to find counterbackup for my Humiility that then wins the game, just that simple.

    1:0

    -3 Cunning Wish
    +3 Extirpate


    He takes a mulligan but gets some decent beats in a Nimble Mongoose (a counterwar over Tarmogoyf was won by me earlier) and burns me down to 9 lives when he makes the mistake to drop a second one that then gets WoG away as my Explosives was previously needled. I then Extirpate his Mongeese and procede to beat him up with 3 Factories. At that point I still have a Crucible of Worlds to bait his Krosan Grip to then resolve my Humility but I just didn't need it as I was in fullest control of the game his only out being to burn me for another 9 damage... this was in grave contrast to the MWS testing as I didn't have a single weak spot in any of the 2 games and just fisted him (as Landstill should do) - strange.

    2:0

    3-0-0 (6:1)

    Round 4 vs Tobias Ball with Faerie Stomy

    The first guy I face that I don't know personally!! Yey and cheers for that.
    He's on the play and leads with a Sword of Fire and Ice which gets equiped onto a Cloud of Faeries on turn 2. He then procedes to beat me for 5 a turn until I find a white mana source for my Swords to Plowshares. I'm at 10 life at that point. I then play a Humility and it's only a matter of time until I get Engineered Explosives and Return to Dust to remove his equipment for my DoJ tokken and Factories to dominate the board.

    1:0

    I'm fascinated that he boards in 8-12 cards while I've got... nothing.

    I mulligan once and he has another 1st turn SoFI. I drop a second turn Standstill and he responds with... PESTERMITE! which gets equiped and deals me a total of 12 damage until he plays an Umezawa's Jitte (wtf?) so that I don't have to crack my own Standstill to kill it. Nevertheless he has way too much gas and I don't get any solid removal. Also his Winter Orbs and Back to Basics are a real pain as they make countering stuff/ tapping out so much harder decisions.

    1:1

    He doesn't have any broken start and I completely dominate him from start to end drawing a shitton of cards via Standstill and Brainstorm and removing all his stuff with WoG, Swords and Explosives - doing what you're meant to do, second take, action.

    2:1

    4-0-0 (8-2)

    Round 5 vs Alexander Verlohner with UBw Aggro Control

    He doesn't do much aside from countering randomly my stuff but I am still able to get into the lategame and pick out his random threats (Tombstalker, Shadowmage Infiltrator) and get Crucible+Wasteland (fetched by Academy Ruins) going.

    1:0

    -3 Cunning Wish
    +3 Extirpate


    There's nothing much to say about this game except 2 notable situations the first being him Duressing me for a random card and then Extirpating the 2 Swords to Plowshares that he saw away from me. Following this he played a Shadowmage Inflitrator which I try to remove but he has a counter for my Engineered Explosives and my WoG in subsequent turns. The invitational card drew him 2 extra cards until I finally get rid of him. I then go onto the aggro mode, Extirpate his Forces and resolve a Humility ftw.

    5-0-0 (10-2)

    Round 6 vs Florin with NQG/w

    He's 4-0-1 and drawing would mean that he's top4 for sure. He realizes that his matchup sucks and so agrees which makes me first. We then play out whether I have to give him a little something for drawing or not... obviously playing Highlander - the only real format.
    I play a 5c Goodstuff control pile with some counters, removal, draw, Moat, Future Sight, Miraris Wake and a little combo with Palinchron (+ Stroke of Genious) alongside alot of tutors to respond to any sitation and to fetch the combo. He plays BWG Goodstuff Aggro Control also with a mini combo involving Yosei and ways to recur and sack him (Greater Good, Reccuring Nightmare, reanimation etc).

    There's nothing much to say of the games as he crushes me with a nutty turn 5 Miraris Wake, turn 8 cycling DoJ for infinited and by Swordsing my Bringer of the Black Dawn that would have searched a solution.

    0:1

    Game 2 he gets his Greater Good engine going while I tapped out to play a Mindslaver. He recurs Yosei twice after drawing half his deck but then the following Slaver activation completely wreaks him.

    1:1

    In game 3 I go combo into his face on turn10 and there's nothing he could do about it because of counters and Moat - roar.

    2:1

    I'm in first and get to pick out of a pool of:
    [list]Foil German Wooded Foothills[*]Foil Pernicious Deed[*]Playset Orim's Chant[*]Underground Sea[*]Force of Will[*]Wooded Foothills[*]Polluted Delta[*]Windswepth Heat/list]

    I take the Foil Foothills because I already own like 2 Orim's Chant and because they're harder to get and pimpier (doh).

    The top8 was:
    1. Clemens Wolff (me) with UWb Cunning Landstill
    2. Alexander Verlohner (unregged) with UBw Aggro Control
    3. Daniel Scherer (Adan) with Tempo/Canadian NQG/r
    4. Florin Ratajczak (unregged) with NQG/w
    5. Fabian Moyschewitz (unregged) with Deadguy Ale
    6. Jens Hoffmann (unregged) with 4c Landstill
    7. Tobias Ball (unregged) with Faerie Stompy
    8. Christian Schäfer (unregged) with NQ Eternal Garden


    Lists and more info (german site)


    Edit: But really, the location / restaurant sucks hardcore - don't eat their 5,50€ dish! I feel so sick right now that I actually migh not be able to attend school tomorow.

    Edit n°2, 1.5h later: Taking that dish was such a fatal error.
    Last edited by diffy; 01-24-2008 at 10:37 AM.

  2. #982
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    Re: [ATW] Landstill

    Hey great report. I really like 3c still, except for wrath of god. I just can't get over deed. It makes me sad, but why go for corn when you can have corn pudding. "goobers all over self."

    hahaha

    Anyways I think we need to seriously have a vote on this thread about wether t goyf is in landstill or not.

    Personally I hate it. I think it's bad. But every 15 posts recently I see somebody saying it's soo necc. Bleh

  3. #983
    Plays green decks
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    Re: [ATW] Landstill

    Goyf seems out of place, but when you think about it, it really takes the deck to a different level. You are easily capable of being the control deck in games, Goyf allows you to put on a fast clock and turn into an aggressive deck to end the game quick when you need to. It is also removal. You play it and it owns the ground. It just makes the deck a more controlling thresh.

  4. #984
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    Re: [ATW] Landstill

    You could play tarmogoyf... or you could play humility, rape Tarmogoyf... and maker lots of 1/1s that will never be able to just get chump blocked...

    Wrath is better in the meta currently, as creatures are seemingly the most important asset to decks these days... this is one of the strongest assets of Clemens' deck, as it rapes creatures all over the place.

    I just took this deck (Clemens' exact list) to a 17ish man tourney this last saturday, and got second; going 2-0 against thresh, 2-0 against pikula, 2-0 against pox, 2-0 against dragon stompy, 0-2 against reanimator (I swear, whenever I play Rodrigo Gonzalez he gets a second turn Simic Sky Swollower and I do not have anything...).

    The sideboard is kinda dead against my meta, but it works wonders against a more competative one.

  5. #985

    Re: [ATW] Landstill

    Quote Originally Posted by thefreakaccident View Post
    You could play tarmogoyf... or you could play humility, rape Tarmogoyf... and maker lots of 1/1s that will never be able to just get chump blocked...
    Ya...but Humility isn't a clock, and doesn't cost 1G. Humility is fine in those decks running heavy white & Wrath, but I don't like it as much along side Deed or the 4C manabase.

    Concerning Goyf, it is ridiculous to have a vote weather or not a card should appear in a deck. If you like playing with the card, by all means, do. I personally, do.
    It's not that hard to wrap your mind around why he's good. Let me tweek Freund's deck as an example. I personally play 4C, and this is sort of my thought process.

    Switch around manabase to accommodate green
    -1 Academy ruins
    -1 Wasteland
    +2 Nantuko Monestary (because I'm adding green, and he's a good threat. Plus, I don't like those one of lands that come around every once and a while, probably at some inopportune time)
    -1 Eternal Dragon
    +1 Life from the Loam (I usually use Dragon for early game mana smoothing, and a possible late game win. Loam does all that for cheaper, while protecting my lands from LD, and still recurs my threats. Or another land works. Possibly Garruk, I haven't tested him yet)
    -3 Cunning Wish
    +3 Fact or Fiction (I used to play heavily with Wish, but that was in the UWb version, and I haven't tested it in 4C alongside Goyf, though it would be interesting to do [Especially Tutor + Deed]. Fact is all around good)
    -3 Wrath
    +3 Deed (Duh.)
    -2 Humility
    +2 Stifle (I personally feel I have enough creature control, especially with Goyf outclassing the creatures I might choose to let resolve. Stifle is gold against combo)

    Ok, the next changes are important:
    -2 Crucible
    -2 Decree
    +4 Goyf (I don't do the whole Crucible lock thing since I realized it sucks. Crucible is supposed to ensure mana drops, recurr threats, and as an afterthought wastelock. Only problem is Wasteland loses me a lond drop when Crucible isn't around, doesn't necessarily even screw my opponent up much, and makes me more vulnerable to other Wastes and lack of UU. As far as mana drops and recurring, LftL does it better, for cheaper, and besides LD isn't that big of a deal when you have a Goyf or two in play. Decree acts as a late game threat, which you can do some cool tricks with, but I think Goyf is a better threat, and doesn't decrease the speed of my deck to that of an iceberg.
    So, I'm replacing a threat and a useless card with a better threats, and not only that, but better utility in general.

    That is basically my list then, and I've never had one complaint with it (well, except when my opponent goes turn1 Magus and I don't have a Fow...but who can complain about that..)

    I'm planning on testing out various slots:
    Stifle/Spell Snare (with -1 Counterspell for +3 Snare)
    FoF/Wish
    Stifle/Smother/Shriekmaw/Garruk
    LftL/land/Garruk

  6. #986

    Re: [ATW] Landstill

    Humility may not be a clock but it sure makes your threshold matchup extremely better in my opinion. Besides humility provides an role of making your manlands and cycled decree of justices that much better but that is obvious. Humility also provides you with another incentive to drop standstill as well.

    Also I really like your uwb landstill list Clemens it is definitely a great list. I am probably going to give the deck a spin tommorrow on mws just for fun.

  7. #987

    Re: [ATW] Landstill

    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Funk View Post
    Humility may not be a clock but it sure makes your threshold matchup extremely better in my opinion. Besides humility provides an role of making your manlands and cycled decree of justices that much better but that is obvious. Humility also provides you with another incentive to drop standstill as well.

    Also I really like your uwb landstill list Clemens it is definitely a great list. I am probably going to give the deck a spin tommorrow on mws just for fun.
    yea humility is a great card against any creature deck..... but the card still costs 4, it still costs double white, and it still will get removed by krosen grip(which is in practically every threshold side) the card is great against threshold, if you can get it down, first game you might get it down if they are not expecting it, but threshold has more counters and can remove it without you doing anything about it,(unless you play morph ) when I played the card, it was great against any deck that was aggro except threshold. which back then my meta had alot of red aggro decks, which now it has gone down some. The main reason I dont play humility because it doesn't kill anything or win the game, it just slows your opponent down. But I'm also a fan of the 4c build and having the best board sweeper in the game, the best creature in the game, the best single remover in the game, the best counterspell in the game, the best draw in the game,and the best planeswalker


    oh and also I can't ever listen to a person with clemens in the name(from an indians fan)

  8. #988
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    Re: [ATW] Landstill

    I'm an extreme supporter of humility. Not only is it simply amazing against any kind of creature oriented decks, but it stops the real problem creatures in this format. For that matter it stops all creatures. But generally speaking:

    Bob
    goyf
    mongoose
    doran
    meloku

    ect. ect. The list goes on and on, but the bottom of the line is it's simply amazing.

    When I resolve humilty in the mid-late game my winning percentage is around 75-80 percent. That makes it worth playing. Anything that gives you those kind of numbers and still has synergy with everything in your deck - maybe eternal dragon because of its tremendous cost to grab and cast it's deffinately worth it.

    For the people talking about deed and humility combinations not working. Let me ask you this. Whens the last time you had to deed for 4+ mana? Frankly the only time I can see that happening is against random jank.dec. and frankly if you resolve a humility against say MUC all you have to do is sit back and let them cry or conceit immidiately. As all of their win conditons cost upwards of 4 mana.

    Honestly the hype about goyf just doesn't seem worth it. I'm more afraid of something thats untargetable or has some serious evasion that I just don't have then I ever would be of a base creature. Especially with a combination of stp deed and humilty in a deck. Not to mention I also run wish as most people know by now and that can usually create more virtual card advantage than my opponent can possibly deal with.

    I really wish I liked life from the loam better BTW, but honestly I just can't seem to get over ripping random cards from the top of your deck and hoping it's all land. Crucible brings consistency and keeps board position. Thats why it's good, thats why it's better in most case scenarios. Yes life from the loam does amazing things against random discard jank, but honestly a serious 4cstill build will be beating discard decks anyways.

  9. #989
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    Re: [ATW] Landstill

    Hi guys, I'm mostly a threshold player and I'm thinking about trying my hand at Landstill. I'd like to know your opinion on which build has the best Goblins match-up ? In general, what build (4c, UGb,UWb or UW) would suit best an aggo-control meta (Threshold, Deadguy) with a bit of Goblins, Goyf-Sligh, Affinity, Landstill and Belcher ? Right now I'm having a hard time deciding between 4c and UWb. The deciding factor being mostly Wrath vs. P. Deed and non-basic land hate.

    Der_imaginäre_Freund, how does your build fare against Goblins pre-board ?

    Thanks in advance.

  10. #990
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    Re: [ATW] Landstill

    I've actually found that UBg can be tuned to have a great Goblins MU. I just built the deck a few days back and have since gone something like 15-4 against Goblins preboard (not sure about Postboard yet, but I have Engineered Plague). In a goblins filled meta I would run UBg over Ubwg because it's less vulnerable to port/wasteland.
    The key to the goblins MU is to deal with Lackey/Vial. If you can do this, you'll have no problems. In my build I run 4x Innocent Blood, 4x FoW, and 2 EE, so this isn't really a problem. Ringleader can also be annoying, but by the time he comes online you have Counterspell and the like to deal with him. Really, contrary to what most people say, I havn't found Goblins to be that hard. And once I get my playset of Goyfs, it should be even easier.

  11. #991

    Re: [ATW] Landstill

    Quote Originally Posted by aTn View Post
    Hi guys, I'm mostly a threshold player and I'm thinking about trying my hand at Landstill. I'd like to know your opinion on which build has the best Goblins match-up ? In general, what build (4c, UGb,UWb or UW) would suit best an aggo-control meta (Threshold, Deadguy) with a bit of Goblins, Goyf-Sligh, Affinity, Landstill and Belcher ? Right now I'm having a hard time deciding between 4c and UWb. The deciding factor being mostly Wrath vs. P. Deed and non-basic land hate.

    Der_imaginäre_Freund, how does your build fare against Goblins pre-board ?

    Thanks in advance.
    even thou halve the people on here are really arrogent, goyfstill is the best version against goblins and threshold. and meta that runs affinity and belcher should run deed (which means 4c) P. deed is always better than wrath in every matchup, there are soo many things that deed hit that wrath doesnt.
    vial(also if they try to vial anything in response, those still die)
    countertop
    all of affinity
    alot easier to kill tokens
    it will hit belcher, hits most of stax decks,
    you can use ability at instant speed, which helps against goblins(you wait till their turn, force them to attack then blow which keeps them from dropping warchief and driver and still kill you.
    it also blows animated lands.

    For you, I would deffinitly go with goyfstill just because you have been playing with threshold for so long, you will have more of the aggressive side to play goyfstill right. If you don't believe me and go with the arrogent people on here that hate goyf, just go look at a bunch of the worlds players, almost all of them are playing goyf, If you live in america, play goyf, (it seems like only foreign players can play landstill without goyf and do well) can't really help you out on the land hate, I deffinitly think the deck needs it but I am having a hard time finding slots for it, and the biggest weakness for this deck are recursion lands such as dustbowl, volrath's stronghold and such. Which is why I am trying to find a way to put in wasteland, but right now I have sided with needle in side. On the other note, the deck does have great land denial opportunities, the best 2 turns this deck has are to stifle their first fetch then play standstill with you having 2 lands and them none.

  12. #992

    Re: [ATW] Landstill

    Quote Originally Posted by Mental View Post
    I've actually found that UBg can be tuned to have a great Goblins MU. I just built the deck a few days back and have since gone something like 15-4 against Goblins preboard (not sure about Postboard yet, but I have Engineered Plague). In a goblins filled meta I would run UBg over Ubwg because it's less vulnerable to port/wasteland.
    The key to the goblins MU is to deal with Lackey/Vial. If you can do this, you'll have no problems. In my build I run 4x Innocent Blood, 4x FoW, and 2 EE, so this isn't really a problem. Ringleader can also be annoying, but by the time he comes online you have Counterspell and the like to deal with him. Really, contrary to what most people say, I havn't found Goblins to be that hard. And once I get my playset of Goyfs, it should be even easier.
    I have heard this deck does have a good matchup but from what your talking bout do you not run deed? if you do then this deck would have a great matchup against goblins, my 4c build has gone 7-0 matches, 14-1 in games and the one game I lost was because of triple port and I Had a low land hand. And you are perfectly correct, goyfs make the matchup soo easy, the card forces goblins to over extend then you just blow board, tehy lose 5 goblins you lose 1 goyf, very good odds.

  13. #993
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    Re: [ATW] Landstill

    Landstill have been getting my interest lately, since I want to have an alternative to my ichorid deck and I have 4 tundra lying around that i want to put to good use. So why not try some UW landstill i thought. I've been researching around for some time now and I've come to a decklist which I think is pretty neat. However I would love to see some other suggestions, only criteria I have is that I don't want to play 4c or UBG. UW, UWg or UWb is what I want. Enlightened tutor for random Moat madness have been a think I want to try out as well. Heres the UW decklist I have brewed together now:

    //Wincons (9):
    3 Hoofprint of the Stag
    2 Decree of Justice
    4 Mishra's Factory

    //Permisson (8):
    4 Force of will
    4 Counterspell

    //Removal (9):
    1 Moat
    4 Swords to Plowshares
    2 Engineered Explosives
    2 Wrath of God

    //Dig (10):
    2 Fact or Fiction
    4 Brainstorm
    4 Standstill

    //Utility (10):
    3 Enlightened Tutor
    2 Crucible of Worlds
    1 Tolaria West
    1 Academy Ruins
    3 Wasteland

    //Mana (14):
    3 Polluted Delta
    3 Flooded Strand
    4 Tundra
    2 Island
    2 Plains

    //Total: 60

    I like playing a bit more win cons since going to time have been a problem for some other local landstill players in my area. My meta is mostly composed of Threshold, some 4c Landstill, some random agro and next to no combo.

    About the splashes I've considered black and green. Black for some more spot removal and plague/extirpate from sideboard as well as a singleton Planar Void to screw up ichorid and GY based decks with Enlightened Tutor.
    The green splash I have considered as well, with Life from the Loam, Garruk Wildspeaker and Krosan Grip for the sideboard. However, I think that Crucible is Loam superior in Landstill and Garruk and Grip is not worth the splash alone imo. Of course I get Natuko manland as well, but Hoofprints and Decree (mirror tech as well. Personal testing have also showed that Thresh have a hard time dealing with it) should be enough beside factories.

    Sideboard is unconsidered for now, but I imagine some number/configuration of Hydroblast, Seal of Cleansing and Tormod's Crypt with some silver bullets for Tutor like humility, CoP:Green, etc.

    Comments please?

    Regards
    - Mordenkain
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  14. #994
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    Re: [ATW] Landstill

    Quote Originally Posted by blac198990 View Post
    For you, I would deffinitly go with goyfstill just because you have been playing with threshold for so long, you will have more of the aggressive side to play goyfstill right.
    Exactly the reasoning I had in mind. Thanks for your advice, it is very appreciated (and thanks to all the others who answered, it's appreciated also :)).

    can't really help you out on the land hate, I deffinitly think the deck needs it but I am having a hard time finding slots for it
    What I meant is that 4c has obviously a harder time against mana-denial (but I guess Stifle on Wasteland helps a bit).

    Before making changes to a deck, I tend to test the hell out of a net-decked list and then modify it. Right now, my reference list (for 4c Landstill) is Antonino de Rosa's Worlds list. In your opinion, is there a more recent or 'better' list ? ('you' being directed at any reader).

  15. #995

    Re: [ATW] Landstill

    Quote Originally Posted by aTn View Post
    Exactly the reasoning I had in mind. Thanks for your advice, it is very appreciated (and thanks to all the others who answered, it's appreciated also :)).



    What I meant is that 4c has obviously a harder time against mana-denial (but I guess Stifle on Wasteland helps a bit).

    Before making changes to a deck, I tend to test the hell out of a net-decked list and then modify it. Right now, my reference list (for 4c Landstill) is Antonino de Rosa's Worlds list. In your opinion, is there a more recent or 'better' list ? ('you' being directed at any reader).
    ahhh well if you put it that way, the only true mana denial that hurts you is port. Wasteland is stopped with stifle and the fact that you run more land than every other deck(cept 42.dec), stuff such as pox and armaggedon and sinkhole, you just need to watch out for them and keep counters. But I also am adding needle into the board to stop port and dust bowl and such.

    Rosa's deck is a great deck to start with, his list is usually what people base their list on, the only thing I dont like with his list is adding wasteland lock, which I don't think is needed when ther are alot more powerful cards, but thats me I have played with crucible and loved it but since I have added goyf I have not wanted it(but as I said that is me,you should try it out for yourself thou.) here is my list which is really close to his but it is abusing the best planeswalker int eh game.(which the card is nutz in landstill)

    land:
    4 mishra's factory
    4 tropical island
    4 underground sea
    3 tundra
    4 flooded strand
    3 polluted delta
    1 breeding pool(only needed if you run garruk, if not I would prob add a basic)

    creature:
    4 tarmogoyf

    planeswalker:
    2 garruk wildspeaker

    draw:
    4 standstill
    4 brainstorm
    2 fact or fiction

    counter:
    4 force of will
    4 counterspell
    3 stifle

    removal:
    4 pernicious deed
    4 swords to plowshares
    2 engineered explosives

    sideboard:
    4 meddling mage
    4 extirpate
    2 engineered plague
    3 pithing needle
    2 any combination of krosan grip/engineered plague,needle, BEB matters on meta.(prob grip for countertop.)

  16. #996
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    Re: [ATW] Landstill

    Quote Originally Posted by mental
    The key to the goblins MU is to deal with Lackey/Vial. If you can do this, you'll have no problems.
    I can't agree with that.

    It is absolutely necessary to deal with both Lackey and Vial, that is correct. But just that won't win the game for you at all. You still have to have an answer for every single Ringleader they have while also being required to have massremoval for every Siege-Gang (Deed for 5?! Thank you). Plus you have to be able to play under manadenial. Add Hooligans in the Goblindeck in case you rely on either Explosives 1 on the draw or Crucible to get out of their manadenial and your matchup won't be good anymore.

    That said Landstill can indeed be tuned to have a good matchup against Goblins. This could be done by playing more Humilities, Goyfs and/or more basics (the basics aren't adviseable in 4-color obviously). I can't think of anything else maindeckable at the moment at all. However all of those cards have disadvantages as well. Humility is clunky with its 2WW-cost and Ports can keep you from the WW. Goyfs make their sorcery-speed removal more relevant (and I'd rather prepare for Warren Weirding in Goblins in the very near future) More Basiclands make it harder to reach both WW and UU. Sure, those cards do improve the Goblin-matchup, however I can't believe that the improvent turns the matchup from slightly negative to nearly unlosable.

    Quote Originally Posted by blac198990
    P. deed is always better than wrath in every matchup, there are soo many things that deed hit that wrath doesnt.
    It is not a good thing to use such a generalization under any circumstance (ever).

    Wrath can't be Needled, Stifled or Krosan gripped. Neither does it need another turn for you to ativate it. It just does it's job. Now. You can't quite compare two cards that are clearly the best at what they do (Damnation aside), when they do different things. Deed is more vulnerable than Wrath where Wrath is more narrow. I wouldn't go that far and say one is clearly better than the other.

    @aTn: I agree with blac here, if you are a Treshholdplayer, Landstill with Tarmogoyfs (I sure won't call it "Goyfstill") will suit you best as you should be able to switch between aggro and control when you have to. I personally don't like Goyfs in Landstill, but that shouldn't stop anyone else from using them.

    - Van

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    Re: [ATW] Landstill

    Quote Originally Posted by blac198990 View Post
    I have heard this deck does have a good matchup but from what your talking bout do you not run deed? if you do then this deck would have a great matchup against goblins, my 4c build has gone 7-0 matches, 14-1 in games and the one game I lost was because of triple port and I Had a low land hand. And you are perfectly correct, goyfs make the matchup soo easy, the card forces goblins to over extend then you just blow board, tehy lose 5 goblins you lose 1 goyf, very good odds.
    I run 4x Deed and 4x Innocent Blood (Which won't be in my list once I get Goyfs) and I crush Gobbos. Here's my list, for reference (once I get the Goyfs).

    4x Mishra's Factory
    4x Flooded Strand
    2x Polluted Delta
    3x Tropical Island
    3x Underground Sea
    3x Island
    3x Wasteland
    2x Academy Ruins
    1x Mutavault
    1x Faerie Conclave

    4x Tarmogoyf (4x Innocent Blood)

    4x Standstill
    4x Force of Will
    4x Counterspell
    4x Pernicious Deed
    4x Brainstorm
    2x Crucible of Worlds
    2x Engineered Explosives
    2x Smother (2x Garruk)
    2x Vedalken Shackles
    2x Fact or Fiction

    SB:
    4x Engineered Plague
    4x Leyline of the Void
    3x Krosan Grip
    4x Hydroblast

    I think that the loss of Innocent Blood will hurt the Goblin MU a bit but the it will still be extremely positive.

    This list has good MUs vs Threshold (though not Red Thresh with 4x Stifle/Waste), I go about 50/50 vs. TES (though I play TES myself so that helps me beat it). So I'm pretty happy with it.

    Personally I hate Ugbw Landstill. The deck seems so clunky and easily disrupted; it is much worse against any sort of deck with manadenial and is so much more reactive than landstill should be. It's very hard to slowroll people with Ugbw landstill, due to mana constraints. Ubg does nearly everything Ugbw landstill does with much more consistency.

    Quote Originally Posted by Van Phanel
    I can't agree with that.

    It is absolutely necessary to deal with both Lackey and Vial, that is correct. But just that won't win the game for you at all. You still have to have an answer for every single Ringleader they have while also being required to have massremoval for every Siege-Gang (Deed for 5?! Thank you). Plus you have to be able to play under manadenial. Add Hooligans in the Goblindeck in case you rely on either Explosives 1 on the draw or Crucible to get out of their manadenial and your matchup won't be good anymore.
    Deed at 5? Hell yes. By the time they play SGC, you can easily Deed at 5 if you've dealt with Lackey/Vial. You don't need to answer every Ringleader, just the threats they drop with it. Their manadenial is only effective the first few turns, but it won't mean much unless they have an active alternate mana source, such as Lackey/Vial (which you deal with). This MU is always positive.

    Quote Originally Posted by Van Phanel
    That said Landstill can indeed be tuned to have a good matchup against Goblins. This could be done by playing more Humilities, Goyfs and/or more basics (the basics aren't adviseable in 4-color obviously). I can't think of anything else maindeckable at the moment at all. However all of those cards have disadvantages as well. Humility is clunky with its 2WW-cost and Ports can keep you from the WW. Goyfs make their sorcery-speed removal more relevant (and I'd rather prepare for Warren Weirding in Goblins in the very near future) More Basiclands make it harder to reach both WW and UU. Sure, those cards do improve the Goblin-matchup, however I can't believe that the improvent turns the matchup from slightly negative to nearly unlosable.
    I didn't say it's unlosable, just positive. I did lose a good number of games when I couldn't stop Lackey/Vial. However, think about it: You have Shackles, Deed, EE, FoW, Counterspell, and Mishra's Factory as removal. You have an asston of Card Advantage. All your men are bigger. Postboard, you bring in 11 cards for them (Hydroblast, Grip, and Engineered Plague). You can easily outplay goblins. I would say that even untuned UBg landstill can fight gobbos, and go around 50/50.

    Also, about some of your other points: In a vacuum Deed is almost strictly better than Wrath because it can hit Counterbalance, Vial, etc. Sure it can be needled, but against an active Vial Wrath won't save you anyway.

  18. #998

    Re: [ATW] Landstill

    You are right. I myself make the difference between the Landstill variant with Pernicious Deed (UBGW or UBG or whatever) and the toolbox variant with Enlightened Tutors (UW or UWg). I tried to re-open a topic about the toolbox variant, because I didn't want to post my list here (it would be a parallel discussion and become messy). But.. that topic got a lock, because there already was a Landstill topic, this one.. So I'm afraid you'll have to post everything about any variant in this topic.

  19. #999
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    Re: [ATW] Landstill

    Quote Originally Posted by holkenborg View Post
    You are right. I myself make the difference between the Landstill variant with Pernicious Deed (UBGW or UBG or whatever) and the toolbox variant with Enlightened Tutors (UW or UWg). I tried to re-open a topic about the toolbox variant, because I didn't want to post my list here (it would be a parallel discussion and become messy). But.. that topic got a lock, because there already was a Landstill topic, this one.. So I'm afraid you'll have to post everything about any variant in this topic.
    The toolbox version had some dead cards meanwhile the non-toolbox version just has tons of multi purpose cards like Deed, EE, and Counters while draw just keeps finding them for you to keep winning attrition wars.

    The toolbox version has cards that can potentially win you the game right there since it can be the right answer but has worse combo match-ups unless it's Zvi's crazy landstill. The non-toolbox version can 50/50-65/35 MUs all over the place.

    Personally both are pretty viable and has some pros/cons to it. I still think Landstill of any form depends on the meta. If my metagame is Thresh and Goblin heavy, I'd go for the overall build. If it's a one-sided metagame without much variety, I'd go for Toolbox one.
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    Re: [ATW] Landstill

    Quote Originally Posted by Anti~American4621 View Post
    ... but has worse combo match-ups unless it's Zvi's crazy landstill.
    Sry, but what is so crazy about Zvi's list at the Worlds? Probably change "Eternal Dragon" against "Hoofprints".

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