Has anyone tried Garruk in a Landstill deck that isn't crazy? He seems incredibly good in the older 4c BHWC list, well because he's insane with a 4/4 first striking land. This is just an idea. The more man lands the better Garruk becomes, not to mention he fixes color requirements (WW for Wrath is an example).
It is ridiculous if you can find a slot. Wizards has broken the game (mainly in standard) by introducing planeswalkers. You can see this by how garruk interacts with pernicious deed and the fact that it can't be spot removed (yet, hopefully). It's first ability is the only one you should use really and it works really well with man lands. Lol @ the possibility of a 7/7 factory worker.Originally Posted by wastedlife
Yes. My list runs a 1/1 Garruk split between maindeck and sideboard. I'd post it, but I'm still testing him in different replacement slots at the moment.
It's worth noting that Garruk is an answer to these. And using the first two abilities in conjunction >> using just the first one.
wow, I missed alot of talk in 12 hours. first ill start off with mossivo. A couple of players are running with explosives, I myself like explosives in landstill, but where do you put it? it is worth taking out some kill for more removal? take out instant removal for more mass removal? or take out draw or counter??? the reason many people have not used it, is because there is not a slot for it and deed is way better.
next is chaos.... the first thing you should realize is that wasteland is not as prominant as is used to be because goblins in not the number one deck any more. there are alot more 3-4 color decks out there that dont have room(threshold, landstill, red aggro decks, combo) I feel that legacy has gotten big enough and since goblins abused wasteland soo much, many people have just learned how to play around it.
for the part about deed. there is still the little thing called a counterspell. only 2 decks usually main deck stifle, standstill and some threshold decks. and for pithing needle, it happens, your deck is still filled with many other things to use, plus how do you know hes going to choose deed. theres many things to choose from factory or monestary. if you make those 2 a threat early on, they r more willing to pithing needle those to save themselves.
lemuria if you actually play landstill then u suck at it. anyone who has played deed knows that it is still the best mass removal. you play blue for a reason.
galang. i agree with you on the wasteland part. if you like it but your gettin mana screwed add more land... but I dont agree what you said to nihil. I run 23-24 land in my deck and I never have any problems with not enough land. I only had one match where I had that problem last night at my tourny and everyone has one bad hand, thats why theres mullugan.
wastedlife... look up further and look at my list I posted. it has 2 in my deck, and if planeswalker didnt have legendary effect I would prob add more. the card is very good. the card is being tested by taco and me, and I have piloted it to very good results. and if you look at a couple of tacos last posts, he talks very highly of garruk.
and of course taco, your right about garruk, its nuts. as long as you have the four man to cast it, it instantly can become a 3/3 creature or 2 more mana. it actually won me 3 games last night that I would have surely lost. you should see a stax players face when i deed everything away and he laughs because he thought I just lost my advantage with garruk. then he called a judge (not really a judge because he didnt finish his testing, but he knows what hes doin)over because he thought deed removed garruk, then we resumed with me laughing at him as I won the game.
Last edited by blac198990; 01-03-2008 at 09:05 PM. Reason: saw an error that I didn't catch profreading
It isn't. Once you enter the attack phase, your opponent activates port, tapping your factory. You cannot use sorcery speed spells or abilities in the attack phase and therefore can't untap it to attack. You are still locked.
actually you didnt interpret his post right. he didn't mean he could untap his lands to attack with them. he ment it more that he can play tokens which can then attack and if he has ith, you just drop another token. he was commenting more towards the fact u said the first ability is the only use for it. that is why you are wrong. the second ability is used just as much or even more in my opinion.
Hello Blac! Nice to see that my rants are listened to lol.
To answer your question it all depends on the build of your landstill. I think as most people are moving towards deed and extripate we should look at the 4c LS model.
Before I go into any detail I do need to give credit to Wasteland as I tested landstill for close to 7 months before I found a list I was truly happy with. His list to me is perfect on most accounts. It's consistant, throws some real zing into the opponents gameplan. But generally its just fun to play and kicks alot of a.. That said the only difference between his list and the version I am running is I took out monastary and added Academy ruins. I just find ruins wins random games so easily based on recuring a crucible or EE that can break the game. Truly Ruins to me is an autoinclude with the combination of double crucible/ double EE. Monastary just seems kind of win less with T-Goyf and other things on the tables. I would like to note that I tested various builds especially on these forums and themanadrain.com - which sucks. Anyways I would like to also shout out to Tacosnape. His work on LS has been incredibly helpfull, and just generally more consistant than most others.
Anyways on with the explanation.
Draw:
4 brainstorm
4 standstill
2: open slot
Counter:
4 counterspell
4 Force of will
2: Open slot
Removal:
3-4 Pernicious deed
4 Swords to Plow
2-4: Open slot.
Lands:
Pretty sure 24 is the correct number for these types of builds, especially with the inclusion of eternal dragon.
Creatures:
1 Eternal Dragon
Win conditions:
2 Decree of Justice.
sb:
4 meddling mage
4 blue elemental blast
4 extirpate
3 Engineered Explosives
So without varying to much from typical builds I splashed alittle more towards white for consistency reasons. Mostly because I play a very similar version and it has been incredible for me outside of decks purely hating on LS.
The first thing we notice are the open slots in the drawing bracket. There are two of them and they usually consist of Fact or fiction. I believe this is a mistake for the curve but it's my own opinion and i'd rather not bring it up other then to just kind of hint at it. There are many different answers that people use and I really like Wastelands small cunning wish package. Which gives you answers in small doses and keeps games that can quickly run you out of the room, still sitting.
Moving on you will notice a basic outline of counters. Now the first 8 slots are just generally in 99% of LS builds so i'm just sticking with it. The other 2 slots usually differ between decks, some choosing to go with stifles/spell snare/ force spike combination. In the 4c versions of ls these slots are alittle more hardpressed and in my meta spell snare deffinately works better, but generally I would go with stifle. You might notice that the 2 and 3 c LS versions have more of a combination of the 2 cards sometimes spliting them 3-3 taking up a whopping six slots, but thats only because they give up alot of room in the removal section.
Removal to me is what seperates the versions of landstill. This is probobly the most important part of any deck and is why I have stretched the ranting into such detail. Of all the versions of landstill out there I find that the four colors seem to have the best advantage in that they have the most avalible to them "duh." Usually I find my decks wanting to run a bare minimum of 9 removal spells alot of it being mass removal because that tends to get you the most bang for your buck. In wastelands build he runs 3 deed 2 humility 2 explosives 4 swords, which may seem like overkill but alot of the times humility itself just wins games. Especially if you can get ahold of a wish and get pulse of the fields. It tends to happen frequently enough that I treasure every chance I get it online. The other side is that this combination allows for you to stop things like counter top back to basics and other shenanigans that normally end other build of ls because of a lack of the appropriate answers. As an example if your opponent casts a counterbalance you have a couple of different options. You can go with the wish for the disenchant effect out of sb or a fact or fiction to attempt to gain card advantage. You can try to deed it all away and maybe get alittle lucky against their counter top. You can engineered explosives it away similarly to the way you get rid of challice by adding the same colored or colorless mana to it and make it's casting cost higher then their disruption can handle. Or you can academy ruins it back if it gets countered. Or you can just counter it. Or you can fight through it which is viable because of the answers you hold. Often times its more difficult to fight through a counter top lock, which is why blowing it up or countering it is probobly the better option of the two. But you can fight through the soft lock and it's not as difficult as it may appear. The same goes for blood moon effects, back to basics, and other forms of disruption. Wasteland does kind of hoze you if your opponent can get it online, but I find that often times four color has enough avalible options to take care of these problems. In short Engineered explosives is an excellent add to the deck regardless of the situation as it strips the opponent of said creatures enchantments or artifacts, and it can recur which makes it uber powerfull if your in the attacking with mishra's factory phase of your landstill game.
Overall there are enough slots in LS to make it a very interchangable deck, but adding effects like disenchant or more spot removal I find to be not necessary. Even heavy splashing for black to me seems a bit risky as duress really isn't uber powerfull "worth splashing for, or thoughtseize for that matter." I guess the same would go for monastary. All these cards just seem, well meh compared to the answers you already have.
-mossivo1986
Joel Ferris
Edit: I didn't include the wishboard for wastelands list. I just made basic 4c still sb.
Edit: Tacosnape I do understand your argument for Life from the loam, but in testing i've never had the problems you had with crucible especially when i'm using academy ruins. I do agree with your theory but I do believe crucible must run in wastelands/ my version.
// Lands
1 [AQ] Mishra's Factory (1)
1 [AQ] Mishra's Factory (2)
1 [AQ] Mishra's Factory (3)
1 [AQ] Mishra's Factory (4)
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
1 [UNH] Plains
2 [ON] Polluted Delta
4 [B] Tundra
2 [B] Underground Sea
2 [B] Tropical Island
1 [B] Scrubland
1 [B] Savannah
1 [UNH] Island
1 [TE] Wasteland
1 [TSP] Academy Ruins
// Creatures
1 [SC] Eternal Dragon
// Spells
4 [AL] Force of Will
2 [JU] Cunning Wish
4 [IA] Swords to Plowshares
4 [IA] Brainstorm
2 [SC] Decree of Justice
4 [IA] Counterspell
2 [TE] Humility
2 [FD] Engineered Explosives
2 [FD] Crucible of Worlds
4 [OD] Standstill
3 [AP] Pernicious Deed
2 [DIS] Spell Snare
// Sideboard
SB: 1 [DS] Pulse of the Fields
SB: 1 [IN] Dismantling Blow
SB: 4 [PLC] Extirpate
SB: 1 [IN] Fact or Fiction
SB: 1 [FUT] Slaughter Pact
SB: 4 [PS] Meddling Mage
SB: 3 [UL] Engineered Plague
I don't think you read my post properly.....
I said they run a single copy of Crime/Punishment to avoid needle and stifle, in case they need another option of mass removal. I know that Deed is the best mass removal and I never said not to play, did I? On the contrary, I said that needles and counters WAS NOT reason enough to stop playing it. Learn how to read before you go flaming around!!
“THROUGH me you pass into the city of woe, through me you pass into eternal pain, Through me among the people lost for aye.
Justice the founder of my fabric moved, to rear me was the task of Power divine, Supremest Wisdom, and primeval Love.
Before me things create were none, save things Eternal, and eternal I endure.
All hope abandon, ye who enter here.” - Inferno
Oh. A really strange answer, but it could work. I prefer wasteland myself.
first to start off lemuria, your post had a question like you were confused. I'm sorry I can't see your face and tell that your joking around. next time be more clear on what you say.
now to mossivo, I like the post, those are more of the posts we need. I agree with you whole heardily on the explosives, I have played with the card many times and have never wished I didnt have it.
here is my list:
draw:
4 standstill
4 brainstorm
2 fact or fiction
removal:
4 pernicious deed
4 swords to plowshares
2 diabolic edict
counter:
4 force of will
4 counterspell
3 stifle
land:
4 underground sea
4 tropical island
3 tundra
3 flooded strand
3 polluted delta
4 mishra's factory
2 wastelands/nantuko monestary(still testing both to see which one I like better
creatures:
4 tarmogoyf
win conditions:
2 garruk wildspeaker
as you already pointed out the ls decks all have the 4 main cards force, brainstorm, standstill,counterspell. now you took your list towards the white side to get decree and dragon, my list is towards green, as i took out 2 of your removal spots and one land(which was a monestary to put in tarmogoyf and garruk) in which I have tested decks like yours and my personality as a person loves the little bit more aggro decks, but I love blue soo much I just decided to make landstill an control aggro deck. my deck actually wins very quickly, and since I have played this deck I have only run out of time for rounds once( which is signifigently lower) I feel that my list has put landstill to a different step to making landstill the top tier deck. I have used this list in 4 tournys now and all four I have split for first(only because it is usually about 2 in the morning when finals start and most of us want to play EDH by then so we just split.) at my shop, my deck is feared just as much as threshold.
now if anyone out there reading this post is more of a strong control person, go with mossivo's list, which is a very control build, but if any of your are more like me and like to be aggro, try mine, it does very well.
oh and mossivo, right now I'm testing taking out the 2 edicts and puting in explosives, the testing has been very good to me soo far.
the funny things is, I have actually won a match with only a gurruk in play because of stax and wasteland lock, I had to untap their land to do it but I did and won the match.
A lot of you guys seem to like Garruk even though he is kind of hard to cast.
I have been playing Landstill for some years now, and I always loved Humility as a 4cc bomb wich is almost as hard to cast as Garruk.
Garruk has 2 bid advantages over Humility:
1. It is harder to remove.
2. It provides a kill condition, which makes it possible to drop nantuko monasterys and maybe the whole white splash.
But if you are sure that you will stick to the 4 colour version AND play nantuko monasterys you have to ask yourself in what kind of matchups you really want to have a Garruk in play over a Humility.
My meta is full of Thresh,Fish,Deadguy Ale,Goblins,Cephalid Breakfast and a few survival decks and this is where Humility shines most and these are the matchups where I would always want to drop a Humility instead of a Garruk.
Garruk is definetely better in the mirrow and a bit better against all sorts of combo decks, because he provides a faster kill, but if you reach turn 4 you should be able to win this game anyway.
Please test Humility before you throw it out of the window, even if you have to drop the Tarmogoyf Plan you will have a card that generates such an insane card advantage. It's always fun to see a single Mishra's factory holding off a whole army of 1/1 Tarmogoyfs and Darkconfidants.
@ Tacosnape you once suggested to play a single Quagnoth in the SB to have a real bomb in the mirrow, would you think that a single Garruk would be better?
Almost forgot. Yeah this is a big problem, especially under wasteland attack.
the one thing about humility that I dont like is the fact that teh games take way way way way to long, not the fact that the cards slows the game, but because every 2 turns the judge is pulled over for rulling, and since the opponant is gonna want a judges ruling over yours, it becomes a pain in the ass, plus if your at a local tourny without a judge, who do you go by for a call when half the world thinks one way but the other thinks different. the card is to annoying to explain. and the easiest way to explain it is to tell them to shut up and dont play the card. now that I got that out of the way, the first reason I dont like humility is for the fact that it does cost 2 white. to move to this I would have to take out garruk and goyf for it to work, which takes me back to running old style factory and monestary. old style wasnt enough to win games to make it in my local meta. not with soo many threshold, red aggro, and combo. humility in my opinion is just to counterproductive to what many decks run, such as deed, why run deed if they creatures arnt big? why run removal just to waste on a 1/1 when I would rather have a kill. garruk, usually costs only 2 cuz of first ability and it gives me creatures bigger than many creatures in teh meta. also there are many rogue white decks out there that will have an answer to it, and destroy your strategy, and many decks that have black and green with deed.A lot of you guys seem to like Garruk even though he is kind of hard to cast.
I have been playing Landstill for some years now, and I always loved Humility as a 4cc bomb wich is almost as hard to cast as Garruk.
Garruk has 2 bid advantages over Humility:
1. It is harder to remove.
2. It provides a kill condition, which makes it possible to drop nantuko monasterys and maybe the whole white splash.
But if you are sure that you will stick to the 4 colour version AND play nantuko monasterys you have to ask yourself in what kind of matchups you really want to have a Garruk in play over a Humility.
My meta is full of Thresh,Fish,Deadguy Ale,Goblins,Cephalid Breakfast and a few survival decks and this is where Humility shines most and these are the matchups where I would always want to drop a Humility instead of a Garruk.
Garruk is definetely better in the mirrow and a bit better against all sorts of combo decks, because he provides a faster kill, but if you reach turn 4 you should be able to win this game anyway.
Please test Humility before you throw it out of the window, even if you have to drop the Tarmogoyf Plan you will have a card that generates such an insane card advantage. It's always fun to see a single Mishra's factory holding off a whole army of 1/1 Tarmogoyfs and Darkconfidants
@ Tacosnape you once suggested to play a single Quagnoth in the SB to have a real bomb in the mirrow, would you think that a single Garruk would be better?
garruk = win game
2 tarmogoyfs = usually win game
humility = stalls game untill they have more creatures than you and overrun. stalling doesnt win games, just ties.
This post is a shining example of the kind of thing to avoid in the DTB forum. Please find and use a shift key, and run your post through a spell check before you post it. If you want your opinions taken seriously, present them like you wear big boy pants. Verbal warning. Fix it. ~ Nightmare
Blac is correct. Mazes and Ports are solved by making countless hordes of Trained Armodons.
Finding a balance between Garruk's two abilities is crucial, and knowing when to play one versus the other is a huge key to success.
Yes. Garruk >> Quagnoth. I found after awhile that, due to the fact that I (wisely) keep my Fact or Fiction count in the deck high, that I rarely lose to control decks except when they manage to get rid of my kill conditions, usually via Extirpate or Haunting Echoes. As decks that use these cards generally rely on Deed, STP, Vindicate, and Discard, I found Quagnoth to be pretty strong. However, Deed killed it sometimes, and Edicts ate it for breakfast. Garruk Wildspeaker was a fair tradeoff, being immune to Deed, STP, and Edict, despite being vulnerable to Vindicate and Discard. However, as Garruk's at his worst in my opening hand and his best when I find him via a topdeck or a Fact or Fiction, the discard became a very minor issue.
You can't draw a comparison between the cards, Garruk can untap two lands as soon as it's cast, so it's a bomb that doesn't turn off your counter wall. If you're playing UBG, Garruk is easier to cast than Humility thanks to Treetop Village. I'm not certain what the reasoning is for 4c Landstill at the moment, Swords is replaceable and Monastery is overrated, I've lost a lot of games to Wasteland for no tangible benefits.A lot of you guys seem to like Garruk even though he is kind of hard to cast.
I have been playing Landstill for some years now, and I always loved Humility as a 4cc bomb wich is almost as hard to cast as Garruk.
Garruk has 2 bid advantages over Humility:
1. It is harder to remove.
2. It provides a kill condition, which makes it possible to drop nantuko monasterys and maybe the whole white splash.
But if you are sure that you will stick to the 4 colour version AND play nantuko monasterys you have to ask yourself in what kind of matchups you really want to have a Garruk in play over a Humility.
My meta is full of Thresh,Fish,Deadguy Ale,Goblins,Cephalid Breakfast and a few survival decks and this is where Humility shines most and these are the matchups where I would always want to drop a Humility instead of a Garruk.
Garruk is definetely better in the mirrow and a bit better against all sorts of combo decks, because he provides a faster kill, but if you reach turn 4 you should be able to win this game anyway.
Please test Humility before you throw it out of the window, even if you have to drop the Tarmogoyf Plan you will have a card that generates such an insane card advantage. It's always fun to see a single Mishra's factory holding off a whole army of 1/1 Tarmogoyfs and Darkconfidants
@ Tacosnape you once suggested to play a single Quagnoth in the SB to have a real bomb in the mirrow, would you think that a single Garruk would be better?
Garruk is an insane card, and I think he's going to be a defining card in the archetype. Humility is a good card, but post board it has Krosan Grip written all over it.
Swords is replacable only by inferior cards. The same can be said for Meddling Mage in sideboard. And Monestary's pretty solid.
However, I do agree that UBG is the strongest non-4C choice right now, thanks in large part to Garruk Wildspeaker.
I don't think non Swords to Plowshares removal is inferior, at least not completely inferior, Innocent Blood deals with 'Goose where Swords to Plowshares doesn't for instance.
I'm not a fan of Meddling Mage, you can replace him with Null Rod or Chalice of the Void as an anti combo card and improve bad match ups like Affinity or Burn at the same time.
You also get Wasteland back, which makes Stifle so much better.
More food for thought:
What about a singleton Tolaria West in the non-4c builds?
It can easily replace one of the 2 Wastelands as I've always found them near to useless wihtout Crucible of Worlds (and you can transmute for a Wasteland if need be in the lategame or with a CoW on the table).
Now, what are the advantages of playing it over a Wasteland?
- It's a blue mana source
- It fetches Engineered Explosives
- It fetches Academy Ruins if you already have an Explosives (its just that strong) or in the mirror to recur Crucible of Worlds
- In really odd situations it can also fetch a Mishra's Factory or help you out of a colorscrew
I'm aware that transmuting for 3 mana is quite expensive but as a midgame card I find this to be very strong.
Here's the list I'm playing it in:
Keep in mind that going overboard with a toolbox (Maze of Ith, The Tabernacle at Pendrel Vale etc.) would dilute the deck too much as you really need your land-drops to produce mana.Code://// UWb Cunning Landstill /// Mainboard (60 cards) // Lands 4 Flooded Strand 2 Polluted Delta 4 Tundra 2 Underground Sea 1 Scrubland 2 Plains 2 Island 1 Tolaria West 1 Academy Ruins 1 Wasteland 4 Mishra's Factory // Creatures 1 Eternal Dragon // Spells 4 Brainstorm 4 Standstill 3 Cunning Wish 4 Counterspell 4 Force of Will 4 Swords to Plowshares 3 Wrath of God 2 Humility 3 Engineered Explosives 2 Decree of Justice 2 Crucible of Worlds /// Sideboard (15 cards) 4 Meddling Mage 4 Engineered Plague 4 Extirpate 1 Slaughter Pact 1 Pulse of the Fields 1 Return to Dust
Comments? Ideas?
Edit: Tolaria West would also be pretty sexy in a 3color build playing green... the synergy with Life from the Loam is just too great in the mid- lategame.
I don't like this. If I'm not playing 4c, then making colourless mana is far, far less of a drawback than coming into play tapped. I often use all of my mana up to turn 4 or so.
YOU'RE GIVING ME A TIME MACHINE IN ORDER TO TREAT MY SLEEP DISORDER.
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