The reason I don't find the ability to hide cards important is because MUC is a deck built on redundancy. Board control, card draw, and countermagic make up the general frame of this deck, and if one piece is taken from your hand with say a Duress or Thoughtseize, there will always be more on its way. You might even have more in your hand. However, for me at least, it all comes down to whether or not you're willing to risk not being able to shuffle after a Brainstorm and how much you consider that a negative.
The two sides to that coin are very diverse, and are probably a matter of experience, but almost every time I've ever Brainstormed in this deck and not been able to shuffle afterwards I've gone on to lose the game because of the huge tempo and fluidity loss that has almost always accompanied that. As such, I highly dislike Brainstorm in MUC in general, and never include it in my own builds.
TeKo, your list is more or less my list with Ancestral Vision replaced by Chalice of the Void. While I do agree with the majority of your card choices, I think some kind of card draw in addition to Fact or Fiction is very important in some form or another. Thirst For Knowledge might work for you because you have 11 artifacts to discard to it, or perhaps Think Twice if you don't like TfK, but that would be my major qualm with your list.
Originally Posted by Jaiminho
I dont know what i can cut for 3 TfK, maybe 1 Impule, 1 FoF, X?
No one-line posts in the LMF. Maybe experiment for yourself and let us know what works for you. - Bardo
Kadaj -
While I agree that one of MUC's strongest points is redundancy, and that I will most likely acquire another (insert bomb spell here) in the near future, that does very little to address the fact that my opponent, without me Brainstorming, knows the likely sequence of events for the next 2-3 turns. This is bad. Although Brainstorm does not completely hide what I'm able to do (like you mentioned, I might be holding 2x answers when he Thoughtseizes), it certainly helps in hiding key pieces of information about my response availability.
Also, yes, our deck is redundant and I'll draw into that Force of Will he Duressed soon, that doesn't help the fact that he now knows that he's pretty much free to cast (insert bomb card here) in the next turn (barring me topdecking another Force of Will).
IMO, the ability to hide key cards (and the overall hand structure and response availability) is great. The fact I can dig 3 deep at Instant speed for U is nice, although admittedly, if I draw into junk, that might be a gamebreaker. But if it doesn't draw into junk, then I'm in a good position.
Basically, in my eyes, I'm getting 2 positives (hide cards/info + dig into key pieces with a possible shuffle effect) at the cost of 1 negative (dig into junk cards with no way to shuffle).
I would like to hear how well your testing w/ Ancestral Visions has been working mid-late game, or if you're in a early-mid topdeck/must-find-answer-right-now situation.
Hi guys,
I never posted here, but I've read a lot of the stuff and decided to get my hands dirty as well. I'll post my list and improved list and my point of view on some issues. Even though some of them might already have been discussed or aren't discussed at this time, I'm just throwing it out there for you to get a feel of what I think of the deck. Sounds good?
I top 8ed with MUC a couple of weeks ago in a local tournament (30ish people). I decided to try MUC out a couple of days before that and must say I'm really impressed with it.
First of all, my list (put together after I read the forum)
22 Island
3 Chrome Mox
2 Morphling
1 Meloku
4 FoW
4 Counterspell
4 Spell Snare
3 Impulse
3 Ancestral Vision
4 Fact or Fiction
3 Powder Keg
3 Propaganda
2 Back to Basics
2 Vedalken Shackles
SB
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Blue Elemental Blast
3 Hydroblast
2 Echoing Truth
1 Vedalken Shackles
1 Propaganda
1 Back to Basics
Ronde 1: BR Dragonstorm 2-1, 1-0
Ronde 2: Rw Goblins 2-0, 2-0
Ronde 3: Mono G Land-D 2-0, 3-0
Ronde 4: UGR Threshold 1-1, 3-0-1
Ronde 5: UGBW Landstill 0-2, 3-1-1
Ronde 6: UG Threshold 2-0, 4-1-1
Quarter: Mono B Weenie 1-2
What I think about the cards:
The mana:
Currently I play 25 manasources (12 Island, 8 fetch, 1 Plains, 1 Swamp, 3 Mox). I've seen a lot of lists on here that run 20-23 manasources. Isn't that a bit on the low side? Even with 25 I'm sometimes shy for land, and I don't think that is something you want to do with this deck.
I switched to playing fetchland (along with Brainstorm and EE, more on that later), because I wanted to try that out. There are some times you randomly draw a basic Plains at the wrong time, but those are negligable. I am still not sure whether I like it or not.
I am also still not sure about the Moxen. I actually don't like them that much in the deck, because there are a lot of games when they just sit in my hand and do nothing and should be an Island instead. On the other hand, I feel they are an necessary evil sometimes and hand you wins in the form of T2 B2B, T3 Propaganda on the draw against an Affinity/Goblins explosion, where I would've lost if I had to wait an extra turn. I'd like to cut 1, but I don't think running 2 is worth it, so for now they stay at 3, because they win more than they lose atm.
The kill:
Three is about agreed on, right? Most people play 2 Morphling, 1 Meloku. Sadly I don't own 2 Morphling (not that they are THAT expensive), so I decided to try some other creatures before buying that 2nd. I figured I wanted a creature against Deeds and Innocent Bloods, so I tried out Rainbow Efreet and fell in love with it. I really like the fact it can take any hit and live to tell about it. That, and it is really hard to remove it, just like Morphling.
Then some people started questioning Meloku and I figured, what the hey, I'll switch her out as well (for the record, I like Meloku myself). At the moment I'm trying Guile. Guile is virtually unblockable and makes sure (except for STP) that you never run out of winconditions. Guile is expensive though, and cannot block flyers. Maybe the Meloku finds its way back, or maybe I'll go with 2 Morphling, 1 Rainbow Efreet.
The counters:
I'm not going to discuss 4 Force, 4 Counterspell. I play 4 Spell Snare at the moment, for its ability to counter some of the best threats (Tarmogoyf, Counterbalance, Dark Confidant, Jitte, Hymn to Tourach) in the format turn 2 on the draw AND, unlike Force Spike, later in the game. I haven't tried out that many other counterspells, because I kinda like these. I did try 2 Disrupting Shoal, which were pretty decent, and 1 less Spell Snare, which is probably enough. I think 12-13 counters is about all you need with all the boardcontrol you pack. Rune Snag seems interesting, but like I said, haven't tried it yet. Force Spike seems a bit narrow (narrower that Spell Snare)
The draw:
I think this is one of the most discussed topics here, is it? Brainstorm versus Impulse. I played Impulse at the tournament, but switched to Brainstorm after to try it out. Although I thought I wouldn't, and was telling everybody at the tournament that, 'no, Impulse is better in this deck', I actually kinda like Brainstorm. I do play 8 fetch with it to make sure I have a shuffle effect when I need it (and to have consistent acces to off-colour basics when I want them, but not before). The thing I like most about Brainstorm is something I haven't seen argumented before here; it costs only 1 mana. Not so you can cast it turn 1, but so you can cast it turn 2 with Spell Snare mana up, or T3 with counter mana up. I often had to Counterspell (actual card) something turn 3, while I had Impulse in my hand. I had to make a decision between digging and countering, and we all know that sometimes you don't have a choice. I think Impulse and Brainstorm are somewhat off the same powerlevel in this deck. At least they both fullfill the same purpose. The fact that Brainstorm costs just 1 and Impulse 2, and I think running fetchland without Brainstorm is just stupid, I run Brainstorm for the moment.
Ancestral Vision is insane. So is Fact or Fiction. People don't seem to like Vision that much, thinking it is dead slow and useless in the mid-late game. Sure, it's best on turn 1-2, but this whole deck is designed to spend all its resources to push the other deck in lategame, where MUC usually is best. What more could you want from a card than that you can pay for it when you have a spare mana, lets you spend your hand on making sure you're not dying and refills it a couple of turns later? I think that even mid-lategame it's still really good and that most of the time you can afford waiting a couple of turns.
I tried out AK and Think Twice for a bit (like Tao suggested), but came back from that decision. It just didn't do enough for me. I had some better cardquality, but it never felt like it gave me the edge I so sorely needed. 1 or 2 resolved Visions or FoFs will just win you the game.
The Utility:
I'm a bit undecided about this, because my testing isn't that extensive yet. I kinda liked Powder Keg and didn't feel the need to try out Engineered Explosives. When I tried out Tao's list (AK, TT, EE, Brainstorm, fetch), I found I really liked the fact you can play it for 2 and sac it immediately. Plus, it can destroy enchanments *cough* counterbalance *cough* (which can probably also be annoying when you have to sac it for 3, but that hasn't come up yet). The downside is that you have to run non-Island lands, but I think it's worth it.
Back to Basics is at the moment a 3-off in my list, because it's insanely good against the decks it's good against and in which you need it to win. No discussion there I guess.
Vedalken Shackles is a 3-off as well for now, because I tended to win when I got double Shackles (well, actually even when I got 1), so I upped it. This was also because I cut Propaganda from the main.
Propaganda is really good maindeck, as there are aalmost no decks where it's completely dead. Even against Landstill it makes them tap 4 lands if they want to attack with a Factory and against Belcher/TES ETW tokens look a bit dumb. But, although it isn't a dead card, often it didn't do that much. For example, against Landstill, Back to Basics and Vedalken Shackles also do a good Moat impression against man-lands. Against ETW tokens, Powder Keg or EE would do the same. Against Threshold Back to Basics and Shackles are also better. So I'm trying them out of the board now, for they are only really good against the most aggressive decks. Which, paradoxally (word?), is a bad matchup for MUC....so I'm not entirely sure yet.
The sideboard:
Lets get Chalice out there first. I'm completely in the blue with this card. I like it, but I hate it at the same time. First of all I want to make clear that you don't need Chalice to win against Threshold. Spell Snare is just better. Against Burn there are better cards as well (Chill, Blasts). That leaves combo as the type of deck where Chalice should be good against. I haven't played against combo decks yet with MUC (well, Dragonstorm, where Chalice did win me the last game). Chalice 0 should be very good against a lot of fast combo, so maybe you want that. Chalice 1 doesn't seem that much better (and a turn slower) than Stifle against combo. Not that Stifle is the end-all here, but Stifle could have other uses (against Threshold fetching basics? probably win-more...Landstill with Deeds and fetching basics?...). To make a long story short, I don't know if Chalice will improve my combo match-up that much to warrant a place in my sideboard? For now it's out, because I'm running Brainstorm AND Spell Snare, which is kind of a non-bo.
Chill/Blasts are next in line. I played 6 Blasts, which is a good plan against Lackey and generally good against Goblins. Against Burn it destroys men and counters burn (especially Fireblast, which Chalice doesn't). Chill is better against burn, but worse against Goblins. But with Propaganda, Shackles, Back to Basics (I like B2B against Goblins) and Keg/EE (for the Vial) Chill could be a major problem for Goblins as well.
Stifle, like I said above seems good, but I haven't tested it out.
Echoing Truth/Repeal also seem quite good against aggro, with Echoing Truth being good against ETW and Myr Enforcer as well, while Repeal is better against cheap stuff and Counterbalance.
I think you need the 4th Back to Basics, 4th Keg/EE and a 3rd (maybe 4th if you play 3 main) Shackles in your sideboard, because they are your bombs.
For reference, my current list:
12 Island
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
1 Plains
1 Swamp
3 Chrome Mox
1 Morphling
1 Rainbow Efreet
1 Guile
4 Force of Will
4 Counterspell
4 Spell Snare
4 Brainstorm
4 Fact or Fiction
3 Ancestral Vision
3 Back to Basics
3 Engineered Explosives
3 Vedalken Shackles
SB (more of a guideline I guess, I have no clue on this yet..)
4 Propaganda
4 Stifle
4 Chill/Blast
1 Shackles
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Back to Basics
So, this is how I came to my current configuration. Most of it is based on limited testing, 1 tournament and speculation. Like I said, I really like the deck and think it has a lot of untapped potential. But, like with The Rock (ext) your metagame is very important and finding 'the perfect list' seems really hard.
Wow, this is getting out of hand.... I'm curious what you all think, and am looking forward to testing this deck more and discussing it.
-J
Thoughts:
Chrome Mox takes up land slots. 25 mana sources is quite exorbitant; I can get away with 23 thanks to Ancestral Visions (I stick to 24 anyway. No need to take risks, right?)
I hate the EE "tech" and stick to Powder Keg. This deck is ridiculously blue mana hungry with Morphling/Rainbow Efreet, draw spells, and Counterspell. It is slower, but in turn doesn't cause you to rely on fetches, or put pressure on your mana base.
I find that, with the current meta (I mean GLOBAL meta at this point) that the 12 counter setup of 4 CSpell, 4 FoW, and 4 SS is ideal.
Visions is amazing, especially early on, so I would recommend a 4th one at all times. Because of the power of fetches to reduce a SPECIFIC resource, Ancestral Visions has a higher chance of handing you good stuff, making it better than Brainstorm in his deck overall. With, or without, fetches, Ancestral Visions trumps Brainstorm in MUC.
SB:
This is the nightmarish place. You can get a basic idea of "optimal" maindecks, but because of the massive amount of answers blue, and therefore MUC, has to such a variety of situations makes it hard to decide which ones to use. This is pretty much meta dependent, but I can recommend a few generally good ones:
Stifle: Cheap and effective. Great vs Combo, especially if they bait out a Force of Will. As a side note, using this vs Fetch lands is DUMB. You do not have the tempo to take advantage of the Ld, nor do you have more LD to keep the pressure up. Don't do it unless you have to or stand to gain a lot by it.
Chill: This is not great vs Burn, but it is all you really have. However, it is great vs Red-Aggro in general, because you can sweep their creatures away and counter critical burn/creatures.
Forbid: Really adds inevitability vs other Control. You can keep countering their important spells as long as you can keep visions up to fuel Forbid.
Tormod's Crypt: Currently Blue's best grave hate, as many decks now require as much of their graveyard to be taken at once as possible.
Team Multi-Grain - We're wholesome.
Have people tried a mana denial thing? Propaganda, Tabernacle, Stifle, Wasteland, Port, and B2B. Well, maybe not Port with B2B, but it seems alright. Has anyone tried this?
Cait Sith -
But Ancestral Visions and Brainstorm fulfill two unique roles in MUC; they don't compete for the same function. Especially with reliable shuffle effects, I do not see how Ancestral Visions > Brainstorm. I don't see why they can't co-exist.
Ancestral Visions is purely a raw draw spell, nothing more. It cannot filter, it cannot hide cards/info, it cannot be played in response, however, it's quite good at what it does (undercosted raw draw), but is narrow in scope.
Brainstorm is not considered a true draw spell (due to card parity), but rather is used to filter your hand in the pivotal early game (if combined with a shuffle effect, then it really shines), to hide cards/info at pivotal moments (hide a gamebreaking bomb from getting Duressed), and to potentially find an answer in response to your opponent's bomb at that particular moment.
If you're suggesting that Ancestral Visions replace Brainstorm, then what do you use, aside from 3-4x Impulse (which has a 2cc btw), to ensure that within the first 3 turns (before Ancestral Visions gets online), you have the appropriate land/answers/response?
@ Cait Sith: Do you play Chrome Mox in your 24 sources? I think I'll try out the 4th Ancestral, instead of the 22nd land. I don't feel comfortable dropping to 23 sources.
I guess Powder Keg/EE is a personal preference, like Brainstorm/Impulse, but for now I like the immediate effect of EE. The strain on the manabase isn't that big in my testing, but sure, there are times the off-colors are a bit sketchy. And that's only when you draw them. I almost never fetch for them unless I have to, or have a lot of blue sources already available.
I never considered Forbid a good sideboard card, but now that you mention it, it sounds really good. Most control decks don't pack this much counters and even as extra counter it should be really good.
Is your most recent list somewhere in the last pages? If not, would you like to post it or PM it to me?
@ Jak: Running Wastes and Ports sounds afwul with B2B. Wasteland and Tabernacle each cost a landdrop and Tabernacle doesn't even produce mana. Like Cait Sith said: MUC is really blue-hungry, so running that many colorless sources shouldn't be that good. I guess it could be good, but you get a whole different deck.
Last edited by JvV; 11-27-2007 at 08:20 AM.
-J
See Caith_Sith's post above for the reason why this doesn't work. Unless you completely lock them out of the entire game, you can't effectively capitalize on the mana denial plan.
Just throwing it out there: Ponder finds early lands better than Brainstorm. I don't recommend it for the deck though, being Sorcery speed and all.
I am gonna throw this out there:
My name has no h in it. You should know better Lego.
Now, on topic:
Brainstorm is just not that great in MUC. You need a shuffle effect or the card becomes weak because you don't have any way to push past the cards you put back on top. There is no "really shines" with a shuffle when in comes to Brainstorm in MUC, there is only "actually does something relevant." It cannot filter in MUC without shuffles.
Which brings me to the second point on Brainstorm. Kadaj said this before, but I will reiterate it here: Your deck is incredibly redundant. All you have to do is counter and keg your way to the mid game where you can use Ancestral Visions and Fact or Fiction or resupply/dig.
The only situation where it can truly outshine Ancestral Visions is where you quickly need to dig for a response. However, as the window where this ability of Brainstorm's is actually relevant is rather small (pretty much 2nd and 3rd turns only, and only if they drop a dangerous bomb, like Nimble Mongoose, or try to combo out) it is just not large enough a justification to run Brainstorm at all, let alone have more of it than Ancestral Visions.
On my own build: I run 4 Visions and 4 Fact or Fiction; I run neither Impulse nor Brainstorm. Propaganda is a big force for ensuring I can survive into the late game.
On Chrome Mox:
All 24 of my mana sources are lands. Although having the acceleration is nice, the biggest problem that MUC commonly has to deal with is that the (sometimes vast) majority of its removal can only generate card parity. This is pretty much suicidal for a Control deck, as it means it does not have inevitability. MUC supplements this with powerful draw spells and adding Chrome Mox ultimately taxes them more.
My current list:
// Lands
24 [PT] Island (4)
// Creatures
1 [US] Morphling
1 [CHK] Meloku the Clouded Mirror
1 [VI] Rainbow Efreet
1 [LRW] Guile
// Spells
3 [FD] Vedalken Shackles
3 [UD] Powder Keg
4 [U] Counterspell
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [IN] Fact or Fiction
3 [US] Back to Basics
4 [DIS] Spell Snare
3 [TE] Propaganda
4 [TSP] Ancestral Vision
// Sideboard
SB: 1 [UD] Powder Keg
SB: 1 [TE] Propaganda
SB: 4 [TSB] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 3 [DS] Echoing Truth
SB: 4 [SC] Stifle
SB: 2 [EX] Forbid
Team Multi-Grain - We're wholesome.
Cait Sith -
I do not see how your deck does well against 4c Landstill, nor do I see how you live versus UBW Fish. Please list your strategies. I'm curious as to how you beat 4c Landstill, especially post-board.
EDIT: To expound, 4c Landstill is vulnerable to B2B, YES, but they also pack tons of disruption, maindeck Disenchant, ways around your Keg, don't really care about early-mid game Propaganda, and has the best board-clearer in Magic.
Also, for the UWB Fish matchup... How do you live? They pack even more disruption (spells and creatures), is vulnerable to B2B (but what deck aside from MUC, Goblins, and Solidarity isn't?), they don't really care about early game Propaganda, as their creatures are primarily there for the built-in effects, and pack tons of maindeck hate for you already.
Beating 4c Landstill is easy. You drop B2B and win the game. Seriously, it is that simple. Even your creature removal like Keg and Shackles isn't dead because it forces them not to attack. Very few, if any, 4c builds pack Disenchant main, they might have Deed, but that's infinitely easier to deal with than Disenchant is.
UWB Fish is extremely rare at tournaments these days, so it's not exactly the most relevant matchup, but shackles really hurts them, and Propaganda, while not immensely effective, does slow them down enough to establish Shackles, Keg, and B2B. It's not exactly the easiest matchup ever conceived by man, but it's far from the autoloss you've envisioned.
As much as I dislike Ancestral Vision in theory, I've been giving it a chance lately. I've noticed Vision can be amazing turns 1-2. Anything after is questionable, due to the suspend cost. It's not hard draw like Fact or Fiction that can be cast and have an immediate effect. I've had a lot of issues needing an answer or a counter with Visions suspended and wishing it was Brainstorm/Impulse. A lot of decks apply too much pressure or fit in a bomb when you require that Counter or draw / search to find the redundant spells to handle such situations. Personally I don't think the pro's outweigh the con's to make this card suitable for this style deck.
I agree with everything in this paragraph but the first line. Brainstorm is great in MUC. It is much weaker (almost unplayable) without shuffling effects, but this isn't a deck that has issues fitting shuffling effects in. Brainstorm would give you the same options that Ancestral Vision would, at instant speed. Brainstorm's draw back can be cumbersome when you stack the top of your library with non-answers, but I don't feel this drawback is enough to discount the card.
In an environment like today's, even redundant decks have issues finding and maintaining answers. With all the great control / anti-control options available, relying on your deck being redundant isn't always viable. Countering your way to the mid-game is too late half of the time. Thoughtseize + Duress is rampant everywhere. Holding onto the Keg to take care of threat's is not as easy as it used to be. Brainstorm gives you the option of concealing sweapers like Keg or Propaganda to protect them for when they can be cast.
I think if you are going to compare these two cards you have to do it more subjectively. Against combo, dangerous bombs, or extremely quick aggro combined with disruption, you are going to require an answer quick. Those type of decks will out-resource you early on and you probably will not even get to see turn 4-5 to reap the benefits of Vision, and if you do your answers will be too late. In this format the state of the game is going to be decided in the first 4 turns. I don't follow your reasoning as to why Brainstorm only being relevant in those turns is substantial, I find it the greatest benefit of the card. Brainstorm is an immediate action. You will get to see the next 3 cards, choose the best ones, and use them to handle the state of the game immediately. The most investment of turns it will cost you is 2 from the cards replaced compared to 3 suspended turns.
I think that's the major distinction that has to be made here. You don't play, nor build, MUC the way I do. My version of MUC invests heavily in speed and early to midgame answers, and often finds itself running out of gas in the late game. That style of play is absolutely perfect for Ancestral Vision, because you can play it early, and then reap the rewards later when it becomes later. I have found, in my extensive testing of the card, that even when I suspend it on turns 4-5 or so, it's still very very effective.Personally I don't think the pro's outweigh the con's to make this card suitable for this style deck.
In your version, Jander, you play like a more classic, or traditional variant of MUC, relying on using simple 1 for 1s to maintain board parity and then eventually burying someone with a threat like Meloku or Morphling.
The two versions, or styles, don't play that differently in the end, but the variance between them seems to be the difference between Ancestral Vision being amazing and being mediocre. However, as far as Brainstorm goes, I have found the card consistently underwhelming, and even weak, in every variant of MUC I've ever tested, and that includes both Tao's and Jander's builds, which I have taken some fairly decent looks at in testing. At this point, I wouldn't be surprised if my past experiences are clouding my judgment of Brainstorm here, but I also wouldn't be surprised if preconceptions about Brainstorm's effectiveness are influencing other's opinions on the card's place in MUC.
In all of my testing, Brainstorm's best has been nowhere near the upside it provides in other decks, precisely because of the redudancy that this deck builds its foundation on. Impulse serves a far better role, digging for specific cards farther down into the deck and not requiring a shuffle effect to make it not suck.
Ancestral Vision might make you wait 4 turns for its effect, but it doesn't actively cost you turns like Brainstorm does when you don't have a shuffle effect. I don't like playing more than 6 shuffle effects (read: fetchlands) in MUC because the lifeloss does eventually add up against more dedicated aggro matchups, which are perilous enough as it is. Ancestral Vision's effect is also strong enough that it's worth the 4 turn wait, which Brainstorm's effect is not if you Brainstorm into garbage and cause yourself 2 turns of useless topdecks.
From my testing and in all honesty, the most dangerous thing that Landstill can throw at you is Extirpate. If they don't have it in their sideboard then you are going to beat them pretty badly. You can probably side in Stifle or Crypt against most of those decks just to get rid of the really bad cards like Propaganda.
However, once Extirpate gets involved it isn't so easy anymore. They can begin to attack your card draw (FoF, Visions, TfK, whatever) which is so vital to your success. They can get rid of your B2B plan entirely. Heck, once they Extirpate you, they don't need to actually swing to kill you - you'll have less cards in your deck than your opponent will have.
Unfortunately, MUC doesn't have an answer to Extirpate (unless you're willing to splash for Extirpate). That means that you have to pray that it doesn't show up in your matches. :(
I hope that this makes some sense. :)
WHAT? No, just no.
Perhaps I have far more Fish-esque and Landstill decks in my meta, but most 4c Landstill decks do run maindeck Disenchant (see Nick Trudeau's slightly dated version he took to Worlds), and in theory, you are correct, drop B2B and win the game. But that's almost as clear as me saying, "I need to gain control of the game, then I win". Duh. Most decks pack TWO maindeck B2B. Most games, you will be burning draw spells to find it, among other things, so just dropping one, unopposed, isn't exactly easy. Landstill packs almost as many counters as us, and has access to off-color pro-active hate as well (Duress, etc).
I think you vastly are underestimating Landstill, especially 4c, with the mentality of "drop B2B, win game".
Re: UWB Fish. In your meta, perhaps Fish is rare. In mine, that definitely not the case. If you are comfortable with your Propaganda's essentially doing nothing against their Mage's and Confidant's, two of their most valued utility creatures that rape us, that's okay. Also, if I'm a Fish player, and I have a field of creatures out, a couple pieces of armor, and I'm looking at your Propaganda and you searching for answers to regain control, I've won. Imo, you need to test against Fish and the 100 variations more.
We are approaching MUC fundamentally different, so any further debate is useless. It's interesting to see a different approach though; your points are well taken.
For Kadaj, Cait Sith and the others who dislike Brainstorm: Let's say I want to play Engineered Explosives instead of Keg. I need fetchland to support that. Woulnd't you still not play Brainstorm even if you have the, let's say, 6 fetchland avaidable in your deck which are in for a different purpose?
"Part of me belives that Barrin taught me meditation simply to shut me up."
-Ertai, wizard adept
http://solidarityprimer.proboards85.com/index.cgi
Unless you're playing 8 fetchlands, then no I would not run Brainstorm.
Anyway, as far as 4c Landstill goes, I have tested the matchup extensively, and by extensively I mean 30+ games, and the matchup basically comes down to the old adage: In control on control, the deck with more blue wins (And if neither deck has blue the deck with most colors wins). 4c Landstill is a good control deck and an exceedingly poor aggro deck in this matchup, considering you have more counters, more draw, and more relevant answers then they do (Swords to Plowshares is effectively dead in this matchup, whereas Keg and Shackles actually do slow down, or completely halt, manland beatdown), which forces them to play the aggro role.
I have never seen a single variant of 4c Landstill in my area (CT and the northeast) with a maindeck disenchant variant of any kind beyond Deed itself, nor have I seen one recently with Duress in the main. Most builds run 8 counters. You run at least 12. They have 4 cards that increase their hand size. You have 7 or 8 (if you run Ancestral Vision). They have AT LEAST 4 dead cards. You have none. None of the above facts bode well for Landstill in this matchup, especially postboard when MUC gains access to more B2B and more counters to make the matchup even more lopsided.
The matchup basically comes down to being able to completely ignore most of Landstill's control cards and having more draw, and sometimes filtering, than they do. B2B is a card that often wins the game, but I've beaten Landstill multiple times in the past without it.
As far as UWB Fish goes, I readily admit I haven't tested it a whole lot, nor am I really all that interested in testing it. No deck in Legacy is going to have perfect matchups against everything, and I'm more than willing to accept a potentially somewhat weak matchup against a deck that's non-existent in my metagame.
Hey there everyone. In my ever enduring quest to abuse the hell out of Counterbalance Top I am growing less and less happy with treshholds capacites to do the combo justice. My main problem is that I cannot find a setup which will allow me to run both 3 and 4 CC spells and additional counterspells to basically lock up the game completly. Also I feel like the dec does not run enough land to support the combo ideally. Another constraint is the aggro control nature of the dec and the pure control mode one enters when resolving both combo parts.
So looking for a suiteable shell to implement the combo I kept thinking of an MUC build.
I am fully aware that CBtop does not really belong in the lists that people are discussing here since the combo itself basically replaces the plan of 'draw more answers than your opponent has questions'. But much rather I would like to know if anyone here has ever considered the inclusion or actually tested it or what speaks against it in this type of dec?
I tested CounterTop in MUC for a while.
CounterTop has many issues. One being it requires a minimum of 6 slots from the deck. That is very hard to adjust the deck to accomodate this. MUC is a very tight list and has no room to really adjust for so many dedicated slots. Another completely different build would have to be tampered with to use CounterTop.
CounterTop doesn't really fit the modus operandi of MUC. It's much more suited for aggro-control where you are actually putting pressure on the opponent. I've noticed even with the CounterTop combo in play, I still wasn't realiably able to lock down the opponent, because they are still casting their threats, which I often need "real" answers for that CounterTop can't handle.
CounterTop takes up the first few turns, which are the most important for MUC to stay afloat. Spending early resources getting CounterTop online, can cause you the game without realizing it. Tapping out turn 2-3 to play Counterbalance when you should be saving your mana for Counterspell, Spell Snare, Force Spike, etc.. can be detrimental. Holding onto it for any later in the game is somewhat useless. There is not an ideal time to cast Counterbalance in this deck.
It does have some positives. Against combo decks where they have a very low mana curve, it can be good. Against decks like Enchantress it can do well. It's just not a reliable option to run in this type of deck. If you are going to run a two card combo, it may as well be a win condition instead of trying to lock the opponent down. The positives don't outweigh the clunkiness in my eyes.
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